Negative attitudes toward domestic wrestling events?

RAMPAGE1

Ireland2010 wrote: »

No problem lads. No offence taken. It is in the corrib and cashel suite of the Glenroyal Hotel. Please feel free to call me whenever you want on 086 3346732.

A history of my promotional work include Liverpool legends V Manchester United legends. I have done 2 previous conventions of this kind. One on the continent and one in the US in 2008. I also manage 3 time World darts champion John Part, along with Terry Jenkins and Ronnie Baxter for all darts fans. see link http://archives.tcm.ie/waterfordnews/2008/02/15/story27915.asp .I am also a repesentitive for some of the UK's soap stars from Corrie and Eastendes.

Also if you would like to see crowds I have managed with my promotions please checkout http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7f-l57Hq9o AND http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cotS7tOx5w. That is me on the MC.I don't know who put this on youtube but check it out.

I also represent David Bishop of Sale Sharks and Andrew Bishop from Wales and the Ospreys in Rugby Union.

You missed the point of the HTM post. Of course I know his name. Read the posts again:). But please feel free to call me on the above number.

Alan I wouldn't get bogged down on here about this as most people on here rarely attend wrestling events in this country except WWE Shows and you can see this by the general attitude. I'll be attending the event and best of luck with it I hope its a huge success.

Gerard.C

RAMPAGE1 wrote: »

Alan I wouldn't get bogged down on here about this as most people on here rarely attend wrestling events in this country except WWE Shows and you can see this by the general attitude. I'll be attending the event and best of luck with it I hope its a huge success.

What do you mean by "the general attitude"?... That's a very broad statement

RAMPAGE1

Gerard.C wrote: »

What do you mean by "the general attitude"?... That's a very broad statement

Well broaden it further and run a poll on here and see how many people on here in the last year have attended a non WWE/TNA event and go back and look at initial posts on here from people when an event is announced most people on here seem up for going but based on attendance figures never show up and as Cannibal has stated in previous posts look at the state of the Irish wrestling scene when Irish wrestlers are currently at their most successful eg Fergal devitt and Sheamus

waltersobchak

RAMPAGE1 wrote: »

Well broaden it further and run a poll on here and see how many people on here in the last year have attended a non WWE/TNA event and go back and look at initial posts on here from people when an event is announced most people on here seem up for going but based on attendance figures never show up and as Cannibal has stated in previous posts look at the state of the Irish wrestling scene when Irish wrestlers are currently at their most successful eg Fergal devitt and Sheamus

Whats the point in running a poll on here about that? honestly what has that got to do with this event?

Gerard.C

RAMPAGE1 wrote: »

Well broaden it further and run a poll on here and see how many people on here in the last year have attended a non WWE/TNA event and go back and look at initial posts on here from people when an event is announced most people on here seem up for going but based on attendance figures never show up and as Cannibal has stated in previous posts look at the state of the Irish wrestling scene when Irish wrestlers are currently at their most successful eg Fergal devitt and Sheamus

What events have there been? FFPW only does shows in their gym unfortunately,I'm sure many people here would like to go to one, myself included, but its just not possible. IwW has killed off most of its internet fanbase, and quite frankly I wouldnt go across the road to see them anymore. Most people on here were at an AWR show, due to them touring and making it more pratical for people to get to the shows.

So again I ask you, what is the "general attitude" that you are refering to? The way you worded your statement made it seem like nobody on here wants to support Irish Wrestling. It's all well and good to be living in Dublin, and hop on the 21a for half an hour or whatever. It's a different story having to travel up to Dublin for a show

RAMPAGE1

waltersobchak wrote: »

Whats the pont in running a poll on here about that? honestly what has that got to do with this event?

Because here's a guy Alan who's running a wrestlefest type event and instead of people getting behind it the usual repsonse on here is to run it down and then the guy is getting questioned about his background as if he has to bother supplying proof of his credentials to people who probably won't go the poll would demonstrate the level of interest on here at the moment to these type of events hence the reason I suggested it so Alan wouldn't be wasting his time on here trying to drive the event home

gimmick

To be fair, I think I was the only one who said it was a bad idea etc. Apart from that, I think it has been received very warmly.

waltersobchak

RAMPAGE1 wrote: »

Because here's a guy Alan who's running a wrestlefest type event and instead of people getting behind it the usual repsonse on here is to run it down and then the guy is getting questioned about his background as if he has to bother supplying proof of his credentials to people who probably won't go the poll would demonstrate the level of interest on here at the moment to these type of events hence the reason I suggested it so Alan wouldn't be wasting his time on here trying to drive the event home

So your saying it's wrong for people to ask a guy who has never promoted a wrestling event, what he's done before? Maybe some of the cowboys who run show's here have left fans reasons to be sceptical.

