Sir Stirling Moss says women lack mental aptitude for Formula 1

the culture of deference

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22083547

Former British racing driver Sir Stirling Moss believes women do not have the mental skills to race competitively in Formula 1.
Only five women have raced in grands prix and only one has scored a point.
Female drivers in F1

• Maria Teresa de Filippis - 5 races (1958-69), 3 starts - 0 points
• Lella Lombardi - 17 races (1974-76), 12 starts - 0.5 points
• Divina Galica - 3 races (1976 & 78), 0 starts (did not qualify)
• Desire Wilson - 1 race (1980), 0 starts (did not qualify)
• Giovanna Amati - 3 races (1992), 0 starts (did not qualify)

Moss, 83, told BBC Radio 5 live: "I think they have the strength, but I don't know if they've got the mental aptitude to race hard, wheel-to-wheel."



But F1 hopeful Susie Wolff, 30, responded: "I completely disagree with him. It makes me cringe hearing that."



Moss feels women have the necessary physical strength to race but thought they would be lacking mentally.



"We've got some very strong and robust ladies, but, when your life is at risk, I think the strain of that in a competitive situation will tell when you're trying to win," he said. "The mental stress I think would be pretty difficult for a lady to deal with in a practical fashion. I just don't think they have aptitude to win a Formula 1 race."



F1 boss Bernie Ecclestone, who appears on the BBC Radio 5 live special with Williams F1 deputy team principal Claire Williams, says there is "not really" a chance of a woman joining the sport in the near future.


"Unfortunately, the way things are, I don't imagine a lady will ever get the chance to drive a Red Bull or a Ferrari.
"The only chance is with a lesser team - and they only take someone if they come with a good sponsor. Regretfully, the problem is that many ladies who could compete probably as well as the guys won't get chance."



Wolff responded: "I agree with him. Ferrari and Red Bull take best drivers on the market at the time to go out and win world championships.
"I'm in a position where I'm just trying to get into F1, but I do believe that it's possible for a women to get in, otherwise I wouldn't be doing this."
You can hear more on Women in F1 on Monday, 15 April at 21:30 BST

paddy147

Popcorn at the ready here.:pac::D

Tzardine

Stirling is wrong, Bernie is right in some of his points I think.

Would love to see it happen though. Danica Patrick was due to test for Honda in 2008 but they pulled out of the sport. Would have been interesting to see how she got on.

clappyhappy

Watched the documentary on BBC 2 last night about Susie Wolff trying to become a F1 driver, really great programme. The dedication and time given to achieve each level is admirable.

Personally don't see why women can't race in F1.

If you are good enough to race it shouldn't matter what sex you are.

copeyhagen

it will be possible for women to race (and win) in formula 1, as soon as they build kitchens large enough to incorporate a f1 track.

Tzardine

LIGHTNING wrote: »

She isn't a particularly well liked person in the Nascar paddock. Remember the last time F1 had an American driver that nobody liked

Yeah the other drivers dont have much time for her. Didn't one of them complain because she had an unfair weight advantage lol.

the culture of deference

clappyhappy wrote: »

Watched the documentary on BBC 2 last night about Susie Wolff trying to become a F1 driver, really great programme. The dedication and time given to achieve each level is admirable.

Personally don't see why women can't race in F1.

If you are good enough to race it shouldn't matter what sex you are.

Susie is 30 now.

My young one is 10 now and loves karting, I think it's her generation where we might see a future star.

deecaz

I think it's a bit strange given Stirling Moss' sister was a very accomplished rally driver, was the first person to win a rally in a mini cooper, if I remember correctly. And this was in a time when motorsport was extremely dangerous and death and serious injury were regular occurrences. So if women could do it then why not now, when it infinitely safer. (although i think Pat Moss mostly rallyed so not so much wheel to wheel racing)

However, I'm not all that surprised on the other hand Stirling seems like a lovely old geezer but I pretty sure he believes a woman's place is looking pretty, from various interviews I've seen.

