"Tough love"?

Dudess

How do people feel about the method known as "tough love"? As in, being rather forceful with a person who is experiencing a difficult issue, in order to advise them on how to deal with it, instead of being sympathetic?
Personally, while I can understand a person eventually being driven to snap due to sheer frustration at seeing a loved one continue a pattern of self destruction despite having support, I dislike "tough love" as a method of help on its own - without more sympathetic methods being tried first. Here for example - on e.g. the Personal Issues forum.
It strikes me as projecting and also borderline bullying - and it's justified with "I don't want to mollycoddle you", "I don't want to be PC" (whatever the hell "PC" has to do with it :rolleyes:) yet nobody's saying mollycoddling should be resorted to either, but rather an approach from somewhere in between mollycoddling and tough love. It's typically used when someone is upset about relationship issues or they're unhappy about being overweight - it just seems like the person delivering it is on a huge ego trip, and doesn't particularly have sympathy for, or give a sh1t about, the person they're "counselling".

I think someone who keeps making the same relationship mistakes or won't do something about their weight despite it making them unhappy needs to be told home truths, and in a firm manner. But they also need to be shown understanding and for positives to be focused on, rather than a whole bunch of negatives.

Tough love to me just seems like a way of making a person who already feels sh1t feel even more sh1t.

Loopie

I do think it depends on the person who is in receipt of the "tough love" approach - some people know what they need to do in a particular situation but just need time to adjust to it; others may react to tough love as a positive thing.

At the end of the day though, if someone isn't ready to do something, they won't do it. Or they will, be it a half hearted approach and ultimately not really sorting them out in the end.

Notwithstanding the above, tough love can sometimes be more about someone being sick of listening to someone else going on about a situation, it's their way of telling them to STFU!!!

Ickle Magoo

I think it can also depend on the person giving the advice, their experiences with the issue and how many times said advice has been given or how common sense they view the advice.

There is also that some people just don't do tea and endless sympathy very well and shoot from the hip - no bad thing. As for PI, well, you post on a public forum for a range of advice and that's exactly what you are gonna get - like in real life those that don't wish to hear certain advice can skim over/ignore the bits they'd rather not hear.

NomdePlume

Everytime I hear "tough love" I think about a family friend.

D was an alcoholic, married for over 20 years to a very sweet woman who tried many times to get help for him. When she reached a point of desperation in dealing with him, she started attending some kind of help group for family/friends of addicts.

Someone there told her she was an 'enabler' and that the best way to help him was to get really tough with him. She decided to try it, and told D that he had to leave the family home; and not to come back until he was sober. She did set him up with a temporary bed somewhere.
The next day he was found dead; some kind of overdose, we don't know if it was accidental.

Of course it wasn't her fault, but his wife has spent the past few years living with terrible guilt and sadness over what happened. The term "tough love" always makes me think of them.

This post isn't intended to frighten anyone out of any tactic, or to suggest that all cases are the same. Just giving my immediate feelings on the topic.

Ickle Magoo

^^^ The poor woman - straight from the guilt of being accused of being an enabler to feeling responsible for his death by meting out some tough love.

Da Shins Kelly

It really depends on the person. If someone is dealing with some sort of bereavement or something, then obviously tough love isn't really appropriate. If someone is acting like a d*ck, on the other hand (for example, drinking themselves into a moronic stupor in order to deal with other issues, such as confidence or whatever), then tough love is appropriate. I've dished out my fair share of harsh words to people I thought were acting like idiots. Doesn't always work though. Sometimes, if a person is really hellbent on making a fool of themselves, it doesn't make a difference what you say, and sometimes they'll even go the extra mile to defy you.

Dudess

Not being snide but I really thought I made it clear that I'm not referring to tough love being delivered to those who are just exasperating and unreasonable, or devastated over something completely non devastating and need a cup of cop-the-****-on. I'm referring to tough love being seen as the first port of call when a person looks for help and is upset. Doesn't seem like the person dishing it out is interested in helping at all. I'm not having a dig at the Personal Issues forum Ickle - it's a forum I have great respect for, and the majority of contributors seem really genuine. I just cited it as an example of people occasionally being unnecessarily harsh that's "close by".

neveah

I think tough love is the last port of call when trying to help someone. I know if there was something bothering me I would confide in my best friend. She listens to me, advises me, supports me, doesn't judge me, offers other points of view I haven't considered and I always feel better once I speak to her. I'm very lucky to have her in my life. I know some of my other friends who would be judgemental and a bit narrowminded so I tend not to confide in them about stuff. My point being I think if you are a person who only dishes out tough love then you will find people won't approach you as much for advice.

