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employer says im out of favour

  • 21-04-2011 10:45am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1


    not let go or sacked just out of favour is this right can this happen can i sign on anyone know of simular situtation


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 180 ✭✭D.McC


    What excatly do you mean, 'out of favour'. Are you still working or sitting at home waiting to return to favour


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,290 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Did he give you a P45 and take your keys/access-card/cellphone/whatever off you?

    Is he expecting you to turn up on Tuesday (or whenever you'd next regularly be working)?

    Do you have regular hours, or are you casual?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭Pablo Sanchez


    Perhaps he just means your skating on thin ice, they will be watching you carefully you you have to work hard to get back in favour.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    not let go or sacked just out of favour is this right can this happen can i sign on anyone know of simular situtation

    Yes. You can be sacked for being "out of favour". As long as you're not being sacked because of your age/race/sex - you can be sacked for no reason at all. Never mind company manuals - they are not binding legal agreements.

    Ireland is a fire at will country. There is virtually no employee protection.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,441 ✭✭✭jhegarty


    krd wrote: »
    Yes. You can be sacked for being "out of favour". As long as you're not being sacked because of your age/race/sex - you can be sacked for no reason at all. Never mind company manuals - they are not binding legal agreements.

    Ireland is a fire at will country. There is virtually no employee protection.

    Why would you post such a load of bull ?

    Once you have been working somewhere for 12 months they need a good reason to fire you. Examples would be gross misconduct , or a history of poor performance.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    jhegarty wrote: »
    Why would you post such a load of bull ?

    Once you have been working somewhere for 12 months they need a good reason to fire you. Examples would be gross misconduct , or a history of poor performance.

    No you can be fired without reason. Regardless of length of service. Redundancy exactly the same as getting fired. You can be fired/made redundant for no reason.

    You just can not get fired for a reason that is considered discriminatory under law. That is age/sex/race.

    Ireland is only second to Singapore for labour flexibility.

    Grievance processes are not fixed in law. They're completely at the discretion of the employer.

    It's like this. The Irish work place is like an Irish primary school. Irish managers usually are uneducated, so they base their management style on a primary school teacher that they remember. Then the line managers run the rest like a school yard. It's just like an Irish primary school. Fall out of favour and you're gone. Work in Ireland is a childrens' game. Played by scummy children.

    If someone is genuinely performing badly at their job. They can be sacked within two weeks, or even a few days if you expedite the process. If they're not - and it's just a personality thing, it can be a little harder - harder is not impossible. In the case it's personality usually a campaign of bullying is used.

    It's always easy to sack someone. Set them impossible performance goals. And then "discipline" them when they fail to hit the impossible targets. I had a "boss", one time, who like to sack people for lates. He would make "records" of people being late by a minute here and a minute there - very hard to argue with if someone is saying you came in at a two minutes past nine - Who can tell if it's 9.00 or 9.02. Anyway, the lates were bogus. He was just one of these scumbags who liked to have everyone on a permanent written warning. He liked to keep people on their toes. And eventually he gets fired for destroying the company - but that's another story.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,290 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Krd, can you post some links to support what you've posted please.

    I have some sympathy for your point: a cunning manager can pretty much always find a way to "deal with" an employee they don't like - and not just in Ireland either.

    But it's overstated IMHO, and a post full of generalisations without any references isn't welcome or helpful.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭doolox


    Ireland has the least protection for employees in Europe and relies heavily on its public sector and a small, and getting smaller, section of the private sector who have strong union backing. A lot of those Joint Labour agreements are under threat at the moment, in the interest of "labour force flexibility", otherwise known as cheap labour.

    At the moment it is probably better to free-lance and work casually on a self-employed basis for a number ( ideally large ) of different clients.

    In my present set-up I do a few hours here and there for a number of clients and keep marketing for more. The hours are short. The absence of office politics is very refreshing and the best part of the job is that what I do is unique and cannot be compared to other workers, especially other non-national workers. So far the feedback has been very positive and I have lost only one client to an offer of free service from another friend....you cannot possibly compete with that.....all the rest I have retained.

    In many cases the only remaining reason for the 9-5 "permanent" job is that banks will not grant you a mortgage without a "secure" job. As these become scarcer and more people become unemployed, semi-employed, under-employed etc banks will have to think of other ways of measuring clients ability to make repayments as the nature of work changes.