I do think that the bbc would have already have known what his thoughts were when they asked him for comment and it's all been blown out of proportion.

H3llR4iser

Women make perfectly fine astronauts and fighter jet pilots. I seriously doubt Formula 1 to be more "life threatening" than these two jobs. Case closed.

Frank Bullitt

Suzi Perry on twitter, fair play.

Re Sir Stirling Moss. I have huge respect for his driving but these comments are archaic headline making tripe, move on.

T-Maxx

I think Moss is right. To hell with being PC!

iDave

I thought Max Chilton was a girl

Stellaluna

I'd be curious to know what the reason is for the lack of female drivers in the sport. Is it a fundamental difference in female nature that means there are very few, if any, that would be able to make it to F1? Or is it the case that not enough girls are being brought up/nurtured to be racing drivers?

Mellio

Just create a Womens F1 season, would probably get way more viewers than the current shambles that is the F1. I cant stand the F1 anymore I just dont think it has the appeal it used many moons ago with the likes of Senna,Prost,Mansell e.t.c.

When Shumacher came along and was winning everything it spoilt the spectacle even more and from then on its lost its way, there are no characters anymore I dont think that create discussion points jsut bitching team mates that dont like each other cos they didnt hlep out the team.

I think putting the women out in a more even contest in fast cars would appeal to a whole new audience.

I would watch it....

RayM

Stirling Moss is an idiot. I wish journalists would stop interviewing him (and if they could keep their microphones away from Jackie Stewart, Niki Lauda and John Watson too, that would be great). Fine - interview him about stuff that happened fifty years ago, but he has nothing interesting or relevant to say about modern-day F1.

Of all the people who participate in motorsport, only a tiny percentage have the talent and the luck to make it to F1. And only a small number of those who get there are any good. If only a tiny percentage of people participating in the lower levels of the sport are female, it's statistically far less likely that there will ever be a successful female F1 driver. It has nothing to do with women being less physically or mentally capable.

the culture of deference

When we start seeing equal numbers of boys and girls coming through the formula's from 6 years of age upwards, then I cannot see any reason in the future for not having female F1 drivers.

Incidently Stirling was getting into trouble before this

Sir Stirling Moss caused controversy recently by saying he didn't want "a poofter or anything like that" to play him in a film.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/film-news/9929738/Stirling-Moss-doesnt-want-a-poofter-to-play-him-on-film.html

ScumLord

the day I went to witeriver go kart track to see a race the stand out driver there was a young girl and she was more than able to mix it up with the lads and fight her way through the pack.

Many girls probably wouldn't consider go karting, we're still only fresh out of women being told their place is in the home doing girly things.

To compare it to another sport that's just started promoting females, the UFC. The women in that work just as hard, maybe harder because they don't have the hormones needed, they show a streak of viciousness that's not in the mens fights.

There just isn't enough women doing the sport to make any assertions either way. It's all just assumptions based on dogma.

super_furry

Daft old man says something daft. More at six.

losthorizon

super_furry wrote: »

Daft old man says something daft. More at six.

Excuse me!! I contribute a lot to the motorsports forum!

paddy147

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Nascar drivers wouldn't be the slimmest group of drivers in all fairness

.....or the most intelligent either????:pac::pac::D

Danica......."DONT HIT ANYTHING"....:pac::D

Slutmonkey57b

Fantastic commentary by @f1kate on espn's website.

" But at least I can identify whether or not an elevator is in place before I elect to step into an empty lift shaft."

oceanman

the culture of deference wrote: »

Susie is 30 now.

My young one is 10 now and loves karting, I think it's her generation where we might see a future star.

thats true, at 30 its a bit late in the day to be thinking of F1.

