IRA bank robberies during the War of Independence

Rebelheart

I was reading up on Cabinteely House and discovered that it was owned by one Joe McGrath who became very wealthy by founding the Irish Sweepstakes.

A google of McGrath came up with a Wikipedia page where there is this uncited remark:

'He was also a member of the Irish Republican Army, the guerrilla army of the Irish Republic, and successfully organised many bank robberies during the Irish war of Independence (1919–1921), where a small percentage of the proceeds was retained as a reward by him and his fellow-soldiers.'

Does anybody know any more about IRA bank robberies during the War? I'd be surprised if they didn't need to rob more than a few considering they were taking on a country which had military resources from robbing 20% of the planet earth from other people.

Anybody know more about this topic, however?

CDfm

George Plant springs to mind with bank robberies in the 1930's.

Now the Irish Hospital Sweepstakes operation was a real moneyspinner for McGrath

THE year is 1930, and on the flickering black-and-white screen two blind boys are reaching into a giant metal drum to pull tickets from the deluge of entries in the inaugural Irish Sweepstakes. Around their necks, on large unwieldy placards, are their names - "Peter" and "Willie". The boys, students at St Joseph's School in Drumcondra, have been selected for a single purpose. Blind, grasping for tickets they cannot see, they are demonstrably unable to cheat.
Today, to a more enlightened audience, the image is naive, and the cynicism and exploitation behind it almost unimaginable. The Irish Sweeps, touted around the world as a charity launched to help a nascent health care system, has long been exposed as one of the country's greatest scandals. Of the millions that poured in, it has been estimated that less than one tenth went to hospitals. The remainder turned rich men into multimillionaires, and created law enforcement problems on both sides of the Atlantic.
Across 30 years, stories of the Sweepstakes empire have been legion. Journalist Joe MacAnthony, who first exposed the debacle in this newspaper in 1973, revealed how a Canadian policeman once told him of the astonishing wealth of one ticket distributor whose house was raided by police. When his dog soiled an expensive oriental rug, the distributor just laughed and told them: "When he does that, I just roll up the carpet and throw it out. Then I buy another one".
For decades, the greed that propelled the Irish Sweeps soiled Ireland's image around the world. In an RTE Hidden History documentary last week, those who investigated the story remembered how it propagated the perception of Ireland as a country of rogues. The American edition of Reader's Digest once described the Sweeps as "the greatest bleeding heart racket in the world".
The scope of it was breathtaking. While the betting operation purported to be run for charity - and underlined the notion at every turn by using nurses and gardai to lend legitimacy to its draws - its true purpose was to create huge profits for a core of influential schemers.
Three men launched the Sweepstakes: Dublin bookie Richard Duggan, Welsh-born Captain Spencer Freeman and celebrated republican Joseph McGrath, once an associate of Michael Collins.
Government legislation giving the state's blessing to the plan was so full of loopholes that the Sweepstakes' organisers could leave enormous sums undeclared as expenses. Perhaps the biggest irony of all was that while the promoters were not liable for tax in Ireland, the hospitals had to fork out a quarter of their comparative pittance to the revenue commissioners.
How could it happen? As complaints poured in from America and Britain, where gambling was illegal, the promoters flaunted the Sweeps, launching lavish Mardi Gras-style parades in Dublin. Tickets were smuggled into America and sold illegally. Much of the money never came back to Ireland.
The plan suited successive Irish governments who were unprepared to fund hospitals from normal revenue, but there were other, darker reasons for the extraordinary leeway the promoters enjoyed.



http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/irish-sweepstake-scandal-remains-a-lesson-to-us-all-497325.html

Around 10% of the sweepstake money reached hospitals and the proceeds to McGrath and his business partners were tax free.

You cant run fundraising like that without high commision.

As a teen & student I used to get 30 to 50% on tickets sold at GAA stadia . I needed the money and people would not show up in bad weather.

Distribution costs are expensive and I imagine that as a cash business they just got away with it.

