Liberalism

15-03-2010 11:11pm #1

Would any Irish parties be seen as or would like to be seen as liberal?
As far as I know there is no particularly liberal party and all would fall under some sort of conservative/socialist banner.

Has there ever been a liberal movement at all in the history of the state?

JJJJNR · 15-03-2010 11:14pm

Fine Gael would like to be seen as Liberal conservative.

Lockstep · 15-03-2010 11:49pm

The PDs were liberal.

dubfaction · 15-03-2010 11:57pm

they promoted economic liberalism but there it ends

15-03-2010 11:58pm

According to Wiki they were Conservative Liberal indeed. Any idea what kind of positions they held which reflected this ideal? (besides economic policies).

Also, I'm not sure if FG would really be Liberal Conservative as a whole. As far as I can see with a few minutes of searching they describe themselves as progressive centrist party. Maybe economically liberal though.

Lockstep · 16-03-2010 12:07am

IIRC, the PDs were liberal enough on issues like contraception and divorce.

dubfaction · 16-03-2010 12:18am

as long as you weren't foreign or poor the PD's were bastions of liberalism

Permabear · 16-03-2010 10:56am

This post has been deleted.

anymore · 16-03-2010 12:18pm

Happily the State run postal service was all too happy to deliver the condoms you had ordered from England throught the post !

:D

dubfaction · 16-03-2010 2:01pm

Examples of social radicalism?

You haven't mentioned anywhere an example of their social liberalism. Are we by implication to infer from your Life of Brian paragraph that the PD's brought about this utopia. Did the PD’s single-handedly take on the might of the Catholic Church-infected-state to liberalize divorce/homosexual/right to contraception laws at that time?? Did Mary Robinson, Ivana Bacik, David Norris and a host of others on the left not take part in those struggles??

The PD's were a party of elitists whose raison detre was the promotion and protection of big business which you allude to in your opening paragraph and whose laissez faire philosophy towards state intervention and deregulatory policies have gone a long way towards creating the mess we are in today. The 'rising tide floats all boats' notion that they propagated has proven to be a fallacy. Not only have relative poverty rates not decreased during the boom years they have increased substantially and now in the wreckage of the celtic tiger we will be experiencing the affects of their policies for years to come (and obviously I don’t mean that in the positive sense). You are correct that the two main parties did usurp their policies making them redundant- good that their gone, terrible that laisse faire individualism has become the norm.

Permabear · 16-03-2010 2:54pm

This post has been deleted.

ei.sdraob · 16-03-2010 3:27pm

imagines some postal worker making hole in them before repackaging

dubfaction · 16-03-2010 4:24pm

Congratulations you've managed to miss my point on all issues! Briefly and rather than getting into another round of you said, I said and for what its worth your claiming the PD's are socially as well as economically liberal. I'm asking you for a concrete example. You’ve given an example of their economic policy with regard to privatisation followed by a summary of the state of the country 20 years ago but you haven’t explained where the PD’s fit into this. I’ll happily get into the NAMA, social welfare debate with you in another thread but in fairness to the original question lets stick to the point.

Permabear · 16-03-2010 7:02pm

This post has been deleted.

View · 17-03-2010 1:57am

Believe it or not we do have a liberal party - that is, if you judge them by their self-declared affiliation at EU level. Would you believe it but our Liberals are in fact Fianna Fail!!!

They replaced the PDs as members of the ELDR, so I guess the PDs did leave a legacy.

That said, I'd personally say FF fall into the "economic liberal" side of the ELDR rather than the "social liberal" side.

Offhand, I'd also probably say that Labour could be loosely classed as falling under the "social liberalism" umbrella. They have the second highest socio-economic voter profile (Greens are highest) so I'd say they probably favour "a better society" rather than "the socialist working class" sort of stuff that Joe Higgins trots out all the time.

Ostrom · 17-03-2010 12:43pm

Interesting to see McDowell positioning himself in the Independent on sunday. I wonder if circumstances would favour a party reformation? He could have a reasonable platform for stronger liberal policies considering all that has happened (NAMA, public service etc) since his departure.