Autosport

Stirling Moss can bake me a cake. Talks alot of rubbish and i dont listen to him anymore. Now if my daddy owned a nice big company i'm sure i could pay for a seat in a team and then we would have at least one female driver who would personally just drive into Vettel at every opportunity she got

Signed
Vettel's No 1 fan

Cookie_Monster

Stellaluna wrote: »

I'd be curious to know what the reason is for the lack of female drivers in the sport.

like nearly any other female sport - no one is as interested in sponsoring them as the visibility and returns are nowhere near the same as the mens version. Motor sport differs slightly in that it's a mixed gender sport but in general I would see the same holding through.
As F1 requires such huge money it will be very difficult for a female racer to pull in the same sponsorship IMO - especially given the (stereotypical) general lack of interest in cars and racing among the majority of women, so there isn't even really a target market for female orientated sponsors.

De Hipster

RayM wrote: »

Stirling Moss is an idiot. I wish journalists would stop interviewing him (and if they could keep their microphones away from Jackie Stewart, Niki Lauda and John Watson too, that would be great). Fine - interview him about stuff that happened fifty years ago, but he has nothing interesting or relevant to say about modern-day F1.

Of all the people who participate in motorsport, only a tiny percentage have the talent and the luck to make it to F1. And only a small number of those who get there are any good. If only a tiny percentage of people participating in the lower levels of the sport are female, it's statistically far less likely that there will ever be a successful female F1 driver. It has nothing to do with women being less physically or mentally capable.

^^^ What he said...Moss, Stewart & Watson in particular have some idiotic notion that they alone invented motorsport & it would not exist today only for them...retire with dignity lads & allow the new generation and cultural shifts some space to compete, evolve and continue in the sport you once excelled in.

F1 is not only male dominated but very much money focused, however there are many exceedingly talented women in motorsport highly respected and regarded by fans, competitors, sponsors and teams: FIA: http://www.fia.com/women-motorsport

There is a very interesting article of women in various aspects of motorsport through the decades: http://www.fia.com/women-through-decades

It chronicles women pioneers from Dorothy Levitt in the early 1900's to Anne Hall in the 60's, including Pat Moss (Sterling’s talented and determined rallying sister) 5 times European Ladies Champion.

From the perspective of F1; Maria Teresa de Filippis - the first woman in F1, Lella Lombardi, Davina Galica, Desiré Wilson...again all F1.

A personal hero of mine; Michéle Mouton with 4 WRC o/a wins...not ladies awards or secondary events O/A WRC wins. It is widely speculated that Michele would have been capable of a WRC title had family issues not intervened.

I was fortunate to watch Michele competing in the Quattro in the 1985 Circuit of Ireland, at the tender age of 9, while my dad shoved my face towards a chicken wire fence, all the while saying 'look at her...that's who you want to be when you grow up'!.
Another hero of mine Louise Aiken-Walker who is still heavily involved in promoting the sport to young up-and-coming talent, FIA Ladies World Champion '90.

Danica Patrick ...most of you have heard of and many more...well worth a read.

Also the FIA and ERC paid tribute to the many women in motorsport currently and through the ages on 8th March this year International women's day.
Moss is a very accomplished former racing driver and a bitter twisted old man who has little regard for non-Brits and women alike.

He won 16 F1 Grand Prix but never a championship (placed 2nd four years running '55, '56, '57, 58). Ironically he himself lost his 'aptitude' for racing when he crashed and was in a coma for a month in 1962.

oceanman

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I`d disagree, with any sport that is dominated by one sex if you get a person of the opposite sex in such sport they can get a lot of sponsorship as they stand out.

if that were true then why are they not getting a lot of sponsorship in f1 already?
i think its more to do with te fact that sponcers dont feel they can 'hack it' and therefore are not inclined to risk money on wemen f1 drivers.

Dravokivich

oceanman wrote: »

if that were true then why are they not getting a lot of sponsorship in f1 already?
i think its more to do with te fact that sponcers dont feel they can 'hack it' and therefore are not inclined to risk money on wemen f1 drivers.

