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save no. 16 Moore Street

  • 07-02-2012 9:51pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371
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    the last hQ of the 1916 insurgents is in a decrepit state and the authorities do not have any plans to restore it. there seem to be plans afoot to build yet another shopping center in the area, which would destroy the moore street market. it is a pity that there is not more respect for heritage in the capital.


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 FreudianSlippers
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    Is 16 the Plunket building?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,567 delta_bravo
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    That plan is dead in the water. It was speculated by Arnotts who are now in NAMA


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,883 Poxyshamrock
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    Was it not John Lewis who were to develop that site?


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 10,661 John Mason
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    thats all been scraped now - remember we were going to have that roof top park and a ski slope on top of it :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 Fuinseog
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    That plan is dead in the water. It was speculated by Arnotts who are now in NAMA

    I read in on the last page of The Irish Times magazine which featured Moore Street and said planning permission had been granted and gave the impression it was going ahead.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 FreudianSlippers
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    There is something going ahead I just can't remember what off the top of my head. I'll have a look and let you know today/tomorrow.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,126 Gileadi
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    These days there is quite a gap between planning permission being granted and the developer actually having the cash to go ahead.

    PP lasts for 5 years as far as I remember so its probably been put on the long finger incase of a miracle recovery.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 FreudianSlippers
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    Ok, so apparently the Carlton Cinema Development is still going ahead but they're dealing with an arsenic find on site. The "park in the sky" plan is not the same plan apparently (the new one is far more dull and ugly).

    This has been discussed in the Dáil recently: http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/01/31/00048.asp
    83. Deputy Michael Colreavy asked the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht the steps he has taken to secure the future of 14-17 Moore Street, Dublin; and if he will ensure that the area around Moore Street can be developed into a revolutionary quarter at the heart of Dublin city. [5194/12]

    Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht (Deputy Jimmy Deenihan): In January 2007, the then Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government placed a preservation order on Nos. 14 to 17 Moore Street under the National Monuments Acts. The order was made on the grounds that No. 16 is a monument, the preservation of which is of national importance by reason of its historical significance as the site of the final council of war and final headquarters of the Provisional Government. The effect of the order is that works affecting these properties, including any excavation or ground disturbance within, around or in proximity to them, will require my consent under section 14 of the National Monuments Act 1930, as amended.

    The proposed development of the Carlton Cinema site, of which Nos. 14 to 17 Moore Street form part, and for which approval has been granted by An Bord Pleanála, envisages the retention of these buildings and the provision of a commemorative centre to the 1916 Rising in No. 16. The developer’s application to my Department for consent to these proposals under section 14 of the National Monuments Acts is being examined. As part of the process, I have visited the monument site and met various interest groups, including relatives of the 1916 leaders. My Department is currently in consultation with the National Museum of Ireland in relation to the application and I hope to be able to make a decision on it shortly.

    Any wider plans for the development of the Moore Street area would be a matter for the relevant landowners and the development authority, Dublin City Council.

    So, it's safe.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 Fuinseog
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    Ok, so apparently the Carlton Cinema Development is still going ahead but they're dealing with an arsenic find on site. The "park in the sky" plan is not the same plan apparently (the new one is far more dull and ugly).

    This has been discussed in the Dáil recently: http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/01/31/00048.asp


    So, it's safe.

    thanks for that. while no. 16 is a national monument I wonder are there any plans to restore it? it does not look as if anything has been done with it since 1916. I heard there were talks of making a museum out of it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,375 Boulevardier
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    Why would any Irish patriot want to keep a place of surrender as a monument?

    Its almost like the Ku Klux Klan wanting to preserve Appomattox Court House in memory of 1865.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,674 Faith+1
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    Why would any Irish patriot want to keep a place of surrender as a monument?

    Its almost like the Ku Klux Klan wanting to preserve Appomattox Court House in memory of 1865.

    Because it's our history, The Easter Rising was technically a failure yet we still celebrate it. And please don't compare Irish Patriots to douchebag hick racists.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 Fuinseog
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    Why would any Irish patriot want to keep a place of surrender as a monument?