CDfm

Here is something from the National Libraries Liam Lynch letters archive and the Millstreet Bank Robbery

MS36,251/10
30 May 1920
1p.
Written from: Mallow.
Signed: ‘LL’.
Comments on the recent capture of the Millstreet bank robbers by the Volunteers’ Millstreet Battalion and the local Republican police, mentioned by Tom in his last letter − ‘did you dream that it was I got this in motion & was through it, in fact we will not finnish (sic) this for some time longer. This case has set all Ireland on like jobs ever since . . . We have now double enemies (sic) the last perhaps worse than the old.’ (On 27 April Liam had presided over a special Court before which eight prisoners were tried for the robbery on 17 November 1919. Following the investigation co-ordinated by Lynch, the robbers were tried and sentenced to deportation. All of the money recovered was returned to the banks.) ‘Bobbies have threatened to track us down to death, in fact we got a list on one having 22 down for execution including a priest. Will arrange where you can stay with me for a few days during holidays (sic) when we can have a long chat.’

http://www.nli.ie/pdfs/mss%20lists/109_LiamLynch.pdf

So it looks like bank robbery was not condoned and probably as it would undermine the nationalists credibility. and support so the bank robbery thing on the face of it seems to be false.

CDfm

Rebelheart wrote: »

A google of McGrath came up with a Wikipedia page where there is this uncited remark:
?

Nice find.

You may wish to do the honours and dispute the remark with Wikipedia as bank robberies were not sanctioned up to mid 1920 at least (if it ever did happen) so there is a reason for you to contact wikipedia to dispute is accuracy .

who the fug

Re the sweepstakes they nearly resulted in Irish Shipping vessels being banned from the US, soon after the racket was switched to Icelandic boats

The US Coastguard black gang gave Irish vessels a hard time.

ejmaztec

How much more fiddling and corruption went on in the early days? They obviously set a precedent for the future.

CDfm

who the fug wrote: »

Re the sweepstakes they nearly resulted in Irish Shipping vessels being banned from the US, soon after the racket was switched to Icelandic boats

The US Coastguard black gang gave Irish vessels a hard time.

There is more

n addition, there are main distributors and sub-distributors who receive payments which the police believe is at least $3 per book of twelve. The Sweep in ticket distribution also operates the largest smuggling ring outside of the Mafia which involves payments to seamen, longshoremen, railway, postal officials and sometimes customs officers, according to a French Canadian police officer in Montreal in a published newspaper report.

The looseness, which seems to characterize the operations of the Sweep promoters in Canada, has allowed occasional criminals to creep into the network. The police in Toronto confirm this although they say that most of the organisers have no criminal records and are descended from the original Irish ring of former I.R.A. men who distributed the tickets back in the 1930's.

Here is the link

http://www.mediabite.org/article_Where-the-Sweeps-Millions-Go_95751000.html

CDfm

ejmaztec wrote: »

How much more fiddling and corruption went on in the early days? They obviously set a precedent for the future.

It was enshrined in legislation

These disclosures are only part of what must be one of the most extraordinary, yet least publicised, stories in modern Irish history.

For the facts show:

- that the Act which licences the Sweep was so framed as to prevent the Irish public knowing the real amount of money spent in running the scheme.- that the figures published by Hospitals Trust (1940) Ltd after each sweepstake are considerably less than the true amount involved.
- that the hospitals receive only 75% of the sum described as the Hospital Fund - because the only tax on the Sweep is taken from the hospitals not the organisers.
- that agents of Hospitals Trust Ltd. are engaged in selling tickets abroad at prices far above those sanctioned by the Minister for Justice.

HellsAngel

Did Fianna Fail have a role in setting up the Sweepstakes ? Did they through taxes or whatever get their cut out of it ??

who the fug

Was talking about this the afternoon with the old fella, and he said the Sweep Stakes was always a First Mate & Chief Steward joint venture with a consideration to the Captain.

On one vessel which was a regular on the North Atlantic run which had two potable (Drinking Water) tanks, they only used one and removed the location of the other from the ships drawings handed to US customs.

ejmaztec

CDfm wrote: »

It was enshrined in legislation

Sounds like there was a misinterpretaion of two wrongs not making a right.

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

Nice find.

You may wish to do the honours and dispute the remark with Wikipedia as bank robberies were not sanctioned up to mid 1920 at least (if it ever did happen) so there is a reason for you to contact wikipedia to dispute is accuracy .