    There are no other remaining attractions to a permanent 9-5 job.
    You cannot get holidays when you need them and taking your full holiday entitlement is now actively discouraged. Time management, in the sense of leaving work on time after a full days work, is replaced with the odious practice of unpaid overtime and short-notice unpaid weekend work.
    VHI and pensions are now minimal and must be paid by the employee, once they were paid in many places by the employer. Most workplaces are now highly competitive and hostile places where everyone is out to cut you down and get their friend/brother/sister/partner etc into your job. The old Irish phrase "holding down a job" now gets new meaning as , if you dont hold it down it will be robbed off you.

    It is important to develop a scarce, ideally unique, skill and the ability to sell the skill to a willing market.
    It is important to always look for feedback and when given it to acknowledge it and work on it.
    It is vitally important to foster new markets and people for your service and be always busy when asked for more business. People will plan and book ahead if they think not to do so will lose you to other clients.

    It is vitally important to keep developing and improving the breadth and versatility of your service so that people don't get fed-up of the same old stuff, but for other people, routine is vital.

    I am very lucky in that I came from a self-employed background and have a wife whose father was a farmer and did casual work so that the change from fulltime employment is not a big shock as it would be for some people. My father was self-employed and I started off earning my first crust the same way. When I entered "mainstream" employment for the first time the hours, the workpace, the attitude towards "sickies" and the ability to take holidays virtually at will was a revelation. In the intervening 25 years the Irish workplace, even the multinational one, has become tightly controlled, demanding, hostile, bitchy and offers no advantage over self-employment in terms of security, fringe benefits, sick pay etc that once existed. In that time nearly all the benefits of regular employment for most moderately skilled or qualified people have been eaten away. The benefits for self-employed people without some unique or scarce skill is even more limited.

    The difficulties of the contemporary Irish workplace are compounded for people who exhibit differences to the mainstream workforce and cannot, through no fault of their own, "fit in" or integrate with that workforce. The school yard analogy of the previous poster, while sounding bitter, is not far off the mark and, for some people, large teams or organisations with manifold rules and politics are complex, difficult and baffling. Unfortunately most bosses will not make allowances for these differences and the affected people quickly become outsiders, to be let go at the first hint of difficulty.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭doolox


    I missed that point in my last reply about Irish Managers being uneducated and find that inaccurate at best, down right incorrect if my experience is anything to go by. Supervisors in my last place of work ( I saw some of their CV's) all had to have level 8 honours degres and post graduate quals in business for the Science/Eng grads.

    Unfortunately very few had good people or leadership skills and were not very inspiring but there were one or two exceptions who did their best and were a pleasure to work for. Its great when you can trust your manager.

    If by uneducated trd refers to appropriate knowledge of human factors, motivation, job enrichment, leadership, inspiration then, yes, Irish managment are uneducated. Those who hire and select them are not looking for those qualities however and are only interested in short-term survival and the bottom line of immediate, short-term profit.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭LimeFruitGum


    Sounds like he was giving our OP an 'unofficial' kind of warning?
    Do you have the option of going back and asking him if there is anything you're falling down on, in terms of performance?
    If nothing else, you can use that meeting to show that you were trying to address a potential performance issue before it escalated.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,263 ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    Probation can last for a year at most (apart from a few exceptions). After this, you have to "manage someone out" if you want to get rid of them, without making them redundant. This is not a quick or pleasant process for anyone. To say it can be done in a couple of weeks is misinformed. I'm talking about office environments though, others might be different.

    I didn't realise that Ireland has the least protection for employees - to be honest, I'd hate to run a business in a country where there's even more protection!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭Ophiopogon


    krd wrote: »
    No you can be fired without reason. Regardless of length of service. Redundancy exactly the same as getting fired. You can be fired/made redundant for no reason.

    You just can not get fired for a reason that is considered discriminatory under law. That is age/sex/race.

    Ireland is only second to Singapore for labour flexibility.

    Grievance processes are not fixed in law. They're completely at the discretion of the employer.

    It's like this. The Irish work place is like an Irish primary school. Irish managers usually are uneducated, so they base their management style on a primary school teacher that they remember. Then the line managers run the rest like a school yard. It's just like an Irish primary school. Fall out of favour and you're gone. Work in Ireland is a childrens' game. Played by scummy children.