    Its almost like the Ku Klux Klan wanting to preserve Appomattox Court House in memory of 1865.

    people who study Irish history come to Dublin and want to see where the battles were fought.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,567 delta_bravo
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    Fuinseog wrote: »
    people who study Irish history come to Dublin and want to see where the battles were fought.

    There wasn't much fighting around there.

    A thought came to my head really about this. The GPO itself would be an excellent place for a museum/centre about 1916. Kick An Post out and send their HQ out to Clondalkin or somewhere else. The building is very much under-utilised by the public in terms of its potential.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,375 Boulevardier
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    The GPO museum idea was floated by FF a few years ago. Like most FF ideas, I do not like it.

    Postal services are being "opened up" to competition at the behest of our EU masters. As part of this process, the publicly-owned An Post is being run down.

    Taking An Post out of the GPO would serve that marginalising agenda very well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 FreudianSlippers
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    The GPO museum idea was floated by FF a few years ago. Like most FF ideas, I do not like it.

    Postal services are being "opened up" to competition at the behest of our EU masters. As part of this process, the publicly-owned An Post is being run down.

    Taking An Post out of the GPO would serve that marginalising agenda very well.
    How exactly?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,375 Boulevardier
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    In the UK I saw post offices being moved from prestige spots in towns to less prominent locations, while their old locations were then by private companies.

    I do not like seeing the profile of public services and institutions sidelined in this way. I would prefer to see public service institutions such as post offices keep pride of place on our streets.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41,926 _blank_
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    Boulevardier, this is not the politics forum, please don't post about politics again.

    EU Masters, privatisation, the GPO.

    This thread is about No. 16 Moore Street, thanks.

    Do not post off topic again.

    No one else is to reply off topic either.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,174 D
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    As far as I am aware there is a small museum in the GPO.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,375 Boulevardier
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    Des, this is a political topic. However, I wont labour the point.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 HellFireClub
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    When this all came up a few years ago, the authorities didn't seem to be too sure if the current no 16 Moore Street is the same property that was the 16 Moore Street of 1916... Has this been finally settled???


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 Fuinseog
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    The GPO museum idea was floated by FF a few years ago. Like most FF ideas, I do not like it.

    Postal services are being "opened up" to competition at the behest of our EU masters. As part of this process, the publicly-owned An Post is being run down.

    Taking An Post out of the GPO would serve that marginalising agenda very well.

    The GPO is a massive under used structure. there was talk of an art gallery or museum. A bit of culture on the main street of Dublin might not go astray. do we really need a post office that size? there are smaller ones all over the city, even around the corner in Parnell street.

    i am surprised that nothing was ever done with 16 moore street. to my knowledge while there is a wreath placed there around Easter there is no plaque. The pub at the end of the street where the surrender was made does have a plaque.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,449 nudger
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    Moore street has never looked so neglected, No16 included, I would be more than happy to see the street developed and a plaque or another piece of street art put in place to mark it's history.

    The area around the GPO and the GPO itself were offered to the Abbey Theatre as a new home for them, to be part of the 1916 centenary.
    It was offered to them around 3 years ago and plans were at an advanced stage, extensive studies have been carried out, but it was not popular with the public so has been staled.
    This, as an apology for missing out on a new site for their centenary in 2004. The government promised a new home, many sites were looked at, most of which have now been built on.
    The GPO is still on offer but how much would it cost?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 48 barrylyons


    Hi folks , i have read your thread with interest and although i am a bit late on the reply ,i hope I can answer some of your questions.

