NSA spying on US citizens

My name is URL

Surprised there hasn't been a thread on this already.

Good timeline of events on the EFF website for anyone interested in learning more about it.

https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline

Al Gore calling it 'obscenely outrageous'

www.cnn.com/2013/06/05/politics/nsa-verizon-records/index.html

Predictable response by the usual cranks - 'It's called protecting America'

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/dianne-feinstein-on-nsa-its-called-protecting-america-92340.html

I'll preempt the whole 'if you have nothing to hide then why worry about it?' argument and link to a very interesting paper which outlines why that argument carries no weight in matters of personal privacy

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=998565

faustino1

I'm not really surprised about it at all. It's news to most people but It only confirms what some suspected for years. With that much information available, it seems reasonable to me, the government would want access to it. The notion governments would act lawfully to obtain it is laughable really.

These companies setup "free" services and that should be an immediate red flag to most people because rarely is anything provided for free. Even if the provider sticks advertisements in your view while using their "free" service, they're being rewarded for collecting and building a profile of you.

Google and Facebook are, at least in my own opinion, data mining operations on behalf of US intelligence community. They probably didn't start out that way, but I'm sure that's how they ended up today.

The concern I have is, as more and more data is collected, it becomes problematic in securing it from access by individuals unaffiliated with government and I would suspect staff in these companies also have access to the same data the government has....

thiarfearr

faustino1 wrote: »

I'm not really surprised about it at all. It's news to most people but It only confirms what some suspected for years.

I don't think many are surprised? Most people I know browse the internet at least vaguely aware that unless you go to specific lengths to hide what you're doing it can be traced, its just most people aren't worried enough to change their browsing habits.

Its not really new either, back at the turn of the millennium, the EU investigated the ECHELON network

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

Reflects badly on the companies involved though, although I doubt it will have much effect on the browsing habits of the vast majority of internet users

My name is URL

thiarfearr wrote: »

I don't think many are surprised? Most people I know browse the internet at least vaguely aware that unless you go to specific lengths to hide what you're doing it can be traced, its just most people aren't worried enough to change their browsing habits.

Its not really new either, back at the turn of the millennium, the EU investigated the ECHELON network

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

Reflects badly on the companies involved though, although I doubt it will have much effect on the browsing habits of the vast majority of internet users

It's more about the ethical side of it though. Obviously the fact that the forces that be track and monitor people is nothing new or unexpected. What's shocking about this is the underhanded, nefarious and probably illegal way in which companies kowtowed to secret government demands, while at the same time denying it publicly.

How lawmakers, conglomerates and elected representatives conspire to not only mislead the public but to infringe upon their rights as consumers, citizens and individuals.

It's nothing new, but a month ago anyone raising concern about such things was labelled a fruitcake.. a paranoid idiot, or whatever else. So the breaking of, and confirmation of it all is big big news.

stuar

I'm not one bit surprised or shocked, well maybe the fact it's now confirmed and acknowledged maybe is the most surprising.
A couple of years ago a founder of "The Safest/Private Internet browser", can't remember the name of it, but he had some kind of falling out with the company and went public that the FBI had a backdoor in the system, allowing them access to anything/everything browsed with the browser, so if they were the safest, what about the other big names, explorer, chrome, Firefox etc,

I believe what they admit is only the tip of the iceberg, infact I believe that many of us have a voluntary big brother monitored CCTV and listening device system in our homes, in our laptops and computers, easily accessed by the powers that be, maybe also in our smartphones.

briany

I'm really surprised that this thread has not exploded. Where's the outrage amongst the CTers? 4 responses plus mine. Maybe they've all gone off grid? What alternatives are we looking at? TOR? FreeNet? I2P? sneakernet? VPN? HTTPS everywhere?

Camrat

It really doesn't bother me. The NSA, CIA, DoD, DHS, GCHQ, MI5, MI6, I could go on. They have been listening for years. They don't give two f**ks about regular people. They don't care who your calling or texting. Unless of course your contacting someone who has been tagged or flagged as someone of interest. If it keeps us safe....Is it not worth it?

In my opinion i'd say all communication around the world is monitored, Calls, Internet browsing, texts, Emails, Facebook all screened for intelligence. If i was a betting man i'd say social networking site's, search engine's and most ISP around the world are owned by intelligence gathering groups.

Sterno

So what's the concern?... unless, as Camrat said, you are doing something seriously wrong, they couldn't care less. Are you concerned you spoke to your dealer online about buying drugs... that don't care. This is for big, and I mean massive things.... I mean look, have you ever heard of paedophiles ever being picked up due to google searches or who they friended on facebook? No. And if that's to small then the only reason to be concerned is if you are really bad.