    If someone is genuinely performing badly at their job. They can be sacked within two weeks, or even a few days if you expedite the process. If they're not - and it's just a personality thing, it can be a little harder - harder is not impossible. In the case it's personality usually a campaign of bullying is used.

    It's always easy to sack someone. Set them impossible performance goals. And then "discipline" them when they fail to hit the impossible targets. I had a "boss", one time, who like to sack people for lates. He would make "records" of people being late by a minute here and a minute there - very hard to argue with if someone is saying you came in at a two minutes past nine - Who can tell if it's 9.00 or 9.02. Anyway, the lates were bogus. He was just one of these scumbags who liked to have everyone on a permanent written warning. He liked to keep people on their toes. And eventually he gets fired for destroying the company - but that's another story.


    What your saying makes no sense...if you cannot be fired for age/sex/race than surely you have to be given a reason as to why your being fired, otherwise how would you know its not discrimination??

    Also, it is perfectly reasonable for a boss to keep time records...if your work starts at nine than you should arrive before nine to be available to work at nine...not arrive at nine. Even if its just a few mins, if its happening regularly its adds up.

    Ireland IMO is by far not the worst with regards to employee rights we just have a lot of spoilt people who do not like getting told off, you are there to work!!

    In saying this I am in no way saying that workplace bullying does not exsit in order to fire someone but I do also think that the words "it's not fair" are thrown about a bit too freely at the moment, again IMO.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    doolox wrote: »
    I missed that point in my last reply about Irish Managers being uneducated and find that inaccurate at best, down right incorrect if my experience is anything to go by. Supervisors in my last place of work ( I saw some of their CV's) all had to have level 8 honours degres and post graduate quals in business for the Science/Eng grads.

    Different places will be different. I don't really have a problem with anyone not having a degree. And having a degree, even a pretty high degree, will not guarantee the person's intelligence.

    Strange as it may sound. There can be a contempt for educated people. This is not just an Irish thing. There can be instances where all the production staff are educated to degree level, and an ill equip school drop out, is promoted to manage them. A school drop out with a chip on their shoulder. Really, just an ignorant child.
    Unfortunately very few had good people or leadership skills and were not very inspiring but there were one or two exceptions who did their best and were a pleasure to work for. Its great when you can trust your manager.

    I really don't believe in the idea of charismatic leadership as management technique. I don't really believe anyone buys into it - apart from managers who want to think of themselves as Bono. Or individuals on some vague but epic quest. Whatever happened to just getting people to do their work, methodically and well. Why does it have to be Jesus Christ Superstar.

    Careful keeping an eye on the essentials, and just getting people to do their job, actually works.

    The pyramids were not built by motivational gurus.
    If by uneducated trd refers to appropriate knowledge of human factors, motivation, job enrichment, leadership, inspiration then, yes, Irish managment are uneducated. Those who hire and select them are not looking for those qualities however and are only interested in short-term survival and the bottom line of immediate, short-term profit.

    I have very rarely seen a manager laser sharp focused on the bottom line.

    Often they're running around in a fantasy world. The bottom line is their own self interest. Your typical awful manager, will get rid of anyone they think is a threat to them, they'll only promote people they think will not threaten their position, they'll avoid hiring people they think could become a threat to them. You end up with workplaces full of dribbling idiots, who shouldn't even be in employment. Forget about the bottom line, it's all about the managers bottom.

    There's an economic theory; creative destruction. That the market takes care of bad management. In that it kills itself off. This is true. But in boom times, the rot can really set itself in, without the negative consequences being readily apparent. The most glaring example in Ireland is the banks. There are many businesses folding that even given the economic conditions should not be. They just have incompetent management, incapable of adjusting.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    doolox wrote: »
    The difficulties of the contemporary Irish workplace are compounded for people who exhibit differences to the mainstream workforce and cannot, through no fault of their own, "fit in" or integrate with that workforce. The school yard analogy of the previous poster, while sounding bitter, is not far off the mark and, for some people, large teams or organisations with manifold rules and politics are complex, difficult and baffling. Unfortunately most bosses will not make allowances for these differences and the affected people quickly become outsiders, to be let go at the first hint of difficulty.