I think tough love used initially on someone who is fragile and upset can be detremental, it can push them down even more when they are already down, but it really all depends on the situation. On the PI forum we only know what the OP is telling us and this can be a very brief synopsis of their situation and obviously we are are only getting one side of the story so it can be hard to judge what type of advice to give. I think mainly people there are looking for some reassurance and general feedback, however I agree that sometimes people can be overly harsh with their responses, at the end of the day we are all human and we all make mistakes. Saying that when you post on a public forum you have got to expect many different types of responses as people will not share the same views as you, but I still think that tough love and getting on your moral high horse isn't going to help the majority of people seeking advice imo. I'm not a trained counsellor or anything but I would think that constructive advice in a non-aggressive, non-judgemental tone is probably more beneficial. When things escalate to a point when all other avenues have been explored then maybe it's time to dish out some tough love.

Dudess

Dudess wrote: »

Not being snide but I really thought I made it clear that I'm not referring to tough love being delivered to those who are just exasperating and unreasonable, or devastated over something completely non devastating and need a cup of cop-the-****-on. I'm referring to tough love being seen as the first port of call when a person looks for help and is upset. Doesn't seem like the person dishing it out is interested in helping at all. I'm not having a dig at the Personal Issues forum Ickle - it's a forum I have great respect for, and the majority of contributors seem really genuine. I just cited it as an example of people occasionally being unnecessarily harsh that's "close by".

I guess I can be a bit blunt on that forum... not for the most serious stuff though, I hope.

Dudess

No bluewolf, I'm not referring to you at all. There are times some people just need to be told to get a grip - for freaking out over their high heels or something. But when a person posts something heartfelt, and they're really upset - even if it's for something that they have control over, it's just cringey to see someone come along and tear them to pieces. I don't associate you with being like that.

Ickle Magoo

Dudess, this thread ran as a general discussion but you keep referring to posters - tLL shouldn't be a platform for complaining about another forum, that discussion is far more appropriate in feedback or in PM with the mods/cmods of the forum in question.

Dudess

It isn't intended as that at all - I can't think of the names of specific posters who do this, so there's no personal dig there - I was just using it as an example of where this phenomenon is prevalent that everyone here would be familiar with.

I think most people who ask for advice already know the answer to their problem they just need help gathering all their thought together and making sense of things...so if anyone asks for help/advice a good way to start the conversation is to say ..what do YOU think you should do....

I can be a bit straight forward at time and am not good at with someone endless discussing something that I know they are never going to do anything about....if you keep making the same mistakes over and over again in relationships your friend ( while being understanding and supportive as a friend should be ) is entitled to tell you to cop on in the nicest possible way!

As for issue to do with weight it is hard to here someone say I'm giving up bread but at the same time you know they are going to go out drinking the whole weekend ...I am curious about this do people really think when someone says the above a friend should nod and say that a good ideas and not point out that maybe it might be better to cut down on the drinking and keep meeting a small amount of bread?

Eve_Dublin

mariaalice wrote: »

I can be a bit straight forward at time and am not good at with someone endless discussing something that I know they are never going to do anything about....if you keep making the same mistakes over and over again in relationships your friend ( while being understanding and supportive as a friend should be ) is entitled to tell you to cop on in the nicest possible way!

Yeah. Sometimes I think there's a presumption by some people that you WON'T take the advice given to them and they immediately try the tough love approach without giving the person the benefit of the doubt.

I've looked for advice on there before over one or two issues and while most posters got straight to the point with a lot of tact and kindness, one or two posters seemed to be venting their spleens on my situation and even stated that I probably won't take the advice anyway so what was the point in giving it (I did actually take the advice...advice I already knew myself but just needed that extra kick up the bum) and that hurt. I was feeling vulnerable and crap about myself and didn't need another kick when I was down and to be told I was probably too weak to do anything about it.

Down with tough love. I usually give general advice...a few options for the person or what I might do in their situation but it's always delivered in a kind manner (unless of course it's something totally ridiculous and then I'd tell them to snap out of it in a joking manner).

It can be frustrating when someoen doesn't seem to be taking your advice over a long period of time but what has to be remembered is that people will take people a while to see the wood for the trees and it takes courage to take that step. It seems as if some people forget that themselves or have no experience and in turn, no empathy.

