Libraries - Social Service or Public Drain

Lyaiera

Terry Deary (the guy who wrote the Horrible History books) sparked a bit of a row by saying that libraries should be consigned to the past. The Guardian wrote up his comments today.

Libraries 'have had their day', says Horrible Histories author

...

Deary is calling for a public debate around libraries, and for an end to the "sentimentality" he believes has framed the issue so far. "Why are all the authors coming out in support of libraries when libraries are cutting their throats and slashing their purses?" he asked. "We can't give everything away under the public purse. Books are part of the entertainment industry. Literature has been something elite, but it is not any more. This is not the Roman empire, where we give away free bread and circuses to the masses. People expect to pay for entertainment. They might object to TV licences, but they understand they have to do it. But because libraries have been around for so long, people have this idea that books should be freely available to all. I'm afraid those days are past. Libraries cost a vast amount … and the council tax payers are paying a lot of money to subsidise them, when they are used by an ever-diminishing amount of people."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2013/feb/13/libraries-horrible-histories-terry-deary

There's been a lot of talk about this online with most people calling him nuts.

I saw a documentary last year and in the extras there was an interview with professor who studies libraries (amongst other things.) His point was that libraries aren't just about books. When modern libraries were founded in the 19th Century they weren't for books, they were for providing education to an uneducated public.* Part of that was that there weren't fiction books in the libraries. Society deemed them superfluous so there was only factual books for people to learn. However as society progressed libraries did too. This professor (Scott Nicholson) maintains that libraries are community centres for knowledge, learning art and creation. That they allow people to get together in ways otherwise unavailable.

I thought this was all very interesting, anyway. And on a simple level I find it silly that an author doesn't want libraries when even with libraries most people buy books if they can. All the libraries do is encourage more readers.


*This is part of Deary's argument, that everyone receives education now. So with an educated public they should have to work to be able to buy entertainment. That we don't need to provide free tools for people.

keith16

tl;dr

Is my opinion on the local library.

padd b1975

Brilliant service IMHO.

Fox_In_Socks

The masses have facebook, X Factor and twatter now. Who needs education?

Ms. Pingui

I'm always in the local library. I love reading but I can't afford to buy books.
Keep 'em open I say!

Nick Riviera

Public service.

Stheno

Fantastic service imo.

Internet access for those who can't afford it, audio books for those who can't read, books for those who like to read, but can't afford to, kids clubs and events, local community noticeboards, study areas for those who need somewhere quiet that they can't get at home?

My council don't charge for membership, some do, but I genuinely believe they are a fantastic resource.

Johro

Deary is talking like a twat. Not all books are 'entertainment'. The library is invaluable. For informed reference, for learning, for information that is not always so readily available online. The web is full of misinformed opinions. Also, not everyone can buy a book, or go online. Libraries are brilliant for kids. There are so many reasons libraries are great it makes Deary's comments pale into insignificance.

Mardy Bum

Libraries are an extremely valuable service.

Some do need to adapt and integrate modern technology.

Cookie_Monster

Unfortunately less and less people seem to be reading books these days, either for education or just entertainment. I love to read and think it's something that needs to be still promoted and remain free for the general improvement of society.

I wonder if it's getting to the point though where it would just be cheaper to buy everyone an e-reader when they start school and offer a replacement every 5-10 years rather than have all the expense associated with libraries, though it'll be one less point of contact with he community for some.

Stheno

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Unfortunately less and less people seem to be reading books these days, either for education or just entertainment. I love to read and think it's something that needs to be still promoted and remain free for the general improvement of society.

I wonder if it's getting to the point though where it would just be cheaper to buy everyone an e-reader when they start school and offer a replacement every 5-10 years rather than have all the expense associated with libraries, though it'll be one less point of contact with he community for some.

I was unemployed briefly a couple of years ago and it was then I joined my local library. I wasn't getting out much, didn't know many people where I lived, and going down to the library and having a small bit of chat with the staff there about the books, or checking something out with them was a very welcome social interaction outside of the few people I saw each day.

As I built up my membership, they got to know me, and would smile and say hello etc.

That was only a few weeks, but I'd imagine for anyone struggling with unemployment or social isolation, having a service like this might be of value.

My library is one of those (to me) fancy ones where they have the machines that you can use rather than go to the staff, but even so, it was still a place where plenty of people found opportunities for social interaction that is rare these days.