As far as how they get the info, if hackers of 18 yrs old can break into secure banks, multi nationals etc, do you not think the US govt could do this without blinking if they wanted.

Tar.Aldarion

Nothing new, sure people know about this for decades, I see a piece on this every year or two. Nice infographics this time though. Sure even employees of the agencies always say this happens.

Wacker The Attacker

What type of info was targeted?

thiarfearr

Sterno wrote: »

So what's the concern?... unless, as Camrat said, you are doing something seriously wrong, they couldn't care less. Are you concerned you spoke to your dealer online about buying drugs... that don't care. This is for big, and I mean massive things.... I mean look, have you ever heard of paedophiles ever being picked up due to google searches or who they friended on facebook? No. And if that's to small then the only reason to be concerned is if you are really bad.

As far as how they get the info, if hackers of 18 yrs old can break into secure banks, multi nationals etc, do you not think the US govt could do this without blinking if they wanted.

Malicious employees? Data leaks?

My name is URL

Interview with the source of the NSA leaks - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/nsa-secret-surveillance-lawmakers-live

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Nothing new, sure people know about this for decades, I see a piece on this every year or two. Nice infographics this time though

The theories, of which there have been many over the years; have always been officially denied before now. So yes, it is new.. insofar as it is no longer just a theory.

Sure even employees of the agencies always say this happens.

Source? I highly doubt that many, if indeed any, agency employee would just come out and contradict the official line of their paymasters. Perhaps a few former employees have spoken about it, but even then they have been discredited and labled as disgruntled, or just called crackpots by insiders.

Camrat

My name is URL wrote: »

Interview with the source of the NSA leaks - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/nsa-secret-surveillance-lawmakers-live



The theories, of which there have been many over the years; have always been officially denied before now. So yes, it is new.. insofar as it is no longer just a theory.



Source? I highly doubt that many, if indeed any, agency employee would just come out and contradict the official line of their paymasters. Perhaps a few former employees have spoken about it, but even then they have been discredited and labled as disgruntled, or just called crackpots by insiders.

His name is Ed showdon, He has been hiding out in hong kong.

Sourse
http://qz.com/92511/we-hack-everyone-everywhere-what-nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-reveals-about-the-agencys-activities-abroad/

Autonomous Cowherd

The man responsible for one of the most significant leaks in US political history is Edward Snowden, a 29-year-old former technical assistant for the CIA and current employee of the defence contractor Booz Allen Hamilton. Snowden has been working at the National Security Agency for the past four years as an employee of various outside contractors, including Booz Allen and Dell.
The Guardian, after interviewing him over several days, is revealing his identity at his request. From the moment he decided to disclose numerous top secret documents to the public, he was determined not to opt for the protection of anonymity. “I have no intention of hiding who I am because I know I have done nothing wrong,” he declared.
Snowden will go down in history as one of America’s most consequential whistleblowers, alongside Daniel Ellsberg and Bradley Manning. He is responsible for handing over material from one of the world’s most secretive organisations, the NSA.
In a note accompanying the first set of documents he provided, he wrote: “I understand that I will be made to suffer for my actions”, but “I will be satisfied if the federation of secret law, unequal pardon and irresistible executive powers that rule the world that I love are revealed even for an instant”.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/profile-who-is-edward-snowden-1.1423210


Personally, i think the distinct possibility that this man, if extradicted from Hong Kong - which is quite likely - will be prosecuted and serve an extremely lengthy jail term - possibly the rest of his life - is blooming disgraceful...given that what he sought to do was make transparent what should be transparent in the first place. If you (as in a government) are going to monitor the communications of your citizens, and indeed the citizenry of other countries, then at least be up front about it. If the purpose is to detect Terrorism, it will detect it regardless of whether or not it is public information. But otherwise, working covertly as they have been, is subversion of democracy. Hokay..Rant Off

Autonomous Cowherd

Statement from the International Modern Media Institute in Iceland...

9. June 2013 // For immediate release

Over the last few days we at the International Modern Media Institute have watched alongside the rest of the world as the US government’s enormous encroachments on privacy and information security have been exposed in the media. These exposures have verified our greatest fears about the state of global intelligence gathering, and yet again highlighted the need for strong privacy protections and government transparency.

