Am I Taking the mick ?

macl

Going rate on dole is about 210 / week

I need a plasterer to do a week's work - Am I taking the mick putting up posters on the dole line offering 75 cash / day when a currently employed plasterer will be charging me _alot_ more on a daily basis or am I being smart, saving a tonne of cash and helping someone out earn a few handy quid?


Votre Opinions?

DubTony

What? You intend to walk into the dole office and put sheets of paper up offering work with a pay rate on it that's less than what these fellahs used to earn before morning break? In the dole office? Seriously?

I think apart from the odd civil servant you might piss off, there'd be a few plasters that might take offence as well, and those f*ckers are well built.

AndyJB

DubTony wrote: »

What? You intend to walk into the dole office and put sheets of paper up offering work..

If the dole office staff have no problem with it, what's the problem? It'll be up to the individuals themselves to go for it or not.

....these fellahs used to earn before morning break?

The key point of your comment above is "used to earn".

...there'd be a few plasters that might take offence as well, and those f*ckers are well built.

The quys that "might take offense" as you state, unfortunately may well be spending their tea breaks in the same dole office. If I read correctly between the lines from your "those f......s are well built" comment, they will also likely spend some time in prison pondering their dole office experience.

There is downturn in the building sector at the moment. Despite the OPs massive 5 day contract this fact will not be altered. If a few more people could build extensions or do house upgrades your tradesmen "comrades" would be in better shape.

If trades people and professionals got back to charging reasonable rates we'd all be better off.

Best of luck to the OP with the renovation.

nellyshark

macl wrote: »

offering 75 cash / day

I assume you dont mean cash, instead a rate of 75 p/d?

DubTony

Andy ... WTF .... your post if more full of sh*t than mine was.

References to comrades and prison are lost on me. I can't imagine why you've put them in there. And trades people and professionals are as entitled to a profit (of whatever amount they can get) as anyone else. Are you of the Vincent Brown opinion that we should all get 75K a year?

<

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OH LOOK ! There's a smiley.

Oh and those hard working dole office employees have more to do than go around the office all day cleaning up advertising.

Gurgle

macl wrote: »

I need a plasterer to do a week's work - Am I taking the mick putting up posters on the dole line offering 75 cash / day when a currently employed plasterer will be charging me _alot_ more on a daily basis or am I being smart, saving a tonne of cash and helping someone out earn a few handy quid?

You're being smart, saving a tonne of cash and helping someone out, but €75 might be a bit on the low side. Most of the plasterers on the dole queue will be charging double that as a daily rate for nixers. You're not the first person to think of this.

J_Wholesale

We had a guy in to do some plastering for a couple of days. He quoted is €100 for 2 days work and said the quote was so low because it was the only way he could get work - as in, any higher and he'd be undercut by his competition. Prices across the building trade are nothing like they were 3 years ago.

We paid him more (as he certainly deserved it), but it's a good indicator of what plasterers are prepared to work for nowadays. There is nothing at all wrong with your €75/day rate, not of they're prepared to work for it.

macl

Thanks all

I'll prob stick the poster up outside rather than inside the office as that may grate on a few people...but feck it. It's a service to the jobless

I understand these tradesmen were all earning way more on a daily basis but times have changed and we know now that those wage levels were unsustainable. I think people's attitudes need to change and understand things aren't going back to 'the good auld days' for some time yet.

Beggers can't be choosers.

Thanks again for feedback - Getting the pages laminated now!

NathanKingerlee

I'd feel quite strongly about this. Everyone is entitled to make a good living for a good day's work and us driving down hard working people's wages to a pittance isn't right, fair or sustainable.

I don't know what you work at, but how would you feel if someone offered you a miniscule amount of money per day, for the job you do, you're qualified in and you wont compromise the quality of?

What you're suggesting leads to competitor undercutting and more people actually on the dole as they can't afford to work for the new rates being forced upon them by the public looking for the cheapest deal.

Axwell

It also leads to cowboys undercutting professionals to do the work and this applies to all services. Professionals who are skilled and learned their trade losing out on work because the person offering the work decides to offer what they feel is a fair price because of the economical situation. Cowboys who are under/unskilled get the work because they are willing to take the low amount being offered and then end up doing a less than satisfactory job and costing you more in the long run. You arent offering much above minimum wage to someone who is skilled at what they do and you expect them to do a quality job.

