Negative attitudes toward domestic wrestling events?

RAMPAGE1

Ireland2010 wrote: »

No problem lads. No offence taken. It is in the corrib and cashel suite of the Glenroyal Hotel. Please feel free to call me whenever you want on 086 3346732.

A history of my promotional work include Liverpool legends V Manchester United legends. I have done 2 previous conventions of this kind. One on the continent and one in the US in 2008. I also manage 3 time World darts champion John Part, along with Terry Jenkins and Ronnie Baxter for all darts fans. see link http://archives.tcm.ie/waterfordnews/2008/02/15/story27915.asp .I am also a repesentitive for some of the UK's soap stars from Corrie and Eastendes.

Also if you would like to see crowds I have managed with my promotions please checkout http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7f-l57Hq9o AND http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cotS7tOx5w. That is me on the MC.I don't know who put this on youtube but check it out.

I also represent David Bishop of Sale Sharks and Andrew Bishop from Wales and the Ospreys in Rugby Union.

You missed the point of the HTM post. Of course I know his name. Read the posts again:). But please feel free to call me on the above number.

Alan I wouldn't get bogged down on here about this as most people on here rarely attend wrestling events in this country except WWE Shows and you can see this by the general attitude. I'll be attending the event and best of luck with it I hope its a huge success.

Gerard.C

RAMPAGE1 wrote: »

Alan I wouldn't get bogged down on here about this as most people on here rarely attend wrestling events in this country except WWE Shows and you can see this by the general attitude. I'll be attending the event and best of luck with it I hope its a huge success.

What do you mean by "the general attitude"?... That's a very broad statement

RAMPAGE1

Gerard.C wrote: »

What do you mean by "the general attitude"?... That's a very broad statement

Well broaden it further and run a poll on here and see how many people on here in the last year have attended a non WWE/TNA event and go back and look at initial posts on here from people when an event is announced most people on here seem up for going but based on attendance figures never show up and as Cannibal has stated in previous posts look at the state of the Irish wrestling scene when Irish wrestlers are currently at their most successful eg Fergal devitt and Sheamus

waltersobchak

RAMPAGE1 wrote: »

Well broaden it further and run a poll on here and see how many people on here in the last year have attended a non WWE/TNA event and go back and look at initial posts on here from people when an event is announced most people on here seem up for going but based on attendance figures never show up and as Cannibal has stated in previous posts look at the state of the Irish wrestling scene when Irish wrestlers are currently at their most successful eg Fergal devitt and Sheamus

Whats the point in running a poll on here about that? honestly what has that got to do with this event?

Gerard.C

RAMPAGE1 wrote: »

Well broaden it further and run a poll on here and see how many people on here in the last year have attended a non WWE/TNA event and go back and look at initial posts on here from people when an event is announced most people on here seem up for going but based on attendance figures never show up and as Cannibal has stated in previous posts look at the state of the Irish wrestling scene when Irish wrestlers are currently at their most successful eg Fergal devitt and Sheamus

What events have there been? FFPW only does shows in their gym unfortunately,I'm sure many people here would like to go to one, myself included, but its just not possible. IwW has killed off most of its internet fanbase, and quite frankly I wouldnt go across the road to see them anymore. Most people on here were at an AWR show, due to them touring and making it more pratical for people to get to the shows.

So again I ask you, what is the "general attitude" that you are refering to? The way you worded your statement made it seem like nobody on here wants to support Irish Wrestling. It's all well and good to be living in Dublin, and hop on the 21a for half an hour or whatever. It's a different story having to travel up to Dublin for a show

RAMPAGE1

waltersobchak wrote: »

Whats the pont in running a poll on here about that? honestly what has that got to do with this event?

Because here's a guy Alan who's running a wrestlefest type event and instead of people getting behind it the usual repsonse on here is to run it down and then the guy is getting questioned about his background as if he has to bother supplying proof of his credentials to people who probably won't go the poll would demonstrate the level of interest on here at the moment to these type of events hence the reason I suggested it so Alan wouldn't be wasting his time on here trying to drive the event home

gimmick

To be fair, I think I was the only one who said it was a bad idea etc. Apart from that, I think it has been received very warmly.

waltersobchak

RAMPAGE1 wrote: »

Because here's a guy Alan who's running a wrestlefest type event and instead of people getting behind it the usual repsonse on here is to run it down and then the guy is getting questioned about his background as if he has to bother supplying proof of his credentials to people who probably won't go the poll would demonstrate the level of interest on here at the moment to these type of events hence the reason I suggested it so Alan wouldn't be wasting his time on here trying to drive the event home

So your saying it's wrong for people to ask a guy who has never promoted a wrestling event, what he's done before? Maybe some of the cowboys who run show's here have left fans reasons to be sceptical.

Gerard.C

RAMPAGE1 wrote: »

Because here's a guy Alan who's running a wrestlefest type event and instead of people getting behind it the usual repsonse on here is to run it down and then the guy is getting questioned about his background as if he has to bother supplying proof of his credentials to people who probably won't go the poll would demonstrate the level of interest on here at the moment to these type of events hence the reason I suggested it so Alan wouldn't be wasting his time on here trying to drive the event home

Yeah, a newly registered user called "Alan" springs up out of nowhere and says he has Mick Foley and the Million Dollar Man booked for a two day fan fest in Kildare, with no proof whatsoever.

Are you serious? You wouldnt be anyway suspicious, given the nature of the wrestling buisness? I'm sure more people would "get behind him" if there was any bit of proof whatever. There isnt, as of yet. I've said I didnt mean to offend him, which he accepted. If it turns out that this is genuine, there will be much more interest, I bet you that much.

And for the record, I probably will go if this happens.

RAMPAGE1

Gerard.C wrote: »

What events have there been? FFPW only does shows in their gym unfortunately,I'm sure many people here would like to go to one, myself included, but its just not possible. IwW has killed off most of its internet fanbase, and quite frankly I wouldnt go across the road to see them anymore. Most people on here were at an AWR show, due to them touring and making it more pratical for people to get to the shows.

So again I ask you, what is the "general attitude" that you are refering to? The way you worded your statement made it seem like nobody on here wants to support Irish Wrestling. It's all well and good to be living in Dublin, and hop on the 21a for half an hour or whatever. It's a different story having to travel up to Dublin for a show

My opinion is that the wrestling forum has become very negative over the last year and not negative in a good way. I find that no matter what people in this country try to do in relation to wrestling its put down straight away either locations are not good enough or line ups are poor or pricing is wrong or transport is impossible or the great word recession. I used to go to all the IWW Gym Wars back in the day and had a great time at them and it took me 2 hours to get to them. I also attend FFPW Shows, NLW Shows, CPW and Rampage shows and the fact that much of it doesn't happen anymore is a pity and I think that wrestling fans in Ireland have the ability to make it better again by just supporting it a little bit better and making sure that these companies keep going as its all we got outside of WWE which is barely watchable at the moment.

Gerard.C

RAMPAGE1 wrote: »

My opinion is that the wrestling forum has become very negative over the last year and not negative in a good way. I find that no matter what people in this country try to do in relation to wrestling its put down straight away either locations are not good enough or line ups are poor or pricing is wrong or transport is impossible or the great word recession. I used to go to all the IWW Gym Wars back in the day and had a great time at them and it took me 2 hours to get to them. I also attend FFPW Shows, NLW Shows, CPW and Rampage shows and the fact that much of it doesn't happen anymore is a pity and I think that wrestling fans in Ireland have the ability to make it better again by just supporting it a little bit better and making sure that these companies keep going as its all we got outside of WWE which is barely watchable at the moment.

