Why can't we adopt a firmer policy on non-nationals?

Oh_Noes

I'm by means xenophobe, racist, ethnocentric or otherwise. In better times I would really encourage everyone to come here because I think it has benefited us greatly to have other influences add multiculturalism to our society.

I have tut-tutted at people in the past for complaining about foreigners here but I'm seeing so much of it lately that I'm starting to agree with a lot of it.

Yes I know the majority of people claiming benefits are Irish, but I constantly see my Polish and Lithuanian neighbors getting drunk on dole day, really disgracefully drunk (they have young children). I'm on the dole too and I really can't afford to get drunk any day of the week to enjoy a healthy standard of living, and I have no kids.

With the government constantly making cuts in every area, in a relatively conservative country, our immigration laws are some of the most liberal in Europe. This is putting enormous pressure on our public pocket, in my best estimate. If anyone has figures and statistics on the ratio of non-nationals in Ireland that are productive rather than deductive I'd be very appreciative to see them.

This was fair enough when the country was doing well, to invite everyone into the party; but we're really in the ditch at the moment, it frustrates me to see Irish people's money being spent on people that weren't here a few years ago, and won't be here in a few years.

I would like to see some pro-Ireland policies being put into place, not out of a motivation for greed, but out of a need to stop our own population leaving to find work elsewhere.

In summary, this is the time to be realistic. We need to stop chancers overcharging us for everything in shops, we need to stop relying on the "service industry", and well as putting on miniskirts for multinational investors and focus on our own indigenous industrial potential . I think the most progressive and productive move we could make would be to review the status of our non-national residents.

southsiderosie

Oh_Noes wrote: »

Yes I know the majority of people claiming benefits are Irish, but I constantly see my Polish and Lithuanian neighbors getting drunk on dole day, really disgracefully drunk (they have young children). I'm on the dole too and I really can't afford to get drunk any day of the week to enjoy a healthy standard of living, and I have no kids.

So getting drunk is a foreign issue? In Ireland? Really?

Oh_Noes wrote: »

With the government constantly making cuts in every area, in a relatively conservative country, our immigration laws are some of the most liberal in Europe. This is putting enormous pressure on our public pocket, in my best estimate. If anyone has figures and statistics on the ratio of non-nationals in Ireland that are productive rather than deductive I'd be very appreciative to see them.

Immigration laws in relation to whom? Ireland is one of the strictest countries in Western Europe when it comes to asylum, with a very low acceptance rate. And all EU countries will have to completely open their labor markets to EU 15-25 countries by next year.

Productive in what sense? You can't just move to Ireland and sign onto the dole; you have to have two years residency, and most non-nationals would have to work during that time since they would not be eligible for state assistance. Non-EU nationals that are not asylum seekers and who do not have a work visa have to have evidence that they have outside income and health insurance, i.e. evidence that they will not make any claims for public assistance from the state.

Oh_Noes wrote: »

This was fair enough when the country was doing well, to invite everyone into the party; but we're really in the ditch at the moment, it frustrates me to see Irish people's money being spent on people that weren't here a few years ago, and won't be here in a few years.

How do you know they won't be around? People are not going back in droves, despite what politicians are saying. And dole payments are not strictly "Irish people's money", they come from taxpayer money. And there are a hell of a lot of foreign taxpayers in Ireland. If you paid into the system, you can take out of the system. I'd say the bigger problem with welfare in Ireland is that it is a benefits for life system, rather than a benefits for hard times program - and that has nothing to do with foreigners.

Oh_Noes wrote: »

I would like to see some pro-Ireland policies being put into place, not out of a motivation for greed, but out of a need to stop our own population leaving to find work elsewhere.

Like what?

Oh_Noes wrote: »

In summary, this is the time to be realistic. We need to stop chancers overcharging us for everything in shops, we need to stop relying on the "service industry", and well as putting on miniskirts for multinational investors and focus on our own indigenous industrial potential . I think the most progressive and productive move we could make would be to review the status of our non-national residents.