Permabear · 17-03-2010 12:58pm

This post has been deleted.

ei.sdraob · 17-03-2010 1:18pm

while I agree with above points

I would not vote for the PDs if McDowell was still with them

I have a personal hate for the guy

Permabear · 17-03-2010 2:19pm

This post has been deleted.

Ostrom · 17-03-2010 3:33pm

I would rather not see McDowell take a seat again - I couldn't agree with his justice policies (which imo were a significant setback). Why do you think organised liberalism is such a minority? I remember the young PD's being fairly active a few years back on uni campuses, and current popular discourse would suggest the general sentiment is present - all that seems to be missing is an organised programme for government.

Permabear · 17-03-2010 9:53pm

This post has been deleted.

Valmont · 17-03-2010 10:37pm

Spearheaded by you, I hope!

I'm surprised that even the Irish Times and the Irish Independent do not seem to have many articles at all coming from a liberal perspective. In fact, I opened the times up the other day to read a full page article on the state of politics in this country by Damien Rice:rolleyes: I don't know what to think.

Eliot Rosewater · 17-03-2010 11:48pm

There's probably a couple of hundred liberals in the same position waiting around for someone else to set the wheels in motion. DF may be right in attributing this to an innate individualism, but there's also the argument that liberals are meritocratic and proactive. A liberal movement is needed if only to voice a different point of view. Instead of asking how the government is doing something it would ask why the government is doing that something.

I figure that myself and Valmont have the same attitude on this. I think that if a proper liberal movement was founded we would both join it immediately. But both of us are stuck in this inertia. I sometimes think "what can I do about it?" What can we?

Permabear · 18-03-2010 10:17am

This post has been deleted.

Eliot Rosewater · 18-03-2010 4:30pm

Setting up a liberal grouping within Fine Gael could be both a good thing and a bad thing. It has the potential to bear fruition. As you rightly point out, a candidate generally has to be from a well-established party to be elected. I don't think this tendency of the electorate to have cold-feet will end soon. So a liberal grouping could influence the bigger party as a whole and have policy implemented.

On the other hand, the party might ignore the grouping due to a cultural populism (that is, insulting as few people as possible in order to maximize the vote). All the efforts of the group may be in vain. Also, being within a broader party may dilute the small group as members tend towards the political centre (turning and turning in the shortening gyre, as it were

).

An independent group or political party would be the best option for ensuring the movement sticks to its liberal values, even at the certain risk of electoral misfortune. But then, the least you can do is try.

The most pressing issue is how to start off. Where does one begin in bringing Ireland's liberals together and organizing them into a single movement?

ChocolateSauce · 19-03-2010 4:35pm

For me one problem with standing up with a liberal party is the nature of their social/economic divide. The PD's were economically liberal but socially convervative, and no matter what I think of their economics I won't stand up and join a socially conservative party. In a similar vein, a party which was socially liberal but very left-wing (socialists left wing, not labour left-wing) wouldn't appeal to me either.

The UK's Lib Dems is the only major party in the English speaking world which I would say fits most of my views, but they might be just a little too statist for you, especially when it comes to the EU.

To use a political analogy, although I imagine you and I could form coalitions and agree on many things, I don't think we'd be quite comfortable in the same party, and this problem extends to many liberals in Ireland and beyond, which is a weakness in the overall movement because unity = strength, for better or for worse.

Pragmatically, I would say the best answer is to have a "centre-liberal" party which would attempt to capture the greatest number of votes. Although it probably wouldn't satisfy many people, it might be the only way to move in that direction.

There is liberals.ie, but the site doesn't offer much (The_Minister might know more...) so far.

Permabear · 19-03-2010 5:44pm

This post has been deleted.