Stheno

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Libraries are an extremely valuable service.

Some do need to adapt and integrate modern technology.

Mine has, it has self service, you can go online with your library card number, browse all of the titles in any of the libraries in my council, reserve them, have them delivered to your local library, extend your borrowing time online etc.

Having lived in another part of Ireland where you'd to pay at least €10 a year to be a member I was astounded that it was free and was as sophisticated as it is.

My membership card is long lost, as I'd my wallet stolen, but having recently started a Masters, I'll be going back (I'm sure I have fines ) as I'll no doubt find books I can't afford to pay for available to me, that will help me earn a better grade in my masters than I could without.

Johro

Stheno wrote: »

Fantastic service imo.

Internet access for those who can't afford it, audio books for those who can't read, books for those who like to read, but can't afford to, kids clubs and events, local community noticeboards, study areas for those who need somewhere quiet that they can't get at home?

My council don't charge for membership, some do, but I genuinely believe they are a fantastic resource.

Exactly. But I guess we won't be buying Deary's books if the library stocks them, is that the issue? Also if he sees books as just entertainment he's not visited many libraries to see what's on offer, there is far more than just comedy or fiction.
It's funny really. His books are pretty good in that they make learning history fun for kids, as is the TV version, in fact I think it has won awards, but surely libraries are a great resource for kids alone, never mind the rest of us.

Ms. Pingui

Stheno wrote: »

I was unemployed briefly a couple of years ago and it was then I joined my local library. I wasn't getting out much, didn't know many people where I lived, and going down to the library and having a small bit of chat with the staff there about the books, or checking something out with them was a very welcome social interaction outside of the few people I saw each day.

As I built up my membership, they got to know me, and would smile and say hello etc.

That was only a few weeks, but I'd imagine for anyone struggling with unemployment or social isolation, having a service like this might be of value.

My library is one of those (to me) fancy ones where they have the machines that you can use rather than go to the staff, but even so, it was still a place where plenty of people found opportunities for social interaction that is rare these days.

Completely agree.
I'm unfortunately unemployed at the moment. Myself and my young daughter go to the library several times a week and we sit down and read stories together.
It's great to get out of the house to do something that doesn't cost a fortune, especially as it's too wet and cold for things like the park.

DEFTLEFTHAND

I suppose a time will come unfortunately when the book will become a thing of the past. Like somebody mentioned e-readers and other technologies are most likely the future for education, recreational reading etc. I wouldn't be happy with that but it seems to be the way things are going, just look at the music industry today, the physical copies of recordings are in the process of dying out.

pastorbarrett

Mr Dreary's argument is largely motivated by self-acesnsion it seems. Undoubtedly he never borrowed a hard-to-find, informative book to research his cartoon history for dummies series (good toilet reading, admittedly- perhaps less so if it's a borrowed copy- undoubtedly someone else would've already done the same).

"People expect to pay for entertainment"-Really? Obviously Mr Dreary spends too much time thinking about the past and not using the internet. Twat.

TheBegotten

I loved those comics...happy days. :rolleyes:
It's kind of ironic really, I used to get his books from the local library every now and again, never bought a single one. I think the future of literature lies in online libraries and story sites such as Wattpad, and in independant e-publishing.
I wouldn't mind paying something like €20 a year for an e-library service if it went straight to the authors, instead of €10 for a book, of which the author might see 5c.

Fromthetrees

I go to the library about once a month with my daughter, it's a fantastic service, how else could I get 10 'brand new' books every month, it'd cost a small fortune to buy them but because of the library she has been able to experience 100's of books already at this stage.

That's without even going into all the live readings, competitions and performers that appear there but we never get the time to get involved with.

It has often been a nice refuge for my studying.

When my internet was down it gave me a cheap way to get online.

It has a wonderful music and DVD library that has a really eclectic selection.

There are just so many books I simply would have never read if it wasn't for the library.

Reading is fine online but nothing will ever replace the book.

I'm too tired to go on but if anyone tries to take away my library I'm going throw a bag of poo at them.

woodoo

Get rid of them, waste of money and only smelly weirdos go into them.

Stheno

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I suppose a time will come unfortunately when the book will become a thing of the past. Like somebody mentioned e-readers and other technologies are most likely the future for education, recreational reading etc. I wouldn't be happy with that but it seems to be the way things are going, just look at the music industry today, the physical copies of recordings are in the process of dying out.

