Physical Therapy Course

vin6599

Hi All,

Not sure if i'm posting this in the correct place or not but....

I am interested in doing a 3 year Degree course in Miltown Institute for Physical Therapy. I have read some other posts on this but i have 2 main questions i'd like answered.

1. Has someone on here completed the course, and if so what were the job oppertunities like when you finished?

2. What is the opinion of Physio's on Physical Therapy?

Cheers

Vin

RacoonQueen

Most physical therapists would be self employed, working for teams or setting up their own clinic or would work in someone elses clinic/in a multi-disciplinarly clinic.

Some physios tend to be a defensive over physical therapists and will try to degrade their work/qualifications/experience etc at the end of the day, the training is different, they're different qualifications and their treatments in private practice tend to differ greatly. Does it matter what physio's think?

G-Money

What's the difference between the two? Sorry for the stupid question

JSK 252

grandmaster wrote: »

What's the difference between the two? Sorry for the stupid question

I want to know the exact same thing!

Larianne

grandmaster wrote: »

What's the difference between the two? Sorry for the stupid question

I think the main difference is as a qualified Physiotherapist you can work within the HSE/hospital setting whereas a Physical Therapist works privately.

http://www.iptas.ie/faq.html#faq1

DrIndy

grandmaster wrote: »

What's the difference between the two? Sorry for the stupid question

The difference is like Medicine and naturopathy.

A Physiotherapist is chartered and registered like a doctor is and their registration body maintains minimal international standards for a course to register.

Physical therapy sounds very similar but does not have that key component which is the chartered bit. Thus these courses can maintain any fee paying standard of entry or outgoing standard for the graduates. They are not recognised to work in hospitals which is another key bit.

But some of the practitioners are very good though about what they do.

However - DON'T mix the two up as a potential patient or trainee.

jordan..

I heard its 5 grand a year??

vin6599

i have looked into it a bit more and there are several differences. Physical Therapists do not in any way compare themselves with Physio's, although some of the practices are the same they have different ways of approaching them. The degree im thinking of doing is a B.Sc Level 7, validated by HETAC. It does cost 5,400, which is steep but if it's what you want to do so be it. I wouldn't pay it if it was not a recognised degree. The people i spoke to were extremely professional and confirmed it for me. thanks for the replies:D

runman

I got into a physiotherapy degree last year as a mature student. If i hadnt suceeded i wouldve enrolled to qualify as a physical therapist. The real difference between both qualifications is that the physios can work in hospitals.
Iv spoken to a number of people on both sides and 1 positive for the physical therapists is that they seem to get more hands on experience.
They spend more time at massage etc and tend to be more hands on in their approach. I hear a lot of moaning by physios about physical therapists but i havent heard any patients complain about the treatments they have recieved. On the other hand iv heard a lot of patients complain about their physio experiences.
I suppose what im trying to say is if your commited to moving into this area you could make a success of it with a physical therapy qualification.
Best of luck.

RacoonQueen

A physical therapist is probably the equivalent of a musculoskeletal physiotherapist. A Physio is qualified to work with and treat stroke, MS, post - operative patients (hip replacements, knee replacements, ACL repairs and other general surgeries), oncology patients, patients with severe balance problems - the list is endless. The only clients a physical therapist would generally get is sports and lifestyle injuries.

The work the average Physio would do in the HSE on a day to day basis is completely different to what a physical therapist would do, unless that physio works with outpatients - sports injutries, fractures, RTA's, sprains etc..

Invigorate

Hi folks

I have done a significant amount of research into this course and a career in physical therapy. I have been offered a place in the Sept course and I think I am going to go for it. I have also spoke to students currently on the course and graduates of the course that are currently practising in PT.

I am a little apprehensive about doing this but I think its worth taking an educated punt! Yes physio's have a distinct advantage but I can’t afford to take four years out to do a ft degree course at this stage (getting married next year). Of all the graduates/students I have spoken to, they all said they made the right choice.

Once qualified, going part time at the start is probably the only option and building it up from there.

Just FYI; there is a similar course in Cork

http://www.iiptcork.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=2b822c728968f81f680ced277b50cb2f


It is not a Degree accredited course nor recognised by IPTAS. To me this is kind of concerning that an alternative course can just pop up like this!!:eek: Any thoughts????

Anyway, I believe if you are good at something and have a passion for it then you can make it happen. We are not training to become physio's and that is that. There appears to be a market out there for physical therapists which is a separate discipline.

Another thing, Dublin has a lot of qualified Physical Therapists while other counties don’t. That’s also worth considering if you wish to set up your own practice.

Hope this helps.

runman

Invigorate wrote: »

Hi folks

I have done a significant amount of research into this course and a career in physical therapy. I have been offered a place in the Sept course and I think I am going to go for it. I have also spoke to students currently on the course and graduates of the course that are currently practising in PT.

I am a little apprehensive about doing this but I think its worth taking an educated punt! Yes physio's have a distinct advantage but I can’t afford to take four years out to do a ft degree course at this stage (getting married next year). Of all the graduates/students I have spoken to, they all said they made the right choice.

Once qualified, going part time at the start is probably the only option and building it up from there.

Just FYI; there is a similar course in Cork

http://www.iiptcork.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=2b822c728968f81f680ced277b50cb2f


It is not a Degree accredited course nor recognised by IPTAS. To me this is kind of concerning that an alternative course can just pop up like this!!:eek: Any thoughts????

Anyway, I believe if you are good at something and have a passion for it then you can make it happen. We are not training to become physio's and that is that. There appears to be a market out there for physical therapists which is a separate discipline.

Another thing, Dublin has a lot of qualified Physical Therapists while other counties don’t. That’s also worth considering if you wish to set up your own practice.