Eliot Rosewater · 19-03-2010 9:05pm

Even though I'm a libertarian more so than a liberal, I think I would prefer a new party to be a little less extreme than myself and donegalfella. I think you have to strike a balance between idealogical absolutism and a policy base that will actually attract a significant amount og members. I would envisage a new party to be at least palatable to anyone who desires a rationalized or smaller government, not just those who advocate its shrinking to a relatively minuscule level.

Liberals.ie was initially promising, even if it was based on an Americanized use of the term liberal. However a year has passed and the website hasn't changed, and my investigations into the group have all been in vain.

As I said above, the exact economic stance of a new movement might involve a little compromise on the part of extreme economic Right-wingers like you and me, but in terms of social issues I think its position would be more clear-cut. I would imagine it would advocate reducing restrictions on things like abortion, soft drugs and prostitution, as well as promoting equality for same-sex couples.

I wasn't involved in the PD's myself. By the time I came of political age I viewed them as little more than an extension of FF. As a result I'm unaware of the organizational structures they had, and how easy it would be to unearth them. It is a promising lead though.

An interesting question and one that is extremely important to the long-term credibility of a future party. I suppose the constitution of the party could impose limits on what the party promotes, and provide a basis for its official policies. It could also include a ban on using certain populist words while canvassing!!

Ostrom · 19-03-2010 11:09pm

It may not be a question of unearthing - the political landscape, and social and economic context have changed completely from when McDowell-Harney et.al last stood.

As DF said, social conservatism is unlikely to draw support - welfare reform less so - but popular sentiment seems to be hitting at important core issues; people are aware (and I hope I'm not coming off condescending) in a general sense of the implications of issues such as public debt servicing (and its left-center debated alternatives), but this is rarely challenged or even interpreted in the public domain in terms of liberal philosophy/practice.

This could be an ideal opportunity?

silverharp · 19-03-2010 11:55pm

My own thoughs are that 20 and 30 somethings will notice 2 things, the "social contact" will be viewed as a ponzi scheme from their point of view as they are unlikely to benefit in the way their parent generation did. Secondly a high tax economy will destroy them financially. Meanwhile we have the Catholic church imploding before our very eyes.
It may well be end up being more a generational battle as opposed to a class dependant one.

At the same time cant see a new party, it maybe a case of a reinvented FF possibly coming back after 1 or 2 terms? FG still does not give off the vibe as a reforming party and labour are still lost 1970's

might not be relevant, but it was interesting to see a social conservative booed of the stage at a conservative conference in the US.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFNezndrSII

Permabear · 22-03-2010 11:05am

This post has been deleted.

ei.sdraob · 22-03-2010 11:31am

thats a very good point there

alot of people are not interested in politics and economic decisions made by politicians (and their repercussions)

as they are not an active contributing stakeholders in the system (yes i know there are indirect taxes, but people dont realize where the money from things like VAT goes)

people would demand much more of the government if its their hard earned money being pissed away (that's why i got interested in politics/economics)

right now FF have created a state where about 1 million people are paying taxes to support another 3.5 million people, and the people who dont have to pay for anything and get the benefits are quite happy with their position

simplistic2 · 22-03-2010 3:06pm

There seems to be huge demand for more individual freedom as the supply is tightening and will continue to tighten.

There are quite a few libertarian movements beginning to pop up. The Irish libertarian site just went live there yesterday.http://irishlibertyforum.org/

There is a few groups on facebook

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=103797317995&ref=mf&v=info#!/group.php?gid=125545383377

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=103797317995&ref=mf&v=info#!/group.php?gid=2590032745

And a group I helped found a year ago that is very anti - government and pro - freedom. We now have about 1000 members.

http://freemanireland.ning.com/

I personally dont think that a free society can be achieved through politics as the whole history of government has shown that the system itself is only designed to grow and then to collapse regardless of who gets into power.I also dont think that any libertarian is immune to the corrupting power of the system.

But is there any better way to spread libertarian ideas in public? Where did you guys get your information from? Was it from a Ron Paul campaign or your own interest in political theory?