There is only negativity towards certain aspects of Irish Wrestling. AWR and FFPW are ALWAYS well received on here. If FFPW toured, a lot of people from on here would go. They seem to be happy doing their Friends and Family shows, more power to them if its going well for them. I'd love to support them, but its just not that easy. I'm sure its the same for other people. Please dont be making this forum out to be negative towards Irish Wrestling, as it is anything but.

RAMPAGE1

Gerard.C wrote: »

Yeah, a newly registered user called "Alan" springs up out of nowhere and says he has Mick Foley and the Million Dollar Man booked for a two day fan fest in Kildare, with no proof whatsoever.

Are you serious? You wouldnt be anyway suspicious, given the nature of the wrestling buisness? I'm sure more people would "get behind him" if there was any bit of proof whatever. There isnt, as of yet. I've said I didnt mean to offend him, which he accepted. If it turns out that this is genuine, there will be much more interest, I bet you that much.

And for the record, I probably will go if this happens.

These kind of events aren't so much about who you are as opposed to how much your willing to pay. I'm not aiming any of this at you personally as like myself we've both probably attended some amount of crap over the years and still smiled and enjoyed it. I just think we all need to pull together to make it better

Ireland2010

waltersobchak wrote: »

So your saying it's wrong for people to ask a guy who has never promoted a wrestling event, what he's done before? Maybe some of the cowboys who run show's here have left fans reasons to be sceptical.

Thanks Walter,

I have done these before but just not in Ireland as I stated in previous posts but I don't mind anyone asking any questions whatsoever. Ireland has cried out for something this and I hope when the site is launched next week the recorded communication some some of the superstars on it will be enough proof for you.

Hotel is sorted, lineup is sorted,travel is sorted website is nearly sorted. The idea of my OP going out when it did was to see would the event get noticed so if a poll is on the table I would love to hear peoples views albeit a "yes" or a "no" on the event I would appreciate it. It is not going to make a difference to it. This event called Wrestlezone Ireland is going a head 200% and I would love for all the wresrtling fans from today and years gone by to come and meet their icons.

And as I say any questions just get me on 086 3346732.
Many thanks,
Alan.

gimmick

RAMPAGE1 wrote: »

My opinion is that the wrestling forum has become very negative over the last year and not negative in a good way.

I find this bit quite odd. The Irish Promotions sticky has been more positive now than what it probably ever has been. There is no bannings, sniping or anything happening there. Credit generally seems to be given where it is due.

There have been a few new promotions advertising here, and people have seemed to be genuinely interested in them, while at the same time asking questions of them, but not sniping at them like what used happen here 3/4 years ago.

I would certainly love to be able to travel up to Dublin and the surrounding areas for every show I would like to go to, but between work and my personal life, doing such is just not an option. If that makes me negative or whatever, then so be it.

gimmick

Again, I do not think there is a lack of interest. I would love to see an NLW show, but Sunday evenings in Kildare make it very difficult to get to from Cork.

Gerard.C

gimmick wrote: »

I find this bit quite odd. The Irish Promotions sticky has been more positive now than what it probably ever has been. There is no bannings, sniping or anything happening there. Credit generally seems to be given where it is due.

There have been a few new promotions advertising here, and people have seemed to be genuinely interested in them, while at the same time asking questions of them, but not sniping at them like what used happen here 3/4 years ago.

I would certainly love to be able to travel up to Dublin and the surrounding areas for every show I would like to go to, but between work and my personal life, doing such is just not an option. If that makes me negative or whatever, then so be it.

Exactly. Where is all this negative attitude malarky coming from? In fairness, not to be rising certain people, but the majority of the negativity on here is towards IwW.

It's usually just not an option to attend these shows, as much as I would like to go and support some of the talent. For example, at the AWR show in Cork, I was more impressed by the Irish lads than anyone else. I'd love to see them showcased more often, but trying to get to Kildare on a Sunday evening, as gimmick said, is not an option due to many reasons.

nlw_coleman

I don't think anyone could safely say there isn't a lack of interest. The clearly is but I'm not gonna get into a war of words over it. I personally believe there once was a certain buzz regarding the Irish scene but its gone now. Im sure that has something to do with the product of some smaller shows not being as good over recent years but I think almost everyone involved in promoting shows is now trying damn hard to turn things back around.

Of course someone from Cork isn't gonna travel to Kildare to see a show. I'm not suggesting anyone should do that. But if you live around Kildare and surrounding areas like Dublin or Laois etc., then a quick commute and a €12 ticket isn't gonna hurt too bad. And everyone here likes wrestling and I assure you you'll get a good wrestling show for your ticket price.

I do want to know what people on here would look for and what would make them attend a show featuring Irish talent. Gimmick matches, women's matches...you tell me! It's always good to get feedback.

Unfortunately though, it seems no posters from boards attended the NLW show in January to give feedback on that that particular show. There was no mention of it. We had a Ladder Match, a No Holds Barred Match and we did feature the top local talent. Im not looking for everyone to post their individual reasons for not going, nobody is obliged. But if people want a fresh scene then those people should really support projects like NLW. I personally travelled to Athlone for the Emerald Promotions show last month, payed the entrance fee and travelled home that evening. Why? Because I was interested to see what was on offer and I like wrestling shows.

I don't think we at NLW have offered a more solid show than we did back on January 24th in Naas since perhaps our first few shows in 2006. It did have a certain 'fresh start' feel to it, everyone worked their asses off and from a fan standpoint, I must admit I 'marked out' for the wrestling in the Main Event between Paddy Morrow and Dunkie D. Luckily the Moat Theatre did sell out that evening but it's unfortunate that all posters here seem to have missed out on the show. I do hope people give the smaller shows on the Irish scene a chance this year.

geeky

nlw_coleman wrote: »

I don't think anyone could safely say there isn't a lack of interest. The clearly is but I'm not gonna get into a war of words over it. I personally believe there once was a certain buzz regarding the Irish scene but its gone now. Im sure that has something to do with the product of some smaller shows not being as good over recent years but I think almost everyone involved in promoting shows is now trying damn hard to turn things back around.

Of course someone from Cork isn't gonna travel to Kildare to see a show. I'm not suggesting anyone should do that. But if you live around Kildare and surrounding areas like Dublin or Laois etc., then a quick commute and a €12 ticket isn't gonna hurt too bad. And everyone here likes wrestling and I assure you you'll get a good wrestling show for your ticket price.

I do want to know what people on here would look for and what would make them attend a show featuring Irish talent. Gimmick matches, women's matches...you tell me! It's always good to get feedback.

Unfortunately though, it seems no posters from boards attended the NLW show in January to give feedback on that that particular show. There was no mention of it. We had a Ladder Match, a No Holds Barred Match and we did feature the top local talent. Im not looking for everyone to post their individual reasons for not going, nobody is obliged. But if people want a fresh scene then those people should really support projects like NLW. I personally travelled to Athlone for the Emerald Promotions show last month, payed the entrance fee and travelled home that evening. Why? Because I was interested to see what was on offer and I like wrestling shows.

I don't think we at NLW have offered a more solid show than we did back on January 24th in Naas since perhaps our first few shows in 2006. It did have a certain 'fresh start' feel to it, everyone worked their asses off and from a fan standpoint, I must admit I 'marked out' for the wrestling in the Main Event between Paddy Morrow and Dunkie D. Luckily the Moat Theatre did sell out that evening but it's unfortunate that all posters here seem to have missed out on the show. I do hope people give the smaller shows on the Irish scene a chance this year.

Unfortunately I've no excuse other than time (if it helps, there was a huge job I had to do which I'm banking on for funding the trip to the next show). It looked really good, and I'm looking forward to seeing this next one.