    1. 16 moore street is where the leaders met for the last time, the developer who is a member of the anglo golden circle has tried to discredit this by mis information . This is definately the house , Number 16.
    2. The whole terrace was part of a battlefield site and a lot of fighting went on here.after escaping from the GPO 300 or more including ,James Connolly on a stretcher , the young Michael Collins ,Tom clarke, Joe plunkett,Noel lemass,The Orahilly, went down Henry place, and into number 10. There was people killed along the way including civillians, as british had gun emplacements at the top of Moore lane and the top of Moore street.
    3 . This is one of the few places from 1916 that is as it was then , The Gpo was gutted and re built.
    4. the area has been let run down by the developer ,including at one stage ,someone took the roof off number 16. All of the tenants are on weekly leases. and no work is done to clean the area. It is in his interest to have it looking bad.
    5. Under the current plans submitted by the developer ,which as we speak are still been concidered.60% of the national monument will be demolished and the area in whic it sits will be forever lost,Imagine taking away 60% of newgrange?? or building a supermarket around it .
    The developer wants to Gut the interior, drop the floor ,and build over,under and around it. only the front of it will remain
    6. its hard to imagine ,but with a small amount of funding , the area if preserved would make a great historic and culture quarter, imagine re enactments, artizan shops, a battle trail...this is what tourists want to see.
    7. Every trick in the book has been employed ,including mis informing the public through the meidia,to push the planned demolition of the area. and its a bit like your man who . fought the giant.

    Quickly on the gpo, it was a post office in 1916 !!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,375 Boulevardier
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    I still think that

    (1) 16 Moore st was a place of defeat and surrender. My grandad fought in 1916 (South Dublin Union) but I would have little pride in any monument at Moore St.

    (2) The GPO, which already has a reasonable 1916 memorial in situ, should stay a post office. My reasons I are socio-political and apparently not welcome on this thread, but they are valid nonetheless.

    However, if people really want to preserve 16 moore St, I would not lose any sleep over it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 48 barrylyons


    Moore street has all ready been designated a national monument. it what the developer wants to do with it and the disregard he has shown . This guy owes us a fortune and now he wants to knock something that has been designated.

    My granfather fought in Jacobs, My great uncle and aunt at the green , The Thing about Moore street is not the defeat, but what was built out of the ashes of this. It was the last place where the first government of Ireland met .

    Who would want a supermarket there, with the profits going abroad, Think of the tourist potential of the area.

    Have you seen the 1916 section in the gpo .it is a tiny section at the back


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 FreudianSlippers
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    barrylyons wrote: »
    4. the area has been let run down by the developer ,including at one stage ,someone took the roof off number 16. All of the tenants are on weekly leases. and no work is done to clean the area. It is in his interest to have it looking bad.

    This area was left to rot a long time ago, so you can't blame the developer for that. The Ilac project was a complete disaster and Moore Street was completely under utilised. It's a shame the Carlton Cinema development is not going ahead with the caveat (now government protected) that the façades of significant Moore Street buildings be kept in tact - or, where possible, the entire building restored and incorporated into the development (a la Powerscourt Centre.
    5. Under the current plans submitted by the developer ,which as we speak are still been concidered.60% of the national monument will be demolished and the area in whic it sits will be forever lost,Imagine taking away 60% of newgrange?? or building a supermarket around it .
    That's slightly over the top in fairness.
    The developer wants to Gut the interior, drop the floor ,and build over,under and around it. only the front of it will remain
    From what I understand there is little salvageable from the interiors. Plus, they are not the original interiors in any event.

    The monument status of the building, however, will protect what is original from demolition.
    6. its hard to imagine ,but with a small amount of funding , the area if preserved would make a great historic and culture quarter, imagine re enactments, artizan shops, a battle trail...this is what tourists want to see.
    Unfortunately the Carlton Cinema development is no longer going ahead (indefinitely shelved) and this street along with the rest of North Dublin city centre is left to rot by a massive suburbanisation mentality and groups with vested interests in pushing people out of the city centre.

    The Mater development planning permission news yesterday is the final nail in the coffin for me with regard to Dublin ever being a good city again. I've given up even getting my hopes up that the city will be properly treated and revamped.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 48 barrylyons


    This area was left to rot a long time ago, so you can't blame the developer for that. The Ilac project was a complete disaster and Moore Street was completely under utilised. It's a shame the Carlton Cinema development is not going ahead with the caveat (now government protected) that the façades of significant Moore Street buildings be kept in tact - or, where possible, the entire building restored and incorporated into the development (a la Powerscourt Centre.