Also I think the social will take down any posters you put up outside to be honest. You might be better posting on www.adverts.ie or in your local supermarket bulletin board that you are looking for a plasterer and the rate you are offering.

oldat31

macl wrote: »

Thanks all

I'll prob stick the poster up outside rather than inside the office as that may grate on a few people...but feck it. It's a service to the jobless

I understand these tradesmen were all earning way more on a daily basis but times have changed and we know now that those wage levels were unsustainable. I think people's attitudes need to change and understand things aren't going back to 'the good auld days' for some time yet.

Beggers can't be choosers.

Thanks again for feedback - Getting the pages laminated now!

You really think your actully helping someone buy paying them less then the avg hourly rate.

Man really. ARE YOU MAD!!!!!!!!!

You are going to print a peice of paper that may as well say.

" I WILL PAY YOU A SLAVES WAGES TO WORK FOR ME."

People like you are just adding problems to the problem that is already there.

Gurgle

Axwell wrote: »

losing out on work because the person offering the work decides to offer what they feel is a fair price because of the economical situation

Sure, some tradesmen have an over-inflated sense of their own 'worth', and will take either the dole or a €60k job but won't accept anything in the middle.

Theres also plenty of tradesmen who are grown ups with bills and families. Cash-in-hand is worth more now than it ever was during the boom.

oldat31 wrote:

You really think your actully helping someone buy paying them less then the avg hourly rate.

Helping everyone imo, bringing a bit of deflation to the market. If its really too low to be worthwhile, nobody will take you up on it.

DubTony

Here's my feeling on this. I don't give a sh*te who puts up signs offering whatever paltry rate of pay. That's capitalism in action. Get what you can for as cheap as possible, or sell your product / service for as much as you can get. That's how it works. The balance between the two is seen as the fair price.

So as far as I'm concerned, all's good. But the social responsibility people (we know them) might feel different. We've got somebody suggesting encouraging people to break the law by doing work while drawing the dole. Personally I don't care if a fellah works while on the dole, but are we looking at a situation whereby, if this catches on, the walls of the buildings surrounding the local dole office will be covered with signs offering work for knock-down rates to people who are being supported by the state.

We've all heard about the race to the bottom. Looks like it's started here.

macl

NathanKingerlee wrote: »

I'd feel quite strongly about this. Everyone is entitled to make a good living for a good day's work and us driving down hard working people's wages to a pittance isn't right, fair or sustainable.

I don't know what you work at, but how would you feel if someone offered you a miniscule amount of money per day, for the job you do, you're qualified in and you wont compromise the quality of?

Incorrect. The people I am offering the job to are not employed therefore they have no wages, no good prospect at building work and therefore should have no expectations. Why should I pay more for a price that is generally accepted as being inflated? What is wrong with paying someone more than they are currently on?

If I offer 75 euro and they work 8 hours per day isn't that higher than the minimum wage? Maybe I should just offer that?

In relation to social responsibility: I'm offering people who dont have work, work.

macl

I should also note, I am not expecting anyone to break the law and am placing the responsibility to declare earnings on the employee. Whether they decide to comply or not is not my responsibility. They are a contractor and I am not obliged to take care of their tax affairs.

Gurgle

DubTony wrote: »

We've got somebody suggesting encouraging people to break the law by doing work while drawing the dole.

Its encouraging no such thing, its offering money in exchange for goods and/or services. Its up to the person who takes this up to inform the dole office that he has a day's work / a weeks work, or whatever.

The problem is that our social welfare system is broken, and there is no proper way to sign off / put the dole on hold / claim less while doing short term work. It is not red-tapely possible to be self employed for 2 days per week for example and claim JB or JA for the remainder.

This is why the person who does it will just quietly take the cash and say nothing.

oldat31

macl wrote: »

I should also note, I am not expecting anyone to break the law and am placing the responsibility to declare earnings on the employee. Whether they decide to comply or not is not my responsibility. They are a contractor and I am not obliged to take care of their tax affairs.