Hope this helps.

Now that youve decided dont be aprehensive, just go for it..
Best of luck!:)

Invigorate

Thanks runman. Would like to hear from other pepole in my situ (i.e. about to enter the course in Sept).

vin6599

Hi Invigorate, I have registered for the course in Sept, i looked into it a lot before signing up. Like you i spoke with students doing the course and all said it was well worthwhile, but tough and very time consuming. I guess that's the bit i'm worried about most as i have done no type of study since the leaving cert 17 years ago!!!

Invigorate

Hi vin6599

Yes - a savage commitment. That must be taken into consideration. However, the failure rate is relatively low. There are a few drops out but at the end of the day it is a pure slog I would think. However, practical study is done in teams so that is a great incentive/help to keep up with the work and tutorials.

I don’t think lack of study experience would necessarily be a disadvantage to you - as long as you are committed to it. I would talk to the course director John O’Sullivan. He is a very upfront guy and will talk about the advantages as well as the disadvantages to doing this course.

Best of luck with whatever course of action you choose.

Laney2010

hi i did the first year course of the three years and as a teacher just couldn't fit in all the study time to complete the next two years. have to say i did enjoy it but it was hard work. i have all the books and a massage table and would be interested in selling them on if anyone wants to buy them.

vin6599

Laney2010 wrote: »

hi i did the first year course of the three years and as a teacher just couldn't fit in all the study time to complete the next two years. have to say i did enjoy it but it was hard work. i have all the books and a massage table and would be interested in selling them on if anyone wants to buy them.

Hi, I would be interest in having a look at what books you have, i have PM'd you my details, cheers

karlitob

I am a chartered physiotherapist - this to confirm a few facts.

The World Health Organisation (WHO) is the associated health organisation of the United Nations. The World Confederation of Physical Therapists is an associated body of the WHO. The Irish Society of Chartered Physiotherapists (ISCP) is the only physiotherapy/physical therapy profession that is associated to the WCPT.
To be clear, the ISCP is the only professional body in Ireland in the area of physical therapy/physiotherapy to be associated with the WCPT. An the WCPT is an associated body of the WHO which in itself is an associated body of the UN. (The US Professional Body APTA uses the title Physical Therapist and is a member of the WCPT - so is the same as a chartered physiotherapist/physical therapist here)

To ISCP therefore accredits only 4 courses in the country - RCSI, UCD, TCD and UL. All graduates are eligible for membership to the ISCP. Only these graduates are chartered physiotherapists/physical therapists.

The Irish Society of Chartered Physiotherapists (ISCP) is the designated authority acting with the approval of the Minister for Health and Children for the recognition of physiotherapy qualifications in the Republic of Ireland (S.I.139/2008). The Qualification Recognition process is guided by EU Directive 2005/36/EC.


Irish Public Health system:

To be considered for employment in the Irish public health system, all prospective employees must be eligible for membership to the ISCP. To be eligible for membership, you need to have your physiotherapy qualifications recognised by the ISCP.

Irish Private Health sector:

To use the title "Chartered Physiotherapist" in the private sector, you will also need to have your physiotherapy qualifications recognised and subsequently be a current member of the ISCP.


What is in a name?

Chartered Physiotherapists and Physical Therapists are interchangeable names. <Those who 'qualify' from the Irish Association of Physical Therapy are 'physical therapists'>. The profession stems from an amalgamation of massueses and medical gymnasts in the UK in the 1920's - the received a charter from the king and became the Chartered Physiotherapists. UCD was the first course in Ireland. The course was taught here but the exam was performed in the UK and successful graduates were titled chartered physiotherapists So when the ISCP incorporated itself separately in 1983 they chose to keep the name 'chartered' as a reference to our past.


Protection of Title.

Ireland has no legislation to protect title of professions until 2005. So, occupational therapists, speech and language therapists etc have no protection either. The UK have the Health Professionals Council - when a physiotherapist receives there membership card it bears two titles - chartered physiotherapist/physical therapist. They are interchangeable terms. There are no 'physical therapists' in the UK.
The Allied Health Care & Social Professionals Act 2005 is still waiting to be fully implemented - of course in Ireland - this will offer protection of title for chartered physiotherapist/physical therapists and will do away with forum topics like this.


Qualification:

All chartered physiotherapists, there are over 4000 in the country, have a Level 8 Honours BSc in Physiotherapt Degree from a university with at least 1000 hours clinical education under the supervision of a senior physiotherapist/clinical specialist in large acute hospitals/private practices all over Ireland. In the hospital I work in over 25 therapists have a MSc (thats Level 9 out of 10 levels available in Ireland)

All 'physical therapists' have ....? who knows?...some do a weekend massage course, a HETAC sports therapist course or more recently the IAPT have offered a 'degree ' course in 'physical therapy' from HETAC. This is misleading. It is a Level 7 (Ordinary) BSc in Applied Sciences. This is not a higher level degree, it is not a degree in 'physical therapy' - it is a modular degree part time.

There is a huge difference between the quality of courses and lecturers. My lecturers are world leaders in there field. For example, my neurology lecturer was the chair of the group that determined guidelines for stroke care in Ireland - a government policy former as a lecturer. Another lecturer is performing a clinical research fellowship (thats a good thing)


Treatments:

The have been some very silly comments about who does what treatment.

It obviously depends on the patient. Physiotherapy/Physical Therapy uses physical treatments and modalities to optimise a patients function.

Eg Musculoskeletal Injury - ankle sprain, shoulder impingements, labral hip pathology. It is not the treatment that separates us but it the clinical reasoning and use of up-to-date current evidence based treatments that separate us. Massage is a treatment technique - is it used appropriately is the question. A multi-modal approach uses manual therapy, exercise therapy etc is used to treat. Is it ridiculous to think that chartered physiotherapists 'don't use there hands' - how stupid.

