The Citizens Guide To Surviving Police Encounters

ronan45

Hi All

I came across this documentary on a great Site. It is an american documentary but does the same apply in relation to Ireland and the Gardai?

http://documentaryheaven.com/busted-the-citizens-guide-to-surviving-police-encounters/

MagicSean

Different laws. Stupid video. Looks like a low budget version of super troopers.

MapForJ

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Different laws. Stupid video. Looks like a low budget version of super troopers.

Maybe but show the principles cops use and some may apply to Ireland, the pretext of you willbe held in a cell with people who like kids like you"

"Showing cops you know your rights make them cautious about violating them" would apply to Ireland

coylemj

I prefer this video from Chris Rock - how not to get your ass kicked by the police.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

evercloserunion

Haven't looked at the documentary, but is it more freeman crap?

MapForJ

evercloserunion wrote: »

Haven't looked at the documentary, but is it more freeman crap?

no it is about stopping bully boy cops on power trips

Our man in Havana

The best one I have seen does apply to Ireland. Basically shut up and don't answer any questions as the answers may be used against you.

Chuck Stone

It's good for young people to know their rights when it comes to dealing with authorities (not just the police).

MapForJ

Our man in Havana wrote: »

The best one I have seen does apply to Ireland. Basically shut up and don't answer any questions as the answers may be used against you.

which one is that?

Basically shut up and don't answer any questions as the answers may be used against you.

thats it basially. and not fall for ploys to make you talk such as being nice to you/being nasty to you pretending your offence is a big deal/ a little deal talking about your interests to get you to feel comfortable talking to them

Our man in Havana

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

Some great advice there.

MagicSean

Our man in Havana wrote: »

The best one I have seen does apply to Ireland. Basically shut up and don't answer any questions as the answers may be used against you.

That's poor advice. If a Garda demands your name address or date of birth in most cases shutting up will result in your arrest. Also if being interviewed shutting up can result in inferences being drawn.

Our man in Havana

They draw what they like. Without evidence they can do nothing. You cannot get a conviction on the mere fact a suspect refused to answer questions.

Paulw

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Also if being interviewed shutting up can result in inferences being drawn.

I thought that only applied to offences relating to terrorism? Other than that, you have the right to remain silent and no inferrence can be drawn from it.

In dealing with the Gardai, common sense and common courtasy go a long way. Be polite. The vast majority of gardai are decent people only doing a tough job.

MapForJ

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

That's poor advice. If a Garda demands your name address or date of birth in most cases shutting up will result in your arrest. Also if being interviewed shutting up can result in inferences being drawn.

you are not obliged to give name and address unless they have a reason .

Why would a garda demand a name and address instead of asking? very aggressive tone, that is why people need this info. As to being interrogated shutting up can result in inferences sometimes

MapForJ

Paulw wrote: »

The vast majority of gardai are decent people only doing a tough job.

and some are small town bullies on power trips

RustyNut

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

That's poor advice. If a Garda demands your name address or date of birth in most cases shutting up will result in your arrest. Also if being interviewed shutting up can result in inferences being drawn.

In what circumstances are you obliged to give your d.o.b.? I know they can arrest you to establish your ID, just curious?

source

MapForJ wrote: »

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

That's poor advice. If a Garda demands your name address or date of birth in most cases shutting up will result in your arrest. Also if being interviewed shutting up can result in inferences being drawn.

you are not obliged to give name and address unless they have a reason .

Why would a garda demand a name and address instead of asking? very aggressive tone, that is why people need this info. As to being interrogated shutting up can result in inferences sometimes

"Demanding" isnt agressive, Gardai have powers under certain acts such as road traffic and public order, to demand a person provide them their name and address. If they don't or give a false name, they can be arrested.

Demand in this sense is a legal term, meaning the Garda asks for a name and the person must provide one.

Our man in Havana

RustyNut wrote: »

In what circumstances are you obliged to give your d.o.b.? I know they can arrest you to establish your ID, just curious?

That old chestnut again.