Gerard.C

RAMPAGE1 wrote: »

Because here's a guy Alan who's running a wrestlefest type event and instead of people getting behind it the usual repsonse on here is to run it down and then the guy is getting questioned about his background as if he has to bother supplying proof of his credentials to people who probably won't go the poll would demonstrate the level of interest on here at the moment to these type of events hence the reason I suggested it so Alan wouldn't be wasting his time on here trying to drive the event home

Yeah, a newly registered user called "Alan" springs up out of nowhere and says he has Mick Foley and the Million Dollar Man booked for a two day fan fest in Kildare, with no proof whatsoever.

Are you serious? You wouldnt be anyway suspicious, given the nature of the wrestling buisness? I'm sure more people would "get behind him" if there was any bit of proof whatever. There isnt, as of yet. I've said I didnt mean to offend him, which he accepted. If it turns out that this is genuine, there will be much more interest, I bet you that much.

And for the record, I probably will go if this happens.

RAMPAGE1

Gerard.C wrote: »

What events have there been? FFPW only does shows in their gym unfortunately,I'm sure many people here would like to go to one, myself included, but its just not possible. IwW has killed off most of its internet fanbase, and quite frankly I wouldnt go across the road to see them anymore. Most people on here were at an AWR show, due to them touring and making it more pratical for people to get to the shows.

So again I ask you, what is the "general attitude" that you are refering to? The way you worded your statement made it seem like nobody on here wants to support Irish Wrestling. It's all well and good to be living in Dublin, and hop on the 21a for half an hour or whatever. It's a different story having to travel up to Dublin for a show

My opinion is that the wrestling forum has become very negative over the last year and not negative in a good way. I find that no matter what people in this country try to do in relation to wrestling its put down straight away either locations are not good enough or line ups are poor or pricing is wrong or transport is impossible or the great word recession. I used to go to all the IWW Gym Wars back in the day and had a great time at them and it took me 2 hours to get to them. I also attend FFPW Shows, NLW Shows, CPW and Rampage shows and the fact that much of it doesn't happen anymore is a pity and I think that wrestling fans in Ireland have the ability to make it better again by just supporting it a little bit better and making sure that these companies keep going as its all we got outside of WWE which is barely watchable at the moment.

Gerard.C

RAMPAGE1 wrote: »

My opinion is that the wrestling forum has become very negative over the last year and not negative in a good way. I find that no matter what people in this country try to do in relation to wrestling its put down straight away either locations are not good enough or line ups are poor or pricing is wrong or transport is impossible or the great word recession. I used to go to all the IWW Gym Wars back in the day and had a great time at them and it took me 2 hours to get to them. I also attend FFPW Shows, NLW Shows, CPW and Rampage shows and the fact that much of it doesn't happen anymore is a pity and I think that wrestling fans in Ireland have the ability to make it better again by just supporting it a little bit better and making sure that these companies keep going as its all we got outside of WWE which is barely watchable at the moment.

There is only negativity towards certain aspects of Irish Wrestling. AWR and FFPW are ALWAYS well received on here. If FFPW toured, a lot of people from on here would go. They seem to be happy doing their Friends and Family shows, more power to them if its going well for them. I'd love to support them, but its just not that easy. I'm sure its the same for other people. Please dont be making this forum out to be negative towards Irish Wrestling, as it is anything but.

RAMPAGE1

Gerard.C wrote: »

Yeah, a newly registered user called "Alan" springs up out of nowhere and says he has Mick Foley and the Million Dollar Man booked for a two day fan fest in Kildare, with no proof whatsoever.

Are you serious? You wouldnt be anyway suspicious, given the nature of the wrestling buisness? I'm sure more people would "get behind him" if there was any bit of proof whatever. There isnt, as of yet. I've said I didnt mean to offend him, which he accepted. If it turns out that this is genuine, there will be much more interest, I bet you that much.

And for the record, I probably will go if this happens.

These kind of events aren't so much about who you are as opposed to how much your willing to pay. I'm not aiming any of this at you personally as like myself we've both probably attended some amount of crap over the years and still smiled and enjoyed it. I just think we all need to pull together to make it better

Ireland2010

waltersobchak wrote: »

So your saying it's wrong for people to ask a guy who has never promoted a wrestling event, what he's done before? Maybe some of the cowboys who run show's here have left fans reasons to be sceptical.

Thanks Walter,

I have done these before but just not in Ireland as I stated in previous posts but I don't mind anyone asking any questions whatsoever. Ireland has cried out for something this and I hope when the site is launched next week the recorded communication some some of the superstars on it will be enough proof for you.

Hotel is sorted, lineup is sorted,travel is sorted website is nearly sorted. The idea of my OP going out when it did was to see would the event get noticed so if a poll is on the table I would love to hear peoples views albeit a "yes" or a "no" on the event I would appreciate it. It is not going to make a difference to it. This event called Wrestlezone Ireland is going a head 200% and I would love for all the wresrtling fans from today and years gone by to come and meet their icons.