Obviously, physiotherapists see a range of patients from stroke, post-op and elderly patients. Now before anyone jumps the gun and says we don't treat sports because of these patients its important to remember that these are indeed the patients that need musculoskeletal treatments. So reversal of ileostomy will have abdominal surgery - these patients present with back pain because of altered/reduced muscle activity. Elderly patients suffer with such a wide range including OA, radiculopathies etc etc


Health Insurance:

All chartered physiotherapy treatments are covered under a separate title to 'physical therapists, bone setters, chiropractics' who are covered under complementary therapists. There is also less cover than for physiotherapists ie you get more return for a physiotherapist rather than a 'physical therapist'



Choice is of therapist is paramount for the consumer so is consumer safety. I can prove competence in all areas of clinical and professional competencies - a 'physical therapist' can't. I have the support, directly and indirectly, of my colleagues (superior in skill and knowledge, both physio's surgeons, medics, advanced nursing practicioners), of education and research (weekly in-services, basic CPD levels, personal development portfolios, conferences, journal clubs, journal access, peer-to-peer review). I also see a vast array of patients that private practicioners will never see eg those referred to surgeons and referred onto me in out-patient clinics in the hospital. Klippel-Feil Syndrome, Somatoform disorders, burns patients, plastics patients (really gruesome stuff - chopping off fingers, severing nerves, zig zag scars) amd the common stuff - ACLs, ankles, shoulders.



Am waiting for a barrage of replies!

dihedral

To Invigorate:

I've just graduated from IPTAS and can confirm that it is a quality course and you get a great qualification. All our training is evidence based and up to date with the latest research. In fact some of our techniques are the very same techniques that physios use e.g. Mulligan's MWM, SNAGS, NAGS, taping, Dorn techniques etc. Our Degree is not given to us by IPTAS, its accreditated and controlled by the government department HETAC. The degree is level 7 which means it is a pass degree as opposed to level 8 degree which is an honours degree. IPTAS are considering integrating an add on year to make the degree level 8. However I know many of my recently graduated colleagues are not interested in the doing the additional year to make our level 7 degree into a level 8 degree as it is primarily a research/thesis year which won’t really benefit us as therapists. Most of us will do workshops instead such as advanced Mulligan techniques which will be of a much greater benefit to us as therapists going forward.

When considering the importance of level 7 degrees V's level 8 don’t get bogged down with it as it’s not important. Just keep in mind UCD arts degrees are level 8 honours degrees, and as a past student of both UCD and IPTAS (I did economics and history in UCD 11 yrs ago) I can tell you the degree I got from IPTAs was a much more thorough education compared to the one I received in UCD. I found IPTAS was the toughest 3 yrs of my life trying to sustain a 5 day working week with my normal job, plus trying to keep up with all my college commitments (college on weekends, clinic placement week nights, study groups week nights, assignments, exams, practical’s etc etc). I didn’t have a life for 3 yrs and didn’t see much of my friends due to the amount of time it takes up in your life. This is not a degree you can just coast through, because ultimately if your knowledge of anatomy, neurology, pathophysiology, etc is lacking, your diagnosis capabilities are compromised, and if your diagnosis capabilities are compromised then you haven’t a hope of determining what the problem is and therefore you are unable to create a safe and effective treatment plan. Students that are hoping to coast through this course are found out very quickly and usually end up dropping out. About 50 people started out in 1st year, and approx 30 ended up graduating.

Because I had been to University previously I thought I’d sail through the IPTAS course, but I found the 3 years in IPTAS to be more challenging. The secret is to keep on top of everything because it is very easy if you have a busy week in work to come home in the evenings and keep putting off the essays and study due to tiredness or whatever. But the work load keeps piling up as each week goes by so if you stay on top of things you should be fine.

It is a big challenge when you graduate to try to establish yourself as a P.T. All P.T's work privately, in that they don’t work in hospitals. Most of us start out working from a room in our homes until you build a client base, then most therapists rent a premises somewhere and operate a clinic from there. I am working out of my home part time plus working with some football and GAA teams and hope to grow my business over the next 2 yrs to a point where I will be working for myself full time.

The public now have plenty of therapists to choose from different disciplines including P.T's, Physios, Chiros, Osteos so competition is tough. P.T's charge approx €40-€60 per session which is similar to the other disciplines. You may secure yourself a nice clinic in the centre of town, but if you are an ineffective therapist you will not last long in the business so your success depends on your knowledge and skills plus your motivation so it really is down to you once you qualify how successful you are.

I would caution readers though about Karlitob's postings as I have seen him pop up on other internet forums slandering physical Therapists. Most physios have a reasonable attitude towards IPTAS graduates, however you will continue to come across the odd physio like Karlitob who does not have his facts straight about IPTAS and will do his best to paint a bleak picture of IPTAS and its degree. I have no doubt Karlitob will respond to my posting, but I have no wish to get into a game of verbal tennis with him so this is all I have to say relating to him.

The best of luck to you if you do decide to go ahead with IPTAS. You should visit the Priory clinic some evening where you can meet with students who are doing their clinical placement and have a chat with them.

Best of luck.

opinion guy

So tell me this then - why do you guys chose a name for yourself that is misleading close to physiotherapists ?

I went to see a 'physical therapist' once - a famous one looks works with lots of sports people - at the time I thought he was a physiotherapist. The consultation was appallingly unprofessional. I have never felt so abused by a 'health professional'. The only reason I paid was to get out as quick as I could.

dihedral

To Opinion Guy:

The title 'Physical Therapist' is under review due to the fact that it is not a protected title in Ireland. The fact that anyone can call themselves a Physical Therapist is as much an annoyance to IPTAS graduates as it is to Physios. The Irish Association of Physical Therapists (IAPT) have met with the Irish Society of Chartered Physiotherapists (ISCP) over the past year to discuss various issues, the title being one of them. It is my understanding that a name title change for Physical Therapists in Ireland may happen in the future depending on discussions between IAPT and ISCP.