As for actual feedback - without seeing your company's specific product, I think the names on the top of the card are as good as anyone on the scene right now. So fair play. I also like the idea of one or two special matches - no more than that, though. Women's matches to me are an absolute no-no. I like the idea of a bit of storytelling inside the shows too, though this is obviously dependent on the execution. Dunkan D works great as a heel, and I really can't wait for the next show.

Gerard.C

nlw_coleman wrote: »

I don't think anyone could safely say there isn't a lack of interest. The clearly is but I'm not gonna get into a war of words over it. I personally believe there once was a certain buzz regarding the Irish scene but its gone now. Im sure that has something to do with the product of some smaller shows not being as good over recent years but I think almost everyone involved in promoting shows is now trying damn hard to turn things back around.

Of course someone from Cork isn't gonna travel to Kildare to see a show. I'm not suggesting anyone should do that. But if you live around Kildare and surrounding areas like Dublin or Laois etc., then a quick commute and a €12 ticket isn't gonna hurt too bad. And everyone here likes wrestling and I assure you you'll get a good wrestling show for your ticket price.

I do want to know what people on here would look for and what would make them attend a show featuring Irish talent. Gimmick matches, women's matches...you tell me! It's always good to get feedback.

Unfortunately though, it seems no posters from boards attended the NLW show in January to give feedback on that that particular show. There was no mention of it. We had a Ladder Match, a No Holds Barred Match and we did feature the top local talent. Im not looking for everyone to post their individual reasons for not going, nobody is obliged. But if people want a fresh scene then those people should really support projects like NLW. I personally travelled to Athlone for the Emerald Promotions show last month, payed the entrance fee and travelled home that evening. Why? Because I was interested to see what was on offer and I like wrestling shows.

I don't think we at NLW have offered a more solid show than we did back on January 24th in Naas since perhaps our first few shows in 2006. It did have a certain 'fresh start' feel to it, everyone worked their asses off and from a fan standpoint, I must admit I 'marked out' for the wrestling in the Main Event between Paddy Morrow and Dunkie D. Luckily the Moat Theatre did sell out that evening but it's unfortunate that all posters here seem to have missed out on the show. I do hope people give the smaller shows on the Irish scene a chance this year.

Is it fair to say that this buzz was around when IwW was at its prime several years ago, touring the country and holding supershows in Dublin then?

nlw_coleman

Thanks geeky, appreciate the response. We do storytelling in our shows too. Although it can be difficult unless we're running the same venue each month. But we will be continuing feuds etc. from our January show but it will all make sense even if you haven't attended the first one. Again, thanks for the feedback.

The Cannibal

I think most of the boarders are Dublin based with a percentage out in Cork and other further out places. Most shows seem to be run up north or in between where the boarders are based. Promoters are now favouring smaller counties where wrestling is seen as a novelty attraction. While it is good for short term business to promote like that, the long term buzz isn't good because those counties don't talk about it and no one outside of them sees the show. There is no DVD distribution, no online shows, promo's etc. Everything is self contained to small county shows and nothing follows on.

When there was a buzz about Irish wrestling, you had at LEAST 2 Dublin shows per month and the occasional show out in Cork or near by for the people on the other side of the country. There was a large group of online fans that talked about it, before everyone decided it wasn't cool to encourage internet fans for whatever reason and the talk slowly went away and the shows drifted into middle of nowhere locations.

I live in the biggest city in Ireland with the best public transport in the country and the most choice for venues. Yet I can not remember the last time I could get to a show with 1 bus or train. The last show I made an effort to take more than one bus to was canceled after I got there.

But say you convince everyone in Dublin to travel out of their comfort zone for one show. Say the moat theatre is packed with nothing but Dubliners, what is in it for them long term? Will they get a show closer to home or will they have to travel every single time they want to see a show? You've stated the moat theatre as your NLW arena, so to follow NLW I will have to constantly travel. Running the moat is good because it is usually always a sell out, but I don't think it's fair to criticise out of county people for not attending these shows when they are not rewarded for it other than with the show itself. You can probably get people out for one show if you really want to, but they are not going to come on a consistent basis if they keep having to travel for it.

Past that, the shows are just too isolated and one off. I know they'll probably be good, but if you have seen one indy show these days you've seen them all because someone wrote up a format years ago on how to book an indy show for audiences that have never seen the product before and everyone copies from that sheet. The shows are great for first timers and kids but to anyone who has attended a half dozen shows or more it becomes the same old repetitive stuff, even if the card delivers solid matches up and down.

What would get me supporting on a hardcore fan basis that attends any show I can possibly get to would be for an indy promotion here to be more like numerous ones in America. I don't live in the US but if I really wanted to I could easily follow what's going on in PWG, Chikara or many other small promotions that run over there. It can be done, just everyone here focuses on completely different priorities.

More gimmick matches and stuff like that are only stunts that give short term boosts. If you give a gimmick match every show then it becomes as repetitive as everything else on the show. They should only really be used for the biggest of matches with two guys who hate each other.

nlw_coleman

The Cannibal wrote: »

I think most of the boarders are Dublin based with a percentage out in Cork and other further out places. Most shows seem to be run up north or in between where the boarders are based. Promoters are now favouring smaller counties where wrestling is seen as a novelty attraction. While it is good for short term business to promote like that, the long term buzz isn't good because those counties don't talk about it and no one outside of them sees the show. There is no DVD distribution, no online shows, promo's etc. Everything is self contained to small county shows and nothing follows on.

When there was a buzz about Irish wrestling, you had at LEAST 2 Dublin shows per month and the occasional show out in Cork or near by for the people on the other side of the country. There was a large group of online fans that talked about it, before everyone decided it wasn't cool to encourage internet fans for whatever reason and the talk slowly went away and the shows drifted into middle of nowhere locations.

I live in the biggest city in Ireland with the best public transport in the country and the most choice for venues. Yet I can not remember the last time I could get to a show with 1 bus or train. The last show I made an effort to take more than one bus to was canceled after I got there.

But say you convince everyone in Dublin to travel out of their comfort zone for one show. Say the moat theatre is packed with nothing but Dubliners, what is in it for them long term? Will they get a show closer to home or will they have to travel every single time they want to see a show? You've stated the moat theatre as your NLW arena, so to follow NLW I will have to constantly travel. Running the moat is good because it is usually always a sell out, but I don't think it's fair to criticise out of county people for not attending these shows when they are not rewarded for it other than with the show itself. You can probably get people out for one show if you really want to, but they are not going to come on a consistent basis if they keep having to travel for it.

Past that, the shows are just too isolated and one off. I know they'll probably be good, but if you have seen one indy show these days you've seen them all because someone wrote up a format years ago on how to book an indy show for audiences that have never seen the product before and everyone copies from that sheet. The shows are great for first timers and kids but to anyone who has attended a half dozen shows or more it becomes the same old repetitive stuff, even if the card delivers solid matches up and down.

What would get me supporting on a hardcore fan basis that attends any show I can possibly get to would be for an indy promotion here to be more like numerous ones in America. I don't live in the US but if I really wanted to I could easily follow what's going on in PWG, Chikara or many other small promotions that run over there. It can be done, just everyone here focuses on completely different priorities.

More gimmick matches and stuff like that are only stunts that give short term boosts. If you give a gimmick match every show then it becomes as repetitive as everything else on the show. They should only really be used for the biggest of matches with two guys who hate each other.

I enjoyed reading your response Cannibal and its great that already two people have shared their honest opinions without being bitchy ! Makes a nice change to alot of threads in this forum

Just to respond, we do intend on running shows in other parts of the country in particular in Dublin, hopefully sooner rather than later. It can be difficult to run often in the capital though because WWE offer so many shows and last year TNA aswell.

Your point is a good one regarding a lack of info about on-going storylines etc. in smaller promotions. I do intend on having some kind of a site in the coming weeks.