Tonight the identity of Edward Snowden, the brave whistleblower who exposed these clandestine projects for monitoring the world’s population, was revealed in an interview, where it was implied that he has an interest in seeking asylum in Iceland. Whereas IMMI is based in Iceland, and has worked on protections of privacy, furtherance of government transparency, and the protection of whistleblowers, we feel it is our duty to offer to assist and advise Mr. Snowden to the greatest of our ability.

We are currently attempting to get in touch with Mr. Snowden to confirm that this is his will and discuss the details of his asylum request. Our next step will be to assess the security implications of asylum, as it is possible that Iceland may not be the best location, depending on various questions regarding the legal framework - all of these issues will be taken into account. We are already working on detailing the legal protocols required to apply for asylum, and will over the course of the week be seeking a meeting with the newly appointed interior minister of Iceland, Mrs. Hanna Birna Kristjánsdóttir, to discuss whether an asylum request can be processed in a swift manner, should such an application be made.

In due course we will release further statements as useful and necessary.



Contact:


Birgitta Jónsdóttir
Chairman of the Board


Jonsdottir is an Icelandic MP.

gctest50

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Statement from the International Modern Media Institute in Iceland...

Tonight the identity of Edward Snowden, the brave whistleblower.

His is a traitor, no bravery involved there.

Camrat

gctest50 wrote: »

His is a traitor, no bravery involved there.

I disagree i think he is brave for standing up for what he believe in....We should all take a page out of his book. The world would be a better place for it.

My name is URL

gctest50 wrote: »

His is a traitor, no bravery involved there.

Aung San Suu Kyi was considered a traitor too.. as were many other human rights defenders throughout history. Are none of them to be seen as 'brave' either just because they illegally spoke out against their own governments abuses?

Grandpa Hassan

Camrat wrote: »

It really doesn't bother me. The NSA, CIA, DoD, DHS, GCHQ, MI5, MI6, I could go on. They have been listening for years. They don't give two f**ks about regular people. They don't care who your calling or texting. Unless of course your contacting someone who has been tagged or flagged as someone of interest. If it keeps us safe....Is it not worth it?

Yup, if anyone wants to waste their time listening to me, they should feel free. I'm really not that interesting!

gctest50

http://www.boozallen.com/media-center/press-releases/48399320/statement-reports-leaked-information-060913

"Booz Allen can confirm that Edward Snowden, 29, has been an employee of our firm for less than 3 months, assigned to a team in Hawaii."

Wikipedia ( i know, I know.... ):

"In May 2013, Snowden was granted temporary leave from his work as a contractor for the NSA in Hawaii, on the pretext of receiving treatment for his epilepsy"

Maybe he had a stroke or similar sort of thing, seems like it can change your personality a little bit :


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17703018

briany

Couple of interesting links if any of ye are interested in upping your privacy. Maybe you're already using some or you don't think they're that effective but I thought I'd post them anyway.

http://prism-break.org/

https://tails.boum.org/about/index.en.html

My name is URL

Great post on this issue by Bruce Schneier.

Knowing how the government spies on us is important. Not only because so much of it is illegal -- or, to be as charitable as possible, based on novel interpretations of the law -- but because we have a right to know.

Democracy requires an informed citizenry in order to function properly, and transparency and accountability are essential parts of that. That means knowing what our government is doing to us, in our name. That means knowing that the government is operating within the constraints of the law. Otherwise, we're living in a police state.

We need whistle-blowers.

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/06/government_secr.html

SeantheMan

gctest50 wrote: »

His is a traitor, no bravery involved there.

Are you stupid ? Anyone who speaks up or stands up against the oppressive US government is a traitor ? The US needs more traitors then tbh

Camrat

SeantheMan wrote: »

Are you stupid ? Anyone who speaks up or stands up against the oppressive US government is a traitor ? The US needs more traitors then tbh

I can imagine bells and alarms sounding in langley (home of the CIA) after that post.....I'd say some geek in the CIA is rifling through your HDD at this minute

:eek:Just in case.........I LOVE America. America rules:eek:

Be like Nutella

Ed Snowden is an absolute Hero.

Evidence points to the fact that the NSA's entire anti-terrorism efforts have, at best, detected and thwarted, only 1 single attack on US soil since 9/11. That is directly from a member of the Congressional Intelligence committee responsible for NSA oversight.
This would logically imply that the giant privacy killing monster which the NSA has evolved into, is utter overreach and is in fact an entirely unbalanced disproportionate response to the actual threats the US faces in reality....

ORRRR... that in fact the NSA is NOT all about stopping terrorist attacks on US soil at all and is and has always been about something much larger and much more expansive than any BS non existent Global War On Terror. The NSA, Echelon, the whole signals intelligence gathering program involving New Zealand, Canada, Britain and others has always been about something much more defensively important than bloody terrorism or crime or any other BS you're being told now on TV. Most people are missing the point (not here but in the public and media).

