The Citizens Guide To Surviving Police Encounters

ronan45

Hi All

I came across this documentary on a great Site. It is an american documentary but does the same apply in relation to Ireland and the Gardai?

http://documentaryheaven.com/busted-the-citizens-guide-to-surviving-police-encounters/

MagicSean

Different laws. Stupid video. Looks like a low budget version of super troopers.

MapForJ

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Different laws. Stupid video. Looks like a low budget version of super troopers.

Maybe but show the principles cops use and some may apply to Ireland, the pretext of you willbe held in a cell with people who like kids like you"

"Showing cops you know your rights make them cautious about violating them" would apply to Ireland

coylemj

I prefer this video from Chris Rock - how not to get your ass kicked by the police.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

evercloserunion

Haven't looked at the documentary, but is it more freeman crap?

MapForJ

evercloserunion wrote: »

Haven't looked at the documentary, but is it more freeman crap?

no it is about stopping bully boy cops on power trips

Our man in Havana

The best one I have seen does apply to Ireland. Basically shut up and don't answer any questions as the answers may be used against you.

Chuck Stone

It's good for young people to know their rights when it comes to dealing with authorities (not just the police).

MapForJ

Our man in Havana wrote: »

The best one I have seen does apply to Ireland. Basically shut up and don't answer any questions as the answers may be used against you.

which one is that?

Basically shut up and don't answer any questions as the answers may be used against you.

thats it basially. and not fall for ploys to make you talk such as being nice to you/being nasty to you pretending your offence is a big deal/ a little deal talking about your interests to get you to feel comfortable talking to them

Our man in Havana

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

Some great advice there.

MagicSean

Our man in Havana wrote: »

The best one I have seen does apply to Ireland. Basically shut up and don't answer any questions as the answers may be used against you.

That's poor advice. If a Garda demands your name address or date of birth in most cases shutting up will result in your arrest. Also if being interviewed shutting up can result in inferences being drawn.

Our man in Havana

They draw what they like. Without evidence they can do nothing. You cannot get a conviction on the mere fact a suspect refused to answer questions.

Paulw

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Also if being interviewed shutting up can result in inferences being drawn.

I thought that only applied to offences relating to terrorism? Other than that, you have the right to remain silent and no inferrence can be drawn from it.

In dealing with the Gardai, common sense and common courtasy go a long way. Be polite. The vast majority of gardai are decent people only doing a tough job.

MapForJ

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

That's poor advice. If a Garda demands your name address or date of birth in most cases shutting up will result in your arrest. Also if being interviewed shutting up can result in inferences being drawn.

you are not obliged to give name and address unless they have a reason .

Why would a garda demand a name and address instead of asking? very aggressive tone, that is why people need this info. As to being interrogated shutting up can result in inferences sometimes

MapForJ

Paulw wrote: »

The vast majority of gardai are decent people only doing a tough job.

and some are small town bullies on power trips

RustyNut

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

That's poor advice. If a Garda demands your name address or date of birth in most cases shutting up will result in your arrest. Also if being interviewed shutting up can result in inferences being drawn.

In what circumstances are you obliged to give your d.o.b.? I know they can arrest you to establish your ID, just curious?

source

MapForJ wrote: »

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

That's poor advice. If a Garda demands your name address or date of birth in most cases shutting up will result in your arrest. Also if being interviewed shutting up can result in inferences being drawn.

you are not obliged to give name and address unless they have a reason .

Why would a garda demand a name and address instead of asking? very aggressive tone, that is why people need this info. As to being interrogated shutting up can result in inferences sometimes

"Demanding" isnt agressive, Gardai have powers under certain acts such as road traffic and public order, to demand a person provide them their name and address. If they don't or give a false name, they can be arrested.

Demand in this sense is a legal term, meaning the Garda asks for a name and the person must provide one.

Our man in Havana

RustyNut wrote: »

In what circumstances are you obliged to give your d.o.b.? I know they can arrest you to establish your ID, just curious?

That old chestnut again.

We established before you don't have to give DOB but it can help you get away from them faster if you give it to them.

MagicSean

Our man in Havana wrote: »

They draw what they like. Without evidence they can do nothing. You cannot get a conviction on the mere fact a suspect refused to answer questions.

