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employer says im out of favour
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21-04-2011 11:45am#1not let go or sacked just out of favour is this right can this happen can i sign on anyone know of simular situtation0
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What excatly do you mean, 'out of favour'. Are you still working or sitting at home waiting to return to favour0
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Did he give you a P45 and take your keys/access-card/cellphone/whatever off you?
Is he expecting you to turn up on Tuesday (or whenever you'd next regularly be working)?
Do you have regular hours, or are you casual?0 -
Perhaps he just means your skating on thin ice, they will be watching you carefully you you have to work hard to get back in favour.0
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not so happy wrote: »not let go or sacked just out of favour is this right can this happen can i sign on anyone know of simular situtation
Yes. You can be sacked for being "out of favour". As long as you're not being sacked because of your age/race/sex - you can be sacked for no reason at all. Never mind company manuals - they are not binding legal agreements.
Ireland is a fire at will country. There is virtually no employee protection.0 -
Yes. You can be sacked for being "out of favour". As long as you're not being sacked because of your age/race/sex - you can be sacked for no reason at all. Never mind company manuals - they are not binding legal agreements.
Ireland is a fire at will country. There is virtually no employee protection.
Why would you post such a load of bull ?
Once you have been working somewhere for 12 months they need a good reason to fire you. Examples would be gross misconduct , or a history of poor performance.0 -
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Why would you post such a load of bull ?
Once you have been working somewhere for 12 months they need a good reason to fire you. Examples would be gross misconduct , or a history of poor performance.
No you can be fired without reason. Regardless of length of service. Redundancy exactly the same as getting fired. You can be fired/made redundant for no reason.
You just can not get fired for a reason that is considered discriminatory under law. That is age/sex/race.
Ireland is only second to Singapore for labour flexibility.
Grievance processes are not fixed in law. They're completely at the discretion of the employer.
It's like this. The Irish work place is like an Irish primary school. Irish managers usually are uneducated, so they base their management style on a primary school teacher that they remember. Then the line managers run the rest like a school yard. It's just like an Irish primary school. Fall out of favour and you're gone. Work in Ireland is a childrens' game. Played by scummy children.
If someone is genuinely performing badly at their job. They can be sacked within two weeks, or even a few days if you expedite the process. If they're not - and it's just a personality thing, it can be a little harder - harder is not impossible. In the case it's personality usually a campaign of bullying is used.
It's always easy to sack someone. Set them impossible performance goals. And then "discipline" them when they fail to hit the impossible targets. I had a "boss", one time, who like to sack people for lates. He would make "records" of people being late by a minute here and a minute there - very hard to argue with if someone is saying you came in at a two minutes past nine - Who can tell if it's 9.00 or 9.02. Anyway, the lates were bogus. He was just one of these scumbags who liked to have everyone on a permanent written warning. He liked to keep people on their toes. And eventually he gets fired for destroying the company - but that's another story.0 -
Krd, can you post some links to support what you've posted please.
I have some sympathy for your point: a cunning manager can pretty much always find a way to "deal with" an employee they don't like - and not just in Ireland either.
But it's overstated IMHO, and a post full of generalisations without any references isn't welcome or helpful.0 -
Ireland has the least protection for employees in Europe and relies heavily on its public sector and a small, and getting smaller, section of the private sector who have strong union backing. A lot of those Joint Labour agreements are under threat at the moment, in the interest of "labour force flexibility", otherwise known as cheap labour.
At the moment it is probably better to free-lance and work casually on a self-employed basis for a number ( ideally large ) of different clients.
In my present set-up I do a few hours here and there for a number of clients and keep marketing for more. The hours are short. The absence of office politics is very refreshing and the best part of the job is that what I do is unique and cannot be compared to other workers, especially other non-national workers. So far the feedback has been very positive and I have lost only one client to an offer of free service from another friend....you cannot possibly compete with that.....all the rest I have retained.