It's about hegemonic dominance in a global system since the Cold War ended. This is an American world end of story and will be so into the foreseeable future no matter what China crap you hear. America has only one possible emerging military adversary in the next 50 years - China - clearly. Nobody else has a breeze of a chance at matching their military spend, advancement or economic success except China. China will definitely over take the GDP of the US economy 100% sure and certain. But it will be a long long time before China develops anything like the US military might we see before us now. The facts to support that statement are irrefutable and very easily presented if you like. China will not under any circumstances represent any sort of military challenge to the US military in the global system in any sort of predictable time frame and certainly not out to 40-50 years and that's entirely predictable.

So... what's the point of all that crap? well very simply, the US economy will be beaten by China's - guaranteed. Ok so the US can't do anything about that, but that doesn't mean that the US can't continue it's global military dominance far into the future. That dominance extends into all facets of offense and defense and covers as we know everything from lasers to fancy boats to cyber warfare and even possibly space based weapons further down the line. Intelligence means something very different than it used to back in the god old cold war days. Fir instance take Iran - the US had a decent network of spies and assets of various types in Iran up to 2005... as many experts/writers have divulged... Google it... but then what happened? a laptop was lost/stolen... and the entire network was burned literally 100% of what they had on the ground in Iran died in an instant. In fact this greatly impacted the whole nuclear Iran stuff...it's actually one of the reasons there's so much conflicting logic in the Iran Nuclear debate - they lost their HumInt - it happens - but it just demonstrates in this case how easily electronic data can be your Achilles heel and how much the world relies on it now. Point being, you gotta catch ALL the data you can now - all those bits zipping around the world between every country and in every type of communication, the internet... all of it.... that you can ! and that's the issue - THEY CAN !

For the first time in history a country (in this case the most powerful by far) can build facilities which have the actual capability to basically record all human comms on earth - EVERYTHING.... not simply sat based comms and telex messages like Echelon focused on (and then became totally outdated, even before that EU report was finished) but the actual hard lines which carry all of the Internet and all of our mobile comms around the world now. Every Gmail and hotmail, MSN message, home phone, mobile phone etc etc etc etc EVERYTHING - THAT IS THE ACHIEVABLE GOAL NOW. Bluffdale is the first of many 3 billion dollar 'DATA CENTERS' capable of collecting and crunching Yotabytes of global communication data to be built using a black budget in the US. When you take a few minutes to understand the breadth of the famous Wired Article which started all of this recent interest before Snowden Heroically became Big Brother's worst nightmare about the Bluffdale facility written by James Bamford who has been doing brilliant journalistic work on this entire subject for 20+ years before all of these recent 'shocking revelations' you quickly realize that the scale of this data collection is truly global and needs to be stopped. It's about the US protecting its hegemonic position in the world - it's illegal, it's undemocratic it's scary as hell and it affects the world as we know it and yes they've been doing it on some level for more than 50 years we all know that but now we know it for fact - GOOGLE, FACEBOOK, MICROSOFT, MOBILE PHONE COMPANIES AND ANY CORPORATION WHICH MAKES LOGICAL SENSE IS THEIR B1TCH! THAT'S WHAT WE KNOW NOW.

Snowden just stuck it out there in peoples faces and forced us all to talk about it and mentally process it which is the best possible outcome of all this - THAT WE AS A SOCIETY THINK ABOUT THIS OUTSIDE OF FORUMS LIKE THIS ONE. And it's working !

All that budget, all those facilities, all those revolving door contractors like Booze Allen Hamilton (whom many here will know of in depth before this recent stuff)..... ALLL OF IT will be scrutinized by hundreds of journalists, most of whom didn't give two sh1ts about this stuff before last week. The NSA is under a microscope they did NOT want to be under and their future is now at risk. Congressmen are all growing a set of balls and starting to stand up and ask questions previously they didn't give a sh1t about. Everybody is making everybody else brave enough to ask and debate this whole messed up big brother situation.

Why is it like this?

How did it get like this?

How much privacy do we now know we have or don't have?

Is it worth losing alll our privacies? what for exactly and don't tell me fukin terrorists coz that's a crock of sh1t and we all know that at this point !