I would suspect the Physical Therapist you went to could have been some quack unrelated to IPTAS, and if you are concerned about his/her ability to practise you should report that person to the relevant authorities. You could start by contacting www.iapt.ie and reporting him there.

All registered members of the Irish Association of Physical Therapists (IAPT) must have obtained their training and qualification from IPTAS, plus have public and private indemnity insurance, plus participate in continual professional development throughout their career. This ensures the practising physical therapist is safe and effective.

opinion guy

dihedral wrote: »

I would suspect the Physical Therapist you went to could have been some quack unrelated to IPTAS, and if you are concerned about his/her ability to practise you should report that person to the relevant authorities. You could start by contacting www.iapt.ie and reporting him there.

To be honest it was several years ago I can't even remember his name now.

karlitob

Our Degree is not given to us by IPTAS, its accreditated and controlled by the government department HETAC. - i didn;t deny this. I highlighted the fact that it is a degree in applied science not physical therapy.



I would caution readers though about Karlitob's postings as I have seen him pop up on other internet forums slandering physical Therapists. Most physios have a reasonable attitude towards IPTAS graduates, however you will continue to come across the odd physio like Karlitob who does not have his facts straight about IPTAS and will do his best to paint a bleak picture of IPTAS and its degree. I have no doubt Karlitob will respond to my posting, but I have no wish to get into a game of verbal tennis with him so this is all I have to say relating to him
- its great to see that you can make a comment about me and then not get into a verbal tennis match. Debates must be very easy for you. I have the same attitude to "physical therapists" as other physiotherapists do. I've given you the facts in my earlier post - what do you dispute.

How you can say that a year in research is of no benefit to you astounds me. A year in research is one of the most important areas that a therapist can participate in. If you can't perform a study, then how can you analysis or critique the literature. And if you can't do that then you do not have effective Evidence-Based practice. Research is the cornerstone of every therapists practice.

karlitob

dihedral wrote: »

The title 'Physical Therapist' is under review due to the fact that it is not a protected title in Ireland. The fact that anyone can call themselves a Physical Therapist is as much an annoyance to IPTAS graduates as it is to Physios. The Irish Association of Physical Therapists (IAPT) have met with the Irish Society of Chartered Physiotherapists (ISCP) over the past year to discuss various issues, the title being one of them. It is my understanding that a name title change for Physical Therapists in Ireland may happen in the future depending on discussions between IAPT and ISCP.

I dunno where you're getting your information from but we won't be rescinding our title to you.

www.physicaltherapy.ie

karlitob

opinion guy wrote: »

So tell me this then - why do you guys chose a name for yourself that is misleading close to physiotherapists ?

I went to see a 'physical therapist' once - a famous one looks works with lots of sports people - at the time I thought he was a physiotherapist. The consultation was appallingly unprofessional. I have never felt so abused by a 'health professional'. The only reason I paid was to get out as quick as I could.

therein lies the problem. One title, one statutory regulatory body is required. People need to know what they're getting, how they are being protected and what they can do to complain.

The Allied Health & Social Care Professionals Act 2005 is still waiting for implementation and unsurprisingly doesn't include 'physical therapists'

trafficlight

Hi All,

i am interested in doing a Physical Therapy coarse and was wondering id anybody has any advice regarding the coarse offered by the Irish Institue of Physical Therapy (www.iiptcork.ie) or the coarse offered by www. ntc.ie in Neuromuscular Y& Physical Therapy.

i have also come across the Degree coarse offered by ipats.ie but the coarse costs a considerable omount more than the other two.

id really appreciate any info that you can give and any advice

tanks.

Menapians

trafficlight wrote: »

Hi All,

the coarse offered by www. ntc.ie in Neuromuscular Y& Physical Therapy.

Im doing the Ntc course at the moment i highly recommend it.

spartaus

opinion guy wrote: »

To be honest it was several years ago I can't even remember his name now.

Yeah right. Famous therapist who gave you terrible service but you cant remember his name.

opinion guy

spartaus wrote: »

Yeah right. Famous therapist who gave you terrible service but you cant remember his name.

Eh whats your problem ?
I can't remember his name. Even if I could however I wouldn't be mentioning it on here and landing boards with a slander case now would I ?

Edit: Oh I see what your problem is from looking at your other posts - you are a physical therapist and you've come on here to shill. Reported

spartaus

Try being truthful. I have a problem with posts that try and slur by using made up stories.

sam34

ok can we have less of the accusations please.

eilo1

vin6599 wrote: »

Hi All,

2. What is the opinion of Physio's on Physical Therapy?

Cheers

Vin

Hi Vin,

I'm a 3rd year physio student so I thought I would give you some of my opinions on this.
I have absolutely no problem with Physical Therapy as a course. I have never been treated by one but do have some friends that have had good results with them.

From what I understand they use a lot of similar manual techniques as a physiotherapist. I have been led to believe the course is very thorough and hard work.

The main differences from physio as far as I see it are that you will not be trained specialist areas such as Neuro rehab (stroke patients etc.) care of the elderly and cario respiratory (this is for when you work ICU and suction etc).

On a more professional basis physiotherapy as with all health sciences is very evidence based. Physiotherapists are involved in research to develop new treatments such as cardiac rehabilitation and pulmonary rehabilitation.

