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2010 New Nissan Leaf .. would you buy one ?

  • 02-08-2009 12:17pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,025
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    YOKOHAMA, Japan (Reuters) - Nissan Motor Co took the wraps off its much-awaited electric car on Sunday, naming the hatchback "Leaf" and taking a step toward its goal of leading the industry in the zero-emissions field. "We celebrate today the start of a new chapter of our company's life,". Nissan is aiming to introduce it in the market next year. It would go on sale in Japan, Europe and USA.

    Nissan’s director of product planning, said the cost per mile is 4 cents, compare that to the 13 cents a mile you’ll pay in a car that gets 30 mpg. Perry says the car will cost about 90 cents to charge if you plug it in off-peak.


    7898627_4ffbdcdb94.jpg

    Quick Facts
    160 KM range
    90 c to fill up
    80% charge in 30 minutes
    Here next year for ~20K

    Some myths about electric cars

    http://paultan.org/archives/2009/08/02/nissan-leaf-160km-range-production-electric-car/



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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,438 El Guapo!
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    It doesnt look too bad but I personally still wouldn't buy an electric car! :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,132 unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!
    ✭✭✭✭


    90 cents to charge and 4 cents per mile? That gives it a range of 22.5 miles. Either the range is indeed that pathetic or someone is lying about the costs :rolleyes: :mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,441 jesus_thats_gre
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    90 cents to charge if you plug it in off-peak

    Am guessing it costs a fair bit more to charge it during peak hours.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,461 Max_Damage
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    Electric cars are rubbish. They always have been rubbish, and they always will be.

    Hydrogen is the future. At least you can still retain an internal combustion engine with hydrogen.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 896 nialler
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    Internal Combustion with hydrogen?

    All cars will be electrical whether we like it or not, they'll be using compressed hydrogen to power fuel cells which will then power your electric car.

    That's the future ;-)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,461 Max_Damage
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    nialler wrote: »
    Internal Combustion with hydrogen?

    All cars will be electrical whether we like it or not, they'll be using compressed hydrogen to power fuel cells which will then power your electric car.

    That's the future ;-)

    BMW Hydrogen 7


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,044 AugustusMaximus
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    Max_Damage wrote: »

    Not near as efficient in comparison to a hydrogen fuel cell - electric motor setup due to heat loss of an internal combustion engine.

    The exhaust off of that BMW is also water vapour which in itself is a green house gas so you're not really solving the problem at all. Exhaust off of a fuel cell is liquid water.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,461 Max_Damage
    ✭✭✭


    The exhaust off of that BMW is also water vapour which in itself is a green house gas so you're not really solving the problem at all. Exhaust off of a fuel cell is liquid water.

    What's the difference? It's all H2O


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,044 AugustusMaximus
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    Max_Damage wrote: »
    What's the difference? It's all H2O

    Water vapour is what you see coming out of a kettle. It goes into the atmosphere and traps heat like CO2.

    Liquid water will run along the ground and do nothing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,456 Mr Benevolent
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    90 cents to charge and 4 cents per mile?

    4c per mile is cost of ownership, it's not a range figure.
    Electric cars are rubbish. They always have been rubbish, and they always will be.

    Denial, Rationalisation, Acceptance. Ah humans, they're always terrified of the unknown :rolleyes: In twenty years people will laugh out loud at our ridiculously stone age petrol technology.
    water vapour which in itself is a green house gas so you're not really solving the problem at all

    Must... contain... laughter... :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:eek::eek::rolleyes:

    Accept the electric car and save yourselves a lot of time guys. It's not going to go away in our lifetime.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,461 Max_Damage
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    Well I'd rather a good ol' fashioned ICE than a poxy fuel cell (or electric) thing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,044 AugustusMaximus
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    Confab wrote: »


    Must... contain... laughter... :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:eek::eek::rolleyes:

    Accept the electric car and save yourselves a lot of time guys. It's not going to go away in our lifetime.

    Where did I complain about the electric car ?


    And explain why hydrogen being burned in an internal combustion engine won't add to water vapour in the atmosphere ? Yes, it won't linger in the atmosphere near as long as CO2, but in comparison to a hydrogen fuel cell, it will add to global warming more.