As for all indy shows being 'the same old thing', wrestling is wrestling at the end of the day. You look at any wrestling show, anywhere, there's an opening match, there's a main event and all the stuff in between. Would u care to go into more detail about what you mean exactly? I'd be interested to hear more about this.

I never would suggest anybody upset themselves by trying to commute to a show. But if you're someone that complains about a lack of a scene and a show presents itself within a reasonable distance, and if you've nothing more important on, then attend it, and if you hated it, then complain.

What i mean about nobody attending the January NLW show from boards is this: Basically in the weeks leading up to the show, there was some (not alot) talk from people stating they would like to go, they would go etc. But I didn't notice one single post about the show from anyone who attended. Not everyone lives in Dublin. There are people who live in kildare that post here. And even if you are from Dublin, Naas isn't far to be fair. I would never suggest someone from Cork travel to Kildare for a show, unless THEY really really want to. But I would have loved to see some feedback from posters here on the show.

leggo

Not directed at anyone in particular but just to chime in: consumers should NEVER be held accountable for lack of interest. What's the phrase? If you build it, they will come.

The onus is on the promoters to make the show irresistible and unmissable to pack the punters in. Could you imagine McDonalds ran an advertising campaign blaming the public for not trying their new burger? Or fans of McDonalds' new burger started running down others who just didn't like the look/taste of it after it was discontinued due to lack of sales? It makes no sense.

It's simple and doesn't need a massive dissection: if promoters put on a show that's good enough, punters will make it their business to see it. If one can't make it due to work, travel etc...it shouldn't matter because it'll be such a good card that 15 others will come in their place. People can BS...the numbers never lie.

THAT SAID, marketing a product towards the likes of this forum is a recipe for disaster. Always has been. The internet is a useful marketing tool, nowadays, because almost everyone is on it and it's cheap. The die-hard's are notoriously unreliable though. They've seen it all before so missing one smaller show isn't a big deal. Plus the very fact that they sit behind their PC's and play expert instead of actually getting out and BECOMING an expert says it all there (not a dig at anyone, again, just a fact of life).

You market to the masses and the die-hard's will follow along if you've done a good enough job.

Bubs101

I'll be honest. I'm probably never going to go to a wrestling event in Ireland that's not WWE or TNA. Everything I've seen on this board has always screamed amateur hour (with the exception of the Rampage tour) however I have absolutely no problem in participating in the general merryment that the threads bring

nlw_coleman

leggo wrote: »

Not directed at anyone in particular but just to chime in: consumers should NEVER be held accountable for lack of interest. What's the phrase? If you build it, they will come.

The onus is on the promoters to make the show irresistible and unmissable to pack the punters in. Could you imagine McDonalds ran an advertising campaign blaming the public for not trying their new burger? Or fans of McDonalds' new burger started running down others who just didn't like the look/taste of it after it was discontinued due to lack of sales? It makes no sense.

It's simple and doesn't need a massive dissection: if promoters put on a show that's good enough, punters will make it their business to see it. If one can't make it due to work, travel etc...it shouldn't matter because it'll be such a good card that 15 others will come in their place. People can BS...the numbers never lie.

THAT SAID, marketing a product towards the likes of this forum is a recipe for disaster. Always has been. The internet is a useful marketing tool, nowadays, because almost everyone is on it and it's cheap. The die-hard's are notoriously unreliable though. They've seen it all before so missing one smaller show isn't a big deal. Plus the very fact that they sit behind their PC's and play expert instead of actually getting out and BECOMING an expert says it all there (not a dig at anyone, again, just a fact of life).

You market to the masses and the die-hard's will follow along if you've done a good enough job.

I don't think myself or any other promoter is BLAMING anyone for a lack of interest. I'm simply investigating what fans on here would like to see from a show and what would make them want to go. I'm attempting to cater shows towards all kinds of fans, which is why I'm involved in this discussion. The only thing I've ever said negative regarding posters on here is that sometimes there are those who seem to like to spend alot of time complaining about a lack of a scene in Ireland, but most of whom haven't been bothered to attend a show in some time, which means they don't really know what the scene is all about. All I've done is encouraged those to attend local shows is all.

leggo

Wasn't particularly directed at you dude. I've no idea what NLW does/doesn't do these days, to be honest, so I couldn't criticise you even if I wanted to. Just my thoughts based on reading this thread in general and what I've seen/done in the past.

The Cannibal

nlw_coleman wrote: »

As for all indy shows being 'the same old thing', wrestling is wrestling at the end of the day. You look at any wrestling show, anywhere, there's an opening match, there's a main event and all the stuff in between. Would u care to go into more detail about what you mean exactly? I'd be interested to hear more about this.

Okay, to expand on what I said. I'll try not to go into too many tangents.

Wrestling is wrestling, and at the end of everything it is going to end with two guys in the ring wrestling a match, but there is room for creativity within the format.

Even with the general format that indies use things could probably be done better. Like main events themselves.

You always have to have a main event, but when I look at Ireland over the last few years, there have been very few main events that I'd consider a true main event match.

What consists a main event on the Irish indy scene is usually two guys who can wrestle a good match, have probably wrestled a dozen times at different points in the card but have nothing else to them that makes that match a main event attraction. There is no blood feud or pitch to sell you on the main event. Sometimes it will be a title match or a gimmick match, but at this level those mean little if there is nothing behind them.

Unless you are someone like ROH who has spent years building up the prestige of their title, very few will buy a ticket for a main event that is just a title match. Some might go for gimmick matches but that is a short term thing and risks getting into the habit of feeling obligated to provide gimmick matches to keep these fans.

There is also no consistency in main events. Paddy Morrow and Shawn Maxer could main event a show in January, and then open the next show in February. No one is elevated above anyone else to be the face of a promotion and there is no focal point or momentum because the shows are all self contained.

I think every promotion should strive to at least have one big main story arc that goes from show to show and shapes the main events. I know it's difficult with no tv or online show etc but I think that 1 good story shouldn't be too hard to tell. Have 1 consistent main event face and 1 consistent main event heel and have them build a rivalry over a number of shows that is easily followable or can be summed up quickly to the uninitiated or radio hosts about why these guys hate each other. Then you pay it off after a while to hopefully a good house and move onto the next big rivalry. Most main events with current show formats only actually get promoted to the people who have already bought their tickets. The main event heel will cut a promo and then there'll be an intermission soon after. There needs to be more promoting of why a main event is worth your money to people who haven't bought the tickets. Main events almost get treated as an afterthought.

I think the Irish wrestlers need this, because at the moment they are all interchangeable. There is too much focus put onto "Come see live wrestling action!" but not enough on the personalities performing on the show. There are too many guys on even footing shifting up and down the card with no emotional investment in their persona. Most people probably wouldn't know most of the guys on the show at all and after attending probably wouldn't know that much more still other than they saw a decent "boo-yay" match that had nothing invested in it. This is one thing that I feel the certain US indies do far better than we do. A lot of their guys have succesfully cultivated a following of loyal fans on very little exposure.

After years of following the scene, I don't know anything about Paddy Morrow or his motivations other than he is a high flyer. Same with any other name on an Irish card. No one stands out because they are not promoted to stand out and there is no progression. If I went to see most of these guys in 04 it would probably be a very similar show only now they are more experienced in the ring.

So I guess I'm saying that the guys need to be fleshed out from being random interchangeable indy guys and maybe 1 of them needs to be elevated above the pack and be the face that connects everything together.

leggo

The Cannibal wrote: »

I think every promotion should strive to at least have one big main story arc that goes from show to show and shapes the main events.

You're judging independent wrestling while mindful of TV wrestling though. In doing so, you're ignoring the FANS' perception of how they view the card. The only people who would follow these storylines from show-to-show are the 10 or so people who are on boards. And even then it's very likely that they'll just poke holes in them for trying.

