Liberalism

16-03-2010 12:11AM #1

Would any Irish parties be seen as or would like to be seen as liberal?
As far as I know there is no particularly liberal party and all would fall under some sort of conservative/socialist banner.

Has there ever been a liberal movement at all in the history of the state?

JJJJNR · 16-03-2010 12:14AM

Fine Gael would like to be seen as Liberal conservative.

Lockstep · 16-03-2010 12:49AM

The PDs were liberal.

dubfaction · 16-03-2010 12:57AM

they promoted economic liberalism but there it ends

16-03-2010 12:58AM

According to Wiki they were Conservative Liberal indeed. Any idea what kind of positions they held which reflected this ideal? (besides economic policies).

Also, I'm not sure if FG would really be Liberal Conservative as a whole. As far as I can see with a few minutes of searching they describe themselves as progressive centrist party. Maybe economically liberal though.

Lockstep · 16-03-2010 01:07AM

IIRC, the PDs were liberal enough on issues like contraception and divorce.

dubfaction · 16-03-2010 01:18AM

as long as you weren't foreign or poor the PD's were bastions of liberalism

Permabear · 16-03-2010 11:56AM

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anymore · 16-03-2010 01:18PM

Happily the State run postal service was all too happy to deliver the condoms you had ordered from England throught the post !

:D

dubfaction · 16-03-2010 03:01PM

Examples of social radicalism?

You haven't mentioned anywhere an example of their social liberalism. Are we by implication to infer from your Life of Brian paragraph that the PD's brought about this utopia. Did the PD’s single-handedly take on the might of the Catholic Church-infected-state to liberalize divorce/homosexual/right to contraception laws at that time?? Did Mary Robinson, Ivana Bacik, David Norris and a host of others on the left not take part in those struggles??

The PD's were a party of elitists whose raison detre was the promotion and protection of big business which you allude to in your opening paragraph and whose laissez faire philosophy towards state intervention and deregulatory policies have gone a long way towards creating the mess we are in today. The 'rising tide floats all boats' notion that they propagated has proven to be a fallacy. Not only have relative poverty rates not decreased during the boom years they have increased substantially and now in the wreckage of the celtic tiger we will be experiencing the affects of their policies for years to come (and obviously I don’t mean that in the positive sense). You are correct that the two main parties did usurp their policies making them redundant- good that their gone, terrible that laisse faire individualism has become the norm.

Permabear · 16-03-2010 03:54PM

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ei.sdraob · 16-03-2010 04:27PM

imagines some postal worker making hole in them before repackaging

dubfaction · 16-03-2010 05:24PM

Congratulations you've managed to miss my point on all issues! Briefly and rather than getting into another round of you said, I said and for what its worth your claiming the PD's are socially as well as economically liberal. I'm asking you for a concrete example. You’ve given an example of their economic policy with regard to privatisation followed by a summary of the state of the country 20 years ago but you haven’t explained where the PD’s fit into this. I’ll happily get into the NAMA, social welfare debate with you in another thread but in fairness to the original question lets stick to the point.

Permabear · 16-03-2010 08:02PM

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View · 17-03-2010 02:57AM

Believe it or not we do have a liberal party - that is, if you judge them by their self-declared affiliation at EU level. Would you believe it but our Liberals are in fact Fianna Fail!!!

They replaced the PDs as members of the ELDR, so I guess the PDs did leave a legacy.

That said, I'd personally say FF fall into the "economic liberal" side of the ELDR rather than the "social liberal" side.

Offhand, I'd also probably say that Labour could be loosely classed as falling under the "social liberalism" umbrella. They have the second highest socio-economic voter profile (Greens are highest) so I'd say they probably favour "a better society" rather than "the socialist working class" sort of stuff that Joe Higgins trots out all the time.

Ostrom · 17-03-2010 01:43PM

Interesting to see McDowell positioning himself in the Independent on sunday. I wonder if circumstances would favour a party reformation? He could have a reasonable platform for stronger liberal policies considering all that has happened (NAMA, public service etc) since his departure.

Permabear · 17-03-2010 01:58PM

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ei.sdraob · 17-03-2010 02:18PM

while I agree with above points

I would not vote for the PDs if McDowell was still with them

I have a personal hate for the guy

Permabear · 17-03-2010 03:19PM

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Ostrom · 17-03-2010 04:33PM

I would rather not see McDowell take a seat again - I couldn't agree with his justice policies (which imo were a significant setback). Why do you think organised liberalism is such a minority? I remember the young PD's being fairly active a few years back on uni campuses, and current popular discourse would suggest the general sentiment is present - all that seems to be missing is an organised programme for government.

Permabear · 17-03-2010 10:53PM

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Valmont · 17-03-2010 11:37PM

Spearheaded by you, I hope!

I'm surprised that even the Irish Times and the Irish Independent do not seem to have many articles at all coming from a liberal perspective. In fact, I opened the times up the other day to read a full page article on the state of politics in this country by Damien Rice:rolleyes: I don't know what to think.