    And anways, what good is the electric car when the bulk of electricity in this country is still generated from fossil fuels. Running electric cars off of fossil fuel generated electricity is prob worse for the environment than just driving fossil fuel powered cars.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,186 L1011
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    Confab wrote: »
    Denial, Rationalisation, Acceptance. Ah humans, they're always terrified of the unknown :rolleyes: In twenty years people will laugh out loud at our ridiculously stone age petrol technology.

    We were being told that in 1990!

    In twenty years time, electric cars will still have pathetic range, still have batteries made out of extremely nasty heavy metals that require very complicated recycling when they life-expire, still require complicated charging, etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,025 zod
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    MYOB wrote: »
    We were being told that in 1990!

    In twenty years time, electric cars will still have pathetic range, still have batteries made out of extremely nasty heavy metals that require very complicated recycling when they life-expire, still require complicated charging, etc.


    EEStor may change things

    http://news.google.ie/news?pz=1&ned=en_ie&hl=en&q=EEStor+




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,456 Mr Benevolent
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    MYOB wrote: »
    We were being told that in 1990!

    Yup, and it's almost 20 years later. The Leaf is going to be big. Very big.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,701 Sids Not
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    9 ltr V8 petrol with a supercharger..6mpg..thats my future...:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,186 L1011
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    Confab wrote: »
    Yup, and it's almost 20 years later. The Leaf is going to be big. Very big.

    Except its not. Its going to have the same problems as every other electric car sold in the past 20 years.

    In that 20 years the fuel consumption of an average car has dropped far more than the range of an electric car has risen...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,180 Interceptor
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    I'd rather be dragged behind a Land Rover than drive a Nissan Leak. Electricity is fine for making smoothies and charging my i-Pod, but it'll never be good enough to run my motorbike...

    'cptr


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,180 Interceptor
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    MYOB wrote: »
    In that 20 years the fuel consumption of an average car has dropped..

    Isn't it a pity that we didn't get this sorted sooner? There'd be loads of oil left and we wouldn't need to be faffing about with batteries and Toyota-bleeding-Priuses.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,132 unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!
    ✭✭✭✭


    MYOB wrote: »
    We were being told that in 1990!

    In twenty years time, electric cars will still have pathetic range, still have batteries made out of extremely nasty heavy metals that require very complicated recycling when they life-expire, still require complicated charging, etc.

    +1

    We were told in 1973 that oil was about to run out. Nearly 40 years later now and we have more known oil reserves than back then. Internal combustion engines using fossil fuels are gonna be with us for another year or two, or a hundred :D


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,025 zod
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    but it'll never be good enough to run my motorbike...
    'cptr

    http://www.autoblog.com/2009/02/04/mission-one-ev-sport-bike-unveiled-150-mph-150-mile-range/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,044 AugustusMaximus
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    unkel wrote: »
    +1

    We were told in 1973 that oil was about to run out. Nearly 40 years later now and we have more known oil reserves than back then. Internal combustion engines using fossil fuels are gonna be with us for another year or two, or a hundred :D

    The amount of oil finds is slowing down though and most people think that peak oil isn't far off.

    The only thing that is putting peak oil off is that as the price of oil increases, previously uneconomically viable oil fields have become viable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,132 unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!
    ✭✭✭✭


    Confab wrote: »
    4c per mile is cost of ownership, it's not a range figure.

    Nonsense. Can nobody do a simple sum anymore? Let's take some extremely optimistic figures. We'll buy an electric car for 25k, own it for 5 years and 50k miles and sell it for half the new price. That 25c per mile, and that is just the depreciation. The total cost of ownership is a lot more than that per mile.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,186 L1011
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    The amount of oil finds is slowing down though and most people think that peak oil isn't far off.

    The only thing that is putting peak oil off is that as the price of oil increases, previously uneconomically viable oil fields have become viable.

    And thats what we were being told in 1973 too though!

    We've also got the ability to make diesel from natural gas now.

    People also need to remember where we get our electricity *from* in Ireland.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,132 unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!
    ✭✭✭✭


    The amount of oil finds is slowing down though and most people think that peak oil isn't far off.