What does getting overcharged have to do with non-nationals? Budget chains like Aldi and Lidl are in Ireland today precisely because Eastern Europeans refused to pay the kinds of ridiculous prices that the Irish were willing to pay in the boom years. Foreigners are FAR more price-conscious than Irish consumers.

Also, please point to one economy in Western Europe besides Germany where the service sector is not the most important industry.

What indigenous industrial potential? To do what? Based on what?

What do non-nationals have to do with anything in the above paragraph? (other than helping spur competition in grocery shopping?)

Einhard

Oh_Noes wrote: »

I'm by means xenophobe, racist, ethnocentric or otherwise.

Could see that from your post to be honest.

The Poles and most other Eastern Europeans are entitled to live and work here. Just as you are allowed do in France, Spain or, indeed, Poland.

Oh_Noes

Einhard wrote: »

Could see that from your post to be honest.

The Poles and most other Eastern Europeans are entitled to live and work here. Just as you are allowed do in France, Spain or, indeed, Poland.

Entitled on what basis?

Why "most" other Eastern Europeans and not all?

scudzilla

I think many people feel this way, but are afraid to say anything as the do-gooder/anti-racist brigade will be down there throats

Einhard

scudzilla wrote: »

I think many people feel this way, but are afraid to say anything as the do-gooder/anti-racist brigade will be down there throats

What's wrong with being anti-racist exactly?

scudzilla

Einhard wrote: »

What's wrong with being anti-racist exactly?

Nothing at all, never said there was so please don't insinuate that i have

Einhard

Einhard wrote: »

What's wrong with being anti-racist exactly?

scudzilla wrote: »

Nothing at all, never said there was so please don't insinuate that i have

scudzilla wrote: »

I think many people feel this way, but are afraid to say anything as the do-gooder/anti-racist brigade will be down there throats

Frank Grimes

Oh_Noes wrote: »

Entitled on what basis?

Why "most" other Eastern Europeans and not all?

Are you aware of the European Union?

Lloyd Xmas

Give the lad a break...
He's made a genuine comment on how he sees the situation.
Non-Irish getting tanked up on dole money while he struggles on the same amount. Its a fair point ffs.

Let's flip the coin and say he was resident in Poland, he probably wouldn't have the cheek to display such behaviour in full view of indiginous neighbours who are struggling, if he's making a post like this.
There always clowns on this forum who'll take a sentance from a lads peice and hijack it to the hilt, accusing them of racism blah blah.

If we're going to bring people into the country, lets do it right.
Invite those who have a skill, Australian / NZ style.
What's the point in bringing in any oul Joe just because the wages are higher here. Unrestricted EU movement is a foolish move, always was, always will be.

There has to be a valid reason for bringing people here. What's the use in having people out of work, who pass the time pi$$ing welfare money down the drain. Cop onto yourselves, this is utter stupidity.
If we have a skills shortage in certain areas, then its a worthwhile exercise. If not, its a waste of time and money.

No doubt, this post will be hijacked to the hilt with the usual sh*te from the PC brigade.

It's always the poorest areas that receive the greatest number of economic migrants, but funnily enough, it's always the sh*theads in wealthier areas that pour scorn on poorer folk who don't like it all that much.

Arnold Layne

Before we start looking at the non-nationals from Europe, I would suggest that the issue of the our other "non-national" group be addressed first. Our own little "ethnic minority", i.e. Travelling Community, get all the benefits from Welfare and they are the ones that are pissing it up against the wall nearly every night of the week. They are the ones that have JSA, Medical Cards, Reant & Fuel Allowances amongst other benefits and have never contributed to the State. They cost the State not just in Welfare payments but also in the cost of using the Gardai to stop the'r childish feuding which has, more often than not, turned violent.

At least the European Immigrants have paid taxes during their time in full employment here. These immigrants have to be in the country 2 years before they can claim Social Welfare, it is one of the clauses introduced when Ireland allowed Eastern Europeans to work and reside in the country.

