When is a Steam Train not a Steam Train?

stimpson

When it's a diesel...

After missing out over the last couple of years, I finally got some tickets for the RPSI Santa Express. They arrived this morning with a letter stating that they may substitute a diesel engine for the steam engine due to unforeseen circumstances. There is small print on the ticket saying no refunds or exchanges.

I'm pretty furious, as I'm after telling my son about the Steam train - how is he going to feel when a clockwork orange pulls up. What's worse is that I've paid €18 per ticket x 3 for the joy of steam and I may end up with the misery of diesel. If I wanted to go to Maynooth on a diesel train I could have taken him on a scheduled service for €3.40.

I know RPSI is a charity, but it's taking the piss.

LXFlyer

What do you expect them to do if the steam engine fails?

I think that there'd be more upset people if the entire train were cancelled.

foggy_lad

lxflyer wrote: »

What do you expect them to do if the steam engine fails?

I think that there'd be more upset people if the entire train were cancelled.

They should refund when people request a refund as the service paid for which is a steam train journey is not being provided! People who buy these tickets do have statutory rights.

BostonB

That should be a condition you agree to when you are buying the ticket. Not finding out until after you've paid for it, I assume can't be legal.

That said I've done it in the past. Nice little trip if expensive. I think we got mulled wine and a mince pie.

stimpson

BostonB wrote: »

That should be a condition you agree to when you are buying the ticket. Not finding out until after you've paid for it, I assume can't be legal.

That said I've done it in the past. Nice little trip if expensive. I think we got mulled wine and a mince pie.

I'd no problem paying 18 notes for an actual steam train. Looking on their website only 2 of the services have been affected - all the other Santa Express trains seem to be steam. Surely if they are down a train they could reschedule rather than just running a diesel.

BostonB

stimpson wrote: »

... they may substitute a diesel engine for the steam engine due to unforeseen circumstances.....

I didn't get the impression from your original post that is was a given. Is it now definite?

I assume rescheduling isn't that easy on a mainline track. Dunno did you ring and ask them.

Losty Dublin

stimpson wrote: »

When it's a diesel...

After missing out over the last couple of years, I finally got some tickets for the RPSI Santa Express. They arrived this morning with a letter stating that they may substitute a diesel engine for the steam engine due to unforeseen circumstances. There is small print on the ticket saying no refunds or exchanges.

I'm pretty furious, as I'm after telling my son about the Steam train - how is he going to feel when a clockwork orange pulls up. What's worse is that I've paid €18 per ticket x 3 for the joy of steam and I may end up with the misery of diesel. If I wanted to go to Maynooth on a diesel train I could have taken him on a scheduled service for €3.40.

I know RPSI is a charity, but it's taking the piss.

I'm just a working member of the RPSI and am not a committee member and somebody who will be working on said trip and if I can, I'd like to make a few points here in a purely personal capacity.

While all trips are advertised with the proposed locomotive to haul said trip, the RPSI never guarantees that motive power on any trip will be any specific loco on the day. The webside and booking forms on trips state this to be the case and given that we are using a small fleet of what are rather old steam locos, it's impossible to 100% assure to the public that there will be a steam loco on the day.

In this case the proposed steam loco, 461, has only recently been passed fit to run on the mainline again after a long lay off and overhaul, which took a little longer than expected. Last week she was on driver training and test runs around the Belfast region, this weekend will see her in Steam in Whitehead, our engineering HQ. Between next Sunday and Saturday week, 461 needs to be moved from Whitehead to Belfast in between service trains and onto Dublin, where Irish Rail's two trained steam drivers need to familiarise themselves with the loco and run some tests before they can take it on a passenger run with confidence. All of this may take longer than a week to do which is where it gets awkward for us. With this in mind, it is better to advise people in advance that there may be a diesel locomotive in lieu rather than have a situation of a diesel loco heading the train.

Lastly, it is worth pointing out that on the day, there is a hell of a lot more going on onboard than a regular scheduled train. You are getting a family day out, there is live music on board, some of the train staff will dress up and cause havoc, there is a shop and a fun raffle, there is a full bar with draught beer and mulled wine, a snack cafe serving tea/coffee and hot mince pies and fresh sandwiches, you are traveling on vintage carriages plus your children get to meet the man himself, Santa Claus. Even the aura of expectation on the platform at Pearse as people take in Christmas music which we have playing in the station, it's almost magical at times.