Then tell them to submit an invoice with tax and vat added.

Also, il take you up on the offer. Im on the dole and i have never plastered before.

DEAL?

I assume you are going to vet the people you want to do the work?.
Or are you going to take the first offer you get...

And BTW you always get what you pay for.

Axwell

Gurgle wrote: »

The problem is that our social welfare system is broken, and there is no proper way to sign off / put the dole on hold / claim less while doing short term work. It is not red-tapely possible to be self employed for 2 days per week for example and claim JB or JA for the remainder.

Yes there is, they sign on for casual work and get their full dole and for the days they work in a week they hand in a docket and the alterations to their dole are made based on this.

You are offering about €5 over minimum wage by the way and even question should you just offer the minimum. While I agree in the current climate people offering services have to look at their prices it doesnt mean that people offering work are right to come along and offer pitance to skilled people and expect the same quality of work from them as they would if they were paying good money when things were better. There has to be a middle ground, these people are skilled at what they do and that is worth more than mimimum wage.

You can do the whole mother Teresa thing about how you are giving someone on the dole work and they should be glad of it, but really it comes down to you looking to get the work done as cheap as possible to save you money. You are ignoring the fact they are skilled people and are trying to exploit the current economic climate to your advantage. While I agree that service providers need to lower their prices to match this climate I dont think it gives people looking for services to completely take the mick in the money they offer because they feel they are doing them a favour. That is unless you are happy for some unskilled chap on the dole to give you a call and say yeah no bother ill do it and then you find out he knows about as much about plastering as you and you end up forking out more money in the long run because you decided not to pay someone what their skills were worth.

oldat31

Axwell wrote: »

Yes there is, they sign on for casual work and get their full dole and for the days they work in a week they hand in a docket and the alterations to their dole are made based on this.

You are offering about €5 over minimum wage by the way and even question should you just offer the minimum. While I agree in the current climate people offering services have to look at their prices it doesnt mean that people offering work are right to come along and offer pitance to skilled people and expect the same quality of work from them as they would if they were paying good money when things were better. There has to be a middle ground, these people are skilled at what they do and that is worth more than mimimum wage.

You can do the whole mother Teresa thing about how you are giving someone on the dole work and they should be glad of it, but really it comes down to you looking to get the work done as cheap as possible to save you money. You are ignoring the fact they are skilled people and are trying to exploit the current economic climate to your advantage. While I agree that service providers need to lower their prices to match this climate I dont think it gives people looking for services to completely take the mick in the money they offer because they feel they are doing them a favour. That is unless you are happy for some unskilled chap on the dole to give you a call and say yeah no bother ill do it and then you find out he knows about as much about plastering as you and you end up forking out more money in the long run because you decided not to pay someone what their skills were worth.

well said.

DubTony

Again let me re-iterate that I don't care. I'm simply being a sort of devils advocate. Macl, if you can get people to work for you then fair play, but don't for a minute argue you're doing anyone but yourself any favours here. You're actively seeking people who are down on their luck, and asking them to break the law. Whether they do that or not has nothing to do with you, it's their own business.

Imagine a scenario where there are a bunch of dole drawing plasterers who queue up every day at the dole office, not to sign on, but to look for work that is "advertised" by prospective customers. Let's just say that these guys are "willing to work" for whatever they can get. On the other hand there are a bunch of plasterers who aren't on the dole, who, because they don't have the luxury of a state handout, have to charge more than the guys who are on the dole.

So my point earlier is mute. This isn't capitalism in action at all. It's in fact something akin to the worst sort of socialism. Why? Because it's effectively state interference in the marketplace. The guy who's drawing the dole has nothing to lose by working for less than normal as he is already supported by the state. The guy who doesn't benefit from state aid is at a massive disadvantage. He has the responsibility of paying taxes, supporting a family, paying for a van, paying a mortgage etc.

So again I must change my statement. This IS capitalism in action. The worst type of all. The type that the people who don't regard themselves as capitalists hate the most. It is of course the exploitative type.

Gurgle

Axwell wrote: »

Yes there is, they sign on for casual work and get their full dole and for the days they work in a week they hand in a docket and the alterations to their dole are made based on this.