And as I say any questions just get me on 086 3346732.
Many thanks,
Alan.

gimmick

RAMPAGE1 wrote: »

My opinion is that the wrestling forum has become very negative over the last year and not negative in a good way.

I find this bit quite odd. The Irish Promotions sticky has been more positive now than what it probably ever has been. There is no bannings, sniping or anything happening there. Credit generally seems to be given where it is due.

There have been a few new promotions advertising here, and people have seemed to be genuinely interested in them, while at the same time asking questions of them, but not sniping at them like what used happen here 3/4 years ago.

I would certainly love to be able to travel up to Dublin and the surrounding areas for every show I would like to go to, but between work and my personal life, doing such is just not an option. If that makes me negative or whatever, then so be it.

gimmick

Again, I do not think there is a lack of interest. I would love to see an NLW show, but Sunday evenings in Kildare make it very difficult to get to from Cork.

Gerard.C

gimmick wrote: »

I find this bit quite odd. The Irish Promotions sticky has been more positive now than what it probably ever has been. There is no bannings, sniping or anything happening there. Credit generally seems to be given where it is due.

There have been a few new promotions advertising here, and people have seemed to be genuinely interested in them, while at the same time asking questions of them, but not sniping at them like what used happen here 3/4 years ago.

I would certainly love to be able to travel up to Dublin and the surrounding areas for every show I would like to go to, but between work and my personal life, doing such is just not an option. If that makes me negative or whatever, then so be it.

Exactly. Where is all this negative attitude malarky coming from? In fairness, not to be rising certain people, but the majority of the negativity on here is towards IwW.

It's usually just not an option to attend these shows, as much as I would like to go and support some of the talent. For example, at the AWR show in Cork, I was more impressed by the Irish lads than anyone else. I'd love to see them showcased more often, but trying to get to Kildare on a Sunday evening, as gimmick said, is not an option due to many reasons.

nlw_coleman

I don't think anyone could safely say there isn't a lack of interest. The clearly is but I'm not gonna get into a war of words over it. I personally believe there once was a certain buzz regarding the Irish scene but its gone now. Im sure that has something to do with the product of some smaller shows not being as good over recent years but I think almost everyone involved in promoting shows is now trying damn hard to turn things back around.

Of course someone from Cork isn't gonna travel to Kildare to see a show. I'm not suggesting anyone should do that. But if you live around Kildare and surrounding areas like Dublin or Laois etc., then a quick commute and a €12 ticket isn't gonna hurt too bad. And everyone here likes wrestling and I assure you you'll get a good wrestling show for your ticket price.

I do want to know what people on here would look for and what would make them attend a show featuring Irish talent. Gimmick matches, women's matches...you tell me! It's always good to get feedback.

Unfortunately though, it seems no posters from boards attended the NLW show in January to give feedback on that that particular show. There was no mention of it. We had a Ladder Match, a No Holds Barred Match and we did feature the top local talent. Im not looking for everyone to post their individual reasons for not going, nobody is obliged. But if people want a fresh scene then those people should really support projects like NLW. I personally travelled to Athlone for the Emerald Promotions show last month, payed the entrance fee and travelled home that evening. Why? Because I was interested to see what was on offer and I like wrestling shows.

I don't think we at NLW have offered a more solid show than we did back on January 24th in Naas since perhaps our first few shows in 2006. It did have a certain 'fresh start' feel to it, everyone worked their asses off and from a fan standpoint, I must admit I 'marked out' for the wrestling in the Main Event between Paddy Morrow and Dunkie D. Luckily the Moat Theatre did sell out that evening but it's unfortunate that all posters here seem to have missed out on the show. I do hope people give the smaller shows on the Irish scene a chance this year.

geeky

nlw_coleman wrote: »

I don't think anyone could safely say there isn't a lack of interest. The clearly is but I'm not gonna get into a war of words over it. I personally believe there once was a certain buzz regarding the Irish scene but its gone now. Im sure that has something to do with the product of some smaller shows not being as good over recent years but I think almost everyone involved in promoting shows is now trying damn hard to turn things back around.

Of course someone from Cork isn't gonna travel to Kildare to see a show. I'm not suggesting anyone should do that. But if you live around Kildare and surrounding areas like Dublin or Laois etc., then a quick commute and a €12 ticket isn't gonna hurt too bad. And everyone here likes wrestling and I assure you you'll get a good wrestling show for your ticket price.

I do want to know what people on here would look for and what would make them attend a show featuring Irish talent. Gimmick matches, women's matches...you tell me! It's always good to get feedback.

Unfortunately though, it seems no posters from boards attended the NLW show in January to give feedback on that that particular show. There was no mention of it. We had a Ladder Match, a No Holds Barred Match and we did feature the top local talent. Im not looking for everyone to post their individual reasons for not going, nobody is obliged. But if people want a fresh scene then those people should really support projects like NLW. I personally travelled to Athlone for the Emerald Promotions show last month, payed the entrance fee and travelled home that evening. Why? Because I was interested to see what was on offer and I like wrestling shows.