Eliot Rosewater · 18-03-2010 12:48AM

There's probably a couple of hundred liberals in the same position waiting around for someone else to set the wheels in motion. DF may be right in attributing this to an innate individualism, but there's also the argument that liberals are meritocratic and proactive. A liberal movement is needed if only to voice a different point of view. Instead of asking how the government is doing something it would ask why the government is doing that something.

I figure that myself and Valmont have the same attitude on this. I think that if a proper liberal movement was founded we would both join it immediately. But both of us are stuck in this inertia. I sometimes think "what can I do about it?" What can we?

Permabear · 18-03-2010 11:17AM

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Eliot Rosewater · 18-03-2010 05:30PM

Setting up a liberal grouping within Fine Gael could be both a good thing and a bad thing. It has the potential to bear fruition. As you rightly point out, a candidate generally has to be from a well-established party to be elected. I don't think this tendency of the electorate to have cold-feet will end soon. So a liberal grouping could influence the bigger party as a whole and have policy implemented.

On the other hand, the party might ignore the grouping due to a cultural populism (that is, insulting as few people as possible in order to maximize the vote). All the efforts of the group may be in vain. Also, being within a broader party may dilute the small group as members tend towards the political centre (turning and turning in the shortening gyre, as it were

).

An independent group or political party would be the best option for ensuring the movement sticks to its liberal values, even at the certain risk of electoral misfortune. But then, the least you can do is try.

The most pressing issue is how to start off. Where does one begin in bringing Ireland's liberals together and organizing them into a single movement?

ChocolateSauce · 19-03-2010 05:35PM

For me one problem with standing up with a liberal party is the nature of their social/economic divide. The PD's were economically liberal but socially convervative, and no matter what I think of their economics I won't stand up and join a socially conservative party. In a similar vein, a party which was socially liberal but very left-wing (socialists left wing, not labour left-wing) wouldn't appeal to me either.

The UK's Lib Dems is the only major party in the English speaking world which I would say fits most of my views, but they might be just a little too statist for you, especially when it comes to the EU.

To use a political analogy, although I imagine you and I could form coalitions and agree on many things, I don't think we'd be quite comfortable in the same party, and this problem extends to many liberals in Ireland and beyond, which is a weakness in the overall movement because unity = strength, for better or for worse.

Pragmatically, I would say the best answer is to have a "centre-liberal" party which would attempt to capture the greatest number of votes. Although it probably wouldn't satisfy many people, it might be the only way to move in that direction.

There is liberals.ie, but the site doesn't offer much (The_Minister might know more...) so far.

Permabear · 19-03-2010 06:44PM

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Eliot Rosewater · 19-03-2010 10:05PM

Even though I'm a libertarian more so than a liberal, I think I would prefer a new party to be a little less extreme than myself and donegalfella. I think you have to strike a balance between idealogical absolutism and a policy base that will actually attract a significant amount og members. I would envisage a new party to be at least palatable to anyone who desires a rationalized or smaller government, not just those who advocate its shrinking to a relatively minuscule level.

Liberals.ie was initially promising, even if it was based on an Americanized use of the term liberal. However a year has passed and the website hasn't changed, and my investigations into the group have all been in vain.

As I said above, the exact economic stance of a new movement might involve a little compromise on the part of extreme economic Right-wingers like you and me, but in terms of social issues I think its position would be more clear-cut. I would imagine it would advocate reducing restrictions on things like abortion, soft drugs and prostitution, as well as promoting equality for same-sex couples.

I wasn't involved in the PD's myself. By the time I came of political age I viewed them as little more than an extension of FF. As a result I'm unaware of the organizational structures they had, and how easy it would be to unearth them. It is a promising lead though.

An interesting question and one that is extremely important to the long-term credibility of a future party. I suppose the constitution of the party could impose limits on what the party promotes, and provide a basis for its official policies. It could also include a ban on using certain populist words while canvassing!!

Ostrom · 20-03-2010 12:09AM

It may not be a question of unearthing - the political landscape, and social and economic context have changed completely from when McDowell-Harney et.al last stood.

As DF said, social conservatism is unlikely to draw support - welfare reform less so - but popular sentiment seems to be hitting at important core issues; people are aware (and I hope I'm not coming off condescending) in a general sense of the implications of issues such as public debt servicing (and its left-center debated alternatives), but this is rarely challenged or even interpreted in the public domain in terms of liberal philosophy/practice.

This could be an ideal opportunity?

silverharp · 20-03-2010 12:55AM

My own thoughs are that 20 and 30 somethings will notice 2 things, the "social contact" will be viewed as a ponzi scheme from their point of view as they are unlikely to benefit in the way their parent generation did. Secondly a high tax economy will destroy them financially. Meanwhile we have the Catholic church imploding before our very eyes.
It may well be end up being more a generational battle as opposed to a class dependant one.

At the same time cant see a new party, it maybe a case of a reinvented FF possibly coming back after 1 or 2 terms? FG still does not give off the vibe as a reforming party and labour are still lost 1970's

might not be relevant, but it was interesting to see a social conservative booed of the stage at a conservative conference in the US.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFNezndrSII

Permabear · 22-03-2010 12:05PM

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