I suspect our libraries will evolve, this thread has inspired me to head on down tomorrow and renew my membership at mine OOOOH happy days, the thoughts of all those unread books waiting to greet me

Mine I think, already has a system in place for ebooks, that you can borrow them just as you can physical books, it's like a temp licence that expires unless you extend it.

Same with my masters, 20 years ago, you'd have been laughed out of the room if you said you were doing something completely online, my masters is, apart from the odd textbook, and when I enquired about paper books for my next two modules, I was informed they are moving to ebooks, been a big change for me.

Lyaiera

Stheno wrote: »

I suspect our libraries will evolve, this thread has inspired me to head on down tomorrow and renew my membership at mine OOOOH happy days, the thoughts of all those unread books waiting to greet me

Mine I think, already has a system in place for ebooks, that you can borrow them just as you can physical books, it's like a temp licence that expires unless you extend it.

Same with my masters, 20 years ago, you'd have been laughed out of the room if you said you were doing something completely online, my masters is, apart from the odd textbook, and when I enquired about paper books for my next two modules, I was informed they are moving to ebooks, been a big change for me.

The guy I talked about in the OP says that libraries have been constantly evolving. Once they were only for non-fiction and reference books, then all books, then they added music and comics/graphic novels, then computers and the internet. He said you just have to look at libraries now having "quiet rooms." The image of a library being bathed in silence is still there but it's not realistic. People don't run around a shout, but libraries aren't completely silent anymore. People often chat about books, work on group projects, have job clubs, etc. The last time I was in a library I saw a notice saying, that people should turn their mobile to vibrate and if someone rings, answer say you're in a library and go out to the hallway. And all this now means that a lot of libraries have designated rooms for totally quiet places.

Fromthetrees wrote: »

That's without even going into all the live readings, competitions and performers that appear there but we never get the time to get involved with.

This is another thing he spoke about. He said that the biggest users of libraries are the very young (with their parents) and the very old. While there's collections for loan available for everyone there's often much more activities and events around learning, education, knowledge, art and creation for those two demographics. Now libraries are trying to grow into the area between that demographic and that involves providing more services and activities for people who are in the teenage years and those not yet retired. And all this comes down to libraries not being only about books, but instead a sort of community based, self-directed venue for education. Something that works in parallel to things like schools and universities running directed learning.

I've read a bit about actual librarianship, not just the stamping a date on a book but how to run and develop a successful library and it's a really interesting area that reflects a lot on society.

RayCon

I think they're vital.

starlings

Lyaiera wrote: »

People don't run around a shout, but libraries aren't completely silent anymore. People often chat about books, work on group projects, have job clubs, etc. The last time I was in a library I saw a notice saying, that people should turn their mobile to vibrate and if someone rings, answer say you're in a library and go out to the hallway. And all this now means that a lot of libraries have designated rooms for totally quiet places.

This is another thing he spoke about. He said that the biggest users of libraries are the very young (with their parents) and the very old. While there's collections for loan available for everyone there's often much more activities and events around learning, education, knowledge, art and creation for those two demographics. Now libraries are trying to grow into the area between that demographic and that involves providing more services and activities for people who are in the teenage years and those not yet retired. And all this comes down to libraries not being only about books, but instead a sort of community based, self-directed venue for education. Something that works in parallel to things like schools and universities running directed learning.

I've read a bit about actual librarianship, not just the stamping a date on a book but how to run and develop a successful library and it's a really interesting area that reflects a lot on society.

Yes. [disclaimer: I am only sentimental about a few things, but libraries are one.]

There was a public mobile library that would stop every second Thursday at the crossroads where I grew up, an old truck with musty-smelling books and a cabinet of tiny drawers where they kept tiny envelopes to keep the tickets. It was way better than a dolls house. And yes, it was just 6 - 12 year old me and the local old dears who used it.

You're absolutely right that a library is a place to read and to interact, far more so than just a store of books. Sometimes I go in just to listen.

ejmaztec

... and if you're the head librarian you get big bucks for looking after books.

sock puppet

meridiangroup wrote: »

Mr Dreary's argument is largely motivated by self-acesnsion it seems. Undoubtedly he never borrowed a hard-to-find, informative book to research his cartoon history for dummies series

It's a children's series. Will you be giving us your thoughts on the lack of character development in the Teletubbies next?