I don't think we at NLW have offered a more solid show than we did back on January 24th in Naas since perhaps our first few shows in 2006. It did have a certain 'fresh start' feel to it, everyone worked their asses off and from a fan standpoint, I must admit I 'marked out' for the wrestling in the Main Event between Paddy Morrow and Dunkie D. Luckily the Moat Theatre did sell out that evening but it's unfortunate that all posters here seem to have missed out on the show. I do hope people give the smaller shows on the Irish scene a chance this year.

Unfortunately I've no excuse other than time (if it helps, there was a huge job I had to do which I'm banking on for funding the trip to the next show). It looked really good, and I'm looking forward to seeing this next one.

As for actual feedback - without seeing your company's specific product, I think the names on the top of the card are as good as anyone on the scene right now. So fair play. I also like the idea of one or two special matches - no more than that, though. Women's matches to me are an absolute no-no. I like the idea of a bit of storytelling inside the shows too, though this is obviously dependent on the execution. Dunkan D works great as a heel, and I really can't wait for the next show.

Gerard.C

nlw_coleman wrote: »

I don't think anyone could safely say there isn't a lack of interest. The clearly is but I'm not gonna get into a war of words over it. I personally believe there once was a certain buzz regarding the Irish scene but its gone now. Im sure that has something to do with the product of some smaller shows not being as good over recent years but I think almost everyone involved in promoting shows is now trying damn hard to turn things back around.

Of course someone from Cork isn't gonna travel to Kildare to see a show. I'm not suggesting anyone should do that. But if you live around Kildare and surrounding areas like Dublin or Laois etc., then a quick commute and a €12 ticket isn't gonna hurt too bad. And everyone here likes wrestling and I assure you you'll get a good wrestling show for your ticket price.

I do want to know what people on here would look for and what would make them attend a show featuring Irish talent. Gimmick matches, women's matches...you tell me! It's always good to get feedback.

Unfortunately though, it seems no posters from boards attended the NLW show in January to give feedback on that that particular show. There was no mention of it. We had a Ladder Match, a No Holds Barred Match and we did feature the top local talent. Im not looking for everyone to post their individual reasons for not going, nobody is obliged. But if people want a fresh scene then those people should really support projects like NLW. I personally travelled to Athlone for the Emerald Promotions show last month, payed the entrance fee and travelled home that evening. Why? Because I was interested to see what was on offer and I like wrestling shows.

I don't think we at NLW have offered a more solid show than we did back on January 24th in Naas since perhaps our first few shows in 2006. It did have a certain 'fresh start' feel to it, everyone worked their asses off and from a fan standpoint, I must admit I 'marked out' for the wrestling in the Main Event between Paddy Morrow and Dunkie D. Luckily the Moat Theatre did sell out that evening but it's unfortunate that all posters here seem to have missed out on the show. I do hope people give the smaller shows on the Irish scene a chance this year.

Is it fair to say that this buzz was around when IwW was at its prime several years ago, touring the country and holding supershows in Dublin then?

nlw_coleman

Thanks geeky, appreciate the response. We do storytelling in our shows too. Although it can be difficult unless we're running the same venue each month. But we will be continuing feuds etc. from our January show but it will all make sense even if you haven't attended the first one. Again, thanks for the feedback.

The Cannibal

I think most of the boarders are Dublin based with a percentage out in Cork and other further out places. Most shows seem to be run up north or in between where the boarders are based. Promoters are now favouring smaller counties where wrestling is seen as a novelty attraction. While it is good for short term business to promote like that, the long term buzz isn't good because those counties don't talk about it and no one outside of them sees the show. There is no DVD distribution, no online shows, promo's etc. Everything is self contained to small county shows and nothing follows on.

When there was a buzz about Irish wrestling, you had at LEAST 2 Dublin shows per month and the occasional show out in Cork or near by for the people on the other side of the country. There was a large group of online fans that talked about it, before everyone decided it wasn't cool to encourage internet fans for whatever reason and the talk slowly went away and the shows drifted into middle of nowhere locations.

I live in the biggest city in Ireland with the best public transport in the country and the most choice for venues. Yet I can not remember the last time I could get to a show with 1 bus or train. The last show I made an effort to take more than one bus to was canceled after I got there.

But say you convince everyone in Dublin to travel out of their comfort zone for one show. Say the moat theatre is packed with nothing but Dubliners, what is in it for them long term? Will they get a show closer to home or will they have to travel every single time they want to see a show? You've stated the moat theatre as your NLW arena, so to follow NLW I will have to constantly travel. Running the moat is good because it is usually always a sell out, but I don't think it's fair to criticise out of county people for not attending these shows when they are not rewarded for it other than with the show itself. You can probably get people out for one show if you really want to, but they are not going to come on a consistent basis if they keep having to travel for it.