You don't take away the privacies of 310 million people to attempt to stop a couple of small scale terrorist attacks per decade carried out by small time lone wolf crack pots which you probably can't stop anyway.... it's not proportionate or logical and it's is not why the NSA exists or is growing - IT IS HOWEVER -- HOWWW the NSA grew its infrastructure in recent years - as everyone knows 9/11 gave everyone Carte Blanche - they took full advantage even though they knew full well it wasn't about protecting the US from AQ or any other inflated boogeymen -

It was about secretly constructing the worlds greatest information collecting machine with the ability to collect, store and process the worlds communications. And before this guy stood up and did what was right and what was human and best for the world as a whole - they were well on their way to succeeding in achieving that goal.

So time to take off the tinfoil hats and ask yourself the slightly more boring, deeper question of 'WHO' is the 'WHO behind all this? Because until you know that - there's no stopping or slowing this process of Big Brotherfication by the NSA and their associated agencies in the US and its global allies.

Edward Snowden will be either heralded as THE MAN who stopped this process in its tracks or just be another misunderstood warning in history. All logic and experience points to the latter unfortunately, but I HOPE for the former.

Alex Jones and the likes make all this just more difficult for people like Snowden who simply want the average man to understand what has been going on behind the backs of their democratically elected governments. You hear Jones shout incoherently about it a year ago and it sullies every word out of Snowden's mouth before he even says it even though it's fact.

It's all down to the media now and please don't tell me BS about the entire worlds media being somehow controlled by Disney or somesh1t like that. This stuff is conspiracy FACT not THEORY and deserves realistic debate.

I can back up anything I said here, just ask before launching abuse.

catallus

This guy is no hero; at best he's an attention-seeker who used a position of trust to gain temporary notoriety, most probably on a vainglorious whim. At worst he is a traitor to his country.

I'm no fan of the United States/Kingdom/Nations Military-Industrial Complex, they probably spread more misery and death around the world than anyone; but for this guy to claim that domestic collection of data by the government upsets him is a shallow facade for what is most likely a juvenile attempt at fame, the equivalent of the latest celebrity sex-tape.

You want privacy? Turn off your computer. Fall off the grid. Don't get all faux-outraged over stuff you can't control.

Camrat

Dude this is beautiful............

catallus

This guy is no hero; at best he's an attention-seeker who used a position of trust to gain temporary notoriety, most probably on a vainglorious whim. At worst he is a traitor to his country.

I'm no fan of the United States/Kingdom/Nations Military-Industrial Complex, they probably spread more misery and death around the world than anyone; but for this guy to claim that domestic collection of data by the government upsets him is a shallow facade for what is most likely a juvenile attempt at fame, the equivalent of the latest celebrity sex-tape.

You want privacy? Turn off your computer. Fall off the grid. Don't get all faux-outraged over stuff you can't control.

Be like Nutella

ya know.... I can understand your view point I actually can. But I think your viewpoint about being faux-outraged depends on some things. IF ALL of the data collected by the NSA was never ever going to be seen or used for any purpose ever 100% guaranteed except to stop a terrorist attack that was imminently likely such as of the nature of 9/11 then I would say - ok fair enough if we're under attack constantly by a massive global AQ who are permanently trying to inflict further 9.11's or worse upon the US then fine, but it just isn't like that. 9/11 was planned from start to finish by KSM... who's now off the field (and half brain dead thanks to being tortured half to death in that freedom loving country).... he was THE big attack mastermind - he planned nearly all the big ones and when he was off the field the big ones almost stopped entirely. Point being - the threat of further 9/11 type attacks is simply not imminent. What's more, the trust I would be putting with 50,000+ employees of the intelligence agencies and their contractors etc etc in holding and processing my personal comm data is not deserved as of now and therefore not forthcoming - do you understand what I'm trying to say? The Intelligence agencies have been busted doing horrible illegal things many many times over the decades and have not earned the trust of the people to go through their personal communications data willy nilly as they please.

What's that quote again?... Benjamin Franklin 1775

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

My name is URL

catallus wrote: »

You want privacy? Turn off your computer. Fall off the grid. Don't get all faux-outraged over stuff you can't control.

'You want privacy? Stay indoors, close the curtains, hide under the bed. Don't expect your rights to be protected if you have the audacity to venture out into the world'

If you have no problem with governments having illegal access to your e-mails, phone-calls etc, then you either live a very dull life and don't actually correspond with anyone, or you're just totally weak minded and incapable of protecting or standing up for your own rights.

ryanrickoshea

I'm not entirely convinced he is a hero, perhaps a useful asset.

There's something very strange about the fact he's only 29 years old, was a contractor and had access to classified information.

What's more bizarre about this story is that Obama is being held responsible for NSA activities when the programs Snowden documented have been in place since 2001.