As well as that, whose to say your advice is good advice and should be taken anyway?

newmug

Dudess wrote: »

How do people feel about the method known as "tough love"? As in, being rather forceful with a person who is experiencing a difficult issue, in order to advise them on how to deal with it, instead of being sympathetic?
Personally, while I can understand a person eventually being driven to snap due to sheer frustration at seeing a loved one continue a pattern of self destruction despite having support, I dislike "tough love" as a method of help on its own - without more sympathetic methods being tried first. Here for example - on e.g. the Personal Issues forum.
It strikes me as projecting and also borderline bullying - and it's justified with "I don't want to mollycoddle you", "I don't want to be PC" (whatever the hell "PC" has to do with it :rolleyes:) yet nobody's saying mollycoddling should be resorted to either, but rather an approach from somewhere in between mollycoddling and tough love. It's typically used when someone is upset about relationship issues or they're unhappy about being overweight - it just seems like the person delivering it is on a huge ego trip, and doesn't particularly have sympathy for, or give a sh1t about, the person they're "counselling".

I think someone who keeps making the same relationship mistakes or won't do something about their weight despite it making them unhappy needs to be told home truths, and in a firm manner. But they also need to be shown understanding and for positives to be focused on, rather than a whole bunch of negatives.

Tough love to me just seems like a way of making a person who already feels sh1t feel even more sh1t.

Dudess wrote: »

Not being snide but I really thought I made it clear that I'm not referring to tough love being delivered to those who are just exasperating and unreasonable, or devastated over something completely non devastating and need a cup of cop-the-****-on. I'm referring to tough love being seen as the first port of call when a person looks for help and is upset.

Nah, I didnt get that from your first post at all OP. I put it up just to compare.



IMO tough love is an attempt to motivate the person recieving it. I dont think there's anything wrong with it, its an aspect of problem solving which must be considered if one is serious about overcoming whatever problem they have. Whether or not their problem is a-mountain-out-of-a-molehill, or a real serious issue, tough love is the psychological "positivizer". It makes you think "hey, fcuk you. I'm not letting this problem beat me".

There is a danger however, that the person recieving it is in too fragile a state for it to work. If thats the case, no amount of tough love will work. The person recieving it probably has other issues that you dont know about, as in the alcoholic instance above. Having said that, I doubt any amount of "soft" love would work on a person that fragile either. If they're at that stage, professional help may be needed.

Just with regard to weight, I think healthy weighted people dish out tough love to obese people the most because its so visible. If someone was a black-hole of need, you wont know that until you talk to them. But with obese people, you see them coming a mile away. One of my mates described what he instinctively feels when he sees an obese person by saying "I feel disgusted. Its like someone sh1ts their pants and then walks around all day with it, looking for someone else to clean them up".



All that being said, if you go into a strange town and politely ask for directions, and the person tells you to get off your arse and buy a map, thats NOT tough love. Thats just them being an arsehole.

Maple

Folks, can we please stop referring to Personal Issues in this thread or else we will be forced to close the thread.

Thanks,

Maple

LittleBook

OK well first of all for there to be "tough love" I believe there has to be "love".

It can be extremely frustrating to watch a person you care about making the same mistakes over and over again and, in this instance, I can see where a "tough love" approach could work BUT ... the toughness has to come from a genuine desire to help rather than a personal frustration or loss of patience.

mikemac

When a person has an issue they generally already know the answer

When I was in college a diet of fast food and many, many pints saw my weight explode.
None of friends said anything and "sure I'm not so bad" and "sure I'll excerise more next week" :rolleyes:
Except one friend pulled me aside, told me straight and it like was a punch in the stomach :eek:
But I'm glad and I worked damn hard to get into shape and got the compliments that go with that

If someone in a marraige is an alcoholic and it can be the wife just as easily as the husband then being nice and giving advice isn't always going to work. I don't know the exact solution but some tough love like "you're drinking away your business, our savings and you're distant from me and the kids" might give a shock. Maybe?

An alcoholic or overweight person knows the solution. They might need help but mollycoddling and enabling isn't going to do a lot for them

Maple

I completely understand the premise behind tough love. It's hard to listen to someone go on and on about a situation that they themselves are enabling so yes, I do understand the "cop yourself on" approach when the more sympathetic approach has not worked. But I do still think that you can be tough but fair and that's the important difference for me.

What I cannot abide is the ranty, preachy, completely devoid of any human sentiment kind of "tough love". In this instance I think it more cruelty and venting of spleen, there is nothing loving about it. It's just ranting at an already vulnerable person and kicking them while they are already down, because they are doing something that you would not. Or at least you think you would not but don't know because you're not in their situation.

spinandscribble

Tough love has its place, but its got to come from love. Like when you care about someone so much you or you feel for them so much that it hurts you but you gotta set them straight. its not the place of say a stranger to walk up to another stranger and tell them "you're fat/drunk/acting like a idiot get help"

tough love is not (swearing at someone because you're pissed, hitting them, belittling them, enjoying yourself ect).

tough love is (being honest/no sugar coating, telling someone exactly how they make you feel/those around them/ getting them/accessing the help they need to get better).