In many cases the only remaining reason for the 9-5 "permanent" job is that banks will not grant you a mortgage without a "secure" job. As these become scarcer and more people become unemployed, semi-employed, under-employed etc banks will have to think of other ways of measuring clients ability to make repayments as the nature of work changes.
There are no other remaining attractions to a permanent 9-5 job.
You cannot get holidays when you need them and taking your full holiday entitlement is now actively discouraged. Time management, in the sense of leaving work on time after a full days work, is replaced with the odious practice of unpaid overtime and short-notice unpaid weekend work.
VHI and pensions are now minimal and must be paid by the employee, once they were paid in many places by the employer. Most workplaces are now highly competitive and hostile places where everyone is out to cut you down and get their friend/brother/sister/partner etc into your job. The old Irish phrase "holding down a job" now gets new meaning as , if you dont hold it down it will be robbed off you.
It is important to develop a scarce, ideally unique, skill and the ability to sell the skill to a willing market.
It is important to always look for feedback and when given it to acknowledge it and work on it.
It is vitally important to foster new markets and people for your service and be always busy when asked for more business. People will plan and book ahead if they think not to do so will lose you to other clients.
It is vitally important to keep developing and improving the breadth and versatility of your service so that people don't get fed-up of the same old stuff, but for other people, routine is vital.
I am very lucky in that I came from a self-employed background and have a wife whose father was a farmer and did casual work so that the change from fulltime employment is not a big shock as it would be for some people. My father was self-employed and I started off earning my first crust the same way. When I entered "mainstream" employment for the first time the hours, the workpace, the attitude towards "sickies" and the ability to take holidays virtually at will was a revelation. In the intervening 25 years the Irish workplace, even the multinational one, has become tightly controlled, demanding, hostile, bitchy and offers no advantage over self-employment in terms of security, fringe benefits, sick pay etc that once existed. In that time nearly all the benefits of regular employment for most moderately skilled or qualified people have been eaten away. The benefits for self-employed people without some unique or scarce skill is even more limited.
The difficulties of the contemporary Irish workplace are compounded for people who exhibit differences to the mainstream workforce and cannot, through no fault of their own, "fit in" or integrate with that workforce. The school yard analogy of the previous poster, while sounding bitter, is not far off the mark and, for some people, large teams or organisations with manifold rules and politics are complex, difficult and baffling. Unfortunately most bosses will not make allowances for these differences and the affected people quickly become outsiders, to be let go at the first hint of difficulty.0 -
I missed that point in my last reply about Irish Managers being uneducated and find that inaccurate at best, down right incorrect if my experience is anything to go by. Supervisors in my last place of work ( I saw some of their CV's) all had to have level 8 honours degres and post graduate quals in business for the Science/Eng grads.
Unfortunately very few had good people or leadership skills and were not very inspiring but there were one or two exceptions who did their best and were a pleasure to work for. Its great when you can trust your manager.
If by uneducated trd refers to appropriate knowledge of human factors, motivation, job enrichment, leadership, inspiration then, yes, Irish managment are uneducated. Those who hire and select them are not looking for those qualities however and are only interested in short-term survival and the bottom line of immediate, short-term profit.0 -
Sounds like he was giving our OP an 'unofficial' kind of warning?
Do you have the option of going back and asking him if there is anything you're falling down on, in terms of performance?
If nothing else, you can use that meeting to show that you were trying to address a potential performance issue before it escalated.0 -
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Probation can last for a year at most (apart from a few exceptions). After this, you have to "manage someone out" if you want to get rid of them, without making them redundant. This is not a quick or pleasant process for anyone. To say it can be done in a couple of weeks is misinformed. I'm talking about office environments though, others might be different.
I didn't realise that Ireland has the least protection for employees - to be honest, I'd hate to run a business in a country where there's even more protection!0 -
No you can be fired without reason. Regardless of length of service. Redundancy exactly the same as getting fired. You can be fired/made redundant for no reason.
You just can not get fired for a reason that is considered discriminatory under law. That is age/sex/race.
Ireland is only second to Singapore for labour flexibility.
