Lufthansa Technik Airmotive - closure ?

Delancey

Maybe it's just my perception but it seems to me that every year there are warnings that Airmotive is on the brink of closure.
Latests comes from company management who say they will close if an overtime ban is not ended - is this sabre-rattling or could they be serious ?

xflyer

I worked there for years when it was owned by Aer lingus. It was exactly the same back then. Brinkmanship from the unions on a regular basis. Management threatening radical action, everybody edging closer to the precipice and then a compromise being reached. It's where I learned to be cynical of unions and their antics.

The place is far too heavily unionised, when it was set up it was essentially Aer Lingus by another name. It seems not much has changed.

I thought they got rid of the radical union heads after a long unofficial dispute years ago.

There was some farcical disputes. One time a Supervisor needed a bottle of a certain product to keep production going. But you had to go through the process. It was all about demarcation. The storeman had to hand it to the mechanic etc etc. No flexibility allowed. The Supervisor went and got it himself. So the bottle was 'blacked' and allowed to sit there untouched for a very long time. Maybe it's still there?

I wouldn't mind but the overtime ban would definitely cost the mechanics more money than any pay rise they missed. But I suppose it's the 'principal' of the thing:rolleyes:. Somehow or other they think they are owed a pay rise despite the rest of the country taking huge cuts. None of them are low paid by the way.

One day they'll push it too far and both parties will go over the cliff.

LadyTBolt

This is Lufthansa Techniks style all out. Do it our way or we are closing.
They did this a couple of years ago in Dublin and twice in the last 8 years in Shannon.
In the next couple of weeks the union will ask the employees to vote to take action to get their payrise, just before the vote Lufthansa will put the staff on temporary notices, the employees will vote to keep their jobs and return to work no better off.
This is the Lufthansa way.

kona

It would be sad to see it go, one of the few remnants of Aircraft overhaul in Ireland. Its a nice set up too, although I always wondered the wisdom of its location, how they transport the engines in and out, A Jt-9D aint exactley compact.

Payton

I think its along the same lines as Aer Lingus....do it our way or else....terms and condition??? just do it our way.
But unlike Aer Lingus, Lufthansa Technik Airmotive Ireland is a profit making company but yet the company have cut pay and conditions even if the LRC found in favour of the workforce 3 times!! in regards the final payment of the 2.5% of "Towards 2016" which the company refused to pay.
Maybe it is too unionised but as far as I know this is not the first time the management has treathened to close the plant.

Payton

kona wrote: »

It would be sad to see it go, one of the few remnants of Aircraft overhaul in Ireland. Its a nice set up too, although I always wondered the wisdom of its location, how they transport the engines in and out, A Jt-9D aint exactley compact.

The P&W JT9D and CFM56 engines are transported in on 40ft trailers.

dell1211

on the verge wrote: »

I think its along the same lines as Aer Lingus....do it our way or else....terms and condition??? just do it our way.
But unlike Aer Lingus, Lufthansa Technik Airmotive Ireland is a profit making company but yet the company have cut pay and conditions even if the LRC found in favour of the workforce 3 times!! in regards the final payment of the 2.5% of "Towards 2016" which the company refused to pay.
Maybe it is too unionised but as far as I know this is not the first time the management has treathened to close the plant.

I dont see why the profitability of a company should come into it(although in this case I understand that in the past the company did not pay previous increases due to not being profitable). Companies locate in different countries for various reasons one being the supply and cost of labour. Im sure that the going rate of a aircraft technician is way way less than what Lufthansa pay and there are plenty of similarly qualified people who would replace these overpaid people so why should they stay increasing wages? But the unions dont give a fu(k about their members, pure bully boy tactics by the shop Stewart's, they have to justify their existence by causing trouble over a national wage agreement that is no longer relevant. At the end of the day its the normal working man with a mortgage that will have to pay for this, they dont have a choice, if they go against the union they get bullied.

Imagine how are the Germans are viewing us over this. The Irish people who borrowed to their tits, wages exploded, economny crashed, fu(ck all jobs left and they still want a pay increase.

xflyer

This is Lufthansa Techniks style all out. Do it our way or we are closing. They did this a couple of years ago in Dublin and twice in the last 8 years in Shannon.
In the next couple of weeks the union will ask the employees to vote to take action to get their payrise, just before the vote Lufthansa will put the staff on temporary notices, the employees will vote to keep their jobs and return to work no better off.
This is the Lufthansa way.

Not just the Lufthansa way, the Aer Lingus way, The Airmotive Ireland way. I was there from the start when it was just a big old empty aircraft hangar. I think I was put on protective notice twice and we came within six weeks of closure once and there was always some dispute or other over pay. So it's not the first time.