That would be something best discussed with a solicitor. you wouldn't be interviewed if there was no evidence to put to you in the first place.

MapForJ wrote: »

you are not obliged to give name and address unless they have a reason .

A garda will make a lawful demand if a person doesn't give a name on request. Public Order, Road Traffic Acts, Offences Against the State, Firearm and Offensive Weapons Act. All give a power to demand name and address. And if they hadn't a reason why would they care what your name was in the first place?

MapForJ wrote: »

Why would a garda demand a name and address instead of asking? very aggressive tone, that is why people need this info.

Isn't that what you call a stawman argument? I've rebutted a claim by a poster and informed you of the legal entitlement to provide details and you respond with an argument that it would be rude to make a demand before asking like that is somehow relevant.

MagicSean

Our man in Havana wrote: »

That old chestnut again.

We established before you don't have to give DOB but it can help you get away from them faster if you give it to them.

Road Traffic Act 2010

79.— The following section is substituted for section 107 of the Principal Act:


“107.— (1) Where a member of the Garda Síochána alleges to a person using a mechanically propelled vehicle that the member suspects that such person has committed a specified offence under this Act, the member may demand of such person his or her name and address and date of birth and may, if such person refuses or fails to give his or her name and address or date of birth or gives a name or address or date of birth which the member has reasonable grounds for believing to be false or misleading, arrest such person without warrant.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/act/pub/0025/sec0079.html#sec79

EDIT: Commenced in early June

Our man in Havana

They have finally plugged that loophole.

That would be something best discussed with a solicitor. you wouldn't be interviewed if there was no evidence to put to you in the first place.

Those are called fishing trips. A lot of the time the only evidence is the suspects confession. You are not obliged to assist the prosecution in convicting you.

RustyNut

Our man in Havana wrote: »

That old chestnut again.

We established before you don't have to give DOB but it can help you get away from them faster if you give it to them.

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Road Traffic Act 2010

79.— The following section is substituted for section 107 of the Principal Act:


“107.— (1) Where a member of the Garda Síochána alleges to a person using a mechanically propelled vehicle that the member suspects that such person has committed a specified offence under this Act, the member may demand of such person his or her name and address and date of birth and may, if such person refuses or fails to give his or her name and address or date of birth or gives a name or address or date of birth which the member has reasonable grounds for believing to be false or misleading, arrest such person without warrant.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/act/pub/0025/sec0079.html#sec79

EDIT: Commenced in early June

Thanks a mill. Another solid fact for those pub conversations.

Chuck Stone

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Road Traffic Act 2010

79.— The following section is substituted for section 107 of the Principal Act:

“107.— (1) Where a member of the Garda Síochána alleges to a person using a mechanically propelled vehicle that the member suspects that such person has committed a specified offence under this Act, the member may demand of such person his or her name and address and date of birth

I take then that we can reply to a request for these details with 'Why do you ask - what seems to be the problem'? if the cop hasn't given some indication of his suspicion?

Our man in Havana

He would have to quote the power under which the details are being demanded.

source

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I take then that we can reply to a request for these details with 'Why do you ask - what seems to be the problem'? if the cop hasn't given some indication of his suspicion?

The member doesn't have to give you an indication of his suspicion for you to answer the question, the very fact that you have been pulled over is evidence of that suspicion.

If a member after pulling you over requests you name address and DOB then he is making a legal demand. You are obliged to answer truthfully, as per the legislation above.

In relation to the video in the OP there are a few very important things to remember.

This is Ireland not the US, that means that things are very different here, for example.

1, Different rules
2, Different regulations
3, Different statutes
4, Different practices and procedures (police)
5, Last but not least a different Constitution.

The stop you see in the video in the first minute would be handled very differently in Ireland. The reason for this is Section 23 Misuse of Drugs Act 1977/84. This Section gives a member of AGS the power to search any person, vehicle or vessel that he reasonably suspects contain drugs. If the person refuses to a road side search they are detained and brought to a Garda Station to be searched.

I have no problem with people knowing and exercising their rights, but beware when doing so. A lot of people try to exercise rights they don't have because they've been watching too much American Cop shows, and threads like this only make it worse.