Macha

Lloyd Xmas wrote: »

Give the lad a break...
He's made a genuine comment on how he sees the situation.
Non-Irish getting tanked up on dole money while he struggles on the same amount. Its a fair point ffs.

What do you mean by "fair point"? That his story is true? It might well be but that doesn't mean we should base our entire immigration policy around one person's grievances.

Lloyd Xmas wrote: »

Let's flip the coin and say he was resident in Poland, he probably wouldn't have the cheek to display such behaviour in full view of indiginous neighbours who are struggling, if he's making a post like this.
There always clowns on this forum who'll take a sentance from a lads peice and hijack it to the hilt, accusing them of racism blah blah.

There's always clowns on this forum who will take a personal anecdote and extrapolate it out inaccurately to justify their own little slice of racism (and someone usually jumps to their defense accusing those who point this out of being part of the "PC brigade")

Lloyd Xmas wrote: »

If we're going to bring people into the country, lets do it right.
Invite those who have a skill, Australian / NZ style.
What's the point in bringing in any oul Joe just because the wages are higher here. Unrestricted EU movement is a foolish move, always was, always will be.

The point of free movement within the EU is to facilitate closer ties between member states and reduce efficiencies that trade barriers or protectionism tend to create. During the Celtic Tiger, Ireland simply did not have enough citizens to fill the jobs our economy was creating and we needed immigration to fill that gap - especially in the areas that we felt were too good for us.

Similarly, emigration has proven an important way of releasing pressure in Ireland when employment has dropped. The Irish have a strong history of emigrating with the ESRI estimating that 5,000 are seeking to emigrate every month. Imagine if they had no where to go & had to stay here. And do you think all of those people are highly skilled? I'd say a lot of them are from the construction industry.

Lloyd Xmas wrote: »

It's always the poorest areas that receive the greatest number of economic migrants, but funnily enough, it's always the sh*theads in wealthier areas that pour scorn on poorer folk who don't like it all that much.

Eh, I'm unemployed at the moment but in the past I have enjoyed working in other countries and I don't use my personal situation to rationalize xenophobic tendencies. You might want to stop with the unfounded generalisations - it's generally what is wrong with this thread.

Tordelback

Oh_Noes wrote: »

Yes I know the majority of people claiming benefits are Irish, but I constantly see my Polish and Lithuanian neighbors getting drunk on dole day, really disgracefully drunk (they have young children). I'm on the dole too and I really can't afford to get drunk any day of the week to enjoy a healthy standard of living, and I have no kids.

I'll bite. Are you under the impression that other EU nationals get more dole than people born in this country? If not, then they're able to afford to get disgracefully drunk because they're doing nixers or going short in other areas. Some people are drunken a****les, I doubt whether they were born in Poland, Lithuania or Ireland has much to do with it.

scudzilla

Einhard wrote: »

And where exactly have i said there's something wrong with being anti-racist? Please do enlighten me, i can see you haven't really got a clue

Einhard

scudzilla wrote: »

I think many people feel this way, but are afraid to say anything as the do-gooder/anti-racist brigade will be down there throats

I'm not going to get into a tit for tat, back and forth argument on this, but the negative connations implied by the phrase "do-gooder/anti-racist brigade" are pretty obvious. You mightn't have meant it to come out that way, but it did.

PapaQuebec

Lloyd Xmas wrote: »

Give the lad a break...
He's made a genuine comment on how he sees the situation.
Non-Irish getting tanked up on dole money while he struggles on the same amount. Its a fair point ffs.

Let's flip the coin and say he was resident in Poland, he probably wouldn't have the cheek to display such behaviour in full view of indiginous neighbours who are struggling, if he's making a post like this.
There always clowns on this forum who'll take a sentance from a lads peice and hijack it to the hilt, accusing them of racism blah blah.

If we're going to bring people into the country, lets do it right.
Invite those who have a skill, Australian / NZ style.
What's the point in bringing in any oul Joe just because the wages are higher here. Unrestricted EU movement is a foolish move, always was, always will be.

