Irish participation in international tournaments

ALH-06

With the obvious exceptions of the Six Nations and Rugby World Cup, we have seen a noticeable scaling down of participation in international competitions on the part of Irish rugby. The recent news that the IRFU are considering pulling out of the annual u20 World Cup serves as the most recent example of this.

In recent years, we have withdrawn from the Churchill Cup (immediately after winning the thing in 2009) and have also pulled the plug on an Irish 7s side competing in the World Series. Is this a good thing for the longterm future of Irish rugby?

I understand the prohibitive financial challenges of establishing a world class 7s structure for Irish rugby, but seeing as this is now an Olympic sport, it is one avenue of rugby that will experience significant growth in popularity and participation in coming years. The IRFU seem to be turning a blind eye to this, but can they continue to ignore the issue? Or would initiating a worthwhile 7s programme stretch our player and financial resources too far?

As for the Churchill Cup - It has since been wound up altogether as an annual tournament. This is a pity, I think - it was of immense benefit to the American and Canadian national sides, while also providing meaningful gametime and experience to our aspiring future internationals. Why exactly was it wound up, and why did Irish participation end in 2009?

CatFromHue

one of the reasons the churchill cup is gone is that the irb want countries to tour with larger squads in june/november and play more games in one country.

next year we are going to new zealand and have 2 if not 3 tests against them. the irb want teams to play midweek games. so in effect they want a return to old school tours with a first and second team in the one touring squad.

sevens has never really taken off here, i dont have a huge amount of interest in watching it. i might watch a bit of a game but thats about it really. i was actually in wellington for the sevens leg there. it was a great weekend, i had a brilliant time. only watched about 10 mins of the final though. the rugby was secondary to the partys.

just cos its in the olympics means nothing to me. who do i want more to win an olympic medal paul hession or the rugby team. paul hession without a doubt. when i think of olympic sports i think of running, swimming, and athletics. an olympic medal is the pinnacle of those sports, its not the pinnacle in rugby and never will be. the 6 nations, the heineken cup, and the world cup are the pinnacle of our sport. i want to win them not an olympic sevens tournament.

im not sure whats going to happen with u20's world cup. i know that connacht and the cardiff blues started back pre season this week. id imagine ulster will start back pretty soon and they'll want luke marshall, pady jackson, and craig gilroy involved. ulster's first game is on the 10 august (6 and half weeks from now) and the celtic league will start a few weeks after that. marshall, jackson, and gilroy will feature heavily in these games. somewhere something is going to have to give, i just hope its not the players through injury.

Piliger

I agree we should stay out of 7s. It is a diversion for a small country with a small budget and a small resource of quality players. It also leaves out all the great qualities of rugby and turns it into a game for pansies ...
That it is an Olympic Sport is a joke and we shouldn't get involved because of stupid reasons like that.

JustinDee

IRFU CEO Philip Browne has already stated that the Sevens situation will be looked at in 2013 when qualification criteria for the Olympics is finalised.
What is currently happening here for this form of the game is a structure being built from grass roots level ie. the clubs.

LeeroyJones

Regarding the Sevens first of all:
For me anyway, Sevens is a great day out as a fan - but I don't get hung up on the result at all.
From a players perspective, if it fits the bill in terms of adding to our player development scheme then lets have at it. However, as cash is tight I wouldn't advocate to have a 7s team for the sake of having one. If it fits into the Olympic Councils budget, then great - otherwise it should be down the list of our priorities.

Regarding the Churchill Cup:
As far as I'm aware I believe it was wound up as nations such as the USA, Canada and Russia (open to correction here) are now going to be included in Autumn and Summer tours as part of midweek fixtures for the Top Tier nations - presumably the 'A' sides. I think this will give fringe internationals the same exposure as the Churchill Cup, it's just a bit more streamlined. In fact I reckon it's more beneficial for fringe players to tour with the Senior Squad and coaches rather than appointing a separate 'A' coach and touring separately to the Churchill Cup.