While I appreciate fully that no steam is a big loss, please look on it as a overall day out and package as well and make the most of it before making a call on it. Yes, it may be hard to tell a nipper that there isn't a steam engine on today but chances are that it will be forgotten within 5 minutes and that you will all have a ball and you will see why it books out months in advance.

stimpson

BostonB wrote: »

I didn't get the impression from your original post that is was a given. Is it now definite?

No - it says they won't know for definite until nearer the departure date. The website has Steam/Diesel down for all of the Saturday services. I was sure it only had 2 marked this morning...

I assume rescheduling isn't that easy on a mainline track. Dunno did you ring and ask them.

That makes sense I suppose. I'm just annoyed that the little fella and his friend are going to be disappointed - they are train mad (and I was looking forward to it myself)

stimpson

Losty Dublin wrote: »

While I appreciate fully that no steam is a big loss, please look on it as a overall day out and package as well and make the most of it before making a call on it. Yes, it may be hard to tell a nipper that there isn't a steam engine on today but chances are that it will be forgotten within 5 minutes and that you will all have a ball and you will see why it books out months in advance.

Thanks for the info. I appreciate there is a lot of work going into it and I apologise for having a rant. I'm sure it will be a great day.

Sorry for eh...letting off Steam

Run_to_da_hills

I would gladly pay €18 per ticket if a substituite A class loco turned up.

BostonB

Sounds like a lot of things have to happen, to make it happen on the day. Fair play to all involved. That said unless you are into trains, I don't think the entertainment is enough to make it worthwhile on it own.

That said kids of certain age are obsessed with trains, and they have a definite pecking order in what they prefer. Luas and steam is definitely high on the list, as are intercity trains. The regular diesels not so much. Maybe its the Thomas influence.

Incidentally, is there a list anywhere of cafes on trainlines? There one at ashtown which is great for keeping kids occupied while having a bite and a coffee.

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Lastly, it is worth pointing out that on the day, there is a hell of a lot more going on onboard than a regular scheduled train. You are getting a family day out, there is live music on board, some of the train staff will dress up and cause havoc, there is a shop and a fun raffle, there is a full bar with draught beer and mulled wine, a snack cafe serving tea/coffee and hot mince pies and fresh sandwiches, you are traveling on vintage carriages plus your children get to meet the man himself, Santa Claus. Even the aura of expectation on the platform at Pearse as people take in Christmas music which we have playing in the station, it's almost magical at times.

While I appreciate fully that no steam is a big loss, please look on it as a overall day out and package as well and make the most of it before making a call on it. Yes, it may be hard to tell a nipper that there isn't a steam engine on today but chances are that it will be forgotten within 5 minutes and that you will all have a ball and you will see why it books out months in advance.

Without putting a damper on what must be a great day out for the kids it sounds like it could get quite expensive as i dont expect the prices for anything to be reasonable apart from maybe the Draught Guinness. Ticket prices are fairly reasonable at under €20 each but add per person for mince pies and sambos, drinks, raffle tickets etc and it is not a cheap day out.

Losty Dublin

foggy_lad wrote: »

Without putting a damper on what must be a great day out for the kids it sounds like it could get quite expensive as i dont expect the prices for anything to be reasonable apart from maybe the Draught Guinness. Ticket prices are fairly reasonable at under €20 each but add per person for mince pies and sambos, drinks, raffle tickets etc and it is not a cheap day out.

Of course I trust that you have first hand knowledge of these "unreasonable" prices, haven't you?:rolleyes:

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Of course I trust that you have first hand knowledge of these "unreasonable" prices, haven't you?:rolleyes:

well no but a price list would be helpful for those thinking of making the trip. I trust you could arrange that?:rolleyes:

Losty Dublin

foggy_lad wrote: »

well no

As usual.

foggy_lad wrote: »

but a price list would be helpful for those thinking of making the trip. I trust you could arrange that?:rolleyes:

If the price of buying sandwiches, mince pies and tea worry you that much then contact our head office for more information on RPSI trains.

stimpson

In fairness there is a Santa pressie/drink/tea and mince pie/ glass of mulled wine included in the price. As long as any money is going to RPSI rather than CIE I'm not too worried.