Id be more inclined to go down the freestateproject.org road for Ireland .Get 5,000 people to Galway and then ask " taxes?? what taxes?"
Probably wont see that in my life time though.

I think you guys should definitely go for it the least that can happen is youll help make the world a better place.

Permabear · 22-03-2010 5:49pm

This post has been deleted.

Eliot Rosewater · 23-03-2010 12:06am

You learn a lot online

I wasn't attracted to libertarian views because of some philosophical desire for liberty. Rather I saw that libertarian views produced the most desirable results on the ground, particularity in the social sphere. I think you have to have an open mind. It took a sizable change in my personality to go from "ban all drugs!" to "I don't do drugs, but I'm not going to interfere".

The libertarian attitude seems to conflict to a large degree with the normal human attitude that sees no problem coercing one opinions over unwilling neighbours because you feel its right.

Well you seem to be set up better with colleagues in the real world. The main obstacle is translating this potentially successful idea of starting a Liberal Party from an Internet forum to reality. Its a large step involving setting up a network of contacts. Yet even if you only got 5 or 10 people co-ordinated per University you could start from there.

I think its particularly important to get the message right. People often misinterpret the liberal view point. They think you're "only for big business"; that you "hate the poor"; that you are "forcing an open society on everyone". But, in my opinion, its not about forcing anything, its merely about giving people choice.

simplistic2 · 25-03-2010 3:56pm

Yeah I think people over here havent really suffered that much to begin protesting but over the next few years that will change dramatically when people on welfare get the chop and cant go to sunny Spain for 2 weeks.

I dont know of any evidence that shows that protesting actually every improves a situation. It generally means that the Gov is just going to have bribe the protesters by taking out loans against their children.

Very true more pizzazz is needed. I dont think politics is pizzazz though and it is very unlikely to appeal to the target market of young people. I think that politics is not essential and even contradictory in attempting to achieve a free society.

Havent a clue but it would be worth while finding out why the group never got off the ground.

I have a few problems with this approach maybe you can help clear them up for me though.

As far as Im aware all states grow relative to the productivity of the citizens. Meaning that regardless of the constitution or who is in government if the citizens are engaging in an almost free market like early US then they will be incredibly productive. Since the Government have the monopoly of force they will not want to miss out on a piece of the pie and will grow in size by the amount of tax generated. The constitution means nothing as you can see in the US.

I think also the system of government only concentrates on the short term maximization of power. As we see most of the population and different interest groups being bribed for votes every couple of years. Bribe the poor with welfare , and Nama is just ransom money being paid to the banks so FF can weather the storm for the moment and avoid being hauled out of the Dail an shot.
Since a libertarian state is a long term goal how is it possible that this can be achieved in a short term system of bribery?

Even if libertarians got into power by that stage it would be evident that a large enough portion of the population would be libertarian and could abandon the state anyway.i.e. not paying tax, using private currency and contract reputation services.

What are your thoughts on this?

I think the main problem is that people have a massive problem envisioning "how in the hell" society without government could work. I took me weeks to of reading to fully understand all the concepts. I dont know if you have see that movie Zeitgeist? Its pretty much promoting some insane techno-communism but it has a massive following all over the world and the film itself was made on a shoe string. The reason for the massive following is because they had some nice drawings of how the society could work.

So if I was ever to do anything I would go down the media route and have animations of how a free society could work so 20-30 market will stay interested. Its like somebody could talk all day about this wonderful new house they are going to build but the listeners will get board until you pull out the architects designs. Then Bam you have a bucket full of self-interested individuals all arguing for freedom and its the people on the ground arguing for freedom that will have the greatest effect.

Yeah I think there is only one libertarian philosopher in the country lecturing in UCD.

It doesnt have to happen all at once. Once it becomes economically impossible for the government to keep control of citizens the game is up. There are 15,000 Gardai in the country and the prisons are at maximum capacity. It would not take more than 10,000 people engaging in peaceful non-compliance to see the end of the government. Lets not get ahead of ourselves though this is a 100 or so years down the road.