I would say to you that if it is feasible for you to do the degree in physiotherapy that may be a better option. I only say this because your degree is worth more weight as it is a Bsc and you will have been trained by the HSE and will graduate with 1000 hours clinical experience in Irish hospitals. If you decide you only want to work in musckuloskeletal after you graduate you will have the continued support of the CSP who are constantly running additional courses to keep physios up to date with the latest research.

However there is absolutely nothing wrong with becoming a Physical Therapist and doing private work.

(oh just one thing although I dont know if it is really relevant. I was advised to do physio over another course I was looking at because Ireland is very relaxed with regard to alternative treametns etc so there may be issues with insurance etc if they ever tighten up)

karlitob

Munster Team Physio:

Requirements are for a chartered physiotherapist!!!!! Not a 'physical therapist'


http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/8996.php

bubbleking

karlitob wrote: »

Munster Team Physio:

Requirements are for a chartered physiotherapist!!!!! Not a 'physical therapist'


http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/8996.php

The Leinster rugby team and Ireland rugby team have Physical therapists as well as Athletic therapists working for them. They are all part of the IRFU so I'd whack in the C.V anyway and if you have the proper credentials you would get the job I'd wager

karlitob

bubbleking wrote: »

The Leinster rugby team and Ireland rugby team have Physical therapists as well as Athletic therapists working for them. They are all part of the IRFU so I'd whack in the C.V anyway and if you have the proper credentials you would get the job I'd wager

You mistake my point

- they don't want a 'physical therapist' - they want a chartered physiotherapist.

I know of only one ATT in the IRFU set-up. I don't know any 'physical therapists' in the IRFU set up

yit

As a physio student I don't mean to be snobbish at all here but there is a big gulf between physiotherapy and physical therapy. Entry requirements alone for example, with physio requiring 500 points plus in the LC. Physical therapists emphasise the use of manual therapy (i.e. mobilisations, muscle energy techniques, massage etc) whereas physios are way way broader based. I know of 2 year physical therapy courses and to be honest I don't have a clue how after 2 years you are near competent enough to go out there and examine shoulders,elbows,hands,spines,hips,groins,knees,ankles,feet etc etc. I'm heading into my fourth and final year now and I'm still going back to anatomy time after time after time and I really don't know how it can be done in two years and in my opinion it's dangerous because even if you know the diagnosis of a patient, if you don't understand it then treatment and prevention is probably just going to be generic and not specific to that person's needs and/or capabilities. Granted that there are great physical therapists out there and it's nothing against them I just don't think a 2 year course and even a 3 year course is sufficient. With regards to the job vacancy there, they are looking for chartered physiotherapists and/or certified athletic therapists so I wouldn't say a physical therapist would really get a look in to be honest. Physical therapy as a profession is further confused by the way in which physios are called physical therapists in America but it's important not to confuse the two.

RV

I think that’s the point though – the gulf between professions is intentional? Physiotherapy study covers more ground with conditions seen in hospital that are uncommon in private practice; burns, stroke, respiratory, surgical and so on. So the ‘physical therapist’ has a narrower focus allowing (?) a shorter more focused course.

I think the degree course teaches students to diagnose but the diploma courses don’t so people might not be equipped to diagnose after a short course. That would not stop them being professional, or safe or referring patients as appropriate. Health professionals, generally refer for further investigation or when they realize a problem is beyond their scope or outside their specialization and rightly so. It is like it is more important to recognize what you don’t know than to try and know everything.

I think most of the people pursuing the ‘physical therapy’ path would be aware of the likely work opportunities. Not that there’s harm in posting an example of a place where a physiotherapist can apply for a job.

bubbleking

karlitob wrote: »

You mistake my point

- they don't want a 'physical therapist' - they want a chartered physiotherapist.

I know of only one ATT in the IRFU set-up. I don't know any 'physical therapists' in the IRFU set up

My bad - obv the ATT's would be keen to distinguish themselves from the physical therapists also

halfrombal

I realise how frustrating this can be for chartered physiotherapists. . .but saying that the degree course in physiotherapy is more difficult based on leaving cert points is rubbish. You who obviously got 500 points should know that its based on supply and demand and not how difficult the course is.

I think people that are doing the bsc in applied sciences physical therapy should be applauded. Its costing them 15000 for the three years and sounds like pure hardship if you are trying to hold down a full time job. Not everyone can give up four years of their life unpaid.

I myself am considering doing the NTC course in neuromuscular and physical therapy. I didn't get enough points for physiotherapy at the time I did my leaving cert (9 years ago) and ended up in a completely unrelated health profession. So the NTC is really looks good to get a taster into massage therapy and looks interesting and is more flexible to people who are working full time.

karlitob

halfrombal wrote: »

I realise how frustrating this can be for chartered physiotherapists. . .but saying that the degree course in physiotherapy is more difficult based on leaving cert points is rubbish. You who obviously got 500 points should know that its based on supply and demand and not how difficult the course is.

540 points actually. As with my physiotherapy colleagues, this represents the top 2% of the country in any one year of the leaving cert. Are you saying that all courses are equally weighted in terms of difficulty? There is a significant difference between a Level 7 and Level 8 degree.

halfrombal wrote: »

I think people that are doing the bsc in applied sciences physical therapy should be applauded. Its costing them 15000 for the three years and sounds like pure hardship if you are trying to hold down a full time job. Not everyone can give up four years of their life unpaid.

I think people who achieved 520+ should also be applauded and not vilified as they seem to be on this forum. And they should also be applauded for struggling through four years without a full time job. A significant number of students that i know how down a 30 - 40 hour a week job - pubs, restaurants etc to make ends meet. They already know how tough it is without anyone needing to highlight it.