I've been on the receiving end of tough love, for a period of two years, before I realised it for what it was - sheer and utter bullying and manipulation. The fact that I got worse and worse during it, meant that this "friend" (my friend's fiance actually) could keep upping the toughness of the "love" to continue to make me grow up or snap out of it. I'm sure that true tough love does exist and can be administered, but any cases of it I have observed, it's just an excuse to cover over being unsympathetic or forceful.

LittleBook

Deleted User wrote: »

I've been on the receiving end of tough love, for a period of two years, before I realised it for what it was - sheer and utter bullying and manipulation. The fact that I got worse and worse during it, meant that this "friend" (my friend's fiance actually) could keep upping the toughness of the "love" to continue to make me grow up or snap out of it. I'm sure that true tough love does exist and can be administered, but any cases of it I have observed, it's just an excuse to cover over being unsympathetic or forceful.

This is not tough love, this is (as you say) pure and utter bullying. Please don't tolerate it, this person couldn't care less about you.

The more I think about it, the more I see that the expression (as I understood it) has become corrupted.

I don't know if there is a psychological definition of it but Cambridge online describes it as:

when people intentionally do not show too much kindness to a person who has a problem so that the person will start to solve their own problem

So it appears it's less about actively doing or saying anything "tough", than simply avoiding encouraging or enabling the person with the problem.

wild_cat

It depends on the situation really.

With regards to weight if I knew the person personally and it wasn't in an internet capacity I'd suggest taking up walking together or something of the sort just as a starter. If that failed I'd invite them over for healthy meals and show them that healthy choices can be very enjoyable eats.

If that was ignored I'd just ask straight out why they think that they have reached that size and see if anything can be done there. If it got to the stage where none of that worked I'd probably still listen but my responses would be more damming health wise not vanity wise.

I've seen so called tough love before. A friend basically broke down in front of myself and another friend before. The other listening party responded with "your just lazy, snap out of it". I was so shocked I said nothing, but I wish to this day I had told her to get out of the room.


Two years down the line the suffering friend was found to have OCD and an anxiety disorder. I've been told since that what was said to her that day was one of the most hurtful things she has ever heard and it made her worse.


You have to be very careful on the advice high horse, people may leave out details showing they are more sensitive then they are letting on to be.

The Sweeper

Dudess wrote: »

I think someone who keeps making the same relationship mistakes or won't do something about their weight despite it making them unhappy needs to be told home truths, and in a firm manner. But they also need to be shown understanding and for positives to be focused on, rather than a whole bunch of negatives.

Tough love to me just seems like a way of making a person who already feels sh1t feel even more sh1t.

I think it depends on the nature of the problem the 'victim' is presenting.

Most people, I believe, won't launch themselves at someone who is having a bit of a sook about themselves and tell them to cop on. If a friend of yours starts to tell you that they're feeling a bit down, and a bit fat, and a bit rubbish, if you're a good friend, you'll give them a cuddle and listen and let them get it all off their chest and jolly them along, in the knowledge that if you're having a bad day, they'll do the same for you.

However, many of us are 'fix-it' people. If someone comes and complains to us about something, we may make some suggestions to them, or try to help make it better. If it's a genuine problem, our help is appreciated and we can be of assistance in creating an improvement.

If it's not a genuine problem, and if the person purporting this problem is just having a whinge and - and this bit is improtant - if the action of whinging at people for their attention and sympathy is the aim of the exercise, then that renders us 'fix-it' types useless, and we become frustrated, and the next time someone opens with 'GOD none of my clothes FIT ME anymore it's RIDICULOUS, but it's not my fault, I've tried every diet in the - "

We cut them off, snapping "Eat less, do more, if you stopped feeding your face your clothes would fit".

And what happens then, is that the person doing the whinging is horrified by such unsympathetic treatment (because remember, the sympathy was the goal all along) and they turn to someone else, and they say 'Miss Fix-it was a total roaring bitch to me today, I mean, all I was doing was just saying I'm feeling a bit overweight and she knows that upsets me, and she was so mean to me!!'

And what happens then?

Well then they get sympathy.

Saying that, biting the head off someone when they present their whinging to you really isn't tough love. It's just a sign of your own frustration. There are better ways to negotiate around a behaviour you fear is destructive with someone who's really your friend.

Pyr0

It all comes down to the issue and how often it's brought up. A good example would be a friend complaining about his/her weight over and over, yet doing nothing about it. I'd take an understanding/caring stance the first few times, offer a suggestion to improve things here and there and just generally show my support for them but if the behavior still continues with no improvement, I'd take a tougher course of action and to be honest, not be inclined to speak about it with them again unless they actually made some effort to improve their situation.