Past that, the shows are just too isolated and one off. I know they'll probably be good, but if you have seen one indy show these days you've seen them all because someone wrote up a format years ago on how to book an indy show for audiences that have never seen the product before and everyone copies from that sheet. The shows are great for first timers and kids but to anyone who has attended a half dozen shows or more it becomes the same old repetitive stuff, even if the card delivers solid matches up and down.

What would get me supporting on a hardcore fan basis that attends any show I can possibly get to would be for an indy promotion here to be more like numerous ones in America. I don't live in the US but if I really wanted to I could easily follow what's going on in PWG, Chikara or many other small promotions that run over there. It can be done, just everyone here focuses on completely different priorities.

More gimmick matches and stuff like that are only stunts that give short term boosts. If you give a gimmick match every show then it becomes as repetitive as everything else on the show. They should only really be used for the biggest of matches with two guys who hate each other.

nlw_coleman

The Cannibal wrote: »

I think most of the boarders are Dublin based with a percentage out in Cork and other further out places. Most shows seem to be run up north or in between where the boarders are based. Promoters are now favouring smaller counties where wrestling is seen as a novelty attraction. While it is good for short term business to promote like that, the long term buzz isn't good because those counties don't talk about it and no one outside of them sees the show. There is no DVD distribution, no online shows, promo's etc. Everything is self contained to small county shows and nothing follows on.

When there was a buzz about Irish wrestling, you had at LEAST 2 Dublin shows per month and the occasional show out in Cork or near by for the people on the other side of the country. There was a large group of online fans that talked about it, before everyone decided it wasn't cool to encourage internet fans for whatever reason and the talk slowly went away and the shows drifted into middle of nowhere locations.

I live in the biggest city in Ireland with the best public transport in the country and the most choice for venues. Yet I can not remember the last time I could get to a show with 1 bus or train. The last show I made an effort to take more than one bus to was canceled after I got there.

But say you convince everyone in Dublin to travel out of their comfort zone for one show. Say the moat theatre is packed with nothing but Dubliners, what is in it for them long term? Will they get a show closer to home or will they have to travel every single time they want to see a show? You've stated the moat theatre as your NLW arena, so to follow NLW I will have to constantly travel. Running the moat is good because it is usually always a sell out, but I don't think it's fair to criticise out of county people for not attending these shows when they are not rewarded for it other than with the show itself. You can probably get people out for one show if you really want to, but they are not going to come on a consistent basis if they keep having to travel for it.

Past that, the shows are just too isolated and one off. I know they'll probably be good, but if you have seen one indy show these days you've seen them all because someone wrote up a format years ago on how to book an indy show for audiences that have never seen the product before and everyone copies from that sheet. The shows are great for first timers and kids but to anyone who has attended a half dozen shows or more it becomes the same old repetitive stuff, even if the card delivers solid matches up and down.

What would get me supporting on a hardcore fan basis that attends any show I can possibly get to would be for an indy promotion here to be more like numerous ones in America. I don't live in the US but if I really wanted to I could easily follow what's going on in PWG, Chikara or many other small promotions that run over there. It can be done, just everyone here focuses on completely different priorities.

More gimmick matches and stuff like that are only stunts that give short term boosts. If you give a gimmick match every show then it becomes as repetitive as everything else on the show. They should only really be used for the biggest of matches with two guys who hate each other.

I enjoyed reading your response Cannibal and its great that already two people have shared their honest opinions without being bitchy ! Makes a nice change to alot of threads in this forum

Just to respond, we do intend on running shows in other parts of the country in particular in Dublin, hopefully sooner rather than later. It can be difficult to run often in the capital though because WWE offer so many shows and last year TNA aswell.

Your point is a good one regarding a lack of info about on-going storylines etc. in smaller promotions. I do intend on having some kind of a site in the coming weeks.

As for all indy shows being 'the same old thing', wrestling is wrestling at the end of the day. You look at any wrestling show, anywhere, there's an opening match, there's a main event and all the stuff in between. Would u care to go into more detail about what you mean exactly? I'd be interested to hear more about this.

I never would suggest anybody upset themselves by trying to commute to a show. But if you're someone that complains about a lack of a scene and a show presents itself within a reasonable distance, and if you've nothing more important on, then attend it, and if you hated it, then complain.

What i mean about nobody attending the January NLW show from boards is this: Basically in the weeks leading up to the show, there was some (not alot) talk from people stating they would like to go, they would go etc. But I didn't notice one single post about the show from anyone who attended. Not everyone lives in Dublin. There are people who live in kildare that post here. And even if you are from Dublin, Naas isn't far to be fair. I would never suggest someone from Cork travel to Kildare for a show, unless THEY really really want to. But I would have loved to see some feedback from posters here on the show.

leggo

Not directed at anyone in particular but just to chime in: consumers should NEVER be held accountable for lack of interest. What's the phrase? If you build it, they will come.

