Luas - The Red Line needs to be returned to fare-paying customers...

foret

Two "characters" got onto Luas today without paying for tickets.
They were causing hassle and at the next stop two security men got on
and gave them a talking to. They were not checked for identity or tickets.

They were allowed to stay on..

_____ I am a new user of the Luas : excellent service and frequency.

_______However absolutely ruined by junkies and winos.

________ A dystopian journey worthy of "A Clockwork Orange"

I have read on Boards the recurrent theme of problems on this line and shocked its going on.


Anyway my question is do the rail staff security not check for tickets?
Is that always been policy?
Am I an idiot for paying for a ticket ( still never being asked to show).

Rant over.

Sorry if you have heard it all before...

GizAGoOfYerGee

Did you complain to Veolia?

http://www.luas.ie/customer-care/

Tallaght Saint

I don't think they have authority to check for tickets unless they actually work for Veolia

mgmt

Until numpty Councillors stop zoning methadone clinics in the city centre we will continue to encounter scum on the Luas. Look at what happened in London yesterday, two police officers got stabbed for inquiring about a 2£ fare dodge. Who would want to confront these "people"??

AlekSmart

Anyway my question is do the rail staff security not check for tickets?

No,foret,the security staff have no involvement in the actual Ticket Checking procedure which remains wothin ythe remit of Veolia and/or the RPA.

The entire long running sad saga of the Decline and Fall of Luas Red Line will surely be one of the best-documented such occurences.

Everybody knew,everybody watched,everybody went Hmmmmm... until eventually the Savages prevailed and the thing is handed over to the forces of blackness.....melodramatic...? You bet,but only in keeping with the fast developing ethos of the Luas system.

Of course seasoned Public Transport watchers will have encountered this before....many times...as various partts of Dublin City succumbed to mad wild eyed nutters taking control of the Bus and Dart services.

Foret,are you expecting something to be done about the situation....if so I`d be preparing for a LONG wait !!

patrickbrophy18

There are a number of security flaws with the accessibility of the LUAS in general nevermind, the Green Line. I will list two of them:

• There are no barriers in any of the LUAS stops. On the DART line, you purchase a ticket to gain access to the platform through the kind of barrier I am talking about. This ensures that the journey is paid for or at least does a better job of it than the LUAS thereby making it harder for people to evade the fare.
• The premisis for each LUAS stop is too open-planned as well and as such are not really stations per se.

The above security measures or lack there of makes it too easy for junkies and other unwanted parasites from gaining access to an otherwise civilized transportation unit. These measures could have easily been implemented at the time of construction. A good compromise would be to enclose every platform of the LUAS network with a sheltered environment complete with a ticket validation barrier next to where the tram doors would be. It may slow down the LUAS slightly. However, it would ensure that there is a more secure environment for LUAS commuters.

Something like this springs to mind:

markpb

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

These measures could have easily been implemented at the time of construction. A good compromise would be to enclose every platform of the LUAS network with a sheltered environment complete with a ticket validation barrier next to where the tram doors would be. It may slow down the LUAS slightly.

Most on-street light rail systems are barrier free and have very simple stations - it's one of the attractions of light rail. They're cheap to construct, easy to maintain and are easy to for everyone to access. For unmanned stations, normal turn-styles are useless at stopping fare evasion because people can hop over them. Every Dublin Bus has the bus equivalent to what you suggest and yet certain routes are full of scumbags and fare evasion is rampant. The solution to law breakers on the Luas is not engineering, it's enforcement.

RPA/Veoila operate the Luas but have almost no authority to enforce the law or their own bylaws. The Gardai don't have a dedicated public transport unit like other cities and countries do and until they do, this problem won't go away.

mickydoomsux

Turnstiles would be almost completely useless in relation to the LUAS.

The vast majority of the junkies/scobes have free travel passes.

whydoibother?

Yeah, I've shared trams with a few "characters" as well. I think the problems of alcahol and drug use are beyond the power of Luas staff do deal with. It's more about cleaning up the areas and getting the Gardai involved and giving them sufficient powers. Tbh, if I was a Luas ticket inspector and came accross some of the stuff I've seen as a passenger, I'd run away :eek: rather than try to take charge of the situation. I can't hold them responsible.

CIE

mickydoomsux wrote: »

The vast majority of the junkies/scobes have free travel passes

That has to utterly cease. What kind of sane society subsidises being a drugs addict? That kind of behaviour needs to be punished rather than encouraged and positively sanctioned.