And Wikipedia is always so concerned with being accurate! :pac:

Anyone can go on Wiki and post/edit in and out, whatever they want - which is why it is a notoriously unreliable source.

CDfm

The science museum in the UK does not look unkindly on our little tax the poor prizegame.

Lets not forget that it was a 3rd World Country with a first world prizes

.

Irish hospitals' sweepstake

Irish Hospitals Sweepstake draw, 1933.

Credits:Central Press/Getty Images


Add image to my collection


The Irish hospitals' sweepstake was a horse-racing based lottery established in the Irish Free State in 1930 to build new hospitals and improve facilities in existing ones. During the 1930s alone gross income from the sweepstake was £71 million, of which £45 million was allocated in prizes and £13.5 million to hospital building.
The sweepstake’s promoters realised that serious profits would only be made if substantial numbers of tickets could be sold abroad. Initially, Britain was the principal market, in spite of laws prohibiting sweepstakes. Alarmed at the amount of money leaving the country, the British government passed the Betting and Lotteries Act in 1934 to curb the sweepstake, and, following the introduction of football pools, sales of tickets in Britain decreased significantly. The phrase ‘winning the Irish sweepstake’ became a byword for good luck and was the theme of many American and British films, cartoons, novels and plays, especially during the 1930s and 1940s.
However, the sweepstake did not have an entirely beneficial impact on Ireland’s international image. Complaints were made by foreign governments of illegal activities, including bribery, being used to sell tickets in countries that outlawed gambling, causing much embarrassment to the Irish government. The survival of the sweepstake was assured by the cultivation of a strong North American market. The gradual legalisation of lotteries in the USA from the 1960s precipitated the demise of the sweepstake. It closed in 1987 and was replaced by the present-day Irish National Lottery.


http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/broughttolife/techniques/irishhospitals.aspx

I think its unfair that everyone is picking on the nursies.

The image that was portrayed - policemen and nurses !!!

Student Nurses
By [EMAIL=""]Mary Blackshire[/EMAIL]
11, May 2004 - 01:32

[EMAIL="?subject=Student%20Nurses&body=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.castlebar.ie%2FMBlackshire%2FStudent_Nurses_1667.shtml"]Email this article[/EMAIL]
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This is a photo of me as a student nurse in Dr Steevens Hospital ~1968. (Love that uniform). The second photo is taken in 1970 at the Irish Hospital Sweepstakes. My friend and fellow student nurse Noel Murray-Kavanagh (Cork) and I were chosen from Steevens Hospital to draw a ticket. This photo was in very bad shape and was kindly restored by Ferdia Riordan, a friend of mine from Roscommon. I would really like to know if there are any other Mayo or Castlebar Nurses in this photo. If you recognise anyone let me know.

indioblack

Rebelheart wrote: »

I was reading up on Cabinteely House and discovered that it was owned by one Joe McGrath who became very wealthy by founding the Irish Sweepstakes.

A google of McGrath came up with a Wikipedia page where there is this uncited remark:



Does anybody know any more about IRA bank robberies during the War? I'd be surprised if they didn't need to rob more than a few considering they were taking on a country which had military resources from robbing 20% of the planet earth from other people.

Anybody know more about this topic, however?

Wow! 20% of the planet earth eh?
With resources like that the IRA would have had to rob Fort Knox.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

And Wikipedia is always so concerned with being accurate! :pac:

Anyone can go on Wiki and post/edit in and out, whatever they want - which is why it is a notoriously unreliable source.

I thought it would be a nice idea for someone to have a wikirant and do the superior thing.

You know so the wiki gets headed the impartiality of this is in doubt etc.

You make it sound like smug superiority is a bad thing.

iMax

The national lottery runs on the same basis. Only a small portion of receipts actually go to good causes. I think it's about 15%. About 45% goes to prizes. The balance goes to administration (Salaries/IT/Rewards for shopkeepers etc) & the government.

The above about the sweeps is fascinating, & sadly, does not surprise me. I've been saying for years that we're a nation of "gougers", out to get what we can, when we can with no eye on down the road. Our biggest asset was an international image of the Irish being slightly backward when in fact we were "cute hoors" (as my dad would say).