I mean, even look at FFPW. They post detailed reports of Sean South matches :P, I mean eh, their shows after they take place...and who pays attention to the storylines involved? The post-show discussion is ALWAYS 'looks like a good card'...and NEVER 'ooohh I'm looking forward to that Joey The Lips/Frankie Firestarter match for a shot at Harry Hoopdini at the next show!'. So it's wasted effort on their part.

I agree with running an angle in the local press. This worked pretty well when we used to do it in IwW. Even personally speaking, when I was involved in the Eamonn Darcy/Blanch Curse/Andy vs Bruiser angles it was brilliant to hear people quoting the story in places that we promoted before the show.

But running an angle in Drogheda that's going to be paid off in Naas just confuses and annoys the Drogheda fans and wastes people's time. Unless you have a solid structure in place (like IwW did in its heyday: GW's promote house shows, house shows promote SuperShows etc)...which nobody around today has the actual resources to do...then writing storylines is a purely masturbatory activity by a mark who wants to play booker without any idea of what purpose booking fulfills (i.e. selling tickets, merchandise, brand awareness)

I think the Irish wrestlers need this, because at the moment they are all interchangeable.

No they don't. If a guy is worried because he's in the main event in one show and the opener the next, then he's a MARK. If someone complained that they didn't have a 'running storyline' in a dressing room filled with true professionals, while NOT on TV, then he'd be laughed out of the building.

If you don't believe me, send your ideas into the likes of Lance Storm, Jim Cornette etc who run Q&A's on their blogs and see what they tell you.

Storylines are for TV. ANGLES can work if done for a spot show. But, as I said, you need resources and long-term planning. Right now, independent wrestling companies should only be worried about sales and getting people in the door. When they begin to turn a consistent enough profit to start planning long-term, THEN you can worry about the rest.

geeky

leggo wrote: »

You're judging independent wrestling while mindful of TV wrestling though. In doing so, you're ignoring the FANS' perception of how they view the card. The only people who would follow these storylines from show-to-show are the 10 or so people who are on boards. And even then it's very likely that they'll just poke holes in them for trying.

I mean, even look at FFPW. They post detailed reports of Sean South matches :P, I mean eh, their shows after they take place...and who pays attention to the storylines involved? The post-show discussion is ALWAYS 'looks like a good card'...and NEVER 'ooohh I'm looking forward to that Joey The Lips/Frankie Firestarter match for a shot at Harry Hoopdini at the next show!'. So it's wasted effort on their part.

I agree with running an angle in the local press. This worked pretty well when we used to do it in IwW. Even personally speaking, when I was involved in the Eamonn Darcy/Blanch Curse/Andy vs Bruiser angles it was brilliant to hear people quoting the story in places that we promoted before the show.

But running an angle in Drogheda that's going to be paid off in Naas just confuses and annoys the Drogheda fans and wastes people's time. Unless you have a solid structure in place (like IwW did in its heyday: GW's promote house shows, house shows promote SuperShows etc)...which nobody around today has the actual resources to do...then writing storylines is a purely masturbatory activity by a mark who wants to play booker without any idea of what purpose booking fulfills (i.e. selling tickets, merchandise, brand awareness)



No they don't. If a guy is worried because he's in the main event in one show and the opener the next, then he's a MARK. If someone complained that they didn't have a 'running storyline' in a dressing room filled with true professionals, while NOT on TV, then he'd be laughed out of the building.

If you don't believe me, send your ideas into the likes of Lance Storm, Jim Cornette etc who run Q&A's on their blogs and see what they tell you.

Storylines are for TV. ANGLES can work if done for a spot show. But, as I said, you need resources and long-term planning. Right now, independent wrestling companies should only be worried about sales and getting people in the door. When they begin to turn a consistent enough profit to start planning long-term, THEN you can worry about the rest.

You've made a good point, but you'll never get people in the door more than twice by doing the same indy one-off format. Taking your view to its logical conclusion, the ideal promotion should run around the country trying to hype up each event as a once-off experience (presumably sticking to the same card/outcomes a la IWW). How can you develop a consistent audience if you're serving the same product week in week out? You'll just end up treading water.

Independent shows can develop storylines without TV, though it's hard. A tried and tested way is to run in the same small geographical area, helping to ensure that the same people are coming back to watch and remember what happened last week/month - Smoky Mountain, Rampage, and ECW did this during periods that they weren't on TV. The alternative, of course, is video packages before shows... it takes editing and a projector, but it'll help educate the audience. At least then kids wouldn't look at the IWW announcer in total confusion when he mentions the 'Zero Gravity title'.

Gerard.C

leggo wrote: »

You're judging independent wrestling while mindful of TV wrestling though. In doing so, you're ignoring the FANS' perception of how they view the card. The only people who would follow these storylines from show-to-show are the 10 or so people who are on boards. And even then it's very likely that they'll just poke holes in them for trying.

I mean, even look at FFPW. They post detailed reports of Sean South matches :P, I mean eh, their shows after they take place...and who pays attention to the storylines involved? The post-show discussion is ALWAYS 'looks like a good card'...and NEVER 'ooohh I'm looking forward to that Joey The Lips/Frankie Firestarter match for a shot at Harry Hoopdini at the next show!'. So it's wasted effort on their part.

I agree with running an angle in the local press. This worked pretty well when we used to do it in IwW. Even personally speaking, when I was involved in the Eamonn Darcy/Blanch Curse/Andy vs Bruiser angles it was brilliant to hear people quoting the story in places that we promoted before the show.

But running an angle in Drogheda that's going to be paid off in Naas just confuses and annoys the Drogheda fans and wastes people's time. Unless you have a solid structure in place (like IwW did in its heyday: GW's promote house shows, house shows promote SuperShows etc)...which nobody around today has the actual resources to do...then writing storylines is a purely masturbatory activity by a mark who wants to play booker without any idea of what purpose booking fulfills (i.e. selling tickets, merchandise, brand awareness)



No they don't. If a guy is worried because he's in the main event in one show and the opener the next, then he's a MARK. If someone complained that they didn't have a 'running storyline' in a dressing room filled with true professionals, while NOT on TV, then he'd be laughed out of the building.

If you don't believe me, send your ideas into the likes of Lance Storm, Jim Cornette etc who run Q&A's on their blogs and see what they tell you.

Storylines are for TV. ANGLES can work if done for a spot show. But, as I said, you need resources and long-term planning. Right now, independent wrestling companies should only be worried about sales and getting people in the door. When they begin to turn a consistent enough profit to start planning long-term, THEN you can worry about the rest.

There isnt enough detail of Sean South matches here. He's just lovely

The Cannibal

I'm not saying Irish wrestlers need consistency and story development because they are marks for it (a term I hate by that way), I am saying they need it because it is beneficial for them. They already know how to work a match. They need to develop skills on working a program, cutting promos, being a personality, all are things that will get them further bookings elsewhere if developed. We should be much like a territory developing these guys to be more well rounded than the other countless indy wrestlers around the world who can already do what they do in a wrestling ring. The up and down the card thing wasn't applied to the wrestlers but more the fans. How is anyone who attends regular shows supposed to get behind someone if how they are handled is not consistent show to show? With the way things are booked no one becomes a draw past their own parents. I think a lot of these guys could be getting bookings abroad a lot faster than they have been.