This is not America if you are interested in exercising your rights then at least find out what your rights are in an Irish context. Also if you're interested in exercising your rights you also must find out what your responsibilities are under law and what powers AGS have.

I will say this one more time for effect:

DO NOT RELY ON DOCUMENTS AND SHOWS MADE IN THE USA, THE RIGHTS AND LAWS DO NOT TRANSLATE TO IRELAND!

Chuck Stone

source wrote: »

the very fact that you have been pulled over is evidence of that suspicion.

I'd imagine this is true if you've been singled out but what about at a routine stop where many cars are being stopped?

DO NOT RELY ON DOCUMENTS AND SHOWS MADE IN THE USA, THE RIGHTS AND LAWS DO NOT TRANSLATE TO IRELAND!

I understand this. The US constitution seems more rubust when it comes to to the right to deny consent to person and car searches.

I was quite shocked that the US cops could enter a house without a warrant if they 'smell weed'.

AFAIK they wouldn't be able to do that here.

source

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I'd imagine this is true if you've been singled out but what about at a routine stop where many cars are being stopped?

Then the driver can be asked to produce his licence under Section 40 Road Traffic Act 1961, which contains all the information we're discussing and which a driver is legally obliged to have with them when driving. There is no need to have witnessed a driver doing anything illegal for this request to be made. If you're driving that is enough. If you don't have your licence on you, you have then committed an offence and the member can use Section 107 above to take your details.He will then give you 10 days to produce the licence at a Garda Station of your choice.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I understand this. The US constitution seems more rubust when it comes to to the right to deny consent to person and car searches.

I was quite shocked that the US cops could enter a house without a warrant if they 'smell weed'.

AFAIK they wouldn't be able to do that here.

I don't know much about the US constitution bar what we hear on TV, but I do know it is a very different document to ours. In relation to enter a house without warrant, it is true that AGS cannot just enter a house because they "smell weed", however it is possible to get a warrant from a Judge, peace commissioner, or a superintendent (only in very special circumstances).

RustyNut

source wrote: »

The member doesn't have to give you an indication of his suspicion for you to answer the question, the very fact that you have been pulled over is evidence of that suspicion.

If a member after pulling you over requests you name address and DOB then he is making a legal demand. You are obliged to answer truthfully, as per the legislation above.

So is it the case if somebody is walking down the road, gets stopped and the member demands the persons details without quoting the legislation he is using to make the demand that person is obliged to give their details.

MapForJ

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

That would be something best discussed with a solicitor. you wouldn't be interviewed if there was no evidence to put to you in the first place.



A garda will make a lawful demand if a person doesn't give a name on request. Public Order, Road Traffic Acts, Offences Against the State, Firearm and Offensive Weapons Act. All give a power to demand name and address. And if they hadn't a reason why would they care what your name was in the first place?



Isn't that what you call a stawman argument? I've rebutted a claim by a poster and informed you of the legal entitlement to provide details and you respond with an argument that it would be rude to make a demand before asking like that is somehow relevant.

is that what you call it?

MapForJ

RustyNut wrote: »

So is it the case if somebody is walking down the road, gets stopped and the member demands the persons details without quoting the legislation he is using to make the demand that person is obliged to give their details.

if you are walking what legislation does he invoke?

Wile E. Coyote

Paulw wrote: »

In dealing with the Gardai, common sense and common courtasy go a long way. Be polite. The vast majority of gardai are decent people only doing a tough job.

Agree 100%. If you've done nothing wrong then use common sense and answer the questions that your asked and you'll soon be on your way. Arguing with the Guard won't get you anywhere and will only increase their suspicion that you have something to hide.

MapForJ

source wrote: »

The member doesn't have to give you an indication of his suspicion for you to answer the question, the very fact that you have been pulled over is evidence of that suspicion.

If a member after pulling you over requests you name address and DOB then he is making a legal demand. You are obliged to answer truthfully, as per the legislation above.

In relation to the video in the OP there are a few very important things to remember.

This is Ireland not the US, that means that things are very different here, for example.