There is no 'bsc in applied sciences physical therapy'. Its a BSc in Applied Health Sciences (Level 7). There is no reference to physical therapy in the title

halfrombal wrote: »

I myself am considering doing the NTC course in neuromuscular and physical therapy. I didn't get enough points for physiotherapy at the time I did my leaving cert (9 years ago) and ended up in a completely unrelated health profession. So the NTC is really looks good to get a taster into massage therapy and looks interesting and is more flexible to people who are working full time.

There's noone saying that you cant.

yit

halfrombal wrote: »

I realise how frustrating this can be for chartered physiotherapists. . .but saying that the degree course in physiotherapy is more difficult based on leaving cert points is rubbish. You who obviously got 500 points should know that its based on supply and demand and not how difficult the course is.

I think people that are doing the bsc in applied sciences physical therapy should be applauded. Its costing them 15000 for the three years and sounds like pure hardship if you are trying to hold down a full time job. Not everyone can give up four years of their life unpaid.

I myself am considering doing the NTC course in neuromuscular and physical therapy. I didn't get enough points for physiotherapy at the time I did my leaving cert (9 years ago) and ended up in a completely unrelated health profession. So the NTC is really looks good to get a taster into massage therapy and looks interesting and is more flexible to people who are working full time.

Pure hardship? Come on seriously?

Look my opinion on the matter is that there is a big gulf between Chartered Physiotherapists and Neuromuscular/Physical Therapists.

I'm not dissing the courses or the people that do it, fair play if you are going to do it

RV

I think there’s a couple of strands to the discussion; it is generally accepted that it is more difficult to gain a degree while working full-time than if studying full time. Also, having to pay 16K+ in fees is added hardship. Most students on the physiotherapy courses pay no fees; everyone on the physical therapy degree has to pay all their fees.

There is sometimes a gulf between people calling themselves ‘physios’ and Chartered Physiotherapists in the same way as there is sometimes a gulf between some that call themselves physical therapists and those that have the B.Sc degree (in Applied Health Science).
And then there’s the added difference between professions (physio and physical) that were designed to be different in the first place.

I think the points requirement for entry relates to supply/demand. When demand outstrips supply, the points requirement increases in direct proportion. Courses with high points (for entry) may have a low failure rate. Courses with low entry requirements can have a high failure.

So there’s no evidence at all that a physiotherapist is brainier than an ordinary human. There is an arguable case that those entering physiotherapy are more clever than ordinary folk entering other programmes. But no evidence that those with say a physiotherapy degree are better than people with any other degree.

yit

RV wrote: »

I think there’s a couple of strands to the discussion; it is generally accepted that it is more difficult to gain a degree while working full-time than if studying full time. Also, having to pay 16K+ in fees is added hardship. Most students on the physiotherapy courses pay no fees; everyone on the physical therapy degree has to pay all their fees.

There is sometimes a gulf between people calling themselves ‘physios’ and Chartered Physiotherapists in the same way as there is sometimes a gulf between some that call themselves physical therapists and those that have the B.Sc degree (in Applied Health Science).
And then there’s the added difference between professions (physio and physical) that were designed to be different in the first place.


I think the points requirement for entry relates to supply/demand. When demand outstrips supply, the points requirement increases in direct proportion. Courses with high points (for entry) may have a low failure rate. Courses with low entry requirements can have a high failure.

So there’s no evidence at all that a physiotherapist is brainier than an ordinary human. There is an arguable case that those entering physiotherapy are more clever than ordinary folk entering other programmes. But no evidence that those with say a physiotherapy degree are better than people with any other degree.

So if you get 560 in your Leaving cert, do physiotherapy, and qualify as a chartered physio, you are not brainier than the 'average' person who got 310 in their leaving cert and say did a 3 yr level 7 business degree in an IT?

I don't mean that in a snobby way at all, I just don't get your point that as long as you have a degree you are at the same level of intelligence as everyone else.

bubbleking

yit wrote: »

So if you get 560 in your Leaving cert, do physiotherapy, and qualify as a chartered physio, you are not brainier than the 'average' person who got 310 in their leaving cert and say did a 3 yr level 7 business degree in an IT?

I don't mean that in a snobby way at all, I just don't get your point that as long as you have a degree you are at the same level of intelligence as everyone else.

of course all courses have a different level of difficulty but points in the LC aren't a good measure of intelligence at all....

imported_guy

bubbleking wrote: »

of course all courses have a different level of difficulty but points in the LC aren't a good measure of intelligence at all....

is there any information to support this claim?

schooling correlates pretty well with intelligence

http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/apa_01.html

Schools affect intelligence in several ways, most obviously by transmitting information. The answers to questions like "Who wrote Hamlet?" and "What is the boiling point of water?" are typically learned in school, where some pupils learn them more easily and thoroughly than others. Perhaps at least as important are certain general skills and attitudes: systematic problem-solving, abstract thinking, categorization, sustained attention to material of little intrinsic interest, repeated manipulation of basic symbols and operations. There is no doubt that schools promote and permit the development of significant intellectual skills, which develop to different extents in different children. It is because tests of intelligence draw on many of those same skills that they predict school achievement as well as they do.

Irish lass 2012

Y

halfrombal wrote: »

I realise how frustrating this can be for chartered physiotherapists. . .but saying that the degree course in physiotherapy is more difficult based on leaving cert points is rubbish. You who obviously got 500 points should know that its based on supply and demand and not how difficult the course is.

I think people that are doing the bsc in applied sciences physical therapy should be applauded. Its costing them 15000 for the three years and sounds like pure hardship if you are trying to hold down a full time job. Not everyone can give up four years of their life unpaid.

I myself am considering doing the NTC course in neuromuscular and physical therapy. I didn't get enough points for physiotherapy at the time I did my leaving cert (9 years ago) and ended up in a completely unrelated health profession. So the NTC is really looks good to get a taster into massage therapy and looks interesting and is more flexible to people who are working full time.