    You can split people many ways. To make a point I'm going to split people into two groups.

    One: there are people who can cope with a diverse workplace. Who can cope with other people who do not have the same background and lifestyles as themselves. People who have different tastes even.

    Two: there are people who can not cope with people who are different to them. They can't "get on" with them. They think anyone who does not share their lifestyle, aspirations and tastes, is "weird" and upsetting. These people are emotionally and intellectually incapable of handling diversity.

    Group number two are the racists, the sexists, the bigots. They're the backward people. The ignorant people. The bad people. The evil people. These people are Hitler's children. In my humble opinion.

    Even in Ireland, there are diverse workplaces, and then there are those that are not. If you like a particular kind of bockety Irishness to your working life, the less diverse workplace would be the best fit for you. From many people these workplaces are suffocating. They either fake conformity for the sake of holding onto their job, leave or get sacked for going against the grain.

    People like to think of group two as the "average" people, the "normal" people. And it's this kind of "normality" and "averagness" that has destroyed the country.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    Ophiopogon wrote: »
    What your saying makes no sense...if you cannot be fired for age/sex/race than surely you have to be given a reason as to why your being fired, otherwise how would you know its not discrimination??

    Maybe it doesn't make sense to you, because it's a little above your little head. Would I be wasting my breath explaining it to you? I think you're just being facetious.
    Also, it is perfectly reasonable for a boss to keep time records...if your work starts at nine than you should arrive before nine to be available to work at nine...not arrive at nine. Even if its just a few mins, if its happening regularly its adds up.

    Yes it does really add up. I once had a disciplinary for being late 30 times in six months. Shocking isn't it. Anyone late that number of times should be sacked. Who could stand for that. I was late 30 times in six months - on average 2 minutes late each time. It all adds up. In six months I was late a total of 1 hour. That one hour nearly destroyed the company. Every penny counts.

    The truth is I was never late. I was always at my desk long before the start of work. Only pissy ****, my manager, wouldn't let me log in on my phone before 9. And pissy **** had me up for a disciplinary.

    Imagine how hard is was for me not to laugh, when the thick *** in HR said "Late 30 times in six months, an average of two minutes each time. It all adds up and costs the company". That's what she said I nearly offered to put my hand in my pocket and refund them the whole hour. Even the employers PRSI.
    Ireland IMO is by far not the worst with regards to employee rights we just have a lot of spoilt people who do not like getting told off, you are there to work!!

    In Ernst & Youngs 2010 Global Index of 60 countries (Which includes places like Nigeria, Iran, and Algeria) Ireland comes in at number two - just behind Hong Kong (ruled by the communist party of China)

    However, E&Y give Ireland a labour market flexibility score of 6.10 (the US have a score of 3.3). Which puts Ireland in pole position for labour flexibilty (which simply means how easy it is to sack people)

    Ireland is a fire at will country. Irish workers have the least rights in the world. In dictatorships like China and Iran, workers have more rights.

    We're number 1 for being the sh1ttiest place on earth for workers. And number two for being the best country in the world for greedy fat cats. Meow!!!!

    If you don't believe me read the report. The world chart is page 28.

    E&Y Globalisation index 2010.

    I'm sorry. But stop the lights.
    In saying this I am in no way saying that workplace bullying does not exsit in order to fire someone but I do also think that the words "it's not fair" are thrown about a bit too freely at the moment, again IMO.

    Something tells me, your idea of "fair" is "if it feels good, do it!"

    Then again you may be a decent person who has just become corrupted. And at heart you're good and worthy of admiration and love.

    However, my friend, if you have done wicked things, if your mind has become wicked, it's still not to late to change. Don't get to the end of your life, tormented on your death bed for all the hateful things you've done. You can be redeemed.

    My friend. Get yourself on the path of the righteous.

    Ezekiel 25:17. "The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."


    Do not await the judgment of the Lord. If you are wanting. He has a short patience for arseholes.

    Do not be found wanting before Lord.... my friend.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,359 ✭✭✭dunworth1


    krd wrote: »
    Maybe it doesn't make sense to you, because it's a little above your little head. Would I be wasting my breath explaining it to you? I think you're just being facetious.