The onus is on the promoters to make the show irresistible and unmissable to pack the punters in. Could you imagine McDonalds ran an advertising campaign blaming the public for not trying their new burger? Or fans of McDonalds' new burger started running down others who just didn't like the look/taste of it after it was discontinued due to lack of sales? It makes no sense.

It's simple and doesn't need a massive dissection: if promoters put on a show that's good enough, punters will make it their business to see it. If one can't make it due to work, travel etc...it shouldn't matter because it'll be such a good card that 15 others will come in their place. People can BS...the numbers never lie.

THAT SAID, marketing a product towards the likes of this forum is a recipe for disaster. Always has been. The internet is a useful marketing tool, nowadays, because almost everyone is on it and it's cheap. The die-hard's are notoriously unreliable though. They've seen it all before so missing one smaller show isn't a big deal. Plus the very fact that they sit behind their PC's and play expert instead of actually getting out and BECOMING an expert says it all there (not a dig at anyone, again, just a fact of life).

You market to the masses and the die-hard's will follow along if you've done a good enough job.

Bubs101

I'll be honest. I'm probably never going to go to a wrestling event in Ireland that's not WWE or TNA. Everything I've seen on this board has always screamed amateur hour (with the exception of the Rampage tour) however I have absolutely no problem in participating in the general merryment that the threads bring

nlw_coleman

leggo wrote: »

Not directed at anyone in particular but just to chime in: consumers should NEVER be held accountable for lack of interest. What's the phrase? If you build it, they will come.

The onus is on the promoters to make the show irresistible and unmissable to pack the punters in. Could you imagine McDonalds ran an advertising campaign blaming the public for not trying their new burger? Or fans of McDonalds' new burger started running down others who just didn't like the look/taste of it after it was discontinued due to lack of sales? It makes no sense.

It's simple and doesn't need a massive dissection: if promoters put on a show that's good enough, punters will make it their business to see it. If one can't make it due to work, travel etc...it shouldn't matter because it'll be such a good card that 15 others will come in their place. People can BS...the numbers never lie.

THAT SAID, marketing a product towards the likes of this forum is a recipe for disaster. Always has been. The internet is a useful marketing tool, nowadays, because almost everyone is on it and it's cheap. The die-hard's are notoriously unreliable though. They've seen it all before so missing one smaller show isn't a big deal. Plus the very fact that they sit behind their PC's and play expert instead of actually getting out and BECOMING an expert says it all there (not a dig at anyone, again, just a fact of life).

You market to the masses and the die-hard's will follow along if you've done a good enough job.

I don't think myself or any other promoter is BLAMING anyone for a lack of interest. I'm simply investigating what fans on here would like to see from a show and what would make them want to go. I'm attempting to cater shows towards all kinds of fans, which is why I'm involved in this discussion. The only thing I've ever said negative regarding posters on here is that sometimes there are those who seem to like to spend alot of time complaining about a lack of a scene in Ireland, but most of whom haven't been bothered to attend a show in some time, which means they don't really know what the scene is all about. All I've done is encouraged those to attend local shows is all.

leggo

Wasn't particularly directed at you dude. I've no idea what NLW does/doesn't do these days, to be honest, so I couldn't criticise you even if I wanted to. Just my thoughts based on reading this thread in general and what I've seen/done in the past.

The Cannibal

nlw_coleman wrote: »

As for all indy shows being 'the same old thing', wrestling is wrestling at the end of the day. You look at any wrestling show, anywhere, there's an opening match, there's a main event and all the stuff in between. Would u care to go into more detail about what you mean exactly? I'd be interested to hear more about this.

Okay, to expand on what I said. I'll try not to go into too many tangents.

Wrestling is wrestling, and at the end of everything it is going to end with two guys in the ring wrestling a match, but there is room for creativity within the format.

Even with the general format that indies use things could probably be done better. Like main events themselves.

You always have to have a main event, but when I look at Ireland over the last few years, there have been very few main events that I'd consider a true main event match.

What consists a main event on the Irish indy scene is usually two guys who can wrestle a good match, have probably wrestled a dozen times at different points in the card but have nothing else to them that makes that match a main event attraction. There is no blood feud or pitch to sell you on the main event. Sometimes it will be a title match or a gimmick match, but at this level those mean little if there is nothing behind them.

Unless you are someone like ROH who has spent years building up the prestige of their title, very few will buy a ticket for a main event that is just a title match. Some might go for gimmick matches but that is a short term thing and risks getting into the habit of feeling obligated to provide gimmick matches to keep these fans.

There is also no consistency in main events. Paddy Morrow and Shawn Maxer could main event a show in January, and then open the next show in February. No one is elevated above anyone else to be the face of a promotion and there is no focal point or momentum because the shows are all self contained.