Personally, I have trust in those involved that our future player development is on the right track. While it may be a pain as a fan not to get to see a full strength side week-in week-out at domestic level it is giving our young players invaluable exposure.

ormond lad

if we had enough money to run a proper sevens team i wouldnt mind entering a team in the world series but we dont and if we entered a team, money would have to be diverted from another source.
while it would be great to win an olympic medal, and im delighted its an olympic sport, i would rather the money spent on winning a medal/ competing at the olympics was spent on helping connacht improve and be able to compete at Heineken cup level

sevens is a great day out for fans but as leeroy jones said unless the olympic council can help with funding the team, we shouldnt bother with it

i disagree with piliger, some of the running lines, support lines etc that can be seen regularly in 7s games would be super if brought over to the 15 man game

Stev_o

To ignore the potential of what a 7's team could offer us is extremely ignorant, if you look at the likes of England, Wales (sorta), Australia, South Africa and New Zealand, they'v managed to get a lot of quality players out of their sevens program.

CatFromHue

Stev_o wrote: »

if you look at the likes of England, Wales (sorta), Australia, South Africa and New Zealand, they'v managed to get a lot of quality players out of their sevens program.

not being condescending but genuinely is there evidence to back this up?

i've always heard that lomu and cullen were meant to have benefitted from sevens. id argue that these guys were so good anyway that it wouldnt have mattered if they'd played sevens or not.

GerM

I know that a lot of Australian backs are brought into the sevens team ahead of making the step up. Giteau, O'Connor, Ashley-Cooper, Mitchell all have a background of sevens. It's a similar story for the New Zealand backs with a large number of them having spent at least a season playing it. I'm not sure how beneficial it is in reality though. I'm sure it does give players a better appreciation of attacking space and lines but to what extent? I don't think too many of the French backs have played it and they're normally considered some of the most incisive and talented in the world. A lot of the players that went on to be full internationals for NZ and Australia took a couple of years in the 15 man game before they were really quality players. The English sevens side doesn't tend to contribute too many players to their full side either. There are benefits but I think it shouldn't be top of the IRFU list of priorities.

Stev_o

CatFromHue wrote: »

not being condescending but genuinely is there evidence to back this up?

i've always heard that lomu and cullen were meant to have benefitted from sevens. id argue that these guys were so good anyway that it wouldnt have mattered if they'd played sevens or not.

Let's go with some of the top of my head who either play for Super rugby teams or are capped by the AB's

Victor Vito
Isreal Dagg
Zac Guildford
Julian Saeve
Hosea Gear
Sherwin Stowers
Corey Jane
Isaia Toeava
Rene Ranger
Tim Nanai-Williams
Kurt Baker

danthefan

Stev_o wrote: »

Let's go with some of the top of my head who either play for Super rugby teams or are capped by the AB's

Victor Vito
Isreal Dagg
Zac Guildford
Julian Saeve
Hosea Gear
Sherwin Stowers
Corey Jane
Isaia Toeava
Rene Ranger
Tim Nanai-Williams
Kurt Baker

You seem to have completely ignored the point being made. We all know they played 7s. Nobody is arguing these guys didn't play 7s. The question is are they better at actual rugby as a result of playing 7s.

Stev_o

danthefan wrote: »

You seem to have completely ignored the point being made. We all know they played 7s. Nobody is arguing these guys didn't play 7s. The question is are they better at actual rugby as a result of playing 7s.

Do you think that players don't benefit from player a very high standard of rugby where the very basics are tested more then in the XV game? Id say yes they do.

CatFromHue

Victor Vito nz secondary schools, u19, u20
Isreal Dagg nz secondary schools, u19
Zac Guildford nz secondary schools, u19, u20
Julian Saeve?
Hosea Gear nz maori, u19, u20
Sherwin Stowers nz u17, schools
Corey Jane wellington u19, colts, hawkes bay npc
Isaia Toeava nz secondary schools, nz u19
Rene Ranger ?
Tim Nanai-Williams nz u17, nz schools,
Kurt Baker nz u20

just did a quick search and the above is some of the other honours the players have. as you can see alot of these guys have been representing nz all the way up so im not sure how much sevens can be given credit for developing them.

one thing i did notice was alot of these guys played sevens around the same time or not long after they were with the u20 teams or final age group teams they played for.

the current nz sevens squad is listed on http://www.allblacks.com/index.cfm?layout=showSevens&id=9 when you look through the squad they seem to be young players not long finished with the u20s, or specialist. well predominatly anyway.

what does that mean for ireland? well maybe our sevens team if we ever get one again should be made up of u23 players. i dont think with the player numbers we have we can afford to have specialist sevens players.