There has to be a valid reason for bringing people here. What's the use in having people out of work, who pass the time pi$$ing welfare money down the drain. Cop onto yourselves, this is utter stupidity.
If we have a skills shortage in certain areas, then its a worthwhile exercise. If not, its a waste of time and money.

No doubt, this post will be hijacked to the hilt with the usual sh*te from the PC brigade.

It's always the poorest areas that receive the greatest number of economic migrants, but funnily enough, it's always the sh*theads in wealthier areas that pour scorn on poorer folk who don't like it all that much.

Good post!!

Nodin

Oh_Noes wrote: »

I'm by means xenophobe, racist, ethnocentric or otherwise. In better times I would really encourage everyone to come here because I think it has benefited us greatly to have other influences add multiculturalism to our society.

I have tut-tutted at people in the past for complaining about foreigners here but I'm seeing so much of it lately that I'm starting to agree with a lot of it.

Yes I know the majority of people claiming benefits are Irish, but I constantly see my Polish and Lithuanian neighbors getting drunk on dole day, really disgracefully drunk (they have young children). I'm on the dole too and I really can't afford to get drunk any day of the week to enjoy a healthy standard of living, and I have no kids.

...............

An Irishman who can't budget for drunkeness? You need to be deported forthwith.

johnnyskeleton

Lloyd Xmas wrote: »

What's the point in bringing in any oul Joe just because the wages are higher here. Unrestricted EU movement is a foolish move, always was, always will be.

There has to be a valid reason for bringing people here.

The reason for unrestricted movement throughout Europe is to create a stong economic block where people are free to work and ply their trade in any other european country.

Lloyd Xmas wrote: »

What's the use in having people out of work, who pass the time pi$$ing welfare money down the drain.

The problem there is that the welfare is too generous, not that there are too many unemployed non nationals here. If they are entitled to claim welfare then they should claim it, IMO. It's a bit rich to say we should tolerate large amounts of welfare going to the Irish, but not to other EU nationals (who may have worked here for years).

opo

Einhard wrote: »

What's wrong with being anti-racist exactly?

Just out of curiousity.....

For you, what does being "anti-racist" mean in a tangible sense?

goose2005

Oh_Noes wrote: »

Entitled on what basis?

Why "most" other Eastern Europeans and not all?

Entitled under the Nice Treaty. Romanians and Bulgarians are restricted.

ei.sdraob

southsiderosie wrote: »

So getting drunk is a foreign issue? In Ireland? Really?

Those bloody foreigners coming here and drinking our drink!

that made me laugh

look at it this way there are keeping people employed at our breweries

southsiderosie

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Those bloody foreigners coming here and drinking our drink!

that made me laugh

look at it this way there are keeping people employed at our breweries

I was talking to a shopkeeper, and he said one way they knew that immigration was down was that they were putting in fewer orders for imported vodka and Czech beer. Although this could have more to do with the recession, not people leaving en masse...

saol alainn

Oh_Noes wrote: »

............
I think the most progressive and productive move we could make would be to review the status of our non-national residents.

Imagine this. An irishman has been living/working in an EU state for the past six/ten/twelve years. Bought a house, paying the mortgage, paying taxes, raising a family, etc. Suddenly he's lost his job. And the natives say "but why should he receive any benefits? Send him and his family home or cut off his benefits." Conveniently forgetting that the (insert EU member state) is his home, not Ireland.

Tordelback

saol alainn wrote: »

And the natives say "but why should he receive any benefits? Send him and his family home or cut off his benefits."

Well said. Then imagine that the country in question was Britain, and think about the likely reaction. Would we possibly be using the word 'racist'?

blue_steel

Einhard wrote: »

Could see that from your post to be honest.

The Poles and most other Eastern Europeans are entitled to live and work here. Just as you are allowed do in France, Spain or, indeed, Poland.