It was very unionised and not in a positive way. I think I met personally virtually everyone currently involved at the top in ICTU you often see on TV because they were all there at one point or other.

The staff was full of radicals. I remember at one stage the entire shop steward contingent was voted out because they dared to compromise with the management. The union reps were heckled and booed when they too tried to be reasonable. The irony was that the new bunch didn't do any better and they got rid of some of the better shop stewards.


In the end I got out on a redundancy package. Boy was I happy. Not too much has changed in my opinion based on this latest spat. They really have the Aer Lingus disease in spite of them being long since sold on.


On the point of the location, it isn't an issue. Many MROs are based in funny out of the way places. AMI is on the main road very close to Dublin and in fact with the M50 perfectly located. The M50 wasn't there whenit opened. Trucks had to cross the city. Given the turnaround times, it isn't an issue. The building was built as an aircraft factory and is huge inside. Ideal in fact. AMI competes for business with MROs all over the world. So for an airline in the far east sending an engine here rather than Singapore the distance doesn't arise as an issue. It's all about price, quality and turnaround time.


As for the JT9Ds, they are transported on big trucks with air suspension. I remember once when a JT9D fell off a truck in the yard outside the test cell . The driver moved without securing it. $200,000 in damage and his job was the cost.

As for this dispute, well engine refurbishment is an international business. They compete with MROs all over the world. If you get the same quality and turnaround at the lower prices, guess where the work will go? I suspect that this is the rationale behind managment thinking.


I'm actually amazed it's lasted so long. I joined it in 1980, that's 31 years ago. If I'd stayed I'd think I would cash in on my pension by now!

FlutterinBantam

Bit like the Aer Lingus 'Production' Dept operated way back when I'm told.

Coterie of hard liners coercing the staff, not that they needed much either, I believe,and where is that Dept. now?


Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

opinionated3

LadyTBolt wrote: »

This is Lufthansa Techniks style all out. Do it our way or we are closing.
They did this a couple of years ago in Dublin and twice in the last 8 years in Shannon.
In the next couple of weeks the union will ask the employees to vote to take action to get their payrise, just before the vote Lufthansa will put the staff on temporary notices, the employees will vote to keep their jobs and return to work no better off.
This is the Lufthansa way.

This may very well be the LHT way but they very much hold all the aces here. People tend to forget that LH is quite a good employer and generally speaking they look after their employees quite well. I have worked for a direct subsidiary of LHT for over 14 yrs now(not in management by the way) and we too are owed wages under the national wage agreement. However we all have mortgages and bills etc and until things pick up i don't envisage us hitting the strike trail anytime soon. That is not to belittle the LTAI cause but I do know that they recieved a 40m euro investment from Hamburg which would guarantee their jobs for many years to come. Would i risk that for 2.5%? NO. It is also rumoured that Hamburg are losing a lot of patience with the dublin operation and I reckon it would not cost them a seconds thought to take away the new engine work and let LTAI wind down over a few years on the older engines until they were obsolete. The union here has a lot to answer for....are they really willing to risk 465 well paid jobs for a 2.5% wage increase? Guaranteed there would be a queue miles long outside the facility if people looking for one of the 465 positions were informed of available jobs! I believe its heading to the LRC for tomorrow morning so hopefully that could be the start of some sort of compromise agreement.

Payton

I agree with your points opinionated3 the unions have a lot to answer for, The €40Million investment was put in place when the workforce were basically given a new plant agreement now they have to bank hours and only in some areas can people bank hours in other words if you dont have the ability to bank your hours and your area goes slack you go home with pay but you have no means to make the hours back up, a cut in shift rate,the vote that carried that was by about 17 votes, So whats next down the line for them?. The LRC have found in favour of the workforce 3 times, so I can only guess everything is off the table.

donkey balls

Years ago I used to be in Airmotive on a daily basis delivering all the engine parts mainly from P&W and other suppliers, I Also got a look were they do the engine testing it's exactly what you see when looking at a Discovery channel program about engines,As for transporting the aircraft engines the trucks are normally a 40ft curtain sider and all are on air suspension these days I collected a B747 one last year and while working for my own crowd we would collect the slave pallet that the engine sits onto while in transit either on a truck or main deck of a freighter.

1newuser

Not all the staff at LTAI will get to vote on any solution. This power is held by union members in the works council. So when the papers say that 465 staff will decide this is far from the truth.

mattjack

xflyer wrote: »

I worked there for years when it was owned by Aer lingus. It was exactly the same back then. Brinkmanship from the unions on a regular basis. Management threatening radical action, everybody edging closer to the precipice and then a compromise being reached. It's where I learned to be cynical of unions and their antics.