Simarillion

I can't give you any specifics about banks but IRA robberies througout the 20th century is the reason that the Defence Forces still escort SecuriCorp vans to the bank. It's the only incident of a state body being used to ensure the safety of private money (except the Garda in day-to-day stuff).

I can say that my Great-Uncle ran one of the largest construction companies in the Free State. In 1922 he was being driven to a site in Dublin with his accountant and secretary to deliver the monthly wage for a few hundred men, and the car was ambushed and fired upon by the IRA. They hit the doors and the tyres and took off with the money. He ran off after them but they fired back at him so he had to jump behind a wall.
I've no idea why he was carrying the money personally, but apparently ambushing wage clerks for businesses became a common practise for the IRA

CDfm

The OP is about the War of Independence, and, bank robbery wasn't on.

The armed guard thing is fairly recent - mid 80's I would say.

who the fug

CDfm wrote: »

The OP is about the War of Independence, and, bank robbery wasn't on.

The armed guard thing is fairly recent - mid 80's I would say.

mid seventies I would reckon

CDfm

Listening to the History Programme tonight armed robberies came up.

What they said was it did occur,during the war of independence, and that there was a breakdown in civil law.

They also metioned that there were payroll robberies and other crimes such as jewelery robberies perpetrated by members of the forces as well as by civilians.

They were not excluding rebels from this either.

What they said was that they had no prosecutions .

Fcek, am I becoming a revisionist ????

Nhead

CDfm wrote: »

Listening to the History Programme tonight armed robberies came up.

What they said was it did occur,during the war of independence, and that there was a breakdown in civil law.

They also metioned that there were payroll robberies and other crimes such as jewelery robberies perpetrated by members of the forces as well as by civilians.

They were not excluding rebels from this either.

What they said was that they had no prosecutions .

Fcek, am I becoming a revisionist ????

Yes mwah ha ha

pedroeibar1

CDfm wrote: »

They also metioned ...............other crimes such as jewelery robberies perpetrated by members of the forces as well as by civilians.

They were not excluding rebels from this either.

Theft of jewellery became a contentious issue both for the owners and the fledgling State. Due to the troubled nature of the times, the insurers would not pay up. All claims for damage during the ‘Troubles’ were investigated by the courts under the terms of the Damage to Property (Compensation) Act, 1923.
The right to compensation was limited to damage done to property and there were significant exclusions, a major one being jewellery. So any ‘lost’ heirlooms were unrecompensed.
P.

CDfm

Simarillion wrote: »

I can say that my Great-Uncle ran one of the largest construction companies in the Free State. In 1922 he was being driven to a site in Dublin with his accountant and secretary to deliver the monthly wage for a few hundred men, and the car was ambushed and fired upon by the IRA. They hit the doors and the tyres and took off with the money. He ran off after them but they fired back at him so he had to jump behind a wall.
I've no idea why he was carrying the money personally, but apparently ambushing wage clerks for businesses became a common practise for the IRA

The guys on the radio mentioned a historian called Gleason ? and someone called Hickey who researches the RIC. So I wonder if that is a Garda Historian.

They also mentioned an American based in Cork John Borgonovo who has looked at the issue.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Theft of jewellery became a contentious issue both for the owners and the fledgling State. Due to the troubled nature of the times, the insurers would not pay up. All claims for damage during the ‘Troubles’ were investigated by the courts under the terms of the Damage to Property (Compensation) Act, 1923.
The right to compensation was limited to damage done to property and there were significant exclusions, a major one being jewellery. So any ‘lost’ heirlooms were unrecompensed.
P.

Interesting , do you have any links to this.

I wonder how insurance companies treated the issue at the time ?

pedroeibar1

CDfm wrote: »

Interesting , do you have any links to this.

I wonder how insurance companies treated the issue at the time ?

Most of what I know about this comes from research I did on the burning of a local ‘Big House’ in 1922 and the subsequent court cases for compensation.

After the civil unrest of the ‘Troubles’ & particularly the burnings of Big Houses in ’22, the British insurers (there were no ‘Irish’ insurance companies at that time) inevitably denied liability. Insurers always base decisions on their policy wordings; they pay out only if there is a ‘covered loss’. War and civil disturbance are standard exclusions from most insurance policies. Just as HM Govt. has paid out millions as a result of damage in N. Irl in recent decades, it fell to our newly-born State to pay for the Troubles. This led to the 1923 Act (a very early Act on our Statute Books) ; jewellery is excluded by Section 7 of that Act, here http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1923/en/act/pub/0015/sec0007.html#sec7

Rs
P.