I don't see why it's frustrating for chartered physios at all! Physical therapists have various institutions in Ireland where they go to study their profession. They are not universities , they are privately run colleges. Colleges that have their standards for education met , aprroved and accredited for the programmes they run. The two professions are similar in ways and they treat similar conditions but are very different, in their philosophies are their techniques. Physios need to stop putting the physical therapist down! So what if u went to a university and did your degree, well done to you. You got your points and passed your degree and got your membership with your governing body the iscp. And hopefully you are working and making a difference to society and the patients you treat. Points has nothing to with it! I am a practicing registered physical therapist in Ireland. I have my own clinic , so I am self employed. I chose to study physical therapy. I got 560 points in my leaving certificate , well above the entry level for the undergrad physio degrees in Ireland. I chose to study science, I have a 2.1 honours degree in neuroscience from university college cork. I was accepted for a place on a Phd programme to study stem cell research. I am not of a lesser intelligence to a chartered physio. I was a competitive sports person through uni, I had many injuries. I gained interest in physiotherapy and physical therapy as I was treated by both professionals. I was also treated by osteopaths and massage therapists! I had a very bad injury, the only therapist I found to be helpful for me was a physical therapist, so I decided to go back and study physical therapy part time. I took out a loan, worked my ass off and passed with first class honours the whole way thru! I chose to be a physical therapist.
I have since gone on to study many post grad courses in osteo manipulation, dry needling, electro therapy, Pilates , biomechanics, sports performance. I love learning ! I love my job and I am proud to be a physical therapist. I do not knock physios , osteopaths or other health professionals in my line of work. I think we all need to work together and see what we can learn from each other as a multi disciplinary health care community for the future! We all have our own strengths to offerto our patients. This division needs to stop! I do not claim to be a physio , if a member of the public is confused I explain clearly what we do, treat and the differences between the two professions! This crap needs to stop! Physio become chartered when they apply for membership with their regulating body the Iscp . Physical therapist become registered when they are accepted to their regulating bodies. There are 3 main bodies for physical therapy in Ireland the rpti, Iapt and the Iptas. These are all self regulated just like the Iscp ! Physical therapist must pass certain criteria to become registered, cpds and up to date first aid courses must be followed to retain membership. We are not of a lesser therapist to a physio! We are completely different. It's time to educate yourselves an move with the times! Evolve with your colleagues! Don't knock them down!

opinion guy

Irish lass 2012 wrote: »

Y


I don't see why it's frustrating for chartered physios at all! Physical therapists have various institutions in Ireland where they go to study their profession. They are not universities , they are privately run colleges. Colleges that have their standards for education met , aprroved and accredited for the programmes they run. The two professions are similar in ways and they treat similar conditions but are very different, in their philosophies are their techniques. Physios need to stop putting the physical therapist down! So what if u went to a university and did your degree, well done to you. You got your points and passed your degree and got your membership with your governing body the iscp. And hopefully you are working and making a difference to society and the patients you treat. Points has nothing to with it! I am a practicing registered physical therapist in Ireland. I have my own clinic , so I am self employed. I chose to study physical therapy. I got 560 points in my leaving certificate , well above the entry level for the undergrad physio degrees in Ireland. I chose to study science, I have a 2.1 honours degree in neuroscience from university college cork. I was accepted for a place on a Phd programme to study stem cell research. I am not of a lesser intelligence to a chartered physio. I was a competitive sports person through uni, I had many injuries. I gained interest in physiotherapy and physical therapy as I was treated by both professionals. I was also treated by osteopaths and massage therapists! I had a very bad injury, the only therapist I found to be helpful for me was a physical therapist, so I decided to go back and study physical therapy part time. I took out a loan, worked my ass off and passed with first class honours the whole way thru! I chose to be a physical therapist.
I have since gone on to study many post grad courses in osteo manipulation, dry needling, electro therapy, Pilates , biomechanics, sports performance. I love learning ! I love my job and I am proud to be a physical therapist. I do not knock physios , osteopaths or other health professionals in my line of work. I think we all need to work together and see what we can learn from each other as a multi disciplinary health care community for the future! We all have our own strengths to offerto our patients. This division needs to stop! I do not claim to be a physio , if a member of the public is confused I explain clearly what we do, treat and the differences between the two professions! This crap needs to stop! Physio become chartered when they apply for membership with their regulating body the Iscp . Physical therapist become registered when they are accepted to their regulating bodies. There are 3 main bodies for physical therapy in Ireland the rpti, Iapt and the Iptas. These are all self regulated just like the Iscp ! Physical therapist must pass certain criteria to become registered, cpds and up to date first aid courses must be followed to retain membership. We are not of a lesser therapist to a physio! We are completely different. It's time to educate yourselves an move with the times! Evolve with your colleagues! Don't knock them down!

Speaking as the patient who went to a physical therapist not knowing the was something different to physiotherapy, and being manhandled and treated disrespectfully by the physical therapist I say no to this. No. You guys need to change your name and stop trading off the similarity of your name to that of physiotherapists.

Irish lass 2012

RacoonQueen wrote: »

A physical therapist is probably the equivalent of a musculoskeletal physiotherapist. A Physio is qualified to work with and treat stroke, MS, post - operative patients (hip replacements, knee replacements, ACL repairs and other general surgeries), oncology patients, patients with severe balance problems - the list is endless. The only clients a physical therapist would generally get is sports and lifestyle injuries.

The work the average Physio would do in the HSE on a day to day basis is completely different to what a physical therapist would do, unless that physio works with outpatients - sports injutries, fractures, RTA's, sprains etc..