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

These measures could have easily been implemented at the time of construction

Sure, for a few hundred million more or so to upgrade the stations, a few tens of millions or so per year for maintenance of those facilities, and then you still won't have the capacity you need plus you are funneling passengers through a tighter squeeze at the access point. The Luas has been overspent on enough as is, and there is enough duplication of facilities, vehicles and spare parts inventories due to not being built as part of the DART network never mind off-gauge from the rest of the railway system (even the old DUTC system was the same gauge as the heavy rails, and if it were still around today, you could have converted parts of it for tram-train operation).

Cookie_Monster

it's gotten to the point where you'd need at least two gardai to back up ticket inspectors on every tram/ couple of trams for a few weeks. And actually prosecute people rather than just escort them off trams.

as for the free travel passes, they really should be re-issued with smartcard tech built in. You would have to scan it off the machines at stations but it would still be free and can be checked be inspectors. and make it compatible across BE, DB, Luas and IE.

AlekSmart

As for the free travel passes, they really should be re-issued with smartcard tech built in. You would have to scan it off the machines at stations but it would still be free and can be checked be inspectors. and make it compatible across BE, DB, Luas and IE.

Good news Cookie a mhic......We have a multi-agency expert group beavering away as we speak to put protocols in place to avchieve just this result.....probably c.2020 before it`s fully implimented....weather permitting.

Remember too Cookie,that up until 2009 the DSP/DSW did not participate in the "Integrated Ticketing Implimentation Group" in spite of being the single largest grouping of Public Transport users.....Progress in Ireland...like peace,comes dropping slowly... :mad:

Aard

CIE wrote: »

What kind of sane society subsidises being a drugs addict?

In Switzerland, it's possible to get heroin on prescription if you're an addict. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7757050.stm



More on-topic:
Abolish "Free-travel" passes, and bring in "Discount-travel" passes. All bus/luas trips cost 50c, for example. If they have to pay even a nominal sum to ride the bus/luas, it will stop a certain number of evaders. How many of their trips are "necessary"? Not that many I'd say, and with a 50c fare to pay, it might just make them stick to fewer journeys.

CIE

Aard wrote: »

In Switzerland, it's possible to get heroin on prescription if you're an addict. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7757050.stm

Debatable whether or not that constitutes a sane society. However, it does sort out those that actually want to live a normal life and prefer to merely be "maintenance" types rather than permanent wards of the state.

Aard wrote: »

More on-topic:
Abolish "Free-travel" passes, and bring in "Discount-travel" passes. All bus/luas trips cost 50c, for example. If they have to pay even a nominal sum to ride the bus/luas, it will stop a certain number of evaders. How many of their trips are "necessary"? Not that many I'd say, and with a 50c fare to pay, it might just make them stick to fewer journeys.

One never knows. The addiction to entitlements can be just as hard to break as that to heroin, and leads to the same kind of behaviour affectations when both abused and forced to withdraw.

TheChrisD

AlekSmart wrote: »

Good news Cookie a mhic......We have a multi-agency expert group beavering away as we speak to put protocols in place to avchieve just this result.....probably c.2020 before it`s fully implimented....weather permitting.

Oh fun, another 10 years where I can continue to dread having my ticket checked on the train on those days when Dunboyne/Docklands/Drumcondra/wherever station's ticket office isn't open and I feel like I'll get ****ed over like everyone else who seems to post in this forum...

That is until the one day that happens and I'm given the all clear because of that.
Sake why can't they just make the ticket machines accept the travel passes in the meantime.

Fratton Fred

It always makes me laugh when a couple of coppers get in at the four courts, there are always a handful of people who suddenly decide to get off.

foggy_lad

Aard wrote: »

Abolish "Free-travel" passes, and bring in "Discount-travel" passes. All bus/luas trips cost 50c, for example. If they have to pay even a nominal sum to ride the bus/luas, it will stop a certain number of evaders. How many of their trips are "necessary"? Not that many I'd say, and with a 50c fare to pay, it might just make them stick to fewer journeys.

These people are not "evaders"! They are travelling legally and perfectly legitimately but some may be a nuisance on the busses trams and trains.

Most addicts have free travel from long before they became adicts due to underlying mental illnesses

Nevermind abolishing the free travel as this will not deter the scumbag element, many of who are entitled to free travel. It will just see them riding trams trains etc without paying any fares and they will be allowed do so by staff who are quite correctly fearful of challenging these fare evaders!