As for the longer angles/spot shows argument, we always disagree on that because we are on polar opposite viewpoints of the spectrum, but all of what I have said has been achieved elsewhere on a regular basis with no TV. There is a multitude of alternative media out there today that go far beyond tv. I think your method is good for the goals you'd want to achieve to make a promotion profitable but it has a ceiling. I think the method I present is also good. It requires a ton more work but no one gets anywhere without the work.

leggo

geeky wrote: »

You've made a good point, but you'll never get people in the door more than twice by doing the same indy one-off format. Taking your view to its logical conclusion, the ideal promotion should run around the country trying to hype up each event as a once-off experience (presumably sticking to the same card/outcomes a la IWW). How can you develop a consistent audience if you're serving the same product week in week out? You'll just end up treading water.

Independent shows can develop storylines without TV, though it's hard. A tried and tested way is to run in the same small geographical area, helping to ensure that the same people are coming back to watch and remember what happened last week/month - Smoky Mountain, Rampage, and ECW did this during periods that they weren't on TV. The alternative, of course, is video packages before shows... it takes editing and a projector, but it'll help educate the audience. At least then kids wouldn't look at the IWW announcer in total confusion when he mentions the 'Zero Gravity title'.

People say that you'll never get people in the door through the one-off format...but it does work, believe it or not. Kids don't give a **** about complicated storylines. Neither do parents. The novelty in going to a local wrestling show is that you're getting up-close-and-personal with the same kind of stuff you see on TV.

If the kids go home happy, they'll gladly come back. If the kids are happy, the parents think, "Little Tommy loved that the last time. We'll definitely go again!" Job done. It's the same reason WWE house shows consistently sell out in their thousands: they offer very little in the way of originality or story-telling, but the novelty of being able to see these guys in the flesh is more than enough. As far as selling indy wrestling goes: take away the big names, move the kids closer to the ring, interact with them more and offer parents a similar experience at 20% of the price they'd pay for WWE.

For the sake of giving the local press something fresh to give your show publicity, you come up with a storyline involving your top draw and/or the hometown boy.

And that's how you sell small-time independent wrestling to the mass market.

Everything else is excessive and unnecessary. Sure, write up detailed programmes and storylines for every individual on your roster if you want...but don't realistically expect anyone to care. As far as they see it, that's what they watch WWE or TNA for and they do it better. Since perception is reality, unless you can make people perceive your company on their standard (taking money and resources that just aren't in the country at the moment)...then you're never going to convince them otherwise. Fact.

Gerard.C

Was IwW some successful now or say 4 or 5 years ago when they were touring and marketing to older people? As far as I can remember, the Forum in Waterford was getting less and less people attending as the years went on

geeky

leggo wrote: »

People say that you'll never get people in the door through the one-off format...but it does work, believe it or not. Kids don't give a **** about complicated storylines. Neither do parents. The novelty in going to a local wrestling show is that you're getting up-close-and-personal with the same kind of stuff you see on TV.

If the kids go home happy, they'll gladly come back. If the kids are happy, the parents think, "Little Tommy loved that the last time. We'll definitely go again!" Job done. It's the same reason WWE house shows consistently sell out in their thousands: they offer very little in the way of originality or story-telling, but the novelty of being able to see these guys in the flesh is more than enough. As far as selling indy wrestling goes: take away the big names, move the kids closer to the ring, interact with them more and offer parents a similar experience at 20% of the price they'd pay for WWE.

For the sake of giving the local press something fresh to give your show publicity, you come up with a storyline involving your top draw and/or the hometown boy.

And that's how you sell small-time independent wrestling to the mass market.

Or at least to the under-tens, and the parents they can nag into bringing them. But kids have a nasty habit of growing up. You're still running your lungs out to stand still in terms of your audience figures, and ignoring the potential for building up a larger (more mature) crowd who want a reason to suspend their disbelief.

Not to single out one promotion - rather, it's because you have more insight into one - do you have any info/etc on the repeat business that IWW generates with its one-off shows?

leggo wrote: »

Everything else is excessive and unnecessary. Sure, write up detailed programmes and storylines for every individual on your roster if you want...but don't realistically expect anyone to care. As far as they see it, that's what they watch WWE or TNA for and they do it better. Since perception is reality, unless you can make people perceive your company on their standard (taking money and resources that just aren't in the country at the moment)...then you're never going to convince them otherwise. Fact.

I'm not saying that a wrestling show should be a piece of Shakespearean drama (I may be the only person alive who think Hamlet should have ended in a 'crown on a pole' match ) or even anything approaching the involvement that WWE go into. But even saying 'last time we were here in Dublin, you did this', or doing something to make us care about what happens to these people, can't be a bad thing, can it?

Most people above the age of ten don't think wrestling is an athletic contest. So surely - unless you want to limit your audience to that small segment of the population and the parents they drag along - you've got to give the audience some reason to suspend their disbelief.

Also, I'd second the point above that it would help Irish guys improve their skills. I'm not a trained wrestler, so wouldn't dream of slagging off the likes of Mandrake for their in-ring skills (I love watching his matches). But I have studied some theatre, and there are seriously talented guys like him who haven't had a chance to hone their mike/acting skills to match what they can do bell to bell. If he'd spent the last year involved in even some basic continued storylines, he'd be a more complete package.

leggo

See this goes back to an earlier point I was making: right now, small promotions should JUST worry about direct sales. You CAN'T have a long-term future without having short-term profits. They need money to run their next show...and if they have any hopes of growing...need that to be a surplus. So to get that surplus, you attack the strongest market for wrestling (i.e. kids). Then you worry about the long-term planning, your roster's development etc...because none of that will matter if you don't exist in 6 months.

As far as repeat business goes, I've no idea what business they're doing in 2009-10 to be honest, but when I was around IwW had a series of hotspots and then places we could rely on to at least break even. We hit them every 6 months and the numbers always stayed the same. Although of course I WOULD say this, when I was looking after a lot of regional promotion, it was a damn tight operation and we hit or exceeded targets way more often than we missed them. Everyone knew us when we went back around the hotspots, parents loved us, we even had a good collection of the likes of boardsies when we hit their areas or ran Supershows, venues were glad to have us back etc.

I don't think one major angle per show is a bad idea. In fact, that's how I booked when I did. Then you give each match an smaller individual story so the guy's have a direction and each match has a distinguishable feel. If the show sells well, set up a match for the next time you return there.

But it's the word 'storyline' that I take exception to. There is a MASSIVE difference between an angle and a storyline. An angle is a one-show storyline that has its beginning, middle and end self-contained within the 2 hours in a particular venue. A storyline runs from show-to-show and takes a lot of work to keep fans interested. If a promoter gets too buried in making storylines work...that's energy spent where they could be working on getting punters in the door. It's well-intentioned energy, granted, but people just don't care enough to make it worthwhile.

If you want to write storylines, get a job writing for Fair City or at least make it your goal to get your promotion on TV somewhere. If you want to sell tickets and run a successful promotion on live events though, remove the word storyline from your verbatim and come to grips with what the public want from your product.

The Cannibal

My view on the family market is that you are going to get them anyway. The only way you'd drive them off is by making the product too risque. Kids who like a show with standard matches, a mid show heel promo and a generic main event will probably still like wrestling with a slightly different presentation. They should definitely be catered and marketed to but not be the only audience segment you focus on.

Even with families though the attendance is too sporadic. The kids might like it but to parents it's an inconvience they have to sit through. I remember having to plead with my Dad to take me to wrestling shows at that age. He didn't want to work all day and spend his night watching "fake crap" and I'm sure a lot of parents have the same attitude so they will sometimes come but if they can find an excuse not to, they won't. It's an audience segment that depends on someone who likely doesn't even like it deciding to go. As someone else said, they also grow up and move onto other interests when they find they have aged 2 years and the product is the exact same thing they saw 2 years ago. It impressed him then but now he is more into MMA or football.

There is plenty of room to incorporate that audience and other more dedicated audience segments too, which is why I guess NLW are enquiring about what people would like to see.

geeky

I'd echo Cannibal's point: you're going to get the kids that like wrestling and know about it.