Grievance processes are not fixed in law. They're completely at the discretion of the employer.
It's like this. The Irish work place is like an Irish primary school. Irish managers usually are uneducated, so they base their management style on a primary school teacher that they remember. Then the line managers run the rest like a school yard. It's just like an Irish primary school. Fall out of favour and you're gone. Work in Ireland is a childrens' game. Played by scummy children.
If someone is genuinely performing badly at their job. They can be sacked within two weeks, or even a few days if you expedite the process. If they're not - and it's just a personality thing, it can be a little harder - harder is not impossible. In the case it's personality usually a campaign of bullying is used.
It's always easy to sack someone. Set them impossible performance goals. And then "discipline" them when they fail to hit the impossible targets. I had a "boss", one time, who like to sack people for lates. He would make "records" of people being late by a minute here and a minute there - very hard to argue with if someone is saying you came in at a two minutes past nine - Who can tell if it's 9.00 or 9.02. Anyway, the lates were bogus. He was just one of these scumbags who liked to have everyone on a permanent written warning. He liked to keep people on their toes. And eventually he gets fired for destroying the company - but that's another story.
What your saying makes no sense...if you cannot be fired for age/sex/race than surely you have to be given a reason as to why your being fired, otherwise how would you know its not discrimination??
Also, it is perfectly reasonable for a boss to keep time records...if your work starts at nine than you should arrive before nine to be available to work at nine...not arrive at nine. Even if its just a few mins, if its happening regularly its adds up.
Ireland IMO is by far not the worst with regards to employee rights we just have a lot of spoilt people who do not like getting told off, you are there to work!!
In saying this I am in no way saying that workplace bullying does not exsit in order to fire someone but I do also think that the words "it's not fair" are thrown about a bit too freely at the moment, again IMO.0 -
I missed that point in my last reply about Irish Managers being uneducated and find that inaccurate at best, down right incorrect if my experience is anything to go by. Supervisors in my last place of work ( I saw some of their CV's) all had to have level 8 honours degres and post graduate quals in business for the Science/Eng grads.
Different places will be different. I don't really have a problem with anyone not having a degree. And having a degree, even a pretty high degree, will not guarantee the person's intelligence.
Strange as it may sound. There can be a contempt for educated people. This is not just an Irish thing. There can be instances where all the production staff are educated to degree level, and an ill equip school drop out, is promoted to manage them. A school drop out with a chip on their shoulder. Really, just an ignorant child.Unfortunately very few had good people or leadership skills and were not very inspiring but there were one or two exceptions who did their best and were a pleasure to work for. Its great when you can trust your manager.
I really don't believe in the idea of charismatic leadership as management technique. I don't really believe anyone buys into it - apart from managers who want to think of themselves as Bono. Or individuals on some vague but epic quest. Whatever happened to just getting people to do their work, methodically and well. Why does it have to be Jesus Christ Superstar.
Careful keeping an eye on the essentials, and just getting people to do their job, actually works.
The pyramids were not built by motivational gurus.If by uneducated trd refers to appropriate knowledge of human factors, motivation, job enrichment, leadership, inspiration then, yes, Irish managment are uneducated. Those who hire and select them are not looking for those qualities however and are only interested in short-term survival and the bottom line of immediate, short-term profit.
I have very rarely seen a manager laser sharp focused on the bottom line.
Often they're running around in a fantasy world. The bottom line is their own self interest. Your typical awful manager, will get rid of anyone they think is a threat to them, they'll only promote people they think will not threaten their position, they'll avoid hiring people they think could become a threat to them. You end up with workplaces full of dribbling idiots, who shouldn't even be in employment. Forget about the bottom line, it's all about the managers bottom.