I was under the impression the the 2004 accession citizens could only work freely in a handful of countries (including here and the UK)? We don't let Bulgarians or Romanians work here so why do we let Poles? The answer is obvious but I'd love to hear the PC version.
I had no problem with EU nationals working here but we should not be supporting welfare holidays when vital services are being cut.
Try signing on in Munich and see how far you get. Forms must be filled out from four different government depts and in German naturally. Here we've trained people to speak Polish to make the experience "less stressful" for them. Ludicrous.

Nodin

How can you have a "welfare" holiday if you have to work 2 years (I think) before being applicable for a limited period benefit......?

saol alainn

blue_steel wrote: »

I was under the impression the the 2004 accession citizens could only work freely in a handful of countries (including here and the UK)? We don't let Bulgarians or Romanians work here so why do we let Poles? The answer is obvious but I'd love to hear the PC version.

Your impression is correct. The 2004 accession citizens, from 8 eastern european countries, can work freely in a few countries, including in Ireland. In others, there's a transition period until 2011. Poland joined in 2004. Hence the reason why they're at liberty to look for work, without a permit, while the Bulgarians and Romanians still need a work permit. The latter two joined in 2007 and will gain complete freedom of movement in 2014. They can still work here, you're mistaken in thinking that they cannot. In fact, they should have preference before any non-EU citizen, as long as they are equally qualified for the job. The citizens of the 2 southern european countries that joined the EU in 2004 - Malta and Cyprus - can work freely in any EU country, since joining.

spurious

For those that might know...

If (for argument's sake) I am a Ghanaian carpenter who has saved some money and would like to set up a carpentry business in Ireland, is there a way I can do this, such as exists for countries like Australia etc.? (Quotas, lists of wanted skills, proof of access to a required amount of money etc.).

Is there a way for such a person to move legally to Ireland without lying and saying he is a refugee/asylum seeker?

desertcircus

"Yes I know the majority of people claiming benefits are Irish, but I constantly see my Polish and Lithuanian neighbors getting drunk on dole day, really disgracefully drunk (they have young children). I'm on the dole too and I really can't afford to get drunk any day of the week to enjoy a healthy standard of living, and I have no kids."

Okay, so maybe you don't know the whole story about your neighbours.

"With the government constantly making cuts in every area, in a relatively conservative country, our immigration laws are some of the most liberal in Europe."

Really? Care to back that up?

"This is putting enormous pressure on our public pocket, in my best estimate."

In other words, you have no idea if it is or isn't.

"If anyone has figures and statistics on the ratio of non-nationals in Ireland that are productive rather than deductive I'd be very appreciative to see them."

Hang on, you made up your mind about it with no actual figures?

"This was fair enough when the country was doing well, to invite everyone into the party; but we're really in the ditch at the moment, it frustrates me to see Irish people's money being spent on people that weren't here a few years ago, and won't be here in a few years."

As another poster says - it's everyone's money. The non-nationals pay the taxes, the non-nationals get the benefits.

"I would like to see some pro-Ireland policies being put into place, not out of a motivation for greed, but out of a need to stop our own population leaving to find work elsewhere."

And this has what exactly to do with the rest of this screed?

"In summary, this is the time to be realistic. We need to stop chancers overcharging us for everything in shops, we need to stop relying on the "service industry", and well as putting on miniskirts for multinational investors and focus on our own indigenous industrial potential . I think the most progressive and productive move we could make would be to review the status of our non-national residents."

So you identify three problems (overcharging, an over-reliance on the tertiary sector, and dependence on multinational corporations) and to deal with them you propose...looking into the status of non-nationals?

By my count, that's one unfair generalisation, two claims offered with no supporting evidence, a mischaracterisation, one non sequitur, and finally a total failure of deductive logic.

blue_steel

Nodin wrote: »

How can you have a "welfare" holiday if you have to work 2 years (I think) before being applicable for a limited period benefit......?

They are getting money without working for it. Sounds like a pretty good definition of a holiday to me.
How long is the limited period? Anyone?

desertcircus

blue_steel: it's as long as the period everyone else gets.