I don't think it's about "hacking it." It's probably sexist to say it, but the elephant in the cockpit is women get pregnant.

frostie500

As mentioned before it's simply a case of there not being enough girls racing from a young age. There's lots of girl karters that show they can cut it with boys but, for me at least, the most dangerous thing for women in F1 is giving drivers like Maria di Villota and Susie Wolff drives, albeit test drives that will never go any further than that.

Why Wolff is being talked up as being even a contender for a place on the grid is beyond me. I know that in her case you could say that there has been more than a few men of similar experience/success getting test drives but the fact is that if women want to be taken seriously in F1 they need to wait for the right women to come along.

In my view a fair comparison is to black drivers. There was no black driver, for whatever reason, until Hamilton. He came in and was immense from day and a racial barrier (whether real or imaginary) was removed. If he had come in and been a crasher would teams have been wary of hiring another black driver? Im sure that they wouldnt have been but it would have been something discussed.

If Wolff or some other mediocre woman was to race in F1 and be off the pace we would see headline after headline of how women had no right to be racing etc. Instead for women to be able to race in F1 we need someone that is truly special. Someone with speed that has worked through the typical formulae and who is noted for her ability not her gender.

Say what you want about Danica but she is a solid race driver that came into Indy Cars and was a contender at the 500 straight away and a regular front runner. She isn't the best driver in the world by any stretch but she is a very competent driver who has done well to make it to the professional ranks and be respected by her peers.

We need someone that the other drivers in F1 would respect as their equal and not just a token woman

paddy147

Has Danica ever won a race or been on the podium in either IndyCar or Nascar?

paddy147

Louise Aiken-Walker ......anyone remember this scary crash??


She and co driver were very very lucky to get away with their lives.:eek:

paddy147

paddy147 wrote: »

Has Danica ever won a race or been on the podium in either IndyCar or Nascar?

1 win in 115 in Indycar.

Frank Bullitt

This hasnt gone down well in the F1 world it seems, silly old man.

SouperComputer

Moss is a grouchy auld sod haha. It's foolish to dismiss all women by his criteria, but for sure that covers most. However it probably covers most men too.

Anyway, checkout Beitske Visser. This girl has genuine speed, talent and doesn't come across as a complete and total b1atch like patrick. At a race last year she had a brake failure in practice and hit a tire wall prettymuch unimpeded. Came back next day to take the win and later found out she had broken her back in the accident the day before.
If that's not tough, I don't know what is.

I doubt Stoddart will race in F1, I remember her being upper mid grid in karts, not sure after that. I think she had a stint at the Mondello school for a while as an instructor?

De Hipster

oceanman wrote: »

if that were true then why are they not getting a lot of sponsorship in f1 already?
i think its more to do with te fact that sponcers dont feel they can 'hack it' and therefore are not inclined to risk money on wemen f1 drivers.

Motorsport starts very far from sponsorship, it's a monied peoples game & unless you are loaded and ridiculously committed you will get absolutely nowhere regardless of gender.

As a woman who has competed in amateur rallying in Ireland I would never have had access to the funds, connections nor frankly the inclination to go far in a sport that has a very visible glass ceiling (financial and gender based).

I can't speak for even a fraction of women in motorsport but having been (somewhat) in the fold for a while, it can be a bitchy cut-throat competitive place to be even at amateur level and a thick skin & brass neck go a long way...this might go someway to explaining why woman tend to opt for sports/careers/whatever they stand a chance in succeeding. It's not fun beating a lonely path...but some have done & made it quite a distance.

- just my 2c

Infoanon

Deleted User wrote: »

1 win in 115 in Indycar.

In fairness also a lot of podiums But Danica was an oval specialist - she never performed well on road courses/street circuits - thus never would make it in F1.

Simona De Silvestro however has shown a lot of speed and determination and has performed very well in her first two races in a competitve car - also has been brought to the attention of Mr.E

There are others as well - Ana Beatriz - but presently has a very uncompetitive car - the pit crew included volunteers at the last race !