Victor

CIE wrote: »

That has to utterly cease. What kind of sane society subsidises being a drugs addict?

I'm not sure how the scheme is structured for drug users, but its better than giving them cash that they will only spend on drugs.

Aard

foggy_lad wrote: »

These people are not "evaders"! They are travelling legally and perfectly legitimately but some may be a nuisance on the busses trams and trains.

Most addicts have free travel from long before they became adicts due to underlying mental illnesses

Nevermind abolishing the free travel as this will not deter the scumbag element, many of who are entitled to free travel. It will just see them riding trams trains etc without paying any fares and they will be allowed do so by staff who are quite correctly fearful of challenging these fare evaders!

You're right, "fare evaders" was the wrong term to use.


About charging those with such passes: I don't think anybody should be entitled to free travel. In other countries, even the elderly have to pay a little to use public transport. I'd be in favour of getting rid of it, or at least restricting the use of the free-travel pass to after 10am to avoid adding unnecessary trips to the rush-hour crush. </ot>

foggy_lad

Aard wrote: »

You're right, "fare evaders" was the wrong term to use.


About charging those with such passes: I don't think anybody should be entitled to free travel. In other countries, even the elderly have to pay a little to use public transport. I'd be in favour of getting rid of it, or at least restricting the use of the free-travel pass to after 10am to avoid adding unnecessary trips to the rush-hour crush. </ot>

How would you stop the hordes of nasty snarling druggies from getting on trams and busses and trains with their cans bottles and entitlement attitude?

Last year i was on a Rosslare-Dublin train when 3-4 scumbags got on and immediately started abusing other elderly passengers and trying to start fights with people on the train, they were being watched all day by irish rail staff who can do nothing as they are in as much if not more danger than the travelling public from these people who were not even junkies just carreer criminals.

How would you as a ticket inspector approach 4 unruly drunk guys who were looking for fights/trouble and get them to leave the train? These scumbags are going to get on the train regardless of having a pass or not.

CiaranC

Ive been using the red line twice a day five times a week, including weekends, between Tallaght and James St for the last six months, at various time of the day (I work shift) and havent seen any problems.

Are the issues more in the city centre?

Aard

@foggy lad:
I guess the answer then is to call the cops. Not sure exactly how it would be funded (however, see my above posts for additional revenue streams! :P), but I'm sure some "excess" Gardaí in the force could be transferred to a Public Transport Police.

loyatemu

they're bringing in a nominal charge for prescriptions for medical card holders - if they can do that they can do the same for "free-travel" recipients (it would be less contentious).

A lot of the anti-social elements on the Red line are just travelling up and down between Busaras and Heuston, because they can, & because its easier than walking (particularly if you have difficulty walking in a straight line).

Obviously you would need enforcement as well.

BrianD

I'm probably going to risk the wrath of many here. Is there any benefit of a free travel scheme for society at all? Should we do away it?

mikemac

People often don't respect what they get for free.

Like the medical card, people with passes should pay something. Even a nominal fee like 50c.
I'm thinking more of city buses then the Luas here though

CIE

foggy_lad wrote: »

How would you stop the hordes of nasty snarling druggies from getting on trams and busses and trains with their cans bottles and entitlement attitude?

Last year i was on a Rosslare-Dublin train when 3-4 scumbags got on and immediately started abusing other elderly passengers and trying to start fights with people on the train, they were being watched all day by irish rail staff who can do nothing as they are in as much if not more danger than the travelling public from these people who were not even junkies just carreer criminals.

How would you as a ticket inspector approach 4 unruly drunk guys who were looking for fights/trouble and get them to leave the train? These scumbags are going to get on the train regardless of having a pass or not.

Sounds to me like the creation of a crisis that would lead to people demanding strong-arm tactics to solve, i.e. an imposition of solution from the top.

Be glad you're not living in the fifth of Detroit that the current mayor just withdrew basic services from (police especially). Twenty percent of that city now lives in total anarchy, at the mercy of street gangs and homeless addicts. What's the solution? Martial law?

BenShermin

BrianD wrote: »

I'm probably going to risk the wrath of many here. Is there any benefit of a free travel scheme for society at all? Should we do away it?

I'd agree with you to an extent.

For a start I'd completely abolish all free travel to anyone under 66, it's too much of an expense to a country that's in serious debt. I frankly don't care about any of the sob stories if this happened, the truth being I've seen too many people with disability passes in work uniform and on the other side far too many people with the same passes using public transport as shooting galleries and Amsterdam like coffee shops. I don't believe there is any benifit to society by giving free transport to anyone under 66. If you can work you can afford the cheap commuting fares and if your a drug abuser you don't deserve it, end of.