There's an economic theory; creative destruction. That the market takes care of bad management. In that it kills itself off. This is true. But in boom times, the rot can really set itself in, without the negative consequences being readily apparent. The most glaring example in Ireland is the banks. There are many businesses folding that even given the economic conditions should not be. They just have incompetent management, incapable of adjusting.0 -
The difficulties of the contemporary Irish workplace are compounded for people who exhibit differences to the mainstream workforce and cannot, through no fault of their own, "fit in" or integrate with that workforce. The school yard analogy of the previous poster, while sounding bitter, is not far off the mark and, for some people, large teams or organisations with manifold rules and politics are complex, difficult and baffling. Unfortunately most bosses will not make allowances for these differences and the affected people quickly become outsiders, to be let go at the first hint of difficulty.
You can split people many ways. To make a point I'm going to split people into two groups.
One: there are people who can cope with a diverse workplace. Who can cope with other people who do not have the same background and lifestyles as themselves. People who have different tastes even.
Two: there are people who can not cope with people who are different to them. They can't "get on" with them. They think anyone who does not share their lifestyle, aspirations and tastes, is "weird" and upsetting. These people are emotionally and intellectually incapable of handling diversity.
Group number two are the racists, the sexists, the bigots. They're the backward people. The ignorant people. The bad people. The evil people. These people are Hitler's children. In my humble opinion.
Even in Ireland, there are diverse workplaces, and then there are those that are not. If you like a particular kind of bockety Irishness to your working life, the less diverse workplace would be the best fit for you. From many people these workplaces are suffocating. They either fake conformity for the sake of holding onto their job, leave or get sacked for going against the grain.
People like to think of group two as the "average" people, the "normal" people. And it's this kind of "normality" and "averagness" that has destroyed the country.0 -
Ophiopogon wrote: »What your saying makes no sense...if you cannot be fired for age/sex/race than surely you have to be given a reason as to why your being fired, otherwise how would you know its not discrimination??
Maybe it doesn't make sense to you, because it's a little above your little head. Would I be wasting my breath explaining it to you? I think you're just being facetious.Also, it is perfectly reasonable for a boss to keep time records...if your work starts at nine than you should arrive before nine to be available to work at nine...not arrive at nine. Even if its just a few mins, if its happening regularly its adds up.
Yes it does really add up. I once had a disciplinary for being late 30 times in six months. Shocking isn't it. Anyone late that number of times should be sacked. Who could stand for that. I was late 30 times in six months - on average 2 minutes late each time. It all adds up. In six months I was late a total of 1 hour. That one hour nearly destroyed the company. Every penny counts.
The truth is I was never late. I was always at my desk long before the start of work. Only pissy ****, my manager, wouldn't let me log in on my phone before 9. And pissy **** had me up for a disciplinary.
Imagine how hard is was for me not to laugh, when the thick *** in HR said "Late 30 times in six months, an average of two minutes each time. It all adds up and costs the company". That's what she said I nearly offered to put my hand in my pocket and refund them the whole hour. Even the employers PRSI.Ireland IMO is by far not the worst with regards to employee rights we just have a lot of spoilt people who do not like getting told off, you are there to work!!
In Ernst & Youngs 2010 Global Index of 60 countries (Which includes places like Nigeria, Iran, and Algeria) Ireland comes in at number two - just behind Hong Kong (ruled by the communist party of China)
However, E&Y give Ireland a labour market flexibility score of 6.10 (the US have a score of 3.3). Which puts Ireland in pole position for labour flexibilty (which simply means how easy it is to sack people)
Ireland is a fire at will country. Irish workers have the least rights in the world. In dictatorships like China and Iran, workers have more rights.
We're number 1 for being the sh1ttiest place on earth for workers. And number two for being the best country in the world for greedy fat cats. Meow!!!!
If you don't believe me read the report. The world chart is page 28.
E&Y Globalisation index 2010.
I'm sorry. But stop the lights.In saying this I am in no way saying that workplace bullying does not exsit in order to fire someone but I do also think that the words "it's not fair" are thrown about a bit too freely at the moment, again IMO.
Something tells me, your idea of "fair" is "if it feels good, do it!"
Then again you may be a decent person who has just become corrupted. And at heart you're good and worthy of admiration and love.