Re the F1 arguement, a similar arguement arose recently in Indycar : Katherine Legge was recently dropped by her Indycar team - Katherine had similar results to Susie Wolff in DTM - and the point made by a number of drivers was that gender can't come into getting a race seat ,it is ultimately all about results and ultimately Katherine hadn't delivered. At the same time many pointed to Simona getting a good drive as being on merit.
I think the same logic should apply to F1

TheChrisD

paddy147 wrote: »

Has Danica ever won a race or been on the podium in either IndyCar or Nascar?

1 win, down to fuel mileage in a smaller-than-usual field - 18 cars in the race, as the transitioning Champ Car teams were at Long Beach that weekend.

6 podiums, 5 of them on ovals. The other at Detroit which she only got when 2nd+3rd place in front of her crashed with 3 to go.

paddy147

A woman in F1 would only be as a PR stunt,and nothing more.

Im not sexist far from it ( my girlfriend actually is the boss of me,most of the time) but thats just how it will be with a woman in F1.

Not a hope in hell of a female driver winning a current F1 race or getting on the podium,unless all other F1 cars were Red Bull and happened to suffer fuel starvation on the last lap..:pac:

the culture of deference

On the subject of fast women drivers did anyone see Sabine Schmitz on 5th gear last week. She looked like she had a lot of fun.

I remember her second appearance on Top Gear, she actually drove a Transit Diesel in an attempt to beat Clarkson's time set in the Jaguar S-Type diesel of 9 minutes 59 seconds. Her final time with the Transit was 10 minutes and 8 seconds .

H3llR4iser

LIGHTNING wrote: »

What has being a pilot and an astronaut got anything to do with F1? And its not the "life threatening" part that is in any way part of the argument.

They are the closest you can find when it comes to the type of physical stress.

In the full interview, Moss mentions the concept of life being at risk as a major reason for his stance: http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/105659.html .

I agree with De Hipster's comments, the first "proper" female F1 driver needs to come from a reputable racing background; It wasn't even remotely the case with Maria De Villota, while there is a bit to Susie Wolff's (nee Stoddardt) resumee - she raced for years in the DTM, a highly competitive series (Ask Jean Alesi, Mika Hakkinen, Ralf Schumacher, Heinz-Harald Frentzen) where she even obtained a handful of sub-category wins (she always raced in a previous-year-spec cars, which have a separate classification being considerably slower than the up-to-date ones).
Still, her F3 career was halted by injury and she doesn't have enough single-seater experience for F1.

Besides the obvious issue of there not being enough young girls that dream about becoming a race driver, there is also the fact that the ones that actually try and succeed at some level are often caught in the deadly spiral of media attention. The most famous case would of course be Danica Patrick, who showed some promise at the beginning of her Indycar career but whose on-track performances faded away as the frequency of her photoshoots/commercials/TV guest appeareances and her "superstar status" increased; Up to the point of landingin the retirement home for race drivers, Nascar.

One thing I have to object: as much as he might sound smug and annoying sometimes, arguably Jackie Stewart did give a significant contribution in order to make F1 what it is today; Without his work on the safety front the series, in its former deadly incarnation, would probably have been cancelled decades ago.

oceanman

H3llR4iser wrote: »

They are the closest you can find when it comes to the type of physical stress.

In the full interview, Moss mentions the concept of life being at risk as a major reason for his stance: http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/105659.html .

I agree with De Hipster's comments, the first "proper" female F1 driver needs to come from a reputable racing background; It wasn't even remotely the case with Maria De Villota, while there is a bit to Susie Wolff's (nee Stoddardt) resumee - she raced for years in the DTM, a highly competitive series (Ask Jean Alesi, Mika Hakkinen, Ralf Schumacher, Heinz-Harald Frentzen) where she even obtained a handful of sub-category wins (she always raced in a previous-year-spec cars, which have a separate classification being considerably slower than the up-to-date ones).
Still, her F3 career was halted by injury and she doesn't have enough single-seater experience for F1.