We established before you don't have to give DOB but it can help you get away from them faster if you give it to them.

MagicSean

Our man in Havana wrote: »

They draw what they like. Without evidence they can do nothing. You cannot get a conviction on the mere fact a suspect refused to answer questions.

That would be something best discussed with a solicitor. you wouldn't be interviewed if there was no evidence to put to you in the first place.

MapForJ wrote: »

you are not obliged to give name and address unless they have a reason .

A garda will make a lawful demand if a person doesn't give a name on request. Public Order, Road Traffic Acts, Offences Against the State, Firearm and Offensive Weapons Act. All give a power to demand name and address. And if they hadn't a reason why would they care what your name was in the first place?

MapForJ wrote: »

Why would a garda demand a name and address instead of asking? very aggressive tone, that is why people need this info.

Isn't that what you call a stawman argument? I've rebutted a claim by a poster and informed you of the legal entitlement to provide details and you respond with an argument that it would be rude to make a demand before asking like that is somehow relevant.

MagicSean

Our man in Havana wrote: »

That old chestnut again.

We established before you don't have to give DOB but it can help you get away from them faster if you give it to them.

Road Traffic Act 2010

79.— The following section is substituted for section 107 of the Principal Act:


“107.— (1) Where a member of the Garda Síochána alleges to a person using a mechanically propelled vehicle that the member suspects that such person has committed a specified offence under this Act, the member may demand of such person his or her name and address and date of birth and may, if such person refuses or fails to give his or her name and address or date of birth or gives a name or address or date of birth which the member has reasonable grounds for believing to be false or misleading, arrest such person without warrant.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/act/pub/0025/sec0079.html#sec79

EDIT: Commenced in early June

Our man in Havana

They have finally plugged that loophole.

That would be something best discussed with a solicitor. you wouldn't be interviewed if there was no evidence to put to you in the first place.

Those are called fishing trips. A lot of the time the only evidence is the suspects confession. You are not obliged to assist the prosecution in convicting you.

RustyNut

Our man in Havana wrote: »

That old chestnut again.

We established before you don't have to give DOB but it can help you get away from them faster if you give it to them.

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Road Traffic Act 2010

79.— The following section is substituted for section 107 of the Principal Act:


“107.— (1) Where a member of the Garda Síochána alleges to a person using a mechanically propelled vehicle that the member suspects that such person has committed a specified offence under this Act, the member may demand of such person his or her name and address and date of birth and may, if such person refuses or fails to give his or her name and address or date of birth or gives a name or address or date of birth which the member has reasonable grounds for believing to be false or misleading, arrest such person without warrant.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/act/pub/0025/sec0079.html#sec79

EDIT: Commenced in early June

Thanks a mill. Another solid fact for those pub conversations.

Chuck Stone

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Road Traffic Act 2010

79.— The following section is substituted for section 107 of the Principal Act:

“107.— (1) Where a member of the Garda Síochána alleges to a person using a mechanically propelled vehicle that the member suspects that such person has committed a specified offence under this Act, the member may demand of such person his or her name and address and date of birth

I take then that we can reply to a request for these details with 'Why do you ask - what seems to be the problem'? if the cop hasn't given some indication of his suspicion?

Our man in Havana

He would have to quote the power under which the details are being demanded.

source

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I take then that we can reply to a request for these details with 'Why do you ask - what seems to be the problem'? if the cop hasn't given some indication of his suspicion?

The member doesn't have to give you an indication of his suspicion for you to answer the question, the very fact that you have been pulled over is evidence of that suspicion.

If a member after pulling you over requests you name address and DOB then he is making a legal demand. You are obliged to answer truthfully, as per the legislation above.

In relation to the video in the OP there are a few very important things to remember.

This is Ireland not the US, that means that things are very different here, for example.

1, Different rules
2, Different regulations
3, Different statutes
4, Different practices and procedures (police)
5, Last but not least a different Constitution.