    I think that he makes a very valid point you cant be fired for age/gender etc.
    but whats to say that they arent firing you because of one of those reasons anyway.
    maybe i'm reading you point incorrectly but you said that you can be firied for no reason.
    if so then why bother having it in law that you cant be fired for your age/gender etc. if the employer dosent need to give a reason.

    it really does not make sense


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭IRISHREDSTAR


    It depends on who you work for if you work for one of the big multinationals you have no rights but if the company is small you might have some rights it depends on who they are.
    The labour court is run for by ibec and the public sector unions and is rotten.
    You can be sacked at will, your boss just has to make up a any reason he likes that sounds fair.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭Ophiopogon


    Well done KRD, that last post went completely over my head...... :eek: words fail me!!!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    dunworth1 wrote: »
    I think that he makes a very valid point you cant be fired for age/gender etc.
    but whats to say that they arent firing you because of one of those reasons anyway.
    maybe i'm reading you point incorrectly but you said that you can be firied for no reason.
    if so then why bother having it in law that you cant be fired for your age/gender etc. if the employer dosent need to give a reason.

    it really does not make sense

    It's a funny thing. Essentially Ireland is a fire at will country. But, in the case of discrimination the employee does not need absolute proof. All the employee needs is a narrative of the workplace (who got let go, who didn't, who was promoted, who wasn't) . If that narrative can be interpreted as discriminatory on the basis of age/sex/race, the employee has a good case - it could just be coincidental.

    It is really funny. You can be fired for no reason. As long as you weren't fired for your age/race/sex. See, it's not alright to dislike someone for their age/race/sex - but it's fine to dislike someone because you think they're a little weird, or they don't like rugby, or don't speak in the same accent as you.

    Things have really gotten out of hand. Labour market flexibility, is a good thing, within reason. It goes haywire when people begin to believe it is appropriate and even moral to sack someone on a whim, just because it's perfectly legal for them to do so.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    Ophiopogon wrote: »
    Well done KRD, that last post went completely over my head...... :eek: words fail me!!!

    On a serious note. Check out the Ernst and Young report. A lot of what you hear about Ireland being uncompetitive is pretty much propaganda internal to this country. Our economic problems are not down to competitively - they're down to cowboy builders.

    We're literally one wrung on the ladder beneath communist China.

    How much further can we go? IBEC it seems, would like us to become some kind of capitalist North Korea.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    krd, I'm not going to bother quoting any of your posts.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/fair_grounds_for_dismissal.html

    The unfair dismissals act places the onus on the employer to prove that there was a valid reason for an employee's dismissal.

    Obviously employers are free to say "you're fired" just because they don't like you. But then this is the same in all countries around the world. There is no country (afaik) where the employer has to "apply" to dismiss a worker or any of that kind of nonsense.

    Your contention that Ireland is a "fire at will" country is just 100% incorrect. Once 12 months of employment have been completed, the employer must have a valid reason to dismiss an employee.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    seamus wrote: »
    krd, I'm not going to bother quoting any of your posts.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/fair_grounds_for_dismissal.html

    The unfair dismissals act places the onus on the employer to prove that there was a valid reason for an employee's dismissal.

    Obviously employers are free to say "you're fired" just because they don't like you. But then this is the same in all countries around the world. There is no country (afaik) where the employer has to "apply" to dismiss a worker or any of that kind of nonsense.

    Your contention that Ireland is a "fire at will" country is just 100% incorrect. Once 12 months of employment have been completed, the employer must have a valid reason to dismiss an employee.

    No. I am afraid you are wrong.

    You're really talking semantics. Ernest & Young rate Ireland 6.2 for labour market flexibility and the US with 3.3, Germany gets 3.88.

    In Germany if you sack someone without an absolutely rock solid reason, not only will you have to pay compensation, you may be forced to re-instate the person. In Ireland, only in exceptional cases is there a pay out above a months wage.

    The awards in Ireland for unfair dismissal are so miserable it's usually not worth the bother pursuing them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,263 ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    Is that report implying that employees have more protection in the US than here?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    Some awful advice in this thread.