The place is far too heavily unionised, when it was set up it was essentially Aer Lingus by another name. It seems not much has changed.

I thought they got rid of the radical union heads after a long unofficial dispute years ago.

There was some farcical disputes. One time a Supervisor needed a bottle of a certain product to keep production going. But you had to go through the process. It was all about demarcation. The storeman had to hand it to the mechanic etc etc. No flexibility allowed. The Supervisor went and got it himself. So the bottle was 'blacked' and allowed to sit there untouched for a very long time. Maybe it's still there?

I wouldn't mind but the overtime ban would definitely cost the mechanics more money than any pay rise they missed. But I suppose it's the 'principal' of the thing:rolleyes:. Somehow or other they think they are owed a pay rise despite the rest of the country taking huge cuts. None of them are low paid by the way.

One day they'll push it too far and both parties will go over the cliff.

My father worked there for years and he told us astonishing stories bout unions, demarcation etc,at one stage I was considering applying for a particular vacancy there that would involve a type of retraining for my trade...he convinced me that the pettyness and inflexibilty would be astonishing for me after coming from where I was previously employed.He actually did quite well but always had a low opinion of some union and a lot of the supervisors

Payton

I beleive a ballot was held today on an agreement between both parties, "Lump Sums" and additional "banked hours" are being offered to the workers plus and "enhanced overtime package".

1newuser

The results of the ballot where announced today. 202 in favour and 73 against accepting the company offer. So everything will hopefully get back to normal until next year.

xflyer

Why am I not surprised, after fourteen years working in the kip. Nothing changes. It's a complete farce. Last minute compromise as usual.

Pathetic.

It's a throwback to the bad old days when unions rulled the the roost and made sure their distorted version of industrial relations was the norm.

Quite frankly, in the end, the Germans will get fed up and pull the plug.

Personally, I think the problem was the source of most of the original mechanics. Most came from the car assembly industry. Those of you of a certain age may not realise that cars were actually assembled here in Ireland. So your Fiat could actually be labelled as Irish. But it all crashed because it was expensive and quite frankly it was a hotbed of industrial friction. So the car companies closed down their operations here and many of the original mechanics hired by AMI were actually car assembly workers. They also hired their radical attitudes. Great place if you wanted advice on a car, lousy if you wanted good relations.

Nothing much has changed apparently.

Delancey

Good point xflyer , the car assembly industry pretty much vanished up its arse when EU rules meant cars could be imported into Ireland without tariffs , I think in 2 years every assembly operation ( bar FIAT ) had baled out. Absolutely true what you say about industrial relations - that industry was a byword for everything bad about unions ( cars they turned out were by and large utter shyte as well ).

opinionated3

Sorry to revitalise this thread again but as someone that works in aviation I was concerned to hear further rumours this week about redundancies and three day weeks at LTAI. It is a big company and has a a big owner with a major international reputation to uphold but LHT have just shut their subsidiary in Australia. Can anyone here shed light on what's going on in Dublin?

bluecode

I remember an article about it in the Irish Times back in July. I believe they are currently on a three day week.

I'm afraid it's the nature of the business. When I was there there were two rounds of redundancies. I got out on the second. Several times as Airmotive Ireland they were within weeks of closure due to lack of business.

It's an extremely competitive arena. Competition is worldwide. So you can lose a customer to an MRO in asia just as easily as one in Europe. I often wonder is the Lufthansa connection is more of a hindrance than a help. Airmotive often played up it's Irish and Aer Lingus connections to drum up business. Who knows.

Maybe I should have stayed there. By now I'd have had thirty years behind me. The redundancy payment would be huge and I would collect on the pension at this point. I know several people who have worked there over twenty years.

In fact I'm surprised it lasted this long. That in itself is remarkable.

A320

LHT would of wiped them out I would think if they didn't take over,the most recent thing i heard was a new contract for some cfm56-3 engines

opinionated3

A320 wrote: »

LHT would of wiped them out I would think if they didn't take over,the most recent thing i heard was a new contract for some cfm56-3 engines

Interesting....I heard the opposite. The cfm_3 engine is a dying one and that is what ltai survive on? Lht took the v2500 off them too after the dispute last year?? Rumours eh....

A320

Ha rumours are the joy of the industry!! Yea I recall they had the BMI V2500 contract,I hate those V2500's anyway,nowhere near as maintenance friendly as a CFM 56 or CF6 from my point of view because of the ****ty wiring set up

murphaph

My uncle worked for Aer Lingus Engineering and later Airmotive out there. I always wondered, was the facility intentionally built beside Baldonnel or is that just coincidence? How much of the building do/did Roadstone use?