As for the over 65s, do they really need free travel across the intercity network of buses and trains or do they just need free travel to get to the local shopping district for bread and milk? I'd introduce a free pass to the over 65s valid in the juristriction in which they reside, eg a Dublin resident would get free travel on all modes of transport in the Dublin short hop area. Like Britain a seniors railcard (bus card) could be introduced offering a discount off intercity train and bus travel.

It's harsh, but it would see the subsidy come down and less debt for the government and maybe in time less income tax for hard pressed workers.

Cookie_Monster

CIE wrote: »

Be glad you're not living in the fifth of Detroit that the current mayor just withdrew basic services from (police especially). Twenty percent of that city now lives in total anarchy, at the mercy of street gangs and homeless addicts. What's the solution? Martial law?

Robocop, clearly.

ttenneb

The problem exists because for far too long minor public misdemeanours have been tolerated by the authorities. I've had personal experience of complaining to Dublin Bus on countless occasions about smoking on buses. I have copies of letters going back more than a decade and still, the problem persists. No one seemed to take the smoking ban seriously and consequently the morons who defied the ban continued unchallenged.

Bit by bit this behaviour has been allowed to flourish and extends to loutish thuggery on the streets, buses and trains. Zero tolerance was how the problems in New York were tackled. We should have introduced it here long ago. It's probably too late.

macman2010

Whetever about these scummers getting on for free, iv seen plenty of them using the luas as a place to pickpocket the farepaying public.

TheChrisD

feelingstressed wrote: »

Like the medical card, people with passes should pay something. Even a nominal fee like 50c.
I'm thinking more of city buses then the Luas here though

Probably a better system would be to do similar to the Drug Payment Scheme and have use pass holders pay a certain amount each month for an all-in-one ticket for our travel on whatever transport network we need to use. Say €15-€20 a month or something.

Of course this is all assuming that we will ever get integrated ticketing in this country :pac:

Lapin

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

These measures could have easily been implemented at the time of construction. A good compromise would be to enclose every platform of the LUAS network with a sheltered environment complete with a ticket validation barrier next to where the tram doors would be. It may slow down the LUAS slightly. However, it would ensure that there is a more secure environment for LUAS commuters.

Something like this springs to mind:

Christ, they're ugly yokes. And apart from the fact that they would never get planning permission at stops like Abbey and Jervis due to lack of space and obstructing business premises, they would also provide an ideal warm sheltered location for junkies to gather.

AlekSmart

Christ, they're ugly yokes. And apart from the fact that they would never get planning permission at stops like Abbey and Jervis due to lack of space and obstructing business premises, they would also provide an ideal warm sheltered location for junkies to gather.

Hmmm Lapin,perhaps...mind you the Tower of Light managed to get Planning Permission and there`s very little in the way of shelter offered by it.

As for the bit of oul shelter for the junkies,DCC are apparently working on that problem with a Planning Application already in for an Off-Licence in the Old CIE Tours Premises adjacent to the Abbey Platform...Happy Daze I guess....:D

Seanachai

foggy_lad wrote: »

How would you stop the hordes of nasty snarling druggies from getting on trams and busses and trains with their cans bottles and entitlement attitude?

Last year i was on a Rosslare-Dublin train when 3-4 scumbags got on and immediately started abusing other elderly passengers and trying to start fights with people on the train, they were being watched all day by irish rail staff who can do nothing as they are in as much if not more danger than the travelling public from these people who were not even junkies just carreer criminals.

How would you as a ticket inspector approach 4 unruly drunk guys who were looking for fights/trouble and get them to leave the train? These scumbags are going to get on the train regardless of having a pass or not.

foggy_lad , I've witnessed and been in similar situations on buses and the Luas before. I havent used the Luas in months now and don't intend on using it again in the future if at all possible. When I did use it earlier this year I didn't mind the junkies so much , they don't pose much of a threat as they're usually in a weakened condition. It's more of an annoyance thing with the way they speak and carry on. It's the packs of fellas and girls looking for hassle that I'd have more of a problem with.