However, my friend, if you have done wicked things, if your mind has become wicked, it's still not to late to change. Don't get to the end of your life, tormented on your death bed for all the hateful things you've done. You can be redeemed.
My friend. Get yourself on the path of the righteous.
Ezekiel 25:17. "The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."
Do not await the judgment of the Lord. If you are wanting. He has a short patience for arseholes.
Do not be found wanting before Lord.... my friend.0 -
Maybe it doesn't make sense to you, because it's a little above your little head. Would I be wasting my breath explaining it to you? I think you're just being facetious.
I think that he makes a very valid point you cant be fired for age/gender etc.
but whats to say that they arent firing you because of one of those reasons anyway.
maybe i'm reading you point incorrectly but you said that you can be firied for no reason.
if so then why bother having it in law that you cant be fired for your age/gender etc. if the employer dosent need to give a reason.
it really does not make sense0 -
It depends on who you work for if you work for one of the big multinationals you have no rights but if the company is small you might have some rights it depends on who they are.
The labour court is run for by ibec and the public sector unions and is rotten.
You can be sacked at will, your boss just has to make up a any reason he likes that sounds fair.0 -
Well done KRD, that last post went completely over my head...... :eek: words fail me!!!0
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I think that he makes a very valid point you cant be fired for age/gender etc.
but whats to say that they arent firing you because of one of those reasons anyway.
maybe i'm reading you point incorrectly but you said that you can be firied for no reason.
if so then why bother having it in law that you cant be fired for your age/gender etc. if the employer dosent need to give a reason.
it really does not make sense
It's a funny thing. Essentially Ireland is a fire at will country. But, in the case of discrimination the employee does not need absolute proof. All the employee needs is a narrative of the workplace (who got let go, who didn't, who was promoted, who wasn't) . If that narrative can be interpreted as discriminatory on the basis of age/sex/race, the employee has a good case - it could just be coincidental.
It is really funny. You can be fired for no reason. As long as you weren't fired for your age/race/sex. See, it's not alright to dislike someone for their age/race/sex - but it's fine to dislike someone because you think they're a little weird, or they don't like rugby, or don't speak in the same accent as you.
Things have really gotten out of hand. Labour market flexibility, is a good thing, within reason. It goes haywire when people begin to believe it is appropriate and even moral to sack someone on a whim, just because it's perfectly legal for them to do so.0 -
Ophiopogon wrote: »Well done KRD, that last post went completely over my head...... :eek: words fail me!!!
On a serious note. Check out the Ernst and Young report. A lot of what you hear about Ireland being uncompetitive is pretty much propaganda internal to this country. Our economic problems are not down to competitively - they're down to cowboy builders.
We're literally one wrung on the ladder beneath communist China.
How much further can we go? IBEC it seems, would like us to become some kind of capitalist North Korea.0 -
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krd, I'm not going to bother quoting any of your posts.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/fair_grounds_for_dismissal.html
The unfair dismissals act places the onus on the employer to prove that there was a valid reason for an employee's dismissal.
Obviously employers are free to say "you're fired" just because they don't like you. But then this is the same in all countries around the world. There is no country (afaik) where the employer has to "apply" to dismiss a worker or any of that kind of nonsense.
Your contention that Ireland is a "fire at will" country is just 100% incorrect. Once 12 months of employment have been completed, the employer must have a valid reason to dismiss an employee.0 -
krd, I'm not going to bother quoting any of your posts.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/fair_grounds_for_dismissal.html
The unfair dismissals act places the onus on the employer to prove that there was a valid reason for an employee's dismissal.
Obviously employers are free to say "you're fired" just because they don't like you. But then this is the same in all countries around the world. There is no country (afaik) where the employer has to "apply" to dismiss a worker or any of that kind of nonsense.
Your contention that Ireland is a "fire at will" country is just 100% incorrect. Once 12 months of employment have been completed, the employer must have a valid reason to dismiss an employee.
No. I am afraid you are wrong.
You're really talking semantics. Ernest & Young rate Ireland 6.2 for labour market flexibility and the US with 3.3, Germany gets 3.88.