The stop you see in the video in the first minute would be handled very differently in Ireland. The reason for this is Section 23 Misuse of Drugs Act 1977/84. This Section gives a member of AGS the power to search any person, vehicle or vessel that he reasonably suspects contain drugs. If the person refuses to a road side search they are detained and brought to a Garda Station to be searched.

I have no problem with people knowing and exercising their rights, but beware when doing so. A lot of people try to exercise rights they don't have because they've been watching too much American Cop shows, and threads like this only make it worse.

This is not America if you are interested in exercising your rights then at least find out what your rights are in an Irish context. Also if you're interested in exercising your rights you also must find out what your responsibilities are under law and what powers AGS have.

I will say this one more time for effect:

DO NOT RELY ON DOCUMENTS AND SHOWS MADE IN THE USA, THE RIGHTS AND LAWS DO NOT TRANSLATE TO IRELAND!

Chuck Stone

source wrote: »

the very fact that you have been pulled over is evidence of that suspicion.

I'd imagine this is true if you've been singled out but what about at a routine stop where many cars are being stopped?

DO NOT RELY ON DOCUMENTS AND SHOWS MADE IN THE USA, THE RIGHTS AND LAWS DO NOT TRANSLATE TO IRELAND!

I understand this. The US constitution seems more rubust when it comes to to the right to deny consent to person and car searches.

I was quite shocked that the US cops could enter a house without a warrant if they 'smell weed'.

AFAIK they wouldn't be able to do that here.

source

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I'd imagine this is true if you've been singled out but what about at a routine stop where many cars are being stopped?

Then the driver can be asked to produce his licence under Section 40 Road Traffic Act 1961, which contains all the information we're discussing and which a driver is legally obliged to have with them when driving. There is no need to have witnessed a driver doing anything illegal for this request to be made. If you're driving that is enough. If you don't have your licence on you, you have then committed an offence and the member can use Section 107 above to take your details.He will then give you 10 days to produce the licence at a Garda Station of your choice.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I understand this. The US constitution seems more rubust when it comes to to the right to deny consent to person and car searches.

I was quite shocked that the US cops could enter a house without a warrant if they 'smell weed'.

AFAIK they wouldn't be able to do that here.

I don't know much about the US constitution bar what we hear on TV, but I do know it is a very different document to ours. In relation to enter a house without warrant, it is true that AGS cannot just enter a house because they "smell weed", however it is possible to get a warrant from a Judge, peace commissioner, or a superintendent (only in very special circumstances).

RustyNut

source wrote: »

The member doesn't have to give you an indication of his suspicion for you to answer the question, the very fact that you have been pulled over is evidence of that suspicion.

If a member after pulling you over requests you name address and DOB then he is making a legal demand. You are obliged to answer truthfully, as per the legislation above.

So is it the case if somebody is walking down the road, gets stopped and the member demands the persons details without quoting the legislation he is using to make the demand that person is obliged to give their details.

MapForJ

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

That would be something best discussed with a solicitor. you wouldn't be interviewed if there was no evidence to put to you in the first place.



A garda will make a lawful demand if a person doesn't give a name on request. Public Order, Road Traffic Acts, Offences Against the State, Firearm and Offensive Weapons Act. All give a power to demand name and address. And if they hadn't a reason why would they care what your name was in the first place?



Isn't that what you call a stawman argument? I've rebutted a claim by a poster and informed you of the legal entitlement to provide details and you respond with an argument that it would be rude to make a demand before asking like that is somehow relevant.

is that what you call it?

MapForJ

RustyNut wrote: »

So is it the case if somebody is walking down the road, gets stopped and the member demands the persons details without quoting the legislation he is using to make the demand that person is obliged to give their details.

if you are walking what legislation does he invoke?

Wile E. Coyote

Paulw wrote: »

In dealing with the Gardai, common sense and common courtasy go a long way. Be polite. The vast majority of gardai are decent people only doing a tough job.

Agree 100%. If you've done nothing wrong then use common sense and answer the questions that your asked and you'll soon be on your way. Arguing with the Guard won't get you anywhere and will only increase their suspicion that you have something to hide.