    EAT can award up to 2 years salary for an unfair dismissal and reinstatement is also an option.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/unfair_dismissal.html
    http://www.legal-island.ie/news/item/58/cork-soccer-rep-nets-34-000-compensation-for-unfair-dismissal/
    http://www.hayes-solicitors.ie/archive%5Cnews_12_2001_November_9.htm

    OP start a diary noting incidents as this attitude stinks of lining you up for constructive or unfair dismissal.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    Eoin wrote: »
    Is that report implying that employees have more protection in the US than here?

    Yes.

    Nearly twice as much.

    You didn't swallow the IBEC & SFA koolaid, that Ireland was socialist country, hamstrung by regulations - did you?

    There's a lot of mythology in regard to the US. Only a handful of states are fire at will. (It's really funny - the legislation was introduced in some states as "the right to work" bills - the people were so thick they didn't know what they were voting for - like turkeys thinking Christmas sounds like fun - it is...but not for turkeys).

    Some states it can be really tough to sack someone. A friend's company in Maryland, had a technical writer who hadn't produced any work, or even come into work, in 6 months. She claimed she had writers block. They couldn't sack her - the pay out would have been very substantial. They had to go through a load of hoopla to get her to come into the office and work from a desk, and they were looking at another 6 months before they could sack her.

    But you'll have things in some states - like if someone has become too fat to come to work in the office, you have to do all you can for them, like setting them up to work from home, before you can sack them. Did you ever see that episode of the Simpsons, where Homer deliberately puts on weight so he can work from home. It wasn't a joke.

    The E&Y figures bare me out - Labour Flexibility Ireland 6.2 - US 3.3


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    krd wrote: »
    You're really talking semantics.
    I'm talking semantics?
    In Germany if you sack someone without an absolutely rock solid reason, not only will you have to pay compensation, you may be forced to re-instate the person. In Ireland, only in exceptional cases is there a pay out above a months wage.
    Which kind of disproves your assertion that you can be fired at will in Ireland. You have a legal avenue open to you, therefore you cannot just be fired for no reason.

    By your logic, Ireland is a "rape at will" country since the penalty for rape is much lower than it is in other countries.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    krd wrote: »
    Maybe it doesn't make sense to you, because it's a little above your little head. Would I be wasting my breath explaining it to you? I think you're just being facetious.....

    .....In dictatorships like China and Iran, workers have more rights. .....

    .....We're number 1 for being the sh1ttiest place on earth for workers. And number two for being the best country in the world for greedy fat cats. Meow!!!!.....

    .....My friend. Get yourself on the path of the righteous......

    .....Do not be found wanting before Lord.... my friend.

    Tbh, if you worked for me, I'd probably try and fire you too.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    drkpower wrote: »
    Tbh, if you worked for me, I'd probably try and fire you too.

    And if you worked for me - I would definitely fire you........my friend.

    Unlike you. I do not inhabit a world of "probablies". If an egg is bad, it goes in the bin.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    seamus wrote: »
    I'm talking semantics?Which kind of disproves your assertion that you can be fired at will in Ireland. You have a legal avenue open to you, therefore you cannot just be fired for no reason.

    A legal recourse is not good enough in itself. If the penalties are not a disincentive. Most labour court rulings are for less than a months wages. Now, it's a very different situation, if say, it concerns a tightly unionized semi-state. Most other instances, you're looking at 3 weeks wages.
    By your logic, Ireland is a "rape at will" country since the penalty for rape is much lower than it is in other countries.

    I wouldn't be flippant about that. Some countries are more or less, "rape at will" countries. In parts of rural Pakistan, if a woman is raped, there is a strong possibility that woman will be murdered by a male family member to cleanse the family of shame.

    The idea of rape in marriage is relatively new to Ireland. So, you could argue, to a certain extent, under certain conditions, Ireland was in the not too distant past, a rape at will country.

    I am not going to get moral with you. You really should not have dragged that subject into the discussion.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,441 ✭✭✭jhegarty


    krd wrote: »
    Most labour court rulings are for less than a months wages.

    Source ?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    jhegarty wrote: »
    Source ?

    I'm not going to go digging right now. But I believe someone posted the figures to this forum a few months ago.

    Why don't you go find it. Since you're so convinced we live in a bleeding heart socialist republic - you can post the figures and prove me wrong.

    And prove E&Y wrong at the same time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    How about the 2 cases in my links? Facts not good enough to bother reading? Nevermind the fact that it's the EAT not the Labour Court which matters here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,263 ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    krd wrote:
    Yes.