    Reply, The developer has to be held responsible as he has let the area run down for over 10 years ..as you pointed out about the ILAC ..The same developer owns that. and wants to link it to the carlton site. This same developer is a member of the ANGLO GOLDEN CIRCLE ..how can you defend such ??????

    Under the Current plans the Developer submitted it DOES encroach on 60% of the all ready designated National Monument..This is Fact not "a slight exageration"

    The interior of the building is the original otherwise it would have not recieved national monument status. However a fireplace was "removed " This is the very room in which the Provisional Gov met for the last time. it is unique ,whether you agree with the politics of the era or not it should be totally restored ...it would if it was in any other country.

    The Carlton development would Ruin the northside of Dublin..Why oh why would we want another ILac ...

    I cannot understand why anyone would support a member of the Anglo Golden Circle . Developers got the country into the mess we are in and yet you want us to put our trust in another .

    Dont be decieving the public with tactics. The only one with vested interests in Pushing people out of the city are ...Developers

    Moore street is a gem in the rough ..with litte investment it could bring a lot of needed footfall by way of tourism to the area.. Keep our city as a city not as some heartless steel and glass structure .

    They are shouting it from the Trees..Tourism is the way foreword...look at Kilmainham and the amount of tourists it brings in ......and they wanted to knock that years ago???


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,513 bb1234567
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    True I think Moore street could be a lovely street, how about first fix up the street, some nice trees and decorative lighting, then fix up store facades and make them attractive looking. Then get rid of the tacky indian and asian 2nd hand phone stores and takeaways and replace them with artisan shops, specialty food stores, cheesmongers,fish shop,butcher,bakery,cafes and nice restaurants and then a put in a gret museum and memorial in 16. moore street then it could be a really nice street:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 48 barrylyons


    I could be great, temple bar without the pubs, The cultural quarter of Dublin


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,417 Miguel_Sanchez
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    I'm working on a TV documentary about this very topic. Can't say much about it at the moment but I'll post details of when it's going to be aired closer to the time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 P. Breathnach
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    barrylyons wrote: »
    I could be great, temple bar without the pubs, The cultural quarter of Dublin
    And what happens when the businesses fail for want of customers?

    If the idea was commercially good (rather than just romantically appealing) Moore Street might be like that already.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 48 barrylyons


    I was in The ILAC last week at 11am and i thought there was a bomb scare, it was empty.
    The reason Moore street is run down is because of the carlton develpment plan. All of the shops are on a weekly lease...how could it be like that all ready?

    There is nothing romantic about the Birth of the Irish Nation been destroyed.

    This is a unique opportunity to do the right thing in this country for once.Even Leaving politics out of it , you have a streetscape that was laid out in 1780. it was built before ,O Connell st, The GPO, Parliament buildings, it pre dates the Famine,

    One of the Most important things to happen on Irish soil in the 20th century happened here..like it or lump it...and you have developers with profit on there mind looking at the short term gains to there wallets.
    Save our history , there is very little left


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 P. Breathnach
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    barrylyons wrote: »
    ... The reason Moore street is run down is because of the carlton develpment plan....
    I don't think so, although the development plan certainly doesn't help. That area has been run down for decades.

    I'm not seeking to defend what is there. It's just that I think an effort to elevate Moore Street to upmarket status with "artisan shops, specialty food stores, cheesmongers,fish shop,butcher,bakery,cafes and nice restaurants" is likely to fail.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 48 barrylyons


    Yes but tie that in with an Historic trail, The terrace properly preserved, perhaps even returned to the 1900 style of shop fronts. Advertising it as a Tourist Freedom trail ,It would bring a lot of footfall to the area...have you been to the Paris bakery in Moore st, It has expanded twice and is quiet full.
    of course you could not forget the street traders and what they bring to the are.

    But to be honest the most important thing is ,this is where Ireland comes from.. that alone is enough reason.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 FreudianSlippers
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    I don't think so, although the development plan certainly doesn't help. That area has been run down for decades.