Losty - if you hear anything about the loco being used could you post on the thread?

Drimnagh Road

071s fans are getting excited, yes it could well be a 201, but even a glimmer of hope of 071 haulage is enough to get excited about these days. We are on standby at short notice.

CIE

foggy_lad wrote: »

They should refund when people request a refund as the service paid for which is a steam train journey is not being provided! People who buy these tickets do have statutory rights.

As another poster here confirmed, organisations like RPSI always reserve the right to use substitute power and do not guarantee any particular locomotive to be running, so your "statutory rights" rant fails. Steam engines are very labour-intensive and maintenance-intensive. How much money and/or volunteer time are you giving to the RPSI to insure that any of their steam engines would be available for any particular event?

Cookie_Monster

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I would gladly pay €18 per ticket if a substituite A class loco turned up.

Amen, much better than a smelly puffing ugly old steamer...
Double headed 141s ftw!

Drimnagh Road

Word on the street is that 461 is scheduled to be moved South from Whitehead on Monday 5th of December.

There may be an empty carriage movement of Cravens from Dublin to Dundalk diesel hauled, the diesel comes back light engine, and 461 - having arrived at Dundalk from Whitehead - brings the Cravens back to Dublin. This will kill two birds with the one stone, simulating a test train for the crew to get familiar with her while getting the kettle to Dublin at the same time.

Niles

I would hope it will more than "simulate" a test train! It's ok, AFAIK there's already a kettle on the train... :rolleyes:

Salmon Leap

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

Word on the street is that 461 is scheduled to be moved South from Whitehead on Monday 5th of December.

There may be an empty carriage movement of Cravens from Dublin to Dundalk diesel hauled, the diesel comes back light engine, and 461 - having arrived at Dundalk from Whitehead - brings the Cravens back to Dublin. This will kill two birds with the one stone, simulating a test train for the crew to get familiar with her while getting the kettle to Dublin at the same time.

Thanks for that, DR. My tickets for the Santas are for the 17th. I have been following her progress on various sites so hopefully we will be in luck!

parsi

Same old , same old from the Nordies..

Never interested in talking with those who didn't have a devotion to the GNR or UTA.

Niles

parsi wrote: »

Same old , same old from the Nordies..

Never interested in talking with those who didn't have a devotion to the GNR or UTA.

Was anyone devoted to the UTA? I always got the impression it was one of the more hated of Irish railway operators.

I don't know if you're referring to the RPSI when you say Nordies, it's as much a Northern organisation as a Republic one. I've only a passing knowledge of the GNR myself, even less about the UTA.

The reason for the uncertainty surrounding whether or not the Santas will be steam hauled is that 461 has to be approved by an external body, the DRD (the Northern equivalent of the Railway Safety Committee here) have to approve the loco before it can be used on a mainline passenger train. Obviously the RPSI have little control over them doing this. The loco itself has been in working order since late summer, but the Society had been awaiting DRD and NIR approval for some time since then. There's also the matter of the loco having so far only been able to do a small amount of running in. There are no longer any facilities to do major repairs on steam locos in the Irish Republic so if the loco was to fail over a 100 miles away from Whitehead you imagine the problems that could arise.

Believe me, everything that can be done is being done, nobody likes disappointing a train full of children. Yes there isn't a lot of information out there, simply because it's not clear at the moment. But believe me, if there was a way around this it would have been done. Some may remember two years ago the Northern line was closed due to the Malahide viaduct collapse. At the time No.4 was trapped north of the border, and there was the risk that she would not be able to get down in time for December. It might have been easy just to look at hiring a diesel, but there was actually a standby plan to have a low-loader bring the engine to Dublin, despite the fact that such an operation would have been far more expensive than simply hiring an IÉ diesel. As it happened the viaduct was re-opened in time and there was no need, but it illustrates the point that all realistic efforts are made to ensure steam operation. If they do end up diesel hauled, I genuinely feel sorry for those who will be disappointed - hopefully they will still able to enjoy the craic to be had on board, and of course meeting a certain man in red. It's an unfortunate situation, but as I said people do try their best to ensure that trains are steam hauled, but sometimes these things can't be avoided.