1, Different rules
2, Different regulations
3, Different statutes
4, Different practices and procedures (police)
5, Last but not least a different Constitution.

The stop you see in the video in the first minute would be handled very differently in Ireland. The reason for this is Section 23 Misuse of Drugs Act 1977/84. This Section gives a member of AGS the power to search any person, vehicle or vessel that he reasonably suspects contain drugs. If the person refuses to a road side search they are detained and brought to a Garda Station to be searched.

I have no problem with people knowing and exercising their rights, but beware when doing so. A lot of people try to exercise rights they don't have because they've been watching too much American Cop shows, and threads like this only make it worse.

This is not America if you are interested in exercising your rights then at least find out what your rights are in an Irish context. Also if you're interested in exercising your rights you also must find out what your responsibilities are under law and what powers AGS have.

I will say this one more time for effect:

DO NOT RELY ON DOCUMENTS AND SHOWS MADE IN THE USA, THE RIGHTS AND LAWS DO NOT TRANSLATE TO IRELAND!

what is the same sometimes is the mind games and taking advantage of people who do not know their rights

source

RustyNut wrote: »

So is it the case if somebody is walking down the road, gets stopped and the member demands the persons details without quoting the legislation he is using to make the demand that person is obliged to give their details.

If a person is stopped it will be because they're suspected of something, usually drugs or public order. There is no need to quote legislation to a person, this is because people generally do not understand what you are saying. As such it is sufficient to tell a person you are requesting their name and address under the public order act. If pushed the member can and will quote the section to you.

Also remember members of AGS are people just like everyone, if you're talking to a member and they ask for your name they don't have to be asking under a statute, you don't have to answer just like if anyone else asked you the same question.

Gardai can ask you anything they want, you again don't have to answer. But many sections that Gardai operate under rely on the Garda's reasonable suspicion. If you avoid ordinary questions such as "Where are you headed tonight?", or "Where are you coming from?" neither of which are legislated for.....then you may arouse the members suspicion (depending on what they're looking for).

Basically what I'm saying is that Gardai can talk to you and ask you all sorts of questions that aren't legislated for. You may or may not answer them. It is only when a Garda makes a demand for the details that you must provide them.

source

MapForJ wrote: »

what is the same sometimes is the mind games and taking advantage of people who do not know their rights

It's not taking advantage, people don't have to answer questions if they don't want to. In fact the caution that is given to those arrested has the right to silence as its cornerstone:

"You are not obliged to say anything unless you wish to do so, but whatever you say will be taken down in writing and my be given in evidence."

A Garda as I already said can ask anyone any question, it is only when they demand an answer that they must be acting under statute, and that is usually only for personal details.

RustyNut

source wrote: »

If a person is stopped it will be because they're suspected of something, usually drugs or public order. There is no need to quote legislation to a person, this is because people generally do not understand what you are saying. As such it is sufficient to tell a person you are requesting their name and address under the public order act. If pushed the member can and will quote the section to you.

Also remember members of AGS are people just like everyone, if you're talking to a member and they ask for your name they don't have to be asking under a statute, you don't have to answer just like if anyone else asked you the same question.

Gardai can ask you anything they want, you again don't have to answer. But many sections that Gardai operate under rely on the Garda's reasonable suspicion. If you avoid ordinary questions such as "Where are you headed tonight?", or "Where are you coming from?" neither of which are legislated for.....then you may arouse the members suspicion (depending on what they're looking for).

Basically what I'm saying is that Gardai can talk to you and ask you all sorts of questions that aren't legislated for. You may or may not answer them. It is only when a Garda makes a demand for the details that you must provide them.

I know common decency would lead me to just give them but just for clarity if you are just asked you can just refuse to give them until the member specifies what legislation he is using to make a demand then you become obliged to give them?

source

RustyNut wrote: »

I know common decency would lead me to just give them but just for clarity if you are just asked you can just refuse to give them until the member specifies what legislation he is using to make a demand then you become obliged to give them?

If you want to go down that route you may.