    Nearly twice as much.

    You didn't swallow the IBEC & SFA koolaid, that Ireland was socialist country, hamstrung by regulations - did you?
    ...
    There's a lot of mythology in regard to the US. Only a handful of states are fire at will

    Maybe those handful of States happen to be in the same locations where my company also has offices, but there (and also in Canada where we have an office too), they can and do get rid of people a LOT quicker than they can over here.

    That's not based on "mythology", but on the experience of colleagues of mine across N.A. who I work(ed) with closely.

    Again, I'm talking specifically about the IT industry. Retail or other industries might be different, but my experience has been that across all the companies that I've worked for, the company really needs to be able to back themselves up if they let someone go for under-performing.

    Anyway, I'm still wondering what "out of favour" actually means - it's not an employment specific term that I've heard of.
    drkpower wrote: »
    Tbh, if you worked for me, I'd probably try and fire you too.
    krd wrote: »
    And if you worked for me - I would definitely fire you........my friend.

    Don't get personal please.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    oops


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    Eoin wrote: »
    Maybe those handful of States happen to be in the same locations where my company also has offices, but there (and also in Canada where we have an office too), they can and do get rid of people a LOT quicker than they can over here.

    From what I have witnessed. People can be gotten rid of very quickly here. There are reasons Ernest & Young scored Ireland 6.2 for labour flexibility and the US only got 3.3 - No one got a 10. 10 would be absolute fire at will for whatever reason and no protections against any form of discrimination.
    That's not based on "mythology", but on the experience of colleagues of mine across N.A. who I work(ed) with closely.

    There's a "rugged individualist" myth many Americans like to believe. That the country is fire at will and that there is no social welfare. It varies across states. But some states are very highly unionised. Have lots of labour protection in law. Massachusetts has pay linked social welfare that's more generous than any European country. The states with least social welfare and lowest labour protection are also the poorest states.
    Again, I'm talking specifically about the IT industry. Retail or other industries might be different, but my experience has been that across all the companies that I've worked for, the company really needs to be able to back themselves up if they let someone go for under-performing.

    That's your experience. I know companies in Ireland who don't - they just churn the staff in out of the door.

    There's lots of peculiarities. Like one time, a manager of mine, was sacked (he basically destroyed the company), he wasn't hunted out the door. He was given an office with a phone, and had his computer taken off him. They gave him 4 months to find himself another job.
    Anyway, I'm still wondering what "out of favour" actually means - it's not an employment specific term that I've heard of.

    I'm wondering if you're saying that with your eyelids peeled back and a false look of innocence on your face. We do everything by the book here!!!!

    I'm sure you've heard of favourtism. You know someone getting a promotion not based on their abilities but because they're liked by someone.

    There's also the opposite. People who have nothing wrong with their work or with their abilities, getting passed over for promotion or getting sacked because they've fallen foul of someone.

    Talk to people who work in HR, and they'll tell you that someones "personality" is far more important than their abilities. Succeed in the workplace is more about "soft skills", than "hard skills"

    I've worked in IT too. And I would say there is absolutely no difference. You can have a team of highly skilled and educated engineers being managed by a clueless school drop out someone took a shine to. In fact it's my experience you'll some of the dumbest people you'll find anywhere working in management in IT.

    The more I think about it, the more it's like working with nutty dumb children.

    Falling "out of favour" usually means just that. Someone with a little power has taken a dislike to you.

    And it can be over absolutely nothing. You come in to work one day - you glance at someone, and they interpret it as a slight. You intimidate someone in some way. You don't show the level of deference someone expects. You have something a little different in your lifestyle. You're not bacon and cabbage enough.

    The one thing I hate the most about many people who become managers. They believe it gives them magical powers. They believe they can see inside peoples minds. They believe all their thoughts are magically correct. They believe it makes them magically cleverer than the people who are working beneath them. I really hate the stupid ones, who manage by "gut" feelings.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    You keep banging on about the E&Y figure on labour flexibility as if it's solely about the ability to fire people. It's not. It is about working time, functional, financial (wage) and labour intake flexibility. Hiring and firing only applies partially in the case of labour intake.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,263 ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    krd wrote:
    I'm wondering if you're saying that with your eyelids peeled back and a false look of innocence on your face

    I'm well aware of what the expression means in general terms; you can save the sarcasm. It's pretty self explanatory. I just find it very odd that the OP's employer has specifically used this term to their face, while not sacking or laying the OP off.