7 7 12

No problem with libraries, have problem with the €100,000+ yearly salaries the librarians get from tax payers money

Astonishingly, the Dublin city librarian earns more than the prime minister of Spain at €106,900 (the top of pay scale). Spain’s prime minister receives an annual salary of about €92,000, so in fact it’s not just the head librarian who earns more than him, but many of those working in top local authority positions.

What a joke, where front line Garda staff who risk getting shot dead are having their pay slashed left right and centre

marcsignal

I'll keep it simple..

Deary sounds like a klutz to me

Zebra3

woodoo wrote: »

Get rid of them, waste of money and only smelly weirdos go into them.

:rolleyes:

Enough said.

IM0

mr dreary, turkeys never have or never will vote for christmas

Lyaiera

IM0 wrote: »

mr dreary, turkeys never have or never will vote for christmas

I think I understand what you're saying there. However every author I've seen comment on this has been entirely in favour of libraries.

hames

Johro wrote: »

Deary is talking like a twat. Not all books are 'entertainment'. The library is invaluable. For informed reference, for learning, for information that is not always so readily available online. The web is full of misinformed opinions. Also, not everyone can buy a book, or go online. Libraries are brilliant for kids. There are so many reasons libraries are great it makes Deary's comments pale into insignificance.

I totally agree with all of this.

Not relevant, but his comments portray an impression that Deary is only motivated by his own financial health.

However... I do agree that librarians should be on a lower pay scale than members of the Garda Síochána.

That's my only gripe... there is no relativity in pay levels (as with much of the public service...(

Lyaiera

Being a librarian takes a huge amount of education. Low level Gardai have some education credentials but to master's level?

hames

Lyaiera wrote: »

Being a librarian takes a huge amount of education. Low level Gardai have some education credentials but to master's level?

They are public employees; surely the question should not be of arbitrary educational attainment, but rather of an ability to contribute to the common good.

Lyaiera

hames wrote: »

They are public employees; surely the question should not be of arbitrary educational attainment, but rather of an ability to contribute to the common good.

How is education arbitrary?

And currently we live in a system where a person's contribution to the common good is majorly defined by remuneration for that contribution. So unless you're proposing a societal shift in the western world it's self evident that librarians contribute more.

monkeypants

I'm hoping that's only part of his argument, but Mr Deary's main gripe appears to be that he doesn't feel that he gets paid enough for his work. In other words, greed. Perhaps we should consider a flat fee for Mr Deary's work rather than paying him over the next 50 - 70 years.

My local library is in Swords and it's possibly the best service that Fingal has to offer.

.jacksparrow.

Thing about the libraries is they are way too overstaffed but they can't get rid of some of the staff as we know.my local library has 6 people standing around with nothing to do,its like most of the public sector.

speedboatchase

Haven't went into a library - outside of my university's library when I was a student - in around 15 years. They're not vital at all and I think people who say they are have a very idealised view that is out of step with reality.

Annasopra

woodoo wrote: »

only smelly weirdos go into them.

How do you know this?

Annasopra

7 7 12 wrote: »

No problem with libraries, have problem with the €100,000+ yearly salaries the librarians get from tax payers money



What a joke, where front line Garda staff who risk getting shot dead are having their pay slashed left right and centre

FFS thats for managing 25 libraries and city archives. Nothing wrong with that wage.

My local libray has a room that looks over the sea, in fact the sea is almost right behind the library, they also have free newspapers. I often fantasise that when I am retired I will got for a walk everyday to the library go up to the room overlooking the sea and read the daily papers while looking at the crashing waves.

Has anyone been in the Illac library or the Blanchardstown one they are fantastic resources.

hames

Lyaiera wrote: »

How is education arbitrary?

Education itself is not 'arbitrary', that sentance makes no sense.

What I said was arbitrary was scaling pay to a particular level of educational attainment, and not its contribution to the common good. The latter measurement could also arbitrary to an extent, but would be a more logical way of paying public service employees, in my opinion.

And currently we live in a system where a person's contribution to the common good is majorly defined by remuneration for that contribution.

I'd completely disagree; compare Garda pay scales to those in the library service; there seems to be little accounting for the dangers and pressures faced by Gardaí,nor their greater contribution to the common good.