    I agree with you that the carlton development isn't the cause, but how is it hurting? Is it just a general anti-urban renewal stance, or is there a valid reason that the proposed development (being blocked at every stage by anti-urbanisation people) would actually damage Moore Street.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 P. Breathnach
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    barrylyons wrote: »
    Yes but tie that in with an Historic trail, The terrace properly preserved, perhaps even returned to the 1900 style of shop fronts. Advertising it as a Tourist Freedom trail ,It would bring a lot of footfall to the area...have you been to the Paris bakery in Moore st, It has expanded twice and is quiet full.
    Tourist footfall (if there were much of it, something about which I am not convinced) would not contribute greatly to the takings of a specialist food shop such as a cheesemonger.
    of course you could not forget the street traders and what they bring to the are.
    I was wondering if you favoured allowing them to remain. Given that most of what they offer is cheap fruit and vegetables, I would again have doubts about a balanced mix of retail activities.
    But to be honest the most important thing is ,this is where Ireland comes from.. that alone is enough reason.
    Not for me, it isn't. I think there is a case for trying to ascertain if there is sufficient general support for the idea, backed by a willingness to pay for it.
    I agree with you that the carlton development isn't the cause, but how is it hurting? Is it just a general anti-urban renewal stance, or is there a valid reason that the proposed development (being blocked at every stage by anti-urbanisation people) would actually damage Moore Street.
    It is regrettable that commercial activity on Moore Street takes place on such an ad-hoc short-term model. If traders were given medium-term leases with some reasonable hope of renewal, they might be induced to invest a little and smarten up the shops. Easily said, but it is difficult to abrogate owners' rights to continue doing what they are doing now.

    All this is happening in a context where central Dublin is overshopped. If some traders were induced to locate in Moore Street, it would be at the cost of units elsewhere in the city centre falling empty.

    There are no easy solutions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 48 barrylyons


    Tourist footfall (if there were much of it, something about which I am not convinced) would not contribute greatly to the takings of a specialist food shop such as a cheesemonger.

    Look at Kilmainham
    I was wondering if you favoured allowing them to remain. Given that most of what they offer is cheap fruit and vegetables, I would again have doubts about a balanced mix of retail activities.

    yes of course they should remain ..maybe if the area was improved the food quality would ,however not all of the traders offer low quality
    Not for me, it isn't. I think there is a case for trying to ascertain if there is sufficient general support for the idea, backed by a willingness to pay for it.

    This is where 5 of the leaders of the 1916 rising met for the last time ,after that they were executed. That in itself is part of our past ..and it happened in the terraces of Moore street..there is no getting away from that ,whatever side you fall on politically


    The most outstanding point which i think is been missed ...if the carlton development was to go ahead There will be no moore street...what signals would that send out to develpers..Build where ever you want..Sure if a place is given National monument status it is ok to build on it , below it , to the sides of it ,

    A national monument is accorded certain protections under articles like the Venice charter ect.. but the signal we are giving out here is ... Cowboy builders and Golden circle cronie ism is still very Alive

    Would it not go against your principles if this Developer who was named as a member of the anglo Golden circle got the go ahead???


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 FreudianSlippers
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    barrylyons wrote: »
    The most outstanding point which i think is been missed ...if the carlton development was to go ahead There will be no moore street...what signals would that send out to develpers..Build where ever you want..Sure if a place is given National monument status it is ok to build on it , below it , to the sides of it ,

    A national monument is accorded certain protections under articles like the Venice charter ect.. but the signal we are giving out here is ... Cowboy builders and Golden circle cronie ism is still very Alive

    Would it not go against your principles if this Developer who was named as a member of the anglo Golden circle got the go ahead???

    I haven't looked at the plans now in circa 3 years, but I don't believe that is correct at all. Even a cursory look at this picture and you can see that where the current Carlton cinema is located, we have a new pedestrian street about 1.5 times as wide as Henry street going straight back into Moore street with demolition of (I think) 19 and 18 Moore Street - one hideous 70s building and a culturally insignificant and dilapidated building.

    1.jpg
    orig2.jpg


    If anything, a main artery into Moore street with good development of the pedestrian corridor would only help Moore Street.