Be like Nutella

catallus wrote: »

Don't get all faux-outraged over stuff you can't control.

you see first off I take offense to the faux-outraged comment but that's your perspective fair enough. Secondly you seem to be saying we can't control anything like this and so therefore stop caring about it like it's as sure as life and death.... well you're wrong.... couldn't disagree more. Seemingly unstoppable Power can be opposed by people. Recent history shows us this. There is also a rising discontent with the US government. I'm not talking about Obama or Bush or whoever - I mean the whole structure. More and more smart people are talking about the military budget, the CIA, the drones, the NSA etc etc.. the internet allows stories and leaks to go global in hours so the media has more power than it ever had. I worked in a bank years ago and had the opportunity to take it down if I had leaked something I knew at the time - I didn't but the point is all I had to was put a USB key in an envelope and pop inn a post box and BOOM that was it.... so the NSA is sh1tting it over this so called 'attention seeker' and will do everything they can to get hold of him and get him behind bars and neutralize the data he did give to the two newspapers. That doesn't sound like something WE CAN'T CONTROL DOES IT? This clearly is going to have major impacts on policy, budget, programs, facilities, oversight etc etc etc... so who says people can't oppose great power - ONE GUY STOOD UP and just did - he's a HERO ! He risked his own freedom to attempt to protect the future freedoms of people everywhere. It was a massively heroic action and I couldn't disagree with you more... not that you even attempted to support you opinion mind you.

Be like Nutella

ryanrickoshea wrote: »

I'm not entirely convinced he is a hero, perhaps a useful asset.

too far fetched for me but still not impossible

[QUOTE=What's more bizarre about this story is that Obama is being held responsible for NSA activities when the programs Snowden documented have been in place since 2001.[/QUOTE]

100% agree

catallus

Obama is the POTUS, of course he's going to take heat for organisational scandals. Maybe Snowden is a decoy asset, who knows?

What strikes me as odd that people get outraged at the breach of presumed "rights" and "freedoms" which exist largely in their own ideas of how the world works.

Anyone who understands how electronic information dissemination works knows that the second you hit the send button then it is practically in the public domain.

A lot of people froth a the mouth over the mundane fact that agencies exist that have access to this info.

As has been said earlier on this thread the spooks arent interested in normal citizens lives. There may be abstract arguments for the total secrecy of private life but it's a dream; we may as well be talking about flying cars powered by rainbows.

ryanrickoshea

You'd have to wonder why Snowden got so much attention in the mainstream media when William Binney, an Ex-NSA mathematician and cryptanalyst for over 30 years had been talking about this for so many years.

Why all of a sudden is Snowden's revelation so popular among the mainstream media?

Not to mention the fact these programs were in place since 2001.
Why is Obama now being singled out as the man responsible?

I'm not fan of Obama, just seems to stink.

Be like Nutella

catallus wrote: »

largely in their own ideas of how the world works.

not true
the world doesn't need the NSA to collect everyones emails and search through them to work.
The fact is, that when the NSA or its precursor began a long time ago the target was enemy communications - a big bad German or Russian enemy. The world was a simpler place and nobody argued or would argue that their work was not noble then.
But now we talk over the internet and on our mobile phones and we deserve that these conversations remain as private as we want. That's freedom and there is no current threat in the world which demands that we sacrifice that freedom of privacy. So why allow them to take it from us?

There is no rationalizing this NSA data collection.

Support your points... why are they collecting all our emails and phone calls and social media data?

What is the threat?

Why is it worth sacrificing our privacy?

I'm interested in the other viewpoint I genuinely am...answer my q's if you can please.

catallus

Maybe it is a very blunt PR job to distract from the Manning trial? Poor Manning is a very isolated young man who was obviously way out of his depth and is now being nailed to the wall for his not very consequential mistakes.

Just saw your post Nutella: If you don't want your conversations and texts and search data to be out there then don't put it out there: it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to protect your privacy; NOBODY offered you full freedom to have your words and actions remain totally private.

Emails and calls and social media data are collected because that's how interconnectivity works; data is stored in one place and transferred elsewhere. If a government agency wants access it gets its warrant and accesses it. There is no mystery here.

The threats are many! The point was made here that if an attack or whatever happened and the powers that be were seen to have had the wherewithal to stop it through intelligence gathering and they failed to do so, well, who'd be blamed?

Our privacy is limited at the best of times.