Podge_irl

As far as I'm concerned 7s isn't "rugby". It's a different sport and I don't believe for a second that it's some kind of phenomenal developmental tool. Cullen et al would all have played XVs without ever having set foot on a 7s pitch. Look at some of the stars of 7s - Servei, Gollings etc. have never made much of an impact at XVs.

The Chruchill Cup is a different matter and I'm sad to see it end and was disappointed with Ireland's withdrawal from it.

CIARAN_BOYLE

ALH-06 wrote: »

In recent years, we have withdrawn from the Churchill Cup (immediately after winning the thing in 2009)

The churchill cup was an English funded tournament to help the development of Canada and USA while exposing the Saxons to a competitive competition. They invited an other three teams to expand the tournament. After winning it we weren't invited again. We didn't pull out.

Podge_irl

I'm pretty sure we weren't invited because the IRFU told them they weren't going to go anyway. It wasn't a case of them not wanting it. Kidney is on record saying he decided against entering a team cause of the provinces were complaining about the A players missing the start of pre-season (or something along those lines).

roycon

Stev_o wrote: »

Do you think that players don't benefit from player a very high standard of rugby where the very basics are tested more then in the XV game? Id say yes they do.

for outside backs its useful for any of the forwards its a waste of time they could spend doing something else. its a completely different game to rugby union. just because its in the olympics it doesnt mean money should be pumped into it.arguably it would be better to put more money into rugby league instead to develop players.

ALH-06

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

After winning it we weren't invited again. We didn't pull out.

Really? But why is that? Why would teams like Samoa and Russia be invited to play and not Scotland or Ireland A?

GiftofGab

Lads I completely disagree with the 7's. Lomu has gone on record saying the 7's has really developed his game, he mentioned that it is the most fit demanding sport he has played.

Ireland rugby is a very successful franchise. They could have a very good chance of winning a medal if they took part, which would only highlight sport and rugby in the country. Smaller lads could start of with 7's when young then transfer over to 15s.

All it would take to get a team in the olympics would be a few AIL players, a few acedemy players from munster/Leinster and maybe a few GAA players. It would not cause disruption to any league and the guys would come back faster/fitter and better players.

Podge_irl

GiftofGab wrote: »

All it would take to get a team in the olympics would be a few AIL players, a few acedemy players from munster/Leinster and maybe a few GAA players. It would not cause disruption to any league and the guys would come back faster/fitter and better players.

A few AIL players, a few academy players and a few GAA players would be torn apart by an actual 7s team filled with actual 7s players. It's a different sport.

GerM

GiftofGab wrote: »

All it would take to get a team in the olympics would be a few AIL players, a few acedemy players from munster/Leinster and maybe a few GAA players. It would not cause disruption to any league and the guys would come back faster/fitter and better players.

Sure, if you want to risk someone being on the receiving end of a serious injury. This isn't a mickey mouse sport like tag, teams like NZ and South Africa will have 100kg+ professional flankers involved in their teams. You can't put an amateur AIL guy out to be murdered by them let alone an athlete from a different sport who will probably weigh in at about 80kg at most and unfamiliar with technique. It would be a massacre.

GiftofGab

GerM wrote: »

Sure, if you want to risk someone being on the receiving end of a serious injury. This isn't a mickey mouse sport like tag, teams like NZ and South Africa will have 100kg+ professional flankers involved in their teams. You can't put an amateur AIL guy out to be murdered by them let alone an athlete from a different sport who will probably weigh in at about 80kg at most and unfamiliar with technique. It would be a massacre.

GAA players are extremely good athletes. If the likes of Kenya, japan, USA and many are competing then surely top level club rugby players and top quality GAA players can compete too. I'm sure all these lads would jump at the chance to go to the olympics.

I've watched a fair amount of 7's and it's not half as physical as you mentioned either is it that tactical. A AIL player would easily hold it's own.

Oh and new Zealand are the best in the world. I meant that with a bit of practice Ireland could compete for a silver or bronze medal in the 2016 olympics. I would just be happy if we entered a team into 2012. If Kenya can then surely we can too.

