I don't really get Sonic

Zombrex

I was playing Sonic CD on the Xbox this evening. It is a very highly regarded Sonic game, a highly regarded game in general.

I found myself having the same cognitive dissidence I always experience when playing a Sonic game. Half my brain was telling me this is supposed to be good, I am supposed to enjoy this, and the other half (or maybe my heart) was saying I just don't get this.

To my untrained eyes Sonic represents a whole lot of things that are wrong with platform games, things you shouldn't do. From the confusing levels that suggest you explore but don't really give you much beyond rings, to the instant death that regularly accompanies leaps into the unknown, playing a Sonic game just seems like a chore more than an enjoyable experience. And I love platform games, I love (dare I say it) Mario.

So Sonic fan boys of Boards.ie, what am I missing? Am I just doing it wrong? Am I playing in a non-Sonic style, should I be spending more time learning the levels and practicing the leaps of faith? Should I be trying to figure out the ways to get super speed through the whole level? Do such routes even exist?

I'm a retro fan, I want to understand the joy of Sonic. But at the moment I'm just not seeing it.

seanybiker

There's nothing mental to understand about it. You either like it or you don't. Over analyzing the game is your only problem IMHO.

o1s1n

For a start, you're playing the worst classic Sonic platformer. You need to be playing Sonic 1,2 3 & Knuckles.

K.O.Kiki

TBH, Donkey Kong Country 2 is a far better game for speed-running & exploration -- you never really have a leap-of-faith moment, and the level designs/enemy pop-up are such that you CAN literally hold forward and jump *just so* and never get hit.

David Sirlin agrees.

More subtly, the layout of levels often subconsciously suggests a certain path. Jumping from this ledge to that vine and so on just looks right. It feels like the right way to go. And as soon as you believe it's the right way to go, the game has got you. And that is the beauty of Donkey Kong Country 2: it's a constant psychological battle against your own assumptions. Every step of the way, the game is trying to fool you. The bananas are on your side, the but the rest of the level is not. Like a good mystery, there's always a clue--there's always some indication--of where a secret is. There's a way to find every secret without having to constantly kill yourself by jumping into random pits (the bane of Donkey Kong Country 1).

mikemac1

Sonic CD is a poor part of that franchise and certainly not a classic.

A lot of the fun with Sonic was getting a friend to control Tails, ye work together and Tails could give a lift and helicopter upwards

Touch Fuzzy Get Dizzy

o1s1n wrote: »

For a start, you're playing the worst classic Sonic platformer. You need to be playing Sonic 1,2 3 & Knuckles.

I agree, but don't forget about the Game Gear games like Triple Trouble. I thought the Advance games were really great fun as well.
Sonic 3 and Knuckles is the best of them all IMO.

Doge

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

TBH, Donkey Kong Country 2 is a far better game for speed-running & exploration -- you never really have a leap-of-faith moment, and the level designs/enemy pop-up are such that you CAN literally hold forward and jump *just so* and never get hit.

David Sirlin agrees.

Playing it recently on an emulator ,
I found the mine cart stages to be an absolute bad word for a womans vagina!

I reckon its just a harder game in general, but an absolute classic at the same time.

I tend to suck a bit at Mario also.

I think i need to spend more time playing Nintendo games.

Retr0gamer

Sonic 2, 3 and Knuckles is waht you should be plating. Actually screw that just play Mario World, Mario 3, New Super Mario Bros Wii and Yoshi's Island instead, much better games :P

Sonic CD is definitely the worst of the classic sonic games though. I just don't get some of the fans love for that game.

Never really liked the Sonic Advance games. They're made by Dimps and has the trademark leaps of faith and unavoidable pitfalls that plague the latest sonic games.

CiDeRmAn

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

TBH, Donkey Kong Country 2 is a far better game for speed-running & exploration -- you never really have a leap-of-faith moment, and the level designs/enemy pop-up are such that you CAN literally hold forward and jump *just so* and never get hit.]

Bang of a troll here....

And get Sonic 2 or Sonic 3, both great, not sure what happened with Sonic CD.
I like it myself but I can't remember the last time I played it.
The levels lack any kind of focus and too many insta-deaths too.

Personally I loved the third one, the levels, the music and sound samples are great, and when used with Sonic and Knuckles you get another run at it too.

Myrddin

If you want to 'get' Sonic, you have to bear in mind there are only four sonic games. Sonic 1, 2, 3 & Knuckles. I've yet to play a Sonic game post these titles, that looks or feels like them to play.