    Edit: note that this shows relocation of the façade of the Carlton to the North.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 P. Breathnach
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    barrylyons wrote: »
    Look at Kilmainham
    What do we get from looking at Kilmainham? It's a greatly different tourism product. Even then, I don't see it driving a great deal of local retail.
    yes of course they should remain ..maybe if the area was improved the food quality would ,however not all of the traders offer low quality
    The Moore Street traders are savvy people: they will identify what the market requires, and deliver that. Their traditional market is very price-sensitive, and also expects reasonable quality. What you have in mind might cost them their present market, and perhaps not gain them something new.
    This is where 5 of the leaders of the 1916 rising met for the last time ,after that they were executed. That in itself is part of our past ..and it happened in the terraces of Moore street..there is no getting away from that ,whatever side you fall on politically
    I don't think anybody is trying to get away from that. I certainly am not. But that fact is the accidental outcome of the battle at the GPO. To my mind, that does not invest the site with any great significance, and I don't think it gives it any special tourism appeal. There are several other sites in Dublin that I would think more interesting or more significant to those with an interest in 1916.
    ...Would it not go against your principles if this Developer who was named as a member of the anglo Golden circle got the go ahead???
    What has the identity of the developer got to do with the intrinsic merits of a development proposal? Either an idea is good or it is not.

    As it happens, I am not particularly enthusiastic about such a development; as I said already, Dublin city centre is overshopped (and overofficed, and overapartmented). I entered this discussion to express my disagreement with bb1234567's suggestion of a particular alternative development strategy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 865 A Disgrace
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    That extra storey should go, and I'm not keen on the 'plaza' idea, it creates too much of a break in the building line. A covered laneway would be a better idea, leading into an enclosed plaza if needs be. The exisitng lanes around Moore St should be used too, with all the planned units being split into various architecturally sensitive standalone buildings rather that a giant shopping centre. Moore st itself might have a run down look to it, but it has a busy, multi-cultural vibe and this should be retained, along with the 1916 house as a small museum devoted not only to the Rising, but Irish independence overall


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 48 barrylyons


    I will say it once again,

    Under the current developers plans ..60% of what has been declared a national Monument..(HAS BEEN ALL READY DECLARED)will be built on..The proposal also cites that Directly underneath the NATIONAL MONUMENt be excavated and a 3 story carpark be installed.. Toilets and a kitchen area are to be placed in the national monument .

    The fact that a Developer, that has screwed this country ,is in NAMA ..owes the country 2.8 Billion ...(that is a lot of money). is entertained at all is beyond a mystry to me .

    This has nothing to do with an anti general urban renewal stance. this is about ripping the heart out of the city .an historic one at that.

    What do people want to see when they visit Dublin ...shopping centres or places of interest.

    Linking up the ILAC centre which has seen a dramatic decline in retail trade over this past 6 years with another devlopment into OConnell street will only suit the Developers wallet.

    Look at Parnell street ..at the rere of the ILAC..its a ghost street.

    The pictures you provided show sunny skys ,sure we dont get many 0f them over here....

    ALSO there is a planning application to Knock down the corner of OConnell and Henry street.

    Answer me this .... DO YOU SUPPORT THE DEVELOPER ..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 FreudianSlippers
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    barrylyons wrote: »
    I will say it once again,

    Under the current developers plans ..60% of what has been declared a national Monument..(HAS BEEN ALL READY DECLARED)will be built on..The proposal also cites that Directly underneath the NATIONAL MONUMENt be excavated and a 3 story carpark be installed.. Toilets and a kitchen area are to be placed in the national monument .

    As I said, I haven't seen the plans in about 3 years. I think what you're saying is factually incorrect, post the plans so and let's see if you're right or not.
    Otherwise we're going to go around in circles and you say one thing and I say the other.

    Just to pre-empt you saying "why don't you look for the plans?" Well, firstly, you're making the assertion. Secondly, you seem to have them handy since you're referring to them.

    The main reason I bring this up is because the permission granted clearly states that 14 to 17 Moore St must be preserved and the plans further show that block of houses will contain a a commemorative centre.