    The only thing that is putting peak oil off is that as the price of oil increases, previously uneconomically viable oil fields have become viable.

    Yup. I'm not in denial, we will run out some day. Not for a long time though :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,044 AugustusMaximus
    ✭✭✭


    unkel wrote: »
    Yup. I'm not in denial, we will run out some day. Not for a long time though :)

    We prob won't run out for hundreds of years.

    The problem will arise when oil production starts to fall. And I'd say its not actually that far off.

    Far worse than this though is the growing car sales in China and India.

    The problems associated with an increase in oil demand will have far far more effects than any small decrease in production over the next 20 years.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,025 zod
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    And anways, what good is the electric car when the bulk of electricity in this country is still generated from fossil fuels. Running electric cars off of fossil fuel generated electricity is prob worse for the environment than just driving fossil fuel powered cars.

    wrong. common myth

    also the Grid will get cleaner as we switch to renewables .. bringing the cars with it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,132 unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!
    ✭✭✭✭


    Far worse than this though is the growing car sales in China and India.

    Agreed. Maybe we should make them drive these crappy electric cars :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,025 zod
    ✭✭✭


    We prob won't run out for hundreds of years.

    The problem will arise when oil production starts to fall. And I'd say its not actually that far off.

    Far worse than this though is the growing car sales in China and India.

    The problems associated with an increase in oil demand will have far far more effects than any small decrease in production over the next 20 years.

    Yes.. it's called peak oil and its around the corner , what will happen to the price of petrol and deisel when we hit peak oil ?

    I wonder whats the TCO of an ICE based car when oil is at $400 dollars a barrel ? I'd imagine the maths will be VERY simple.




    penny beginning to drop yet ?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,044 AugustusMaximus
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    zod wrote: »
    Yes.. it's called peak oil and its around the corner , what will happen to the price of petrol and deisel when we hit peak oil ?

    I wonder whats the TCO of an ICE based car when oil is at $400 dollars a barrel ? I'd imagine the maths will be VERY simple.




    penny beginning to drop yet ?

    400 dollar barrels of oil will not be created by peak oil. They will be created by the dramatic increase in oil demand fueled by china, india and brazil.

    The increase in short to medium term fuel demand will prob far outstrip the fall off in in short to medium term oil production.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,044 AugustusMaximus
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    zod wrote: »
    wrong. common myth

    also the Grid will get cleaner as we switch to renewables .. bringing the cars with it.

    Any idea how this would workout with oil fuel stations as we have only one coal station here in Ireland.

    In addition to this though, you have to factor in the additional CO2 emissions due to the large battery manufacture.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,456 Mr Benevolent
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    unkel wrote: »
    Nonsense. Can nobody do a simple sum anymore? Let's take some extremely optimistic figures. We'll buy an electric car for 25k, own it for 5 years and 50k miles and sell it for half the new price. That 25c per mile, and that is just the depreciation. The total cost of ownership is a lot more than that per mile.

    I was quoting Nissan, not making up my own figures.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,819 peasant
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    Leaving aside all environemental aspects, oil is actually far too precious and important to squander it in wholly unefficient means of personal transport until it runs out.

    Without oil we would simply starve. And no, that's not because the supermarket delivery truck wouldn't come anymore, but because it would have nothing to deliver.

    The only way we can feed all the humans on the planet (and the billions more that are to come) is by unnaturally high levels of food production. These are only possible with the use of fertilisers and pesticides made from ...oil... and produced with machinery powered with ...oil ... (electric combine harvester anyone?).

    Yeees, alternatively powered cars are probly going to be less "fun" than their petrol/diesel powered counterparts ...but imagine how much fun it would be to have to live off whatever your back garden produces when you work it with a hoe and elbow grease :D


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,381 Solitaire
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Blame hypercapitalism for forcing the poor and the developing world to use older, vastly less efficient engines!

    Just look at the new Golf... well over 40mpg for a 160bhp petrol. And most new diesels are now going well past 60mpg.