    Until the OP gets back (and I don't blame him or her if they don't at this stage), this is just going to go around in the same circle.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    tricky D wrote: »
    How about the 2 cases in my links? Facts not good enough to bother reading? Nevermind the fact that it's the EAT not the Labour Court which matters here.

    I'm surprised at the case of Christopher Varian getting 34k, after being dismissed for not hitting his sales targets. As this is a common reason for dismissing sales staff. His employers didn't follow their own internal grievance procedure. His target was stipulated in his contract and he had failed to reach his targets.

    Typically to fire a sales person for poor performance. A verbal warning, then if their sales performance doesn't improve, a written warning. If they are still not hitting their targets, a dissmisal. There isn't really anything easier to measure as performance indicators than sales.
    I'm surprised the tribunal ruled in Varian's favour.

    On contracts of employment I've typically had, the grievance procedure is outlined - but there is usually a disclaimer at the end saying the employer can chose to disregard the grievance procedure at their discretion. I've interpreted this as meaning the grievance procedure wasn't worth tuppence to me.

    Though - I surprised to see this

    In two recent cases, the Employment Appeals Tribunal has handed down substantial awards - €127,350 and €87,000. The tribunal is penalising employers who fail to adhere to 'fair procedures', even when there is a genuine redundancy situation.




    I'm trying to find the average EAT payout. The two cases you've given - the payouts seem high.

    This from Irish chamber of commerce also shows high payouts http://www.chambers.ie/preview.php?id=889

    I have seen awards that have been very low. I'm just having trouble finding them this minute. I can find the averages for the UK the Irish ones are giving me trouble, I'm sure I've seen them before and they were quite low.

    The high payments look extraordinarily high.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    Eoin wrote: »
    I'm well aware of what the expression means in general terms; you can save the sarcasm. It's pretty self explanatory. I just find it very odd that the OP's employer has specifically used this term to their face, while not sacking or laying the OP off.
    .

    Well. "Odd" isn't unusual. And it might not be as it seems. Whoever told them they're "out of favour" may be trying to help them. Like a friendly "watch your back".

    A few years ago, I was in a job, where my manager wanted to promote me (in fact I had been doing the job for months). There was something weird going on. Previously I had applied for an internal position, and I didn't even get a formal rejection and feedback, like everyone else did. I asked, and then was told they had no record of my application. So, this time around, my manager goes and recommends my for the new position. He then comes back to me and all he says and won't say anymore is "you have very powerful enemies". I know who that enemy is now. A senior manager who didn't like me and did not want to see me promoted. Simple as that. There's more weirdness to it. Really down to the wonky way their head worked.

    Workplace "oddness" isn't uncommon. I think the weirdest people are the ♫ do you want your auld lobby washed down sunshine ♫ brigade.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    tricky D wrote: »
    You keep banging on about the E&Y figure on labour flexibility as if it's solely about the ability to fire people. It's not. It is about working time, functional, financial (wage) and labour intake flexibility.

    That kind of true. But your ability to fire people can control the other factors. Like "take a paycut - or lose your job", "work all weekend for free or lose your job". I have a friend and his employer is giving a huge chunk of work to do from home every weekend - the employer thinks the weekend is his employees work from home time. He's not getting paid extra for the weekend work - and it is a real strain on him. But if he says no, wave bye bye to the job.

    Hiring and firing only applies partially in the case of labour intake.

    That is not true. Firing can also apply to the ability to take advantage of changes in the labour market.

    In Tesco's annual report they like to boast that the vast majority of their workforce are part time. Part time workers under English law have nowhere near the protections full time workers have.

    Labour flexibility purely means how high the deck is stacked in the employers favour.

    If a country had laws tightly curtailing the power of unions or even banning them, that would score a few points higher on the E&Y scale.

    The perfect 10, would be where the employees have no rights - not even the right to health and safety or life. And the employer has no obligations to their employees, no obligation to honour contracts, no obligation to honour any codes of conduct.


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