Irish society has become too tolerant of antisocial behaviour , it's the permissiveness that exists that allows scumbags to think that they can get in decent peoples faces with very little consequences. If the security intervene and hurt one of them they'll more than likely be sued. 'My Jimmy is a good lad and that thug man handled him , €2000 kaaching!! , etc , etc!!". This is where the scumbag gets his swagger from , he knows that society gives him a little leeway , he's tested the boundaries since he was pegging stones at the bus in his estate.

There needs to be a culture reversal whereby the scumbags come to learn that if you cross the line and accost other people going about their business there will be consequences. First of all you need a deterrent , big tough fellas and women creating a strong visual presence making people who do feel a little vulnerable that bit safer. Of course you have to vet them heavily if you're using private security to make sure they're not thugs themselves. I can handle myself pretty well if it did come to an assault situation but I have seen people genuinely frightened esp on the Luas when packs of drunks\thugs get on and start causing hassle. Nobody should have to go through that and the tolerance level for antisocial behaviour should be completely lowered.

AlekSmart

Irish society has become too tolerant of antisocial behaviour , it's the permissiveness that exists that allows scumbags to think that they can get in decent peoples faces with very little consequences. If the security intervene and hurt one of them they'll more than likely be sued. 'My Jimmy is a good lad and that thug man handled him , €2000 kaaching!! , etc , etc!!". This is where the scumbag gets his swagger from , he knows that society gives him a little leeway , he's tested the boundaries since he was pegging stones at the bus in his estate.

Seanachai: ABSOLUTELY SPOT-ON.

I have little doubt but our various agencies-of-state would pay several million euro to a host of multi-agency NGA`s to research and compile a report whic would reach the same conclusions as yourself,but express it over several closely typed volumes.

You`ve done it for free,and therefore you must be WRONG

Those at the sharp end know how it`s now well into a second and even third generation in some areas.
There is absolutely no chance of the softly-softly approach working anymore,but,serious resources will be frittered away in an attempt to placate the savages responsible for much of the problem.

The recent Prime-Time Investigates programme directed a gaze toward at least a sector of those folk who happily and publicly told the Nation they did`nt give a stuff about other people,the law or it`s supposed punishments.

The State`s response to your Stone-Peggers is to provide them with more ammunition,in case they cut-up-rough !!!! :eek:

Seanachai

I know that there's already the black clad fellas on the Luas from time to time but if it's still the same as when I was using it there needs to be more of a presence. I don't know if Gardai working alongside these guys would help as I've seen them getting lip too. Would be worth a try though. I think it's the type of person that makes a difference , putting rookies who are pretty green on isn't going to phase the scumbags. You would need a few of those stern looking fellas you see jumping out of unmarked mondeos maybe. I'd be for tougher sentencing for antisocial behaviour too. But then you've got the overcrowding in the prisons issue :rolleyes:. We really need to take action on this as a country soon.

I've spoken to people older than me and asked them was there much antisocial behaviour around when they were younger. They said there was a certain amount and you'd have your dodgy sorts but people didn't have as much of a tolerance for them. If somebody was accosted in public people would intervene as there was a sense of social solidarity. Nowadays people are very reluctant to intervene and with good reason sometimes. I'd hate to see a culture of acceptance for this behaviour build up.Things can be hard enough at the moment without having to put up with hassle and aggro when you're traveling about.

mickydoomsux

The people you are talking about are the so called 'vunerable' in our society. We all started to feel guilty during the Celtic Tiger that a certain sector of the population were still scumbags so we decided the best way to help them was to give the free money, housing and travel whilst turning a blind eye to their behaviour. Basically we gave them money to go away so we don't have to deal with them.

Also if they show up in court for their twentieth public order/shoplifting/assault charge we let the go because "ah shure aren't they from a disadvantaged area". The area is 'disadvantaged' because these scobes live there.

We need a tougher attitude toward these people at this stage. Stop their welfare if they accrue convictions. Kick them out of their council houses if they can't obey the law. If you can't live by the rules of society then why should you be able to put you hand in socities till and basically get paid by the state to be a worthless scumbag?

HappyCrackHead

The outcome of giving these scum the free ride is that if a regular joe paying customer/tax payer will be come down on like a tonne of bricks in the event of a minor infringement. How many times have you seen someone going through their bag or wallet looking for their ticket, freaking out that they can't find it, and being villified and treated like a criminal by the ticket inspector??

It is the worst thing about Irish society, if you habitually flaunt the law, either a junkie or a banker you'll get a free ride. Its decent working class or middle class people who get F'd!

-Chris-

Please don't bump old threads, if you'd like to have a discussion on this, please start a new thread.