This is fine for casual employment, i.e. hourly paid by a registered employer. There is no way to do it as self-employed (afaik)

Axwell wrote: »

it doesnt mean that people offering work are right to come along and offer pitance to skilled people and expect the same quality of work from them.

>> offering <<
Its a buyers market, who is harmed by offering this rate for the work?
Nobody on the dole queue is obliged to take up the offer (besides, the actual rate isn't really relevant to the topic).

Axwell

Gurgle wrote: »

This is fine for casual employment, i.e. hourly paid by a registered employer. There is no way to do it as self-employed (afaik)

As I stated above you are incorrect and the same applies to self employed people, they can go in and claim for casual work. For example working on contract 2 days a week for someone and then sign on for the other days and hand in slips for the 2 days they worked.

Of course the rate is relevant to the topic, hes offering basically minimum wage for what is a skilled trade. Its a buyers market but like I said thats no reason to take the mick and offer peanuts trying to take advantage of someones financial position and "do them a favour" when really you are just trying to get skilled work done for as little as possible and save plenty of money. People with a trade or skill have the right to charge and get paid above minimum wage for their services regardless of the economic climate. Some charge way more than they should be but thats at one extreme of the scale, there is a middleground where skilled labour deserves a certain level of pay.

Edit: You even said yourself at the start plasterers on the dole would charge a day rate of double this amount hes offering, and rightly so they are skilled people offering a service that he needs.

macl

oldat31 wrote: »

Then tell them to submit an invoice with tax and vat added.

Also, il take you up on the offer. Im on the dole and i have never plastered before.

DEAL?

I assume you are going to vet the people you want to do the work?.
Or are you going to take the first offer you get...

And BTW you always get what you pay for.

I don't have to tell them to do anything. It is not my responsibility. I am going to ask for references yes. I see the point you are making but you are not seeing mine.

macl

DubTony wrote: »

You're actively seeking people who are down on their luck, and asking them to break the law. Whether they do that or not has nothing to do with you, it's their own business.

Excuse me - I'm not asking anyone to break the law. Please do not accuse me of this. I am offering a job - I can pay by cash / cheque or whatever. I am not asking anyone to renege on their tax obligations.

WIZE

You should do it . Stick your posters up

Some Plasterers will laugh at the Idea but I others will do it as a nixer .

I just dont think your going to get a Guarantee on the Work but feck it .

They could be sitting on there arse all day bored or they may want to earn some cash

I would go for it and see what happens

DubTony

macl wrote: »

Excuse me - I'm not asking anyone to break the law. Please do not accuse me of this. I am offering a job - I can pay by cash / cheque or whatever. I am not asking anyone to renege on their tax obligations.

Don't go getting on your high horse. You left the right to do that behind when you opened this thread. There's not really anything wrong with asking people to break the law in my opinion. Some sort of conspiracy to defraud the government may be on the statute books, but I'm not aware of it. There are, however, some of us who've been around too long not to recognise a chancer when we see one.

I think that you and I both know that nobody will take the work you have to offer if they have to give up a dole payment as well. You're specifically targeting the dole office and offering what is effectively a pittance in the hope that someone will take you up on the offer, in the full knowledge that a working plasterer won't do it.

And don't for a minute think you can pull the wool over my eyes. What you're actually doing is quite despicable. While I believe absolutely in the free market and all it's faults, I don't have to like it completely. The reason unions ever took a foothold in the workplace is because people like you thought it would be a good idea to squeeze as much out of their workforce without giving anything like a fair remuneration. You're effectively offering 72c an hour above the minimum for the work of a supremely skilled person. End Of.

palethinboy

This isounds like a fine idea to me, more cash for you & more cash for someone with no job. great.

oldat31

Im taking it that anyone that thinks this is a great idea, ether has no profission or is working.

palethinboy

oldat31 wrote: »

Im taking it that anyone that thinks this is a great idea, ether has no profission or is working.

I'm working yes, but if i wasn't i'd be glad of this mans offer

Southsider1

DubTony wrote: »

I think apart from the odd civil servant you might piss off,

That's if you could wake them up!!:D

oldat31

You know, its just funny how a plasterer is now worth less then a burger flipper in macdonalds, or a cashier is dunnes.