Stovepipe

Hi there
It was built as a potential factory for production of the Potez 640 light transport, which failed to catch on. The aircraft would have taxied across a bridge to Baldonnel and be flown out of there.As for remarks about Aer Lingus' unions, I assure you from experience that firstly, lumping them all in as one is utterly wrong and secondly, they aren't even remotely as militant as they were in the old days. SIPTU are toothless and the Company is effectively on top of all union activity.As for engine overhaul in Ireland, I suspect that the reason it is kept on by the parent company is because it's still cheaper to run than an equivalent German company.

regards
Stovepipe

murphaph

Does P&W have any business with AM, being just next door?

mattjack

Stovepipe wrote: »

Hi there
It was built as a potential factory for production of the Potez 640 light transport, which failed to catch on. The aircraft would have taxied across a bridge to Baldonnel and be flown out of there.As for remarks about Aer Lingus' unions, I assure you from experience that firstly, lumping them all in as one is utterly wrong and secondly, they aren't even remotely as militant as they were in the old days. SIPTU are toothless and the Company is effectively on top of all union activity.As for engine overhaul in Ireland, I suspect that the reason it is kept on by the parent company is because it's still cheaper to run than an equivalent German company.

regards
Stovepipe

Showing your age there Mr Stovepipe, my Father worked for Roadstone and Airmotive for years and originally turned down a job in Potez.
He always thought the potential of the whole area was never realised properly ..in the sense that if Baldonnel airbase was used commercially as well as by the Air corp ,........ well that's another thread I suppose.

Stovepipe

Ireland, surprising to many, has a strong aerospace industry despite the size of the country and there are many companies working away quietly doing airframe component overhaul, aviation-related electronics, engine component overhaul and so on, as well as the more well-known names doing airframe overhaul. About the only thing we don't do in the Republic is build airframes or major airframe components. The North has always bragged about it's metal-bashing talents at Short Bros/Bombardier but we have every bit as much talent in the South.

regards
Stovepipe

bluecode

murphaph wrote: »

Does P&W have any business with AM, being just next door?

PWAI was originally a joint venture between Airmotive Ireland and Pratt and Whitney back in the nineties. But am not sure how that continues today with Lufthansa. PWAI specialised in repair of engine cases. Certainly there is a crossover there.

One thing to remember for those of you unfamilar with aviation is there is a strong crossover and cooperation even with competitors.

It's not unusual for one company to come across a problem and to call a competitor and ask how they handled the issue. You see safety is big in aviation. If you have a problem you see how it's handled in other companies and they are happy to help.

That's the way it is.

bluecode

Stovepipe wrote: »

Ireland, surprising to many, has a strong aerospace industry despite the size of the country and there are many companies working away quietly doing airframe component overhaul, aviation-related electronics, engine component overhaul and so on, as well as the more well-known names doing airframe overhaul. About the only thing we don't do in the Republic is build airframes or major airframe components. The North has always bragged about it's metal-bashing talents at Short Bros/Bombardier but we have every bit as much talent in the South.

regards
Stovepipe

Absolutely, based on personal experience. We don't build complete aircraft. But we do everything else. Seriously it's the best kept secret in aviation. We do all the non glamour stuff and we have a worldwide reputation but no one here seems to know about it.

Payton

LTH have shut their plant in OZ, Loss making??
The redundancies are in-direct staff, supervisors clerical staff etc. Some redundancies were given too some staff on the floor who were over 60.
The 3 day week is still on going but from what I hear its finished 27th August. The work is a bit slack in the plant but a couple of new customers are coming in. The CFM-3 is still very much out there but with the market the way it is alot of operators just dont have the money to spend on overhaul and a lot of engine swaps are taking place with grounded planes...which means at some stage they will have to be overhauled. The V2500 are nearly all tied down to IAE contracts but there are still a few out there.

opinionated3

on the verge wrote: »

LTH have shut their plant in OZ, Loss making??
The redundancies are in-direct staff, supervisors clerical staff etc. Some redundancies were given too some staff on the floor who were over 60.
The 3 day week is still on going but from what I hear its finished 27th August. The work is a bit slack in the plant but a couple of new customers are coming in. The CFM-3 is still very much out there but with the market the way it is alot of operators just dont have the money to spend on overhaul and a lot of engine swaps are taking place with grounded planes...which means at some stage they will have to be overhauled. The V2500 are nearly all tied down to IAE contracts but there are still a few out there.