CDfm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Most of what I know about this comes from research I did on the burning of a local ‘Big House’ in 1922 and the subsequent court cases for compensation.



Rs
P.

Thank you.

I would love to hear more, any links perhaps and tales of drunken merry japes or of feudin in the Bog of Allen.

I am starved for historical skullduggery.

ejmaztec

I was speaking with a descendant of one of the employees who was working in this particular house, where Arthur Vicars lived in disgrace after the Irish Crown Jewels were stolen. When the house was in flames, anything that could be rescued, in the way of paintings etc, was removed from the house and leaned up against a garden wall. A lot of these items apparently disappeared across the fields, never to be seen again.

It also seems to disputed that the IRA had anything to do with the shooting, burning and pillaging, because on local heresay, the nearest units denied any involvement.

There's nothing left of the house now, but you can just about see the layout of the gardens.

The house was supposed to be similar to Muckross, and had it not been destroyed, the local tourist industry in North Kerry would have benefited enormously.

I wonder how many of these incidents had purely criminal motives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Vicars

During the Irish War of Independence Vicars was known to entertain members of the British Army at his house. This led to his being targeted by the IRA. In May 1920 up to a hundred armed men broke into Kilmorna House and held Vicars at gunpoint while they attempted to break into the house's strongroom. On 14 April 1921 he was taken from Kilmorna House which was set alight and shot dead in front of his wife. According to the communique issued from Dublin Castle, thirty armed men took him from his bed and shot him, leaving a placard around his neck denouncing him as an informer. On 27 April, as an 'official reprisal', four shops were destroyed by Crown Forces in the town of Listowel. The proclamation given under Martial law and ordering their demolition also stated;

CDfm

ejmaztec wrote: »

I was speaking with a descendant of one of the employees who was working in this particular house, where Arthur Vicars lived in disgrace after the Irish Crown Jewels were stolen.


I wonder how many of these incidents had purely criminal motives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Vicars

On the criminal motives, lots I would say.

The Wiki refers to Arthur Vicars Will that is in the National Archives

http://www.nationalarchives.ie/topics/crown_jewels/VicarsWill/1/will.html

And a few related items including a memo from the Department of the Taoiseach in 1927 that the Regalia and Insignia of the Knights of St Patrick a/k/a the Irish Crown Jewels had come up for sale.

http://www.nationalarchives.ie/topics/crown_jewels/gallery.html

CDfm

Here is a piece from the Examiner

Largest ever robbery

By Scott Millar
Saturday, February 28, 2009
YESTERDAY’S heist of €7.2 million is the largest armed robbery in the history of the state.
Large cash robberies have a long history in the country, with the last 40 years in particular seeing a substantial increase.

* Prior to the mid-1960s armed robbery was largely unheard of, apart from some IRA raids during the early 1920s and 1940s.

* The first major bank robberies of modern times were carried out by the Dublin-based Republican splinter group Saor Eire.

In 1967 there was only one armed robbery, a Saor Eire raid on the Royal Bank in Drumcondra, Dublin.

* In 1969 Saor Eire robbed the Northern Bank in Kells setting up roadblocks to cut off the town.A similar operation was carried out in Rathdrum, Co Wicklow in 1970.

* In May, 1969 an estimated £25,000 was taken in an armed robbery of a security van at Dublin Airport. The IRA was implicated.

* The onset of the Northern troubles saw a massive upsurge in armed robbery in the Republic with paramilitary groups joined by a new generation of criminals in heists.

* From 1972 to 1978 most years saw over 100 armed robberies in the south, notable heists included Clondalkin Paper Mills in August 1974 which netted £50,000 and the £150,000 taken at Heuston Station in 1978.

* With more security and the development of police tactics, the frequency of armed robberies declined in the 1980s.

* The early 1980s saw robberies in the North begin to involve families being kidnapped to force post office or bank officials to aid criminals, these would later become known as "tiger kidnappings."

* In 1992 a new record was set when Provisional IRA gunmen took £2.1m from the AIB in Lisduggan, Waterford.