I'd also say that the focus you cite on direct sales for the next show, or maybe two shows down the line, has been done long enough by IWW to evaluate it. Without being privvy to the audience figures and the financial status of the company, I don't think we can call it a success in 09-10, or even sustainable long-term.

As I've said, a promoter doesn't need to spend hours upon hours honing storylines/angles [to me the words are interchangeable] into works of dramatic art, with layers of meaning, and a message about the nature of life. Just something said or shown that establishes why these guys don't like each other, who the face is and who the heel is would be nice. Simply having the heel go down the aisle yelling at kids isn't really going to make people go back - and anyway, we know that doesn't always work out so well . The approach you mentioned - one or two angles/storylines per show and a set-up for next time - is enough, though I think that the last time the promotion was in town should be referred to.

The Cannibal

leggo wrote: »

See this goes back to an earlier point I was making: right now, small promotions should JUST worry about direct sales. You CAN'T have a long-term future without having short-term profits. They need money to run their next show...and if they have any hopes of growing...need that to be a surplus. So to get that surplus, you attack the strongest market for wrestling (i.e. kids). Then you worry about the long-term planning, your roster's development etc...because none of that will matter if you don't exist in 6 months.

As far as repeat business goes, I've no idea what business they're doing in 2009-10 to be honest, but when I was around IwW had a series of hotspots and then places we could rely on to at least break even. We hit them every 6 months and the numbers always stayed the same. Although of course I WOULD say this, when I was looking after a lot of regional promotion, it was a damn tight operation and we hit or exceeded targets way more often than we missed them. Everyone knew us when we went back around the hotspots, parents loved us, we even had a good collection of the likes of boardsies when we hit their areas or ran Supershows, venues were glad to have us back etc.

I don't think one major angle per show is a bad idea. In fact, that's how I booked when I did. Then you give each match an smaller individual story so the guy's have a direction and each match has a distinguishable feel. If the show sells well, set up a match for the next time you return there.

But it's the word 'storyline' that I take exception to. There is a MASSIVE difference between an angle and a storyline. An angle is a one-show storyline that has its beginning, middle and end self-contained within the 2 hours in a particular venue. A storyline runs from show-to-show and takes a lot of work to keep fans interested. If a promoter gets too buried in making storylines work...that's energy spent where they could be working on getting punters in the door. It's well-intentioned energy, granted, but people just don't care enough to make it worthwhile.

If you want to write storylines, get a job writing for Fair City or at least make it your goal to get your promotion on TV somewhere. If you want to sell tickets and run a successful promotion on live events though, remove the word storyline from your verbatim and come to grips with what the public want from your product.

EVERY business starts with a loss. You don't decide "I'm going to start a business" one morning and step into profit. If it were like that everyone would be a businessman. Even IwW started with a loss. It is accepted that you have to spend money to make money and you spend money because you intend to make it back ten fold down the line.

At the very start is when you SHOULD plan long term. Every succesful business has a business plan of where they intend to be and what they need to do to get there.

You could go down an easier path and look at turning over minor profits by focusing on kids looking for the novelty, but what does that really get you? You have given yourself a restricting brand that people identify you as right out the gate and if you try to go back six months later and rebrand to bring in that audience you originally snubbed, well they've already formed their impression of you and you have to work three times as hard to win them over. If IwW changed their style today it would probably take a long time for people who had given up on them to consider going back to see if the talk was true.

The aim should be to develop a long term fan base that is continously expanded at a gradual rate. One that is loyal and vocal about the product. That is not achievable with the present thinking people have.

Really the true goal of the business should be to support yourself with an income off of that business down the line and I don't see that happening with the one off model. You make a profit on the cost of the show itself but not so much that you can count on supporting yourself on it. It might not happen with the other model either cause wrestling isn't a reliable business and very few do make a full time career in it, but I think there is more chance of it down the line if it is pulled off.

Long term planning is perfectly fine. You may find yourself out of business before those plans are realized but to have the actual goal is beneficiary. Just because the plans are long term doesn't mean you slack off on bringing things from the red into the black in the short term. It is all about finding the right balance and that is only achieved by actively expanding your audience at every possible opportunity with long term goal posts constantly being moved further and further to spur you on. Aim to scale the mountain many miles away but watch your step on all the hills you have to climb on the way to that mountain.

geeky

The Cannibal wrote: »

EVERY business starts with a loss. You don't decide "I'm going to start a business" one morning and step into profit. If it were like that everyone would be a businessman. Even IwW started with a loss. It is accepted that you have to spend money to make money and you spend money because you intend to make it back ten fold down the line.

At the very start is when you SHOULD plan long term. Every succesful business has a business plan of where they intend to be and what they need to do to get there.

You could go down an easier path and look at turning over minor profits by focusing on kids looking for the novelty, but what does that really get you? You have given yourself a restricting brand that people identify you as right out the gate and if you try to go back six months later and rebrand to bring in that audience you originally snubbed, well they've already formed their impression of you and you have to work three times as hard to win them over. If IwW changed their style today it would probably take a long time for people who had given up on them to consider going back to see if the talk was true.

The aim should be to develop a long term fan base that is continously expanded at a gradual rate. One that is loyal and vocal about the product. That is not achievable with the present thinking people have.

Really the true goal of the business should be to support yourself with an income off of that business down the line and I don't see that happening with the one off model. You make a profit on the cost of the show itself but not so much that you can count on supporting yourself on it. It might not happen with the other model either cause wrestling isn't a reliable business and very few do make a full time career in it, but I think there is more chance of it down the line if it is pulled off.

Long term planning is perfectly fine. You may find yourself out of business before those plans are realized but to have the actual goal is beneficiary. Just because the plans are long term doesn't mean you slack off on bringing things from the red into the black in the short term. It is all about finding the right balance and that is only achieved by actively expanding your audience at every possible opportunity with long term goal posts constantly being moved further and further to spur you on. Aim to scale the mountain many miles away but watch your step on all the hills you have to climb on the way to that mountain.

Couldn't have put it better myself. If you want a hobby, do some Friends and Family shows like FFPW - not knocking for one second what those guys do, but nobody there expects to get rich doing it. If you want something that will grow an audience over time and maybe get Irish wrestling to a level where people can do it full-time, well, promotions clearly have to think more long-term.

Barely half of all businesses set up ever get to break even status - the figure is even lower, if I recall correctly, for businesses that cater to consumers rather than other businesses. Getting it to that point of long-term sustainability takes investment. That's a fact.

Vince135792003

I think how long your show is is more important than any storyline.

Hardcores might like a long show but any show longer than 2 hours and kids will get restless as well as Mas and Dads not fancy sitting through it on semi regular basis.

The Cannibal

I don't think many shows go over 2 hours here these days. Maybe AWR but local level I think usually keeps it under.

Vince135792003

The Cannibal wrote: »

I don't think many shows go over 2 hours here these days. Maybe AWR but local level I think usually keeps it under.

Yeah to me an hour and a half is plenty.

leggo

No no no lads, you've got it all wrong. YOU'RE the kinda guys you write off in favour of catering towards family. Why do you think WWE has a 'Universe' now?

You aim at kids and get the overgrown kids (myself included) who'll never stop watching in the process. Even if you alienate them it'll only be a minor blip. Whereas aim at other markets and you risk making your product too risqué or complicated for children.

You mightn't LIKE it...but it's a fact of life. You'll keep interested anyway and will always be a potential consumer if they want you. As evidenced by your continued posting here.

I'm not saying it doesn't take money to make money but lads you're throwing Dragon's Den-style business jargon at me and missing the fundamentals here.