Be like Nutella

catallus wrote: »

for his not very consequential mistakes.

ok well that's a ridiculous comment. Wikileaks have in a very complex and expansive way affected so many things across the globe in so many different countries. You could start and successfully run 5 newspapers and 500 journalists with the stories within wikileaks over the next decade or more.

By the actions of Manning and Snowden - we at least have a chance to counter the unstoppable force you refer to.

catallus

Be like Nutella wrote: »

ok well that's a ridiculous comment. Wikileaks have in a very complex and expansive way affected so many things across the globe in so many different countries. You could start and successfully run 5 newspapers and 500 journalists with the stories within wikileaks over the next decade or more.

By the actions of Manning and Snowden - we at least have a chance to counter the unstoppable force you refer to.

The effect of Wikileaks has run through the body-politic with about as much effect as weak beer.

Probably the worst and most malignant effect of Bradley Manning's association with Wikileaks and the media outlets behind them is that the powers that be have tightened up their shít.

To say they had any real effect on the US/K/N military expansion is sycophantic belly-rubbing.

And I really don't think another 5 sub-DailyMail gossip rags publishing so called "stories" found in the Wikileaks clusterfúck is what we need.

ryanrickoshea

wikileaks are shyte, Julian Assange is another dupe

ryanrickoshea

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuET0kpHoyM

Why does Snowden get so much attention when William Binney has been talking about this for YEARS.

briany

It's not about a right to privacy, it's about a right not to tell people what you're doing. If you post your bio to FB and document every waking moment with Twitter, live webcam feed and blogs, that's on you. If governments and other 3rd parties are listening to you through your phone, watching you through it's camera without any kind of prior consent or agreement, that is on them. If I decide to do all my computing through TAILS and communicate in a special cypher that only myself and two of my closest friends know, that doesn't necessarily imply I've anything to hide. Maybe I just don't feel like telling you what I'm doing.

MonaPizza

Camrat wrote: »

It really doesn't bother me. The NSA, CIA, DoD, DHS, GCHQ, MI5, MI6, I could go on. They have been listening for years. They don't give two f**ks about regular people. They don't care who your calling or texting. Unless of course your contacting someone who has been tagged or flagged as someone of interest. If it keeps us safe....Is it not worth it?

In my opinion i'd say all communication around the world is monitored, Calls, Internet browsing, texts, Emails, Facebook all screened for intelligence. If i was a betting man i'd say social networking site's, search engine's and most ISP around the world are owned by intelligence gathering groups.

What are you so afraid of? You're more likely to die by slipping in the shower than you are in some kind of terrorist plot. And that's a fact. By your logic you should have no problem with cctv cameras being installed in your toilet and linked to a central processing centre to "protect you" from falling down the jacks or stepping on the soap and banging your bollocks on the faucets.

Daddy, daddy, keep me safe!! :pac:

MonaPizza

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

The man responsible for one of the most significant leaks in US political history is Edward Snowden, a 29-year-old former technical assistant for the CIA and current employee of the defence contractor Booz Allen Hamilton. Snowden has been working at the National Security Agency for the past four years as an employee of various outside contractors, including Booz Allen and Dell.
The Guardian, after interviewing him over several days, is revealing his identity at his request. From the moment he decided to disclose numerous top secret documents to the public, he was determined not to opt for the protection of anonymity. “I have no intention of hiding who I am because I know I have done nothing wrong,” he declared.
Snowden will go down in history as one of America’s most consequential whistleblowers, alongside Daniel Ellsberg and Bradley Manning. He is responsible for handing over material from one of the world’s most secretive organisations, the NSA.
In a note accompanying the first set of documents he provided, he wrote: “I understand that I will be made to suffer for my actions”, but “I will be satisfied if the federation of secret law, unequal pardon and irresistible executive powers that rule the world that I love are revealed even for an instant”.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/profile-who-is-edward-snowden-1.1423210


Personally, i think the distinct possibility that this man, if extradicted from Hong Kong - which is quite likely - will be prosecuted and serve an extremely lengthy jail term - possibly the rest of his life - is blooming disgraceful...given that what he sought to do was make transparent what should be transparent in the first place. If you (as in a government) are going to monitor the communications of your citizens, and indeed the citizenry of other countries, then at least be up front about it. If the purpose is to detect Terrorism, it will detect it regardless of whether or not it is public information. But otherwise, working covertly as they have been, is subversion of democracy. Hokay..Rant Off

Snowden is a very smart man. There is no way he is being extradited from Hong Kong. Firstly any extradition decision regarding political motives will be made in Beijing not in a Hong Kong courtroom. Secondly, Snowden has gifted the Chinese with weakening Obama's position. President Xi was visiting Obama on the day this blew open thus immunising Xi against any bluster that Obama had planned to lecture Xi about regarding Chinese violations of copyrights, hacking etc.....would look pretty stupid if he had tried. Finally, Snowden has a massive insurance policy if he is touched. Watch his interview again. He can blow the entire US spy network wide open if he is touched (i.e. he has given the information to third parties). He's untouchable and the NSA, CIA, FBI know it.