Permabear · 31-03-2010 10:38am

This post has been deleted.

ANarcho-Munk · 01-04-2010 3:44am

*Glances at the utter demise of the PD's*

hmmmmm....

ei.sdraob · 01-04-2010 5:26pm

its quite likely people would with-hold taxes by evading them altogether

but really if few thousand people decide to say "frack that" and ignore Revenue letters, what can the government do? throw them all in prison? we dont even have that many places

cypharius · 11-04-2010 1:01pm

I think that in general Irish politics is too centralist to define any party as simply Liberal or Conservitive. Fine Gael are economicly Liberal, but other then Labour who are socialy Liberal up to a certain extent, I don't think there are any mainstream Socialy Liberal Irish Parties.

I can't see any TD's seriously pushing for Gay Marriage, or Legalising Cannabis, or Legalising Prostitution, or Legalising Firearms, etc.

simplistic2 · 16-04-2010 4:26pm

Ah but it will change and it will the greatest good that this planet has ever seen. The reason we will eventually see a libertarian society is because logical moral arguments tend win in the long run. Like ending slavery and womens rights. Once people rid the propaganda of the social contract from their heads
and rationally conclude that taxation is theft the state is finished.

The internet is going to do this because information is not confined to state run schools anymore and brains can breathe. The internet is MR. Decentralisation himself!

Halfway through it now and loving the simple solution " Government!? leave it to the market"

Gerard Casey , he spoke at a mises conference there...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoQ6vQf3X6Q

http://www.ucd.ie/philosophy/staff/gerardcasey/

Not yet but there will be Im in my 20s but I hope to be taking part in something like that in my 50s or so...what a strange life goal.:D

Ostrom · 19-04-2010 5:13pm

On a slightly related thought...

Are there any semi-mainstream liberal publications in the vein of socialist register, monthly review etc, or even a liberal equivalent of science and society?

Denerick · 19-04-2010 7:45pm

Do you lot really think the world will turn Libertarian? The reality is that most people have an instinctive reaction to looking for the government to provide the answers. People like their social safety nets. Law of the jungle economics...

Permabear · 19-04-2010 8:10pm

This post has been deleted.

ei.sdraob · 19-04-2010 8:36pm

You might have to wait until we can get out of this world

its a big universe out there

im sure all sorts of "systems" will end up being tried then

especially when your nearest neighbours are a long way away

Eliot Rosewater · 19-04-2010 9:05pm

I've the same attitude towards promoting libertarianism as I do towards arguing for third level fees. I know I won't convince many (if any) students that fees should be brought in. But I can at least provide an alternative voice and challenge the set-in-stone assumptions upon which they base their views. Make them at least think twice before preaching the truths that they hold absolute.

I'm certainly not as optimistic as donegalfella in thinking some kind of libertarian state will come about. It's all down the tubes of big government from here!

Macha · 19-04-2010 9:11pm

Where in the world would you consider there to be the closest thing to a libertarian state today, or in the recent past?

Sergeant · 19-04-2010 9:29pm

While I can't see Ireland becoming a hotbed of Randian objectivism, I do think there is a potentially large body of people who will come to reject the bloated excesses of the welfare state, and big government.

Nama, the public service protests, inefficient semi-state bodies, the quangos who reel out useless publications; the moral clarity of an educated people will reject such inefficiencies.

How that pans out in terms of a political grouping depends on many factors, the media, the economy, an end to civil war politics.

Permabear · 20-04-2010 10:19am

This post has been deleted.

Denerick · 20-04-2010 11:09am

I always find it funny when Libertarians extoll the virtues of Thomas Jefferson (A slave owner who hated slavery

) It kinda gets to the heart of the contradiction both in American history and the libertarian ideal - its just that, an ideal, its never been considered practical.

Macha · 20-04-2010 11:14am

I'm guessing you mean the North not the South? And how about today?

Also, what you would see as the best level of government to exist? Zero?

Liberalism

Comments