    The fact that a Developer, that has screwed this country ,is in NAMA ..owes the country 2.8 Billion ...(that is a lot of money). is entertained at all is beyond a mystry to me .
    Irrelevant to the design and pretty much everything to be honest.
    What do people want to see when they visit Dublin ...shopping centres or places of interest.
    Exactly, this project with it's commemorate centre to be built in the preserved and restored 14 - 17 Moore Street will be great. This is not a "shopping centre" we're talking about here, it's more akin to Henry Street or Grafton Street. It just makes me think you haven't actually seen the approved plans tbh.
    Linking up the ILAC centre which has seen a dramatic decline in retail trade over this past 6 years with another devlopment into OConnell street will only suit the Developers wallet.
    Developers exist to make money, surprise, they're not doing it for charity. What doesn't make money? Empty shopping centres and lots with no buildings sitting vacant for decades. This development only promotes the area and will hopefully bring in more quality shops etc. into Ilac as well.
    Look at Parnell street ..at the rere of the ILAC..its a ghost street.
    That's because it's underutilised and separated from the area.
    The pictures you provided show sunny skys ,sure we dont get many 0f them over here....
    :rolleyes:
    ALSO there is a planning application to Knock down the corner of OConnell and Henry street.
    It will never be approved. An Taisce has appealed as have many others. It's unrelated in any event.
    Answer me this .... DO YOU SUPPORT THE DEVELOPER ..
    Do I support the developer? I don't really care... they're a company. The project has nothing to do with the developer really.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 48 barrylyons


    I do not have a copy of the developers plans ...Do You

    I am been as accurate as i possibly can ..If you would be so kind as to point out the pieces which you seem to think are factually incorrect. If you happen to be refering to the fact that the Developer is encroaching on 60% of the national Monument ,this is a fact..if you pop up to the planning authorities you can see for yourself.

    I really dont understand the following and would be greatful if you could explain the following

    I said
    The fact that a Developer, that has screwed this country ,is in NAMA ..owes the country 2.8 Billion ...(that is a lot of money). is entertained at all is beyond a mystry to me .

    you replied
    Irrelevant to the design and pretty much everything to be honest.

    How could this be irrivelant , Its the developers plan , the same developer that owes 2.8 billion to the state ,The Developer who is in Nama , theAnglo golden Circle "

    This is probably on of the most relevant things.

    Again i would be greatful how this, according to your quote is Irrivelant.

    Does this not bother you

    If not ,why not
    Exactly, this project with it's commemorate centre to be built in the preserved and restored 14 - 17 Moore Street will be great. This is not a "shopping centre" we're talking about here, it's more akin to Henry Street or Grafton Street. It just makes me think you haven't actually seen the approved plans tbh.

    Have you seen plans for a commemoration centre..if so could you post them.

    I would also like to point out that No plans have been yet approved

    Be under no Illusion this is a Shopping Center. ....

    With no disrespect intended.. Maybe you need to have a look at the plans .they have them in the DCC planning office ,After all its been 3 years or more since you seen them.

    Could you explain why the Northside needs a new street.
    Do I support the developer? I don't really care... they're a company. The project has nothing to do with the developer really.

    Could you answer this.

    How has the Project got nothing to do with the developer .. That is a rather odd thing to say.It has everything to do with him ,That statement alludes to putting distance beteween the proposed development and the Member of the Anglo golden circle . once again i will ask

    How has this project got nothing to do with the Developer .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 504 Pacifist Pigeon
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    Why should we preserve the HQ of a terrorist insurgency that lead to the deaths of hundreds of people in Dublin City and surrounding areas during that tragic week. It reflects a bloody, painful and regrettable part of Irish history. If it serves no real or essential function I say it ought to be destroyed.

    And no, I'm not a troll.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 795 Alias G
    ✭✭✭


    Why should we preserve the HQ of a terrorist insurgency that lead to the deaths of hundreds of people in Dublin City and surrounding areas during that tragic week. It reflects a bloody, painful and regrettable part of Irish history. If it serves no real or essential function I say it ought to be destroyed.

    And no, I'm not a troll.