I would advocate that you shouldn't make things awkward just for the sake of it. If you are asked a simple question by a member of AGS then just answer it. AGS aren't out to get you and have to act within the law, (yes I'm sure you can point out where members have broken the law, but in every large police force there's always a few bad apples.) and as such will not go around stopping for no good reason. Trust me, AGS are busy enough going from call to call without having to pull over or stop random people on the street for no good reason.

Zambia

I Dont recall reading the requirement that the officer has to state the act.

source

Zambia wrote: »

I Dont recall reading the requirement that the officer has to state the act.

He doesn't but if a person is being awkward and keeps pushing it, then the member can state the section he's acting under.

kippy

Maybe it's just me, maybe I am a bit gullible, maybe I don't get out enough but I have never ever ever had any issue with any member of the Gardai or indeed police force of any country in my 30 odd years.
I could not once say I wasn't treated fairly by any member of the force I had met no matter what the circumstances.

Perhaps it's because I was brought up to respect people in authority(at the very least), no matter what the circumstances, perhaps it was because I don't generally go around on the edge of the law or breaking it, perhaps it's that I am a non confrontational kind of person. I really dont know.
Maybe I've been lucky, maybe I've never ended up in the presense of an officer who really isn't in the right frame of mind for their career - I don't know.

No doubt there are people in every profession who let the profession down, but in many many cases I usually find it takes two to tango and it is very easy taking the side of the non authoratitive figure no matter what the situation.

RustyNut

source wrote: »

If you want to go down that route you may.

I would advocate that you shouldn't make things awkward just for the sake of it. If you are asked a simple question by a member of AGS then just answer it. AGS aren't out to get you and have to act within the law, (yes I'm sure you can point out where members have broken the law, but in every large police force there's always a few bad apples.) and as such will not go around stopping for no good reason. Trust me, AGS are busy enough going from call to call without having to pull over or stop random people on the street for no good reason.

I'm not advocating any particular behaviour just asking hypothetical questions to tease out the legal obligations of both AGS and citizens.

I don't have any beef nor am I trying to make any point just asking questions to flesh out the debate.

To put the question another way if the member were to make a demand under miss use of drugs act or poa and Joe public was to give a false name that would be an offence, if the member was to ask casually for the same info and was given a false name would that constitute an offence?

Just a hypothetical question.

RustyNut

source wrote: »

I

Basically what I'm saying is that Gardai can talk to you and ask you all sorts of questions that aren't legislated for. You may or may not answer them. It is only when a Garda makes a demand for the details that you must provide them.

Doing this on my phone this answers my question but I managed to miss it.
My bad, doh:o

MapForJ

source wrote: »

. There is no need to quote legislation to a person, this is because people generally do not understand what you are saying. .

how do you know what peple understand?

MapForJ

source wrote: »

If you want to go down that route you may.

I would advocate that you shouldn't make things awkward just for the sake of it. If you are asked a simple question by a member of AGS then just answer it. AGS aren't out to get you and have to act within the law, (yes I'm sure you can point out where members have broken the law, but in every large police force there's always a few bad apples.) and as such will not go around stopping for no good reason. Trust me, AGS are busy enough going from call to call without having to pull over or stop random people on the street for no good reason.

lol

source

MapForJ wrote: »

lol

Great contribution to the thread.....Well done.

Wile E. Coyote

MapForJ wrote: »

lol

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you don't like/trust the Gardai ?

Finnbar01

MapForJ wrote: »

if you are walking what legislation does he invoke?

Under the drugs act.

A garda can stop, search and demand your personal details anytime he wants.

source wrote: »

If you want to go down that route you may. I would advocate that you shouldn't make things awkward just for the sake of it. If you are asked a simple question by a member of AGS then just answer it. AGS aren't out to get you and have to act within the law, (yes I'm sure you can point out where members have broken the law, but in every large police force there's always a few bad apples.) and as such will not go around stopping for no good reason. Trust me, AGS are busy enough going from call to call without having to pull over or stop random people on the street for no good reason.

But how do I know I'm not dealing with a bad apple garda? (Yes, they are in the minority.)

source

Finnbar01 wrote: »

But how do I know I'm not dealing with a bad apple garda? (Yes, they are in the minority.)

You can't, similarly a Garda cannot know whether they're dealing with a criminal, or a law abiding citizen by simply talking to them.