Any comments I've made are purely in a personal capacity, and not an official statement.

foggy_lad

Will the impending strike action north of the border affect the Santa trains?

Salmon Leap

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

Word on the street is that 461 is scheduled to be moved South from Whitehead on Monday 5th of December.

There may be an empty carriage movement of Cravens from Dublin to Dundalk diesel hauled, the diesel comes back light engine, and 461 - having arrived at Dundalk from Whitehead - brings the Cravens back to Dublin. This will kill two birds with the one stone, simulating a test train for the crew to get familiar with her while getting the kettle to Dublin at the same time.

I saw a response from poster "RPSI" to your post on IRN. (I'm not registered on there but read it regularly). If 461 is apparently not yet cleared for mainline running by NIR, how come the RPSI were able to take her out around Belfast on a test run a couple of weekends ago? Am I missing something somewhere?

Niles

foggy_lad wrote: »

Will the impending strike action north of the border affect the Santa trains?

AFAIK that strike is only scheduled for next Wednesday, so I don't imagine it will.

Salmon Leap wrote: »

I saw a response from poster "RPSI" to your post on IRN. (I'm not registered on there but read it regularly). If 461 is apparently not yet cleared for mainline running by NIR, how come the RPSI were able to take her out around Belfast on a test run a couple of weekends ago? Am I missing something somewhere?

That test run would have been part of the approval process, they are still awaiting to hear back as to whether the engine is passed. Similar to the way IÉ have new railcars on test runs before they are actually approved for operation.

Drimnagh Road

I'm glad that we have heard off the RPSI, because I don't like "word on the streets" or speculation. But, without clarification then that's what happens. And I think the RPSI owe it to their customers to explain. "Unforseen circumstances" as was quoted on the tickets isn't really good enough.

And sometimes the only way to get a response is to post what is doing the rounds, that generally generates a response very quickly. Most rail enthusiasts will always share information, be it coming from somebody who works within or "reliable source" which in turn is filtered on by e-mail, word of mouth, posted on enthusiast sites etc.

These could be items such as unusual workings etc so photographers can go out - except for a few who think they are elitest by witholding information so they can put "exclusive" stuff on their websites - which is a little sad, as it's only a train.

Losty Dublin

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

I'm glad that we have heard off the RPSI, because I don't like "word on the streets" or speculation. But, without clarification then that's what happens. And I think the RPSI owe it to their customers to explain. "Unforseen circumstances" as was quoted on the tickets isn't really good enough.

And sometimes the only way to get a response is to post what is doing the rounds, that generally generates a response very quickly. Most rail enthusiasts will always share information, be it coming from somebody who works within or "reliable source" which in turn is filtered on by e-mail, word of mouth, posted on enthusiast sites etc.

These could be items such as unusual workings etc so photographers can go out - except for a few who think they are elitest by witholding information so they can put "exclusive" stuff on their websites - which is a little sad, as it's only a train.

All customers for RPSI trains who received tickets on the relevant trains got letters informing them of the situation; there isn't any need to inform anybody else, least of all those who are not traveling and as such will be unaffected by any change of travel arrangements. The one and only post on this forum talking about "word on the street" or insider information came from yourself, a post which was rightly rebutted by the RPSI on IRN.

Niles

In the case of the unusual working mentioned earlier (461's transfer) nothing is set in stone... nothing elitist about it, just by the nature of the situation it's difficult for an exact answer to be given. It may or may not go ahead depending on whether or not 461 is passed for operation, among other factors like running in.

As for being aware of unusual workings, these are often mentioned in the RPSI members' e-mail bulletin when confirmed (the above operation isn't confirmed though), so there is often a chance for people to go out and get their pics. But as I said, nothing is certain at the moment, better let passengers know there's a chance of diesel haulage with the tickets than say nothing and let them have a nasty surprise on the day.

I should probably point out that my comments are from a personal perspective, and not an official statement.

corktina

should this be in Train and Rail do you think?