    One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter and all that. I'm personally grateful that I have never had to live under foreign rule. I think you would be in a distinct minority in not wishing to preserve structures of historical significance.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 48 barrylyons


    Why should we preserve the HQ of a terrorist insurgency that lead to the deaths of hundreds of people in Dublin City and surrounding areas during that tragic week. It reflects a bloody, painful and regrettable part of Irish history. If it serves no real or essential function I say it ought to be destroyed.

    And no, I'm not a troll

    You are more than entitled to this opinion............ but i could not disagree more .We were one of the first countries to free ourselves from an tyrannical Imperialistic great britan ,

    Would you really like to still be under British rule ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 907 Rashers
    ✭✭✭


    When this all came up a few years ago, the authorities didn't seem to be too sure if the current no 16 Moore Street is the same property that was the 16 Moore Street of 1916... Has this been finally settled???

    Before she died nurse Elizabeth O'Farrell pointed out the building herself. Can't get a better authentication than that IMO.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3 Breatnach


    There wasn't much fighting around there.

    A thought came to my head really about this. The GPO itself would be an excellent place for a museum/centre about 1916. Kick An Post out and send their HQ out to Clondalkin or somewhere else. The building is very much under-utilised by the public in terms of its potential.
    The paintings of the fighting there should be returned to the GPO and it should be included in historical tours, while continuing as a post office, as it was then.
    There was plenty of fighting between the GPO and the whole occupied parade in Moore Street. The O'Rahilly and others were actually killed in a charge on the British Army barricade at the end of Moore Street. A civilian was accidentally killed by the Volunteers there too. A plan for a diversionary attack to cover a mass breakout was on the point of being carried out when the decision to surrender was taken instead.
    Instead of marching out without their weapons, as required by the British, the Volunteers and ICA marched out in full military formation, to the fury of the British commander. They were then kept prisoner in the Rotunda grounds (ironically the birthplace of the Irish National Volunteers), near where Pearse had met the British commander to formally surrender.
    The whole area was a battleground and would be great for tourism if properly preserved and developed. Killmainham jail was allowed to fall into terrible disrepair until it was saved by voluntary work by a committee and handed over to the state for the fiftieth anniversary of the Rising. Now more people turn up to visit than it can actually accommodate -- and that is quite a distance from the city centre.
    Our politicians have no real interest in history and cannot understand that many other people do.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,609 stoneill
    ✭✭✭


    There wasn't much fighting around there.
    .
    ?

    The British Army had a machine gun post on Parnell Street at the top of Moore Street with withering fire at anything that moved. Nurse O'Farrell gives an account of a man leaving one of the houses under a white flag to try save his wife and kids, only to see him later dead under the white bed sheet he used as a flag when she was delivering messages between Pearse and the British.
    She also described the bodies of Dublin citizens lying about the street.
    Also The O'Rahilly was shot on Moore Street in a charge before he struggled into what is now called O'Rahilly Parade where he eventually died.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3 Breatnach


    Why should we preserve the HQ of a terrorist insurgency that lead to the deaths of hundreds of people in Dublin City and surrounding areas during that tragic week. It reflects a bloody, painful and regrettable part of Irish history. If it serves no real or essential function I say it ought to be destroyed.

    And no, I'm not a troll.

    You may not be a troll but you are certainly deficient in a sense of history or justice. Those Volunteers were formed to free Ireland from imperialist rule and the Irish Citizen Army was formed to defend workers from the attacks of the police at the behest of the capitalists. Together they fought for an independent and a better Ireland. That is admirable, not regrettable (except certainly by the British and their minions at the time and by colonially-minded people today). Not only did they do a great thing for the Irish people, they sent shock waves through the British Empire and inspired people as varied as the Ghandis, the Nehrus and others, including the those of the Connaught Rangers who mutinied in India. Would we had their like today!

    Apart from that, the city and area would greatly benefit commercially from tourist history trailing. The shopping in Henry Street is already sufficiently used and should there be a need for more, Talbot Street and Parnell Street could be developed better, as well as O'Connell Street itself. There is no need for the commercial centre being proposed and it would greatly damage the historical industry potential.


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