In Germany if you sack someone without an absolutely rock solid reason, not only will you have to pay compensation, you may be forced to re-instate the person. In Ireland, only in exceptional cases is there a pay out above a months wage.
The awards in Ireland for unfair dismissal are so miserable it's usually not worth the bother pursuing them.0 -
Is that report implying that employees have more protection in the US than here?0
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Some awful advice in this thread.
EAT can award up to 2 years salary for an unfair dismissal and reinstatement is also an option.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/unfair_dismissal.html
http://www.legal-island.ie/news/item/58/cork-soccer-rep-nets-34-000-compensation-for-unfair-dismissal/
http://www.hayes-solicitors.ie/archive%5Cnews_12_2001_November_9.htm
OP start a diary noting incidents as this attitude stinks of lining you up for constructive or unfair dismissal.0 -
Is that report implying that employees have more protection in the US than here?
Yes.
Nearly twice as much.
You didn't swallow the IBEC & SFA koolaid, that Ireland was socialist country, hamstrung by regulations - did you?
There's a lot of mythology in regard to the US. Only a handful of states are fire at will. (It's really funny - the legislation was introduced in some states as "the right to work" bills - the people were so thick they didn't know what they were voting for - like turkeys thinking Christmas sounds like fun - it is...but not for turkeys).
Some states it can be really tough to sack someone. A friend's company in Maryland, had a technical writer who hadn't produced any work, or even come into work, in 6 months. She claimed she had writers block. They couldn't sack her - the pay out would have been very substantial. They had to go through a load of hoopla to get her to come into the office and work from a desk, and they were looking at another 6 months before they could sack her.
But you'll have things in some states - like if someone has become too fat to come to work in the office, you have to do all you can for them, like setting them up to work from home, before you can sack them. Did you ever see that episode of the Simpsons, where Homer deliberately puts on weight so he can work from home. It wasn't a joke.
The E&Y figures bare me out - Labour Flexibility Ireland 6.2 - US 3.30 -
I'm talking semantics?You're really talking semantics.
Which kind of disproves your assertion that you can be fired at will in Ireland. You have a legal avenue open to you, therefore you cannot just be fired for no reason.In Germany if you sack someone without an absolutely rock solid reason, not only will you have to pay compensation, you may be forced to re-instate the person. In Ireland, only in exceptional cases is there a pay out above a months wage.
By your logic, Ireland is a "rape at will" country since the penalty for rape is much lower than it is in other countries.0 -
Maybe it doesn't make sense to you, because it's a little above your little head. Would I be wasting my breath explaining it to you? I think you're just being facetious.....
.....In dictatorships like China and Iran, workers have more rights. .....
.....We're number 1 for being the sh1ttiest place on earth for workers. And number two for being the best country in the world for greedy fat cats. Meow!!!!.....
.....My friend. Get yourself on the path of the righteous......
.....Do not be found wanting before Lord.... my friend.
Tbh, if you worked for me, I'd probably try and fire you too.0 -
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I'm talking semantics?Which kind of disproves your assertion that you can be fired at will in Ireland. You have a legal avenue open to you, therefore you cannot just be fired for no reason.
A legal recourse is not good enough in itself. If the penalties are not a disincentive. Most labour court rulings are for less than a months wages. Now, it's a very different situation, if say, it concerns a tightly unionized semi-state. Most other instances, you're looking at 3 weeks wages.By your logic, Ireland is a "rape at will" country since the penalty for rape is much lower than it is in other countries.
I wouldn't be flippant about that. Some countries are more or less, "rape at will" countries. In parts of rural Pakistan, if a woman is raped, there is a strong possibility that woman will be murdered by a male family member to cleanse the family of shame.
The idea of rape in marriage is relatively new to Ireland. So, you could argue, to a certain extent, under certain conditions, Ireland was in the not too distant past, a rape at will country.
I am not going to get moral with you. You really should not have dragged that subject into the discussion.0 -
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