Also, though the games are not connected in any important way, to me Sonic 1 sets the foundations & roots of the subsequent others. They all have the dame approach, but Sonic 1 really paves the way to enjoying the others.

My advice, play through Sonic 1 completely. The level design is simplistic, yet so effective. Listen to the music, every single Zone has a signature soundtrack that is timeless. Don't worry about the game as much when it comes to rings, score, time etc. Enjoy the levels, enjoy the music & the experience as a whole. If, towards the end of the game you find yourself not enjoying it the way others do, then its simply not for you. No shame at all in that, there's plenty of games I feel that way about which are regarded as brilliant.

Also, try play it on an original console, through a crt tv if you can to get the best outta the visuals.

chopperbyrne

Sonic games in general are quite poor. They were sold on being really fast games, but from the second Zone onwards the game gets tediously slow at times.

o1s1n

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Sonic games in general are quite poor. They were sold on being really fast games, but from the second Zone onwards the game gets tediously slow at times.

You know nothing. NOTHING!

Professey Chin

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Sonic games in general are quite poor. They were sold on being really fast games, but from the second Zone onwards the game gets tediously slow at times.

No they werent. The fast sections were like a mini reward for the slow paced platform sections. Its just the easier the level the faster you can go

Myrddin

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Sonic games in general are quite poor. They were sold on being really fast games, but from the second Zone onwards the game gets tediously slow at times.

Sonic, as a platformer, is slow. You can blaze through it if you want, but its missing the point. To echo the above, the speed sections are few & far between, they're only there to give a new element to the level.

unky chop chop

You can play them too ways..Blast through them at full speed or explore everything at a slow pace
I love the sonic games since the original.
Still that crappy "leap of faith element" is really frustrating but there's no way around it design wise.

Still chopper has valid point..Sonic was marketed on the speed element and its what set the game apart from other platformers(mainly Mario at the time) With out this gimic it would be nothing more than a mundane platformer
Sonic 2 and sonic and knuckles are best in my book

Dr Bob

Each to their own , I know they're decent games but other than SMB 1 and the firsl gameboy one(SML?) I've never been a huge fan of the mario games.

Retr0gamer

luas_dublin wrote: »

Each to their own , I know they're decent games but other than SMB 1 and the firsl gameboy one(SML?) I've never been a huge fan of the mario games.

Coming from a man that owns Rise of the Robots :P

Professey Chin

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Coming from a man that owns Rise of the Robots :P

Twice >_>

Shapey Fiend

I think the pleasure of playing Sonic games is learning the levels off so you can mostly zip through the game without dying much. It's like a racing game experience.

That's why I'd always prefer Sonic 2 to the likes of Sonic 3/S&K and Sonic CD. The levels are much shorter. The (slow) underwater sections are avoidable. The longer levels of the follow ups sap the momentum out of the game. That and large sections seem very copy pasted from previous ones so it's hard to remember where you are. When the games were designed to be completed in one sitting it made more sense.

Sonic games should be about cruising about at speed with good music and attractive graphics. Sega always tended to go wrong when they strayed too far from their arcade template. If you want something with more considered gameplay get Super Mario World.

Myrddin

Shapey Fiend wrote: »

Sonic games should be about cruising about at speed with good music and attractive graphics

In that case every modern Sonic game would be a gem. They're not. Blind speed has very little to do with a successful Sonic game.

Dr Bob

The Great Chinholio wrote: »

Twice >_>

I'm actually having trouble giving one away!

Myrddin

luas_dublin wrote: »

I'm actually having trouble giving one away!

Is that the youtube competition. I'll give you a euro for it?

Retr0gamer

EnterNow wrote: »

In that case every modern Sonic game would be a gem. They're not. Blind speed has very little to do with a successful Sonic game.

So true. The beauty of the megadrive sonic games is that in the speedy sections missing a jump doesn't lead to instant death. If you manage to make a jump during one of the speedy sections it opens up another huge section of the level you otherwise would have missed. The newer games just place pitfalls to dick over the player, causing frustration and trial and error design, otherwise known as shit level design.

The way the older sonic games handle the speedy sections by opening up vast new areas in each level also promotes replay. The old sonic games might have been easier than buttering toast but had loads of replay because of all the secrets. I remember a Sonic Unleashed apologist telling me how great the last level of the game was because it was so cinematic and he lost close to 40 lives in trying to beat it. Most of those I imagine are due to **** level design.

Sonic Generations is a decent game but they really still don't know what makes sonic so good. In the speedy sections they still have the bottomless pitfalls and hardly any alternative paths but they took people calling them 'unsignposted pitfalls' too seriously and now have signs telling you when one is coming up. Crap level design at its worst.