Thanks for the replies folks. Some light at the end of the tunnel so....

opinionated3

Sorry to bring this thread up again but hearing very negative things about lufthansa techniks operations in Ireland. Any truth that ltai is closer to being wound up??Major unrest also at other subsidiaries about pensions and moving to cheaper countries?? Any info appreciated

Payton

opinionated3 wrote: »

Sorry to bring this thread up again but hearing very negative things about lufthansa techniks operations in Ireland. Any truth that ltai is closer to being wound up??Major unrest also at other subsidiaries about pensions and moving to cheaper countries?? Any info appreciated

Isn't that just business? A lot of companies pensions are in deficit and it's up to any board if directors and investor's to get the best return for the shareholders.

opinionated3

But they are going after at least 2 schemes that are not in deficit that I know of. Also ltai appears to have little or no work going thru is doors at the moment. I honestly think we are witnessing the slow but inevitable wind down of lht operations in Ireland. They can relocate their activities to the Philippines or China or bulgaria without too much hassle and for cheaper labour

opinionated3

Seems that things have escalated big time in ltai. Major meeting at 2pm tomorrow. Rumours of lht pulling out of the Dublin operation. Anyone here have any updates on the situation?

mackjark

Here we go again. Is this finally the end? That company has more than nine lives!

opinionated3

Indo reporting that its closing. 400 jobs gone

Payton

Maybe some hope?, "Process to consider closing the company"

kona

opinionated3 wrote: »

Indo reporting that its closing. 400 jobs gone

Very bad news, whatever about work going abroad I'd say the quality of the work isn't the same. Some serious gear out there I wonder what's going to become of it.

kub

I am sure the staff can thank their union for this.

Patrickheg

kub wrote: »

I am sure the staff can thank their union for this.

More so the bully boy shop Stewarts

notharrypotter

I am sure the staff can thank their union for this.

More so the bully boy shop Stewarts

Don't get the comments?

From the rte page linked above

The company said its announcement followed a review of operations, in the context of declining revenues and a shrinking international market.

you appear to be linking a dispute over their pensions to the actual business.


Where as the company seems to be closing loss making sections?

Patrickheg

Feel sorry for most of the genuine workers, especially so close to christmas.

notharrypotter wrote: »

Don't get the comments?

From the rte page linked above


you appear to be linking a dispute over their pensions to the actual business.


Where as the company seems to be closing loss making sections?

Read the thread in total. The workers were 'controlled' by a select few shop Stewarts. Disobey and you get bullied and harassed. End result is a very hostile worker / management relationship which is never ideal in a very competitive international industry which needs to constantly adapt

notharrypotter

Read the thread in total

From what I read one poster took redundancy in 2010 so possibly has some dated knowledge.
Possibly 2 more are current employees.

One lad delivered stuff there,
Using that logic the fact that I used to drive past it means that I can comment with conviction.

I am curious as I have an interest in aviation in general and not really specifically.

Perhaps someone can enlighten me regarding Shannon comment in an earlier post.

Is this Shannon Aerospace or something different?

opinionated3

Ltai , lufthansa technik turbine Shannon and Shannon aerospace are all subsidiaries of lht. The common issue for them at the moment is that lht are trying to take away part of their pensions . There is a feeling though that Dublin has been so militant that the Germans have finally lost patience and decided to cut their losses. Feel sorry for those that just want to keep their job

notharrypotter

Ltai

Google gives me Lufthansa Technik Airmotive Ireland.

So Lufthansa technik turbine Shannon and Shannon aerospace are all subsidiaries of lht.
So lht is Lufthansa itself or some maintenance subsidiary?

Am I correct in assuming that

1. LTai is a standalone operation within the Lufthansa family?
2. Or
3. is it the parent operation for Lufthansa maintenance in Ireland and the 2 Shannon units are subsidiaries of this?

opinionated3

Lht stands for lufthansa technik. That is the Hamburg based operation that owns the 3 companies here in Ireland. They are however stand alone entities which basically have to earn profits and report to hamburg. Ltai deals in engine overhaul. Ltts overhauls small engine parts like turbine vanes etc. aerospace overhauls the airframe of the planes.

notharrypotter

Ta

ronnie085

Patrickheg wrote: »

More so the bully boy shop Stewarts

You should learn not to comment on things you know nothing about, well apart from a thread that some friends fathers sister drove past the place and commented on how lazy or militant we were

ronnie085

Patrickheg wrote: »

More so the bully boy shop Stewarts

You should learn not to comment on things you know nothing about, well apart from a thread that some friends fathers sister drove past the place and commented on how militant we were