CIARAN_BOYLE

GiftofGab wrote: »

GAA players are extremely good athletes. If the likes of Kenya, japan, USA and many are competing then surely top level club rugby players and top quality GAA players can compete too. I'm sure all these lads would jump at the chance to go to the olympics.

I've watched a fair amount of 7's and it's not half as physical as you mentioned either is it that tactical. A AIL player would easily hold it's own.

Oh and new Zealand are the best in the world. I meant that with a bit of practice Ireland could compete for a silver or bronze medal in the 2016 olympics. I would just be happy if we entered a team into 2012. If Kenya can then surely we can too.

7s only starts in 2016 olympics. Ideally imo we should be selecting a sevens team and get into a few of the IRB sevens series events by 2013. I reckon if we did so we could have core status by 2015 and we could give a good competitive run to claim a top 8 finish in 2016 world cup. That would be the best case scenario for me.

sock puppet

GiftofGab wrote: »

GAA players are extremely good athletes. If the likes of Kenya, japan, USA and many are competing then surely top level club rugby players and top quality GAA players can compete too. I'm sure all these lads would jump at the chance to go to the olympics.

I've watched a fair amount of 7's and it's not half as physical as you mentioned either is it that tactical. A AIL player would easily hold it's own.

Oh and new Zealand are the best in the world. I meant that with a bit of practice Ireland could compete for a silver or bronze medal in the 2016 olympics. I would just be happy if we entered a team into 2012. If Kenya can then surely we can too.

What Kenya can or can't do is irrelevant. We're on different continents.

edit: that's not to mention the fact that Kenya did quite well at the last Sevens world cup while our team of full time professionals (sort of) were beaten by the might of Zimbabwe. To suggest that players even worse than that squad could qualify is ludicrous.

Podge_irl

A team full of AIL players would be unmercifully destroyed by Kenya. They are a good 7s team.

If there is a qualification process for the 2016 Olympics I would be amazed if Ireland got through it.

roycon

GiftofGab wrote: »

Lads I completely disagree with the 7's. Lomu has gone on record saying the 7's has really developed his game, he mentioned that it is the most fit demanding sport he has played.

Ireland rugby is a very successful franchise. They could have a very good chance of winning a medal if they took part, which would only highlight sport and rugby in the country. Smaller lads could start of with 7's when young then transfer over to 15s.

All it would take to get a team in the olympics would be a few AIL players, a few acedemy players from munster/Leinster and maybe a few GAA players. It would not cause disruption to any league and the guys would come back faster/fitter and better players.

dont forget huge amounts of money which could be spent on developing rugby in ireland in non traditional areas, building new pitches and weights rooms and paying coaches

conf101

Why are we thinking of pulling out of the U20 World Cup?

CIARAN_BOYLE

conf101 wrote: »

Why are we thinking of pulling out of the U20 World Cup?

some hack wrote an article saying we were thinking about it but I've heard nothing other than that and the article in question had several inaccuracies so I don't think its trust worthy.

JustinDee

GiftofGab wrote: »

I've watched a fair amount of 7's and it's not half as physical as you mentioned either is it that tactical. A AIL player would easily hold it's own

This is just a big bowl of wrong.

It is physical and it is a "tactical". Nor would an amateur club player would not "easily hold their own". It is faster than anything at that level would ever have experienced and that goes for the physicality too.

This isn't an end-of-season get-together in west Cork, you're talking about.

GerM

GiftofGab wrote: »

GAA players are extremely good athletes. If the likes of Kenya, japan, USA and many are competing then surely top level club rugby players and top quality GAA players can compete too. I'm sure all these lads would jump at the chance to go to the olympics.

I've watched a fair amount of 7's and it's not half as physical as you mentioned either is it that tactical. A AIL player would easily hold it's own.

Just can't agree with this whatsoever. No, there isn't the attritional nature of the 15 man game with the lack of heavy rucking and mauls but the game is very physical. I'm not talking about someone being smashed in big hits necessarily. I'm referring to technique. Put a big bloke who is a professional player on the sevens circuit against an AIL or GAA player and they'll mince them. The GAA player would be a complete liability to their own safety in a one on one tackle in terms of body position. I would be dubious to even risk a GAA player at AIL level let alone against a team of professionals.