Myrddin

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Sonic Generations is a decent game but they really still don't know what makes sonic so good. In the speedy sections they still have the bottomless pitfalls and hardly any alternative paths but they took people calling them 'unsignposted pitfalls' too seriously and now have signs telling you when one is coming up. Crap level design at its worst.

Yep, agreed. It's the closest they've gotten yet, but its just a nostalgia fest. It's fun & playable, but Generations doesn't hold a candle to any of the recognised vintage Sonic games.

Shapey Fiend

If you ever played, say, Sonic 2 on the Master System that put much more emphasis on the tricky platforming. Loads of bottomless pits.

But Sonic 2 on the Mega Drive has very few of them, and they're in the 'slow' zones like Mystic Cave. You need a few of them to just to vary the pacing. But at least in that game the 1st 3 zones are relatively quick. You can blaze through all of them in 10 minutes with a bit of practice.

Retr0gamer

The master system games were much slower paced and therefore the bottomless pits weren't unavoidable like they are in the newer games. I really like the MS/GG versions.

Dr Bob

EnterNow wrote: »

Is that the youtube competition. I'll give you a euro for it?

throw a comment on the vid , theres been that little take up for it you're in with a hefty chance of getting it for free
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EL2SGi7UFg

Doge

In terms of difficulty, I think the reason I find the sonic games so much easier to the mario games
is because Sonic is so much more "down to earth."

Myrddin

waveform wrote: »

In terms of difficulty, I think the reason I find the sonic games so much easier to the mario games
is because Sonic is so much more "down to earth."

Sonic is almost arcade like in its gameplay.
Super Mario World, is an old school true & true console platformer. And a damn incredible one at that.

96*'d in my day :cool: Doubt I'll ever repeat that again

Mr.Saturn

Retr0gamer wrote: »

The master system games were much slower paced and therefore the bottomless pits weren't unavoidable like they are in the newer games. I really like the MS/GG versions.

Even with the breathed pace, MS/GG's Sonic 2 seems to have a leap of faith for every second platform. I can't tell you how many times I just reached the end of the line and had to jump into the unknown.

CiDeRmAn

Hmm, I know there's a Bubsy fan in here somewhere, lurking...
Just waiting for a lull to occur before he/she/it jumps in..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM0G4rWKSCs

A Gex fan here and there as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkFHG63nJu0

We must be watchful.

Perhaps such people should have barcodes tattooed on there persons so they are easier to identify and avoid?

Dr Bob

The "other" platformer franchises eh?
so if NES/SNES/Every nintendo console ever till eterenity since they're milking it:Mario
Meg: Sonic
GG:Sonic
Mastersystem:Alex Kidd/Wonderboy
Spectrum:Jet set willy
Atari VCS: Pitfall? Miner 2049er is probably a better example of a platformer
Atari 8 bit:Montezuma's revenge?
c64:Impossible mission?Rick dangerous?
Amstrad: ???God knows!
PC Engine:Bonk?
Any more? or better ones

Dr Bob

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Hmm, I know there's a Bubsy fan in here somewhere, lurking...

Kid Chameleon ForEVAH!!!

Professey Chin

Is this thread causing a Malware Warning on Chrome for anyone else?
Im blaming Bubsy

Myrddin

The Great Chinholio wrote: »

Is this thread causing a Malware Warning on Chrome for anyone else?
Im blaming Bubsy

No thats Chrome itself

No alerts here with Firefox 10, Avast & Malware Bytes running

K.O.Kiki

It was probably me, my UK:R logo informing me that UK Resistance have succumbed to the ravages of time.

Shapey Fiend

I'm all about Dark Castle, TaleSpin and Greendog: The Beached Surfer Dude.

unky chop chop

Playing Sonic adventures 2 on Dreamcast now..Great game
The music in the first level is super cheesy Sega style with the trademark rock guitars and vocals
You have to hear the vocals.
"Follow me,trust in me rolling around at the speed of sound,got places to go,got to follow the rainbow"
I'm in tears here

CiDeRmAn

unky chop chop wrote: »

[SARCASM] Playing Sonic adventures 2 on Dreamcast now..Great game
The music in the first level is super cheesy Sega style with the trademark rock guitars and vocals
You have to hear the vocals.
"Follow me,trust in me rolling around at the speed of sound,got places to go,got to follow the rainbow"
I'm in tears here [/SARCASM]

Fixed it for you!
At least I hope I did.
If you weren't being sarcastic then it was a pleasure having you around these parts and be sure not to keep in touch....