Camrat

MonaPizza wrote: »

What are you so afraid of? You're more likely to die by slipping in the shower than you are in some kind of terrorist plot. And that's a fact. By your logic you should have no problem with cctv cameras being installed in your toilet and linked to a central processing centre to "protect you" from falling down the jacks or stepping on the soap and banging your bollocks on the faucets.

Daddy, daddy, keep me safe!! :pac:

Did you even read my post, i started with "it really doesn't bother me" so what am i suppose to be afraid off.

Daddy, daddy, i'm all confused :rolleyes:

MonaPizza

gctest50 wrote: »

His is a traitor, no bravery involved there.

How is defending the populace from tyranny traitorous?
I thought that upholding and defending the Constitution from enemies foreign and domestic was the epitome of patriotism.....unless you can explain otherwise.

I'd love to hear it. What exactly constitutes treason and what constitutes patriotism?
What constitutes love of country and what constitutes treachery?

You voted (if indeed you did vote..ever) for men and women who have laughed behind your back as they have shredded and sneered at the constitution that you as a kid swore to defend....again that is if you are an American kid who's told to stand up in the morning and put hand over heart and recite some rubbish about which you are clueless.

You DO realise, don't you that complicity in a war crime makes you a war criminal? Oh, you'll never face justice. You just clapped in the bar or said nothing when the US were killing, torturing and executing.

So for you to say nothing as kids were being butchered is hardly steady ground to be standing on as you call a guy who has the guts to expose governmental criminality a "traitor".
Not only that but he risked his life to expose those who would dismantle the rights of 300 million of his countrymen, and 6 BILLION of his fellow human beings.

Choose your words carefully before you call someone a traitor. The fact that you would even besmirch a man who wants your freedom reinstated and is willing to stand alone and do so shows me who is the man and who is the mouse.

antybots

In my opinion, he is not a traitor or a hero but an idiot.

He has just ruined his life and his families lives for what?

Idealism is a great notion and he has highlighted a gross misuse of power (which everyone suspected anyway) but when all is said and done, nothing he has done will change anything, and after a while, no one will care or remember him, but his life will still be ruined all the same.

If he doesn't already, he is soon going to wish he could turn back time and have kept his mouth shut if even for the sake of his family.

thiarfearr

antybots wrote: »

In my opinion, he is not a traitor or a hero but an idiot.

He has just ruined his life and his families lives for what?

Idealism is a great notion and he has highlighted a gross misuse of power (which everyone suspected anyway) but when all is said and done, nothing he has done will change anything, and after a while, no one will care or remember him, but his life will still be ruined all the same.

If he doesn't already, he is soon going to wish he could turn back time and have kept his mouth shut if even for the sake of his family.

He said he'd access to everything, maybe he has dirt to keep him safe? Unlikely, but possible

Be like Nutella

antybots wrote: »

he has highlighted a gross misuse of power

Surely some things are worth sacrificing for.

Who cares about what happens to him, he doesn't seem to. He's more interested in us all debating the wider issue now that he has brought hard evidence to the table and turned our CT's about the NSA into reality.

He was working FOR the security apparatus which he now criticizes for 10 years. He swore an oath and was a patriot but as all real patriots do he questioned his orders and the righteousness of what his agency was doing on behalf of the American people and, after a long time, came to the conclusion that there was huge overreach and abuse of power and that the world needed to know about this stuff in order to better balance the ideas of defense and protection with civilian rights and liberties such as privacy which most people would very much consider a right.

To call him an idiot here is lazy don't you think. His professional career points towards the fact that he was far from being an idiot and his actions which you aptly say have ruined his life point towards a person with a high level moral compass and who gives a sh1t about the greater world. If anything all the evidence points to Snowden being an intelligent hero and probably a hell of a lot smarter than you or I !

antybots

Nope, He's still an idiot.

That's why nobody here posts under their real name, or shouts their theories from the rooftops instead of on a forum nobody reads.

It's because people know there are consequences for doing these things and you would have to be an idiot to expose yourself like that to the world, particularly if you are going to incur the wrath of the US while doing it.

My name is URL

This was posted on Reddit... makes a lot of sense!