For Ireland to be competitive they would need to invest big money in the game and dedicate some professional players to it similar to what the other countries on the sevens circuit have done. A group of amateurs would be blown out of the water and embarrassed. They would have no hope of coming close to a medal. We sent a team made up entirely of contracted players to the last world cup and lost 2 of our 3 games managing a shock win against Australia who didn't expect us to do anything at all. Samoa and Portugal gave a little more reality to our situation when they both beat us. I can only imagine the beating we'd take if it had been AIL or, heaven forbid, GAA players out there. In the Olympics, I would expect (barring a surprise result) all the teams on the international sevens circuit to beat us even if we sent a team composed of academy/fringe players. They play the game as professionals. The gap is massive; sevens and 15 a side are two different games.

pajunior

GerM wrote: »

Just can't agree with this whatsoever. No, there isn't the attritional nature of the 15 man game with the lack of heavy rucking and mauls but the game is very physical. I'm not talking about someone being smashed in big hits necessarily. I'm referring to technique. Put a big bloke who is a professional player on the sevens circuit against an AIL or GAA player and they'll mince them. The GAA player would be a complete liability to their own safety in a one on one tackle in terms of body position. I would be dubious to even risk a GAA player at AIL level let alone against a team of professionals.

For Ireland to be competitive they would need to invest big money in the game and dedicate some professional players to it similar to what the other countries on the sevens circuit have done. A group of amateurs would be blown out of the water and embarrassed. They would have no hope of coming close to a medal. We sent a team made up entirely of contracted players to the last world cup and lost 2 of our 3 games managing a shock win against Australia who didn't expect us to do anything at all. Samoa and Portugal gave a little more reality to our situation when they both beat us. I can only imagine the beating we'd take if it had been AIL or, heaven forbid, GAA players out there. In the Olympics, I would expect (barring a surprise result) all the teams on the international sevens circuit to beat us even if we sent a team composed of academy/fringe players. They play the game as professionals. The gap is massive; sevens and 15 a side are two different games.

I wonder then, if in some parallel universe we could pick any players in the country we wanted how would we do?

But anyway I don't think 7's is worth our time/money and I would prefer large tours then to the A games.

profitius

There are GAA and AIL players out there who would make good 7's players. They'd need time to adapt to the game. A few years in the case of GAA players.

As for Ireland competing in tournaments, maybe the provinces are a higher priority than Ireland A teams. I think A internationals for Ireland are important between world cup years. When the Lions tours takes place for example. Theres no point having A internationals every year because we don't have a massive pool of players now.

BTL

profitius wrote: »

I think A internationals for Ireland are important between world cup years. When the Lions tours takes place for example. Theres no point having A internationals every year because we don't have a massive pool of players now.

I would ask the following question: Do you think it should be normal for a player to play for the wolfhounds before earning a full international cap?

If you answer yes, then you need to have A internationals regularly enough to enable players to do that.

If you answer no, then why bother having an 'A' team at all? The game against the barbarians at Thomond last summer was a non-cap 'Ireland' game, where a lot of players were picked for the first time, midweek games during a summer tour could provide similar opportunties. (playing an Ireland XV vs the likes of crusaders, NZ Maori or one of the ITM Cup sides)

legendary.xix

The IRFU have to costs in some place in fairness. As long as players are developing with clubs, provinces and within the Irish set-up, I think it's the main thing. Players will get games with the Irish Wolfhounds. Players not part of the Irish set-up need to have more involvement with their provinces, not going off to the likes of the Churchill Cup.

profitius

BTL wrote: »

I would ask the following question: Do you think it should be normal for a player to play for the wolfhounds before earning a full international cap?

If you answer yes, then you need to have A internationals regularly enough to enable players to do that.

If you answer no, then why bother having an 'A' team at all? The game against the barbarians at Thomond last summer was a non-cap 'Ireland' game, where a lot of players were picked for the first time, midweek games during a summer tour could provide similar opportunties. (playing an Ireland XV vs the likes of crusaders, NZ Maori or one of the ITM Cup sides)

Coaches like to meet players and get to know them. Also they like to give players instructions to see if they are able to carry out the instructions.

I think having an A team play every year would be a waste but the last churchill cup when Ireland won it, Kidney, Smal, Kiss and Gaffney were there coaching the team so it was worthwhile. They got to see some fringe players up close including Johnny Sexton.