What is your background raccoon queen? For you to comment on such a topic. I am a practicing registered physical therapist, and I treat ALL of the above conditions ! Do you know what musculoskeletal means?? Of course we treat pre post op cases! Rehab! Exercises ! Treatment for reduction of scar tissue to increase ROMs! Strengthening the lot! Paeds, to geriatric! Pain reductions OA ,RA ! MS! Parkinson's disease associated problems! Manual lymph drainage for cancer patients! Osteopathic spinal manipulations! Orthotic assessment, ergonomics! Biomechanics! N yea eh sports injuries too! He physical therapist does a lot more than u think Hun! They must think for themselves, assess and treat! We really do great work! Oh n we also do our fair share of massage too!

Irish lass 2012

opinion guy wrote: »

Speaking as the patient who went to a physical therapist not knowing the was something different to physiotherapy, and being manhandled and treated disrespectfully by the physical therapist I say no to this. No. You guys need to change your name and stop trading off the similarity of your name to that of physiotherapists.[/


That is a very unfortunate experience you had. However you must not paint all physical therapists with the same brush! This therapist you went to must be reported! Where they registered??? As a member of the public you must protect yourself and make sure the therapist you choose is registered or chartered. We physical therapists do not "try" to pass off as a physiotherapist. We are Physical therapists. You can report that therapist to their register , the board can decide to strike this person off the register. I truely am sorry to hear of such an experience.

Irish lass 2012

: Y
Quote:
Originally Posted by halfrombal
I realise how frustrating this can be for chartered physiotherapists. . .but saying that the degree course in physiotherapy is more difficult based on leaving cert points is rubbish. You who obviously got 500 points should know that its based on supply and demand and not how difficult the course is.

I think people that are doing the bsc in applied sciences physical therapy should be applauded. Its costing them 15000 for the three years and sounds like pure hardship if you are trying to hold down a full time job. Not everyone can give up four years of their life unpaid.

I myself am considering doing the NTC course in neuromuscular and physical therapy. I didn't get enough points for physiotherapy at the time I did my leaving cert (9 years ago) and ended up in a completely unrelated health profession. So the NTC is really looks good to get a taster into massage therapy and looks interesting and is more flexible to people who are working full time.

I don't see why it's frustrating for chartered physios at all! Physical therapists have various institutions in Ireland where they go to study their profession. They are not universities , they are privately run colleges. Colleges that have their standards for education met , aprroved and accredited for the programmes they run. The two professions are similar in ways and they treat similar conditions but are very different, in their philosophies are their techniques. Physios need to stop putting the physical therapist down! So what if u went to a university and did your degree, well done to you. You got your points and passed your degree and got your membership with your governing body the iscp. And hopefully you are working and making a difference to society and the patients you treat. Points has nothing to with it! I am a practicing registered physical therapist in Ireland. I have my own clinic , so I am self employed. I chose to study physical therapy. I got 560 points in my leaving certificate , well above the entry level for the undergrad physio degrees in Ireland. I chose to study science, I have a 2.1 honours degree in neuroscience from university college cork. I was accepted for a place on a Phd programme to study stem cell research. I am not of a lesser intelligence to a chartered physio. I was a competitive sports person through uni, I had many injuries. I gained interest in physiotherapy and physical therapy as I was treated by both professionals. I was also treated by osteopaths and massage therapists! I had a very bad injury, the only therapist I found to be helpful for me was a physical therapist, so I decided to go back and study physical therapy part time. I took out a loan, worked my ass off and passed with first class honours the whole way thru! I chose to be a physical therapist.
I have since gone on to study many post grad courses in osteo manipulation, dry needling, electro therapy, Pilates , biomechanics, sports performance. I love learning ! I love my job and I am proud to be a physical therapist. I do not knock physios , osteopaths or other health professionals in my line of work. I think we all need to work together and see what we can learn from each other as a multi disciplinary health care community for the future! We all have our own strengths to offerto our patients. This division needs to stop! I do not claim to be a physio , if a member of the public is confused I explain clearly what we do, treat and the differences between the two professions! This crap needs to stop! Physio become chartered when they apply for membership with their regulating body the Iscp . Physical therapist become registered when they are accepted to their regulating bodies. There are 3 main bodies for physical therapy in Ireland the rpti, Iapt and the Iptas. These are all self regulated just like the Iscp ! Physical therapist must pass certain criteria to become registered, cpds and up to date first aid courses must be followed to retain membership. We are not of a lesser therapist to a physio! We are completely different. It's time to educate yourselves an move with the times! Evolve with your colleagues! Don't knock them down!

yit

Irish lass 2012 wrote: »

What is your background raccoon queen? For you to comment on such a topic. I am a practicing registered physical therapist, and I treat ALL of the above conditions ! Do you know what musculoskeletal means?? Of course we treat pre post op cases! Rehab! Exercises ! Treatment for reduction of scar tissue to increase ROMs! Strengthening the lot! Paeds, to geriatric! Pain reductions OA ,RA ! MS! Parkinson's disease associated problems! Manual lymph drainage for cancer patients! Osteopathic spinal manipulations! Orthotic assessment, ergonomics! Biomechanics! N yea eh sports injuries too! He physical therapist does a lot more than u think Hun! They must think for themselves, assess and treat! We really do great work! Oh n we also do our fair share of massage too!

So you do cardiac rehab with people? Everything you said you do there is all musculoskeletal and orthopaedic related within the diseased you mention, a chartered physiotherapist working in intensive care and in the wide variety of disciplines associated with physiotherapy is very different to a physical therapist, and that is not knocking physical therapy for one second.

My problem with physical therapy is simply the name, I think because physical therapy in the US is physiotherapy, that it is therefore misleading.