I think every promotion should strive to at least have one big main story arc that goes from show to show and shapes the main events. I know it's difficult with no tv or online show etc but I think that 1 good story shouldn't be too hard to tell. Have 1 consistent main event face and 1 consistent main event heel and have them build a rivalry over a number of shows that is easily followable or can be summed up quickly to the uninitiated or radio hosts about why these guys hate each other. Then you pay it off after a while to hopefully a good house and move onto the next big rivalry. Most main events with current show formats only actually get promoted to the people who have already bought their tickets. The main event heel will cut a promo and then there'll be an intermission soon after. There needs to be more promoting of why a main event is worth your money to people who haven't bought the tickets. Main events almost get treated as an afterthought.

I think the Irish wrestlers need this, because at the moment they are all interchangeable. There is too much focus put onto "Come see live wrestling action!" but not enough on the personalities performing on the show. There are too many guys on even footing shifting up and down the card with no emotional investment in their persona. Most people probably wouldn't know most of the guys on the show at all and after attending probably wouldn't know that much more still other than they saw a decent "boo-yay" match that had nothing invested in it. This is one thing that I feel the certain US indies do far better than we do. A lot of their guys have succesfully cultivated a following of loyal fans on very little exposure.

After years of following the scene, I don't know anything about Paddy Morrow or his motivations other than he is a high flyer. Same with any other name on an Irish card. No one stands out because they are not promoted to stand out and there is no progression. If I went to see most of these guys in 04 it would probably be a very similar show only now they are more experienced in the ring.

So I guess I'm saying that the guys need to be fleshed out from being random interchangeable indy guys and maybe 1 of them needs to be elevated above the pack and be the face that connects everything together.

leggo

The Cannibal wrote: »

I think every promotion should strive to at least have one big main story arc that goes from show to show and shapes the main events.

You're judging independent wrestling while mindful of TV wrestling though. In doing so, you're ignoring the FANS' perception of how they view the card. The only people who would follow these storylines from show-to-show are the 10 or so people who are on boards. And even then it's very likely that they'll just poke holes in them for trying.

I mean, even look at FFPW. They post detailed reports of Sean South matches :P, I mean eh, their shows after they take place...and who pays attention to the storylines involved? The post-show discussion is ALWAYS 'looks like a good card'...and NEVER 'ooohh I'm looking forward to that Joey The Lips/Frankie Firestarter match for a shot at Harry Hoopdini at the next show!'. So it's wasted effort on their part.

I agree with running an angle in the local press. This worked pretty well when we used to do it in IwW. Even personally speaking, when I was involved in the Eamonn Darcy/Blanch Curse/Andy vs Bruiser angles it was brilliant to hear people quoting the story in places that we promoted before the show.

But running an angle in Drogheda that's going to be paid off in Naas just confuses and annoys the Drogheda fans and wastes people's time. Unless you have a solid structure in place (like IwW did in its heyday: GW's promote house shows, house shows promote SuperShows etc)...which nobody around today has the actual resources to do...then writing storylines is a purely masturbatory activity by a mark who wants to play booker without any idea of what purpose booking fulfills (i.e. selling tickets, merchandise, brand awareness)

I think the Irish wrestlers need this, because at the moment they are all interchangeable.

No they don't. If a guy is worried because he's in the main event in one show and the opener the next, then he's a MARK. If someone complained that they didn't have a 'running storyline' in a dressing room filled with true professionals, while NOT on TV, then he'd be laughed out of the building.

If you don't believe me, send your ideas into the likes of Lance Storm, Jim Cornette etc who run Q&A's on their blogs and see what they tell you.

Storylines are for TV. ANGLES can work if done for a spot show. But, as I said, you need resources and long-term planning. Right now, independent wrestling companies should only be worried about sales and getting people in the door. When they begin to turn a consistent enough profit to start planning long-term, THEN you can worry about the rest.

geeky

leggo wrote: »

You're judging independent wrestling while mindful of TV wrestling though. In doing so, you're ignoring the FANS' perception of how they view the card. The only people who would follow these storylines from show-to-show are the 10 or so people who are on boards. And even then it's very likely that they'll just poke holes in them for trying.

I mean, even look at FFPW. They post detailed reports of Sean South matches :P, I mean eh, their shows after they take place...and who pays attention to the storylines involved? The post-show discussion is ALWAYS 'looks like a good card'...and NEVER 'ooohh I'm looking forward to that Joey The Lips/Frankie Firestarter match for a shot at Harry Hoopdini at the next show!'. So it's wasted effort on their part.

I agree with running an angle in the local press. This worked pretty well when we used to do it in IwW. Even personally speaking, when I was involved in the Eamonn Darcy/Blanch Curse/Andy vs Bruiser angles it was brilliant to hear people quoting the story in places that we promoted before the show.