BTL

profitius wrote: »

Coaches like to meet players and get to know them. Also they like to give players instructions to see if they are able to carry out the instructions.

Doesn't Eric Elwood act as the coach for the wolfhounds?

I can see the benefit in terms of allowing another coach to get experience at international(ish) level by taking on the 'A' Team, but my understanding was that if Kidney wanted to coach the players, they would be playing as 'Ireland'

Luckycharm

GiftofGab wrote: »

GAA players are extremely good athletes. If the likes of Kenya, japan, USA and many are competing then surely top level club rugby players and top quality GAA players can compete too. I'm sure all these lads would jump at the chance to go to the olympics.I've watched a fair amount of 7's and it's not half as physical as you mentioned either is it that tactical. A AIL player would easily hold it's own.

Oh and new Zealand are the best in the world. I meant that with a bit of practice Ireland could compete for a silver or bronze medal in the 2016 olympics. I would just be happy if we entered a team into 2012. If Kenya can then surely we can too.

That really is hilarious- Our GAA players cannot even beat Aussie AFL players at GAA :P GAA players are not that big, cannot tackle, cannot pass a rugby ball in most cases and you think they could compete against Professional rugby players who are playing all their lives.
I am just back from the touch rugby world cup and we are Union players but it has taken us ages to get used to Touch rugby and we got well beaten by teams who had been playing Touch rugby all their lives as it is a completely different game but if you throw in players who are coming in from a sport that doesn't even use the same Shaped Ball - how long do you think they will take to adapt?

LostPassword

I don't see why the GAA boys wouldn't be up to the job. With a plucky attitude, any fit strapping fellow would be able to take on Jonah Lomu and the like for pace and power, even while giving away a lifetime of experience and practice.

A better idea would be to send out a team of top bankers - it would have the same result, but we'd get to enjoy some of the carnage at least.

Piliger

roycon wrote: »

for outside backs its useful for any of the forwards its a waste of time they could spend doing something else. its a completely different game to rugby union. just because its in the olympics it doesnt mean money should be pumped into it.arguably it would be better to put more money into rugby league instead to develop players.

Exactly. It is a completely different game and is a distraction and a loss of focus for us. No tackling. No multi-player contact and intensity. No close quarters offloading. No tactical kicking.

For the big countries like England and France who have hundreds of quality players, they can 'play' with this format for entertainment purposes. But for Ireland it is a deadly trap imho. We have limited resources in both money and players. We should keep focussed on what we are good at and not get distracted.

Stev_o

Article from PR. New Zealand Sevens legendary coach Gordon Tietjen was invited to help the squad prepare for the World Cup.

New Zealand sevens coach Gordon Tietjens' first contribution to the All Blacks' Tri-Nations preparations was a training session that left some gasping for air.

Tietjens put the bulk of a 25-man squad assembled for a two-day training camp through their paces and admitted afterwards that some players had work to do to reach the fitness levels necessary win the World Cup.

"There was a lot of running in that session, certainly more than they've done in the past, but it's good going forward," said the legendary Sevens coach.

"I wasn't here to have them break down, that's for real. They worked hard, but you certainly saw an imbalance in fitness levels. Some are really right up there now and some need to get up there - and they will - but what we did today will certainly be beneficial for them."

All Blacks Head Coach Graham Henry was pleased with what he saw, especially some players ability to remain accurate while fatigued.

"The backs, in particular the outside backs, get a lot out of sevens," said Henry.

"Usually when they get that opportunity, you look at Hosea Gear, Ben Smith and company last year, they came back from the sevens as better fifteens players. We thought we'd use his expertise to get that feel again.

"You can see why [Tietjens] teams are world champions. He certainly knows how to work the guys and the guys enjoy it. They were buggered obviously, but they got a lot out of it."

Henry suggested an expanded Tri-Nations squad could be named on July 10 to give injured players like Tony Woodcock (foot), Israel Dagg (quadricep) and Isaia Toeava (hip), extra time to recover.

"There might be one or two guys who are named who can't play initially. We'll look after them and bring in some replacements for them," he said.

Good news for Kiwi fans is that fly-half Colin Slade will return from a broken jaw next Friday during Canterbury's Ranfurly Shield defence against North Otago.