For example: Cannibal remember you drew up an actual business plan with the basis behind it being "Well I would start with E10,000 and then do this this and this..." without any actual idea how hard it is to raise E10,000 and how "this this and this" would lose you your entire capital within a couple of shows and leave you financially devastated?

Like I said lads, you can feel free to disagree all you like. You can apply logic to something...but it doesn't make it true. Again, I have to say, when it comes to putting your money in your pocket it's a VERY different story. And you're making a MASSIVE assumption that the people you're criticising HAVEN'T either tried or budgeted for your plans and realised that they don't work. I'd put money on it that they have: since all it takes for you to come up with plans to save Irish wrestling is to sit at your PC...and it's been nearly a full-time job for those who've actually gone beyond the keyboard.

Personally, I LIKE what you're saying as far as me being a potential consumer goes. But it's not tenable in the real world.

As I say, though, feel free to try and prove me wrong one day and see how it goes.

The Cannibal

Yeah. Unless it is a big, big show I'd agree with keeping it two hours or under. Especially when there is little variation and it is just match after match.

The Cannibal

leggo wrote: »

You can apply logic to something...but it doesn't make it true.

*shakes head, walks away*

leggo

Seriously dude, get that ten grand that grows on trees and prove me wrong by all means!

geeky

I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree, Leggo, but I should make three points.

Firstly, you're writing as if IWW's approach has been a raging success. Not to diminish the achievement of keeping a promotion going this long, but I don't think one can claim they're on a road to growth or even long-term sustainability.

Raising the capital to get a business working (or 'scaleable' to use Dragon's Den language isn't easy, as you say. That doesn't make it any less essential. That's why you get people with sometimes great ideas ready to humiliate themselves to get some money from someone who won't contribute anything else - they know that, no matter how solid a plan is, they need cash to keep it going long enough to work.

Also,

leggo wrote: »

You can apply logic to something...but it doesn't make it true.

There are not enough facepalms in the world for that statement.

The Cannibal

I never said it grows on trees. I said that's what you'd need to get minimum to cover start up, a lot of which is to cover the one off costs before you even book your first show. How it is provided is up to the person whether it is personal finance, bank loan, investor, inheritance, consortium, sponsor, other business, grants or a combination of all of them. If they can't raise the money then they're never likely going to succeed anyway. It is a start up cost, a minimum stake in the bet. The goal would be to get most of the promotions elements to be as self funding as possible after that money is initially put in. You want everything to work like a self funding machine that hopefully gives you a little on top, but at first you have to spend the money to build that machine. There is just no way to start a business without losing that initial money, it's impossible, no matter how small. Even running things your way you'd likely have to put at least a similar amount at risk without knowing if it will pay off.

Yes, it is a risk that could cost you money if it goes belly up, but even if you opened a bakery you'd be putting yourself at a similar risk in the current economy, even more so because to set up with a leased premises would cost you far more per annum. Business is gambling plain and simple. You put your money on the line and you either double it, break even or lose it, but there is no guaranteed formula for it, only that hard work is a part of it.

You can also stop challenging me every time we have this discussion. The money wouldn't be a huge obstacle for me, but you won't see me doing it in the near future. For now, I just like engaging in the debate in the hopes that someone who is doing it right now might incorporate some ideas to appeal to different fan types. The NLW guy asked for discussion and feedback on it so I gave it. Doubtful he will use much of it, but I say it just so that side is heard regardless.

leggo

I'm not challenging you dude, I'm simply saying that if you feel so strongly about it then try your theories out in the real world.

Because both myself and many others HAVE tested them out, for real, with real stakes on the line, and come to the conclusion that they DON'T WORK in Ireland. And yet you continue to harp on about how this could 'save' Irish wrestling. No it can't. No matter how good your story is...if nobody wants to hear it...it's dead in the water. End of.

And then your final paragraph here is basically saying, "I feel strongly about these ideas...but I'd never try them out myself. I'd love if someone else did so I can take credit for it if it works and distance myself if it doesn't!"

That just shows lack of faith in your own theory that you've been bandying on about for months now. If it was such a cash cow idea...why aren't you getting on board if money isn't a problem??

(Btw lads, I'm not saying this to have a go. I enjoy discussing this...else I just wouldn't post here. So don't mistake my confrontational tone for trying to 'attack' any of you)

The Cannibal

leggo wrote: »

Because both myself and many others HAVE tested them out, for real, with real stakes on the line, and come to the conclusion that they DON'T WORK in Ireland.

No, you can't count yourself among them. You worked with a business that had already gone through its rough period and set up and was moving in to an established routine set by those that came before you got in that position for what they felt worked. And it did work for them in the short term which is the key thing. Then you didn't stick around with it to get the perspective of the long term which is the element I've been debating. You just saw that what you did worked in that immediate time period and decided that it was the only model that would ever work for anyone in the country period, because if they don't make money the way you did then they obviously can't make money. You have booked individual shows but you haven't started anything from the ground up. There is a huge difference and I think a lot of your comments in posts above have shown ignorance of commonly accepted business fundamentals for starting a business, and yes that includes wrestling and "logic"

And those theories have not been tested out, because if they had it would be obvious to every fan that they had. What you are talking about is someone gave aspects of them brief thought in passing and went "Nah". Nowhere near the same thing.

leggo wrote: »

I'm not challenging you dude, I'm simply saying that if you feel so strongly about it then try your theories out in the real world.

When you do it every time a discussion verges into this territory after I have told you before that I won't be doing it in the near future and just want to keep it to discussion, then it goes beyond a suggestion or you 'simply saying'

I don't have a lack of faith in my own theory, I just acknowledge that it takes more than money. One other thing it takes is a lot of time and work and I am not in a position to devote that to it in the immediate future and without that devotion the idea would fail because it is a key ingredient. I also don't have a transit van or a place for storage when there are no shows. Too many circumstances I have to change to be in a position to start before I go to gather money together, so it won't happen in the immediate future. So for the love of god, stop trying to goad me into it when you run out of responses for talking points.

I also never said it was a cash cow idea. I said it would lose money in the immediate start but if it worked would reap far greater reward in the future than the one off model. There is a LOT that could go wrong with it. It has all the risks that come with any business. 7/10 people could probably fail with this idea, but the 3 that make it would make it better than guys of the other model in my opinion. It is a future/sustainability argument vs a short term profit argument that possibly harms the future by refusing to exapand the audience. My ideas are simply built out of the concept of getting someone to pay for over a dozen shows instead of 2 and not simply replacing the old kids with new kids, but keeping them and adding those new kids at the same time as well as catering to anyone else that wanted to attend. It is not some crazy notion to want to spend time and effort building a fan base that supports you like they would a football team and gives you repeat business constantly.

I didn't even bring my promotion idea into this argument anyway, that was you. It was originally theories on why there wasn't a raging interest in wrestling when someone doing it asked about it. I think my theories in that regard at least have some validity no matter what you think of how qualified I am to make those assertions.

I will try to make this my last post in this topic because usually when we get to this personal blow by blow stage it ceases to be a productive discussion and debate.

geeky

leggo wrote: »

(Btw lads, I'm not saying this to have a go. I enjoy discussing this...else I just wouldn't post here. So don't mistake my confrontational tone for trying to 'attack' any of you)

Could have fooled me. I don't feel personally attacked, but you are going a little heavy with Cannibal.

leggo wrote: »

Because both myself and many others HAVE tested them out, for real, with real stakes on the line, and come to the conclusion that they DON'T WORK in Ireland. And yet you continue to harp on about how this could 'save' Irish wrestling. No it can't. No matter how good your story is...if nobody wants to hear it...it's dead in the water. End of.

Why have you come to the conclusion that they don't work? You haven't explained this, just insisted that we're wrong and the one-off kid-focused show IWW are treading water with is right.