Besides the obvious issue of there not being enough young girls that dream about becoming a race driver, there is also the fact that the ones that actually try and succeed at some level are often caught in the deadly spiral of media attention. The most famous case would of course be Danica Patrick, who showed some promise at the beginning of her Indycar career but whose on-track performances faded away as the frequency of her photoshoots/commercials/TV guest appeareances and her "superstar status" increased; Up to the point of landingin the retirement home for race drivers, Nascar.

One thing I have to object: as much as he might sound smug and annoying sometimes, arguably Jackie Stewart did give a significant contribution in order to make F1 what it is today; Without his work on the safety front the series, in its former deadly incarnation, would probably have been cancelled decades ago.

thats very true, F1 owes a lot to people like jackie stewart

Infoanon

H3llR4iser wrote: »

They are the closest you can find when it comes to the type of physical stress.

In the full interview, Moss mentions the concept of life being at risk as a major reason for his stance: http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/105659.html .

In some respects Stirling Moss has a point about the concept pf life being at risk,and I recall Murray Walker speaking about the negativity that would be generated if a female drive was injured in a F1 car.
I always felt,rightly or wrongly, that Sarah Fisher (2 Pole Positions/Podium winner) got spooked after being involved in a bad crash at Indy but against that you could argue that Mike Conway has also been spooked by ovals - noting that there is a huge level of bravery involved in racing at 200mph at an oval.

However anyone who witnessed Danica Patrick racing wheel to wheel with Tony Kanann at 200 mph for 20+ laps or Simona de Silvestro qualifying a five year old car at Indy with bandaged hands after suffering second and third degree burns two days after the front suspension collapsed on her car at 200mph+ around Indy knows that Stirlings comments are flawed.

Danica Patrick turned down an offer to run some practice laps in a F1 car at Indy as she didn't want to be seen as a gimmick.

Also remember that the most sucessful female drive - Michele Mouton - drove the most dangerous of all cars - the Group B rally cars.

ScumLord

Infoanon wrote: »

Mike Conway has also been spooked by ovals - noting that there is a huge level of bravery involved in racing at 200mph at an oval.

It must have a big effect on drivers, even Massa has had problems getting back behind the wheel since his accident.

Danica Patrick turned down an offer to run some practice laps in a F1 car at Indy as she didn't want to be seen as a gimmick.

A gimmick? What kind of driver would turn down the chance to drive an F1 car?

Brian_Zeluz

ScumLord wrote: »

A gimmick? What kind of driver would turn down the chance to drive an F1 car?

A scaredy girly one. But seriously any driver turning down a chance in F1 is either dumb or knows they're not good enough.

Infoanon

Brian_Zeluz wrote: »

A scaredy girly one. But seriously any driver turning down a chance in F1 is either dumb or knows they're not good enough.

Would not be the first to turn down an F1 run - few factors probably came into the decision:
a) Sarah Fisher had done a similar run at Indy with arguably only her sponsors benefitting
b) Danica knew that road courses were not going to be her strength
c) or just maybe wanted to be taken as a serious driver and just given a token spin in an F1 car due to gender .

One name that has not been mentioned is Ellen Lohr - DTM Winner (beating team mate Keke Rosberg twice!) - Autosport headline maker 'Keke fought the law but the Lohr won' - but never interested in F1.Proving female drivers can win in DTM but alas highlighting how far off the pace Susie Wolff would be.

Brian_Zeluz

Infoanon wrote: »

c) or just maybe wanted to be taken as a serious driver and just given a token spin in an F1 car due to gender

Yeah that's fair enough, I was commenting from the point of view of someone who like most F1 fans will never get near driving an F1 car so for me someone turning down that chance seems totally weird/dumb.

Infoanon

The 'Women in motorsport' programme which includes the Stirling Moss interview has now been rescheduled for this Tuesday evening April 30th on 5 Live at 9.30pm