* The mid-1990s saw another upsurge. In 1995 there were 171 armed robberies. These included a north Dublin gang taking £4m in a raid on the Brinks Allied security depot in Clonshaugh in Coolock, north Co Dublin.

* In December 2004 the Provisional IRA took stg£26.5 million from the Northern bank in central Belfast. A bank worker’s family was held captive.

The employee was later acquitted of involvement in the crime.

* In March, 2005, €2.7m was taken in a security van raid in Dublin.

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/idojgbaugb/#ixzz1Z5FPtuug

And while a bit off topic

. Garda Patrick Joseph O’Halloran was shot dead in 1924 in Baltinglass, in Deputy Timmins’s home county of Wicklow, while attempting to arrest two armed bank raiders.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/debate/?id=2005-04-20.452.0

pedroeibar1

CDfm wrote: »

Thank you.

I would love to hear more, any links perhaps and tales of drunken merry japes or of feudin in the Bog of Allen.

I am starved for historical skullduggery.

Lots of stories ............. one side supposedly had occupied the ‘Big House’ as ‘protectors’ but when the opposing side appeared with cans and matches, the ‘minders’ either ran or changed sides, depending on who tells the story. A fortune was made by the local who placed barrels under the drainpipes, as the molten lead from the valleys flowed down and filled them, for removal later.

My favourite is about a local woman who, able to carry only one armchair out of the burning house, hid it in the shrubbery and returned for its match. Carrying the second chair back to where she left the first she discovered it gone and announced ‘Lor, there’s nothing around but bloody thieves around here!’
Rs
P.

CDfm

The image we have of Ireland circa Independence is that of a crime free country where the only crime was British occupation.

Are there any real crime statistics for that time.

And you get this

TV show focuses on Garda murder
BOTCHED 1924 BANK ROBBERY RECREATED AROUND BALTINGLASS


Wednesday May 04 2011

THE FINAL episode of a TG4 docudrama series features the historical murder of a member of the Gardai in Baltinglass in January 1924.

Garda Patrick O'Halloran was shot as he gave chase to two raiders attempting to escape from the scene of a botched bank raid at the National Bank in Baltinglass, now the Bank of Ireland.

On Tuesday May 10 at 10 p.m. the final episode of the Ceart agus Coir series will re-enact the murder. Midas Productions filmed the re-enactment earlier in the year in the exact same spot on the bridge on the Main Street of Baltinglass where the murder initially took place.

The story focuses on Felix McMullen, who was 26 years old when he was convicted of killing civic guard, Patrick O'Halloran, while attempting to escape after the bank robbery in Baltinglass. After two trials, McMullen was hanged on August 1, 1924.

Peter Jordan, who also took part in the raid was 29 years old and had also been a Captain of the Special Infantry Corps. He was in the 'old IRA' and was a National School teacher.

A doctor attended Guard O'Halloran at the scene. A bullet had entered through his abdomen and exited through the top of his right buttocks. At the scene, O'Halloran was in a weak, collapsed condition and complained of great pain.

The day after he was shot O'Halloran, succumbed to his injuries in the Curragh Military Hospital.

He died as a result of several internal injuries caused by the bullet wound. His bladder had been pierced and the abdomen was full of blood, he bled profusely especially from the bladder wound. He died at 3 p.m. the day after the attack.

http://www.wicklowpeople.ie/news/tv-show-focuses-on-garda-murder-2638455.html

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

The image we have of Ireland circa Independence is that of a crime free country where the only crime was British occupation.

Are there any real crime statistics for that time.

And you get this

There seems to be a blurring here in the discussion between criminal and political actions. At least I am getting confused.

Actual crime in Ireland after independence - during the 1940s and 50s - was virtually non existent when you compare it to today. Many people of my generation essentially think the place has gone crazy. As kids we just played outdoors everywhere as long as you showed up home for meals everything was fine. All kids walked by themselves to school from age 4 or 5. It really was a safer world.

I can only remember one murder in Dublin during my childhood and early adulthood and that was the notorious Shan Mohangi murder in 1963. He was a South African medical student who murdered the 15 year old Hazel Mullen and chopped up her body. That made huge headlines and was talked about for years.