But running an angle in Drogheda that's going to be paid off in Naas just confuses and annoys the Drogheda fans and wastes people's time. Unless you have a solid structure in place (like IwW did in its heyday: GW's promote house shows, house shows promote SuperShows etc)...which nobody around today has the actual resources to do...then writing storylines is a purely masturbatory activity by a mark who wants to play booker without any idea of what purpose booking fulfills (i.e. selling tickets, merchandise, brand awareness)



No they don't. If a guy is worried because he's in the main event in one show and the opener the next, then he's a MARK. If someone complained that they didn't have a 'running storyline' in a dressing room filled with true professionals, while NOT on TV, then he'd be laughed out of the building.

If you don't believe me, send your ideas into the likes of Lance Storm, Jim Cornette etc who run Q&A's on their blogs and see what they tell you.

Storylines are for TV. ANGLES can work if done for a spot show. But, as I said, you need resources and long-term planning. Right now, independent wrestling companies should only be worried about sales and getting people in the door. When they begin to turn a consistent enough profit to start planning long-term, THEN you can worry about the rest.

You've made a good point, but you'll never get people in the door more than twice by doing the same indy one-off format. Taking your view to its logical conclusion, the ideal promotion should run around the country trying to hype up each event as a once-off experience (presumably sticking to the same card/outcomes a la IWW). How can you develop a consistent audience if you're serving the same product week in week out? You'll just end up treading water.

Independent shows can develop storylines without TV, though it's hard. A tried and tested way is to run in the same small geographical area, helping to ensure that the same people are coming back to watch and remember what happened last week/month - Smoky Mountain, Rampage, and ECW did this during periods that they weren't on TV. The alternative, of course, is video packages before shows... it takes editing and a projector, but it'll help educate the audience. At least then kids wouldn't look at the IWW announcer in total confusion when he mentions the 'Zero Gravity title'.

Gerard.C

leggo wrote: »

You're judging independent wrestling while mindful of TV wrestling though. In doing so, you're ignoring the FANS' perception of how they view the card. The only people who would follow these storylines from show-to-show are the 10 or so people who are on boards. And even then it's very likely that they'll just poke holes in them for trying.

I mean, even look at FFPW. They post detailed reports of Sean South matches :P, I mean eh, their shows after they take place...and who pays attention to the storylines involved? The post-show discussion is ALWAYS 'looks like a good card'...and NEVER 'ooohh I'm looking forward to that Joey The Lips/Frankie Firestarter match for a shot at Harry Hoopdini at the next show!'. So it's wasted effort on their part.

I agree with running an angle in the local press. This worked pretty well when we used to do it in IwW. Even personally speaking, when I was involved in the Eamonn Darcy/Blanch Curse/Andy vs Bruiser angles it was brilliant to hear people quoting the story in places that we promoted before the show.

But running an angle in Drogheda that's going to be paid off in Naas just confuses and annoys the Drogheda fans and wastes people's time. Unless you have a solid structure in place (like IwW did in its heyday: GW's promote house shows, house shows promote SuperShows etc)...which nobody around today has the actual resources to do...then writing storylines is a purely masturbatory activity by a mark who wants to play booker without any idea of what purpose booking fulfills (i.e. selling tickets, merchandise, brand awareness)



No they don't. If a guy is worried because he's in the main event in one show and the opener the next, then he's a MARK. If someone complained that they didn't have a 'running storyline' in a dressing room filled with true professionals, while NOT on TV, then he'd be laughed out of the building.

If you don't believe me, send your ideas into the likes of Lance Storm, Jim Cornette etc who run Q&A's on their blogs and see what they tell you.

Storylines are for TV. ANGLES can work if done for a spot show. But, as I said, you need resources and long-term planning. Right now, independent wrestling companies should only be worried about sales and getting people in the door. When they begin to turn a consistent enough profit to start planning long-term, THEN you can worry about the rest.

There isnt enough detail of Sean South matches here. He's just lovely

The Cannibal

I'm not saying Irish wrestlers need consistency and story development because they are marks for it (a term I hate by that way), I am saying they need it because it is beneficial for them. They already know how to work a match. They need to develop skills on working a program, cutting promos, being a personality, all are things that will get them further bookings elsewhere if developed. We should be much like a territory developing these guys to be more well rounded than the other countless indy wrestlers around the world who can already do what they do in a wrestling ring. The up and down the card thing wasn't applied to the wrestlers but more the fans. How is anyone who attends regular shows supposed to get behind someone if how they are handled is not consistent show to show? With the way things are booked no one becomes a draw past their own parents. I think a lot of these guys could be getting bookings abroad a lot faster than they have been.

As for the longer angles/spot shows argument, we always disagree on that because we are on polar opposite viewpoints of the spectrum, but all of what I have said has been achieved elsewhere on a regular basis with no TV. There is a multitude of alternative media out there today that go far beyond tv. I think your method is good for the goals you'd want to achieve to make a promotion profitable but it has a ceiling. I think the method I present is also good. It requires a ton more work but no one gets anywhere without the work.