    The irony of "electric" cars is that they're doomed to become an evolutionary dead-end. The technology has great potential, and over the next decade we're looking at increases in metal-ion battery capacity and charging of a factor of 10-30 thanks to foamed silicon microfibre. And then there's ultracapacitors. But hydrogen-cell engines are already starting to appear, and may well beat ultracapacitance-based units to market dominance. The irony is that the same high-output electric motors are used to make either platform's vehicle actually move forwards - IIRC the Tesla and the Clarity use the same motor, they just quibble over how to provide it with juice. :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,407 G Luxel
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    This Leaf looks like a cross between a Quasqhai and a Note but I dont think its the first time they made an electric car. I do remember seeing a Nissan 2 seater, about the size of a Smart Car, smaller and narrower, driving around a few years ago. Electric cars are ok if you need to use them in your own area but are no good if you want to drive from Cork to Donegal if you have to recharge them somewhere for a few hours.
    As regards 1973, car engines were gigantic in the States than they are now and these analyists presumed that people would be buying 7 and 8 litres landyachts over the next 20 or 30 years when in fact the General and Ford downsized their models soon after, in the face of European and Japanese imports, to what they are today, 2 to 3 litre engines, still large by European standards.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,673 bladebrew
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    as g luxel just said the range is the problem,its fine for them to say the car has a 200 mile range but that is driving (i assume) like a nun,i think it was the tesla roadster that ingear in the times tested and found if you drive the car hard it uses a lot more power and reduces the range,
    i drive from cork to dublin a bit and afaik there isnt and electric car that can manage that distance,and the only towns left on that route are abbeyleix,cullahill and durrow,and they are soon to be bypassed,
    so unless they start building charging points on the motorway its going to be a long time before i try drive cork-dublin in an electric car!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,025 zod
    ✭✭✭


    bladebrew wrote: »
    so unless they start building charging points on the motorway its going to be a long time before i try drive cork-dublin in an electric car!
    G Luxel wrote: »
    but are no good if you want to drive from Cork to Donegal if you have to recharge them somewhere for a few hours.

    How about quicker than you can fill your tank ?




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,828 unklerosco
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    peasant wrote: »
    Yeees, alternatively powered cars are probly going to be less "fun" than their petrol/diesel powered counterparts ...but imagine how much fun it would be to have to live off whatever your back garden produces when you work it with a hoe and elbow grease :D

    Since when was driving a '99 Nissan Micra fun?? Bring on the electric cars... 70%(if not more) of people use a car to get from a-b, I don't think they'll care if its electric, petrol, wind or monkey powered(my fav!)

    Of all the people I know that drive only a handfull actually enjoy the drive, everyone else see's it as an alternative to sitting in the rain waiting for a bus. Elec cars will take off, for the everyday motorist they'll do fine.. For enthusiasts there'll always be petrol cars.. N sure, the more people that drive electric cars, the more petrol there is for us lot!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,186 L1011
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    zod wrote: »
    How about quicker than you can fill your tank ?



    The amount of flaws in that system is unreal

    Who pays to recondition the batteries as they start to wear down? How do you build a facility to safely store that number of batteries made out of extremely dangerous substances? How does a recharge station owner ensure they have enough capacity for expected demand spikes without being left with thousands of slowly discharging batteries at other times? Etc etc.

    also requires all cars to use a single battery format and have a standardised loading mechanism. Not going to happen.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,834 air
    ✭✭✭


    MYOB wrote: »
    The amount of flaws in that system is unreal

    Who pays to recondition the batteries as they start to wear down?
    I'd imagine the cost would be built into the recharge fee, ie divide capital cost by expected number of discharge cycles, add this onto the fill up fee.
    Hardly rocket science.
    MYOB wrote: »
    How do you build a facility to safely store that number of batteries made out of extremely dangerous substances?
    I'd imagine that you'd just design it to the appropriate standard, how do you think battery factories store batteries or indeed car manufacturers?

    MYOB wrote: »
    How does a recharge station owner ensure they have enough capacity for expected demand spikes without being left with thousands of slowly discharging batteries at other times?
    I'd imagine they would use load factor statistics and any other information that would be relevant, no different to a petrol station sizing it's tanks. Like any other real life system (phones, roads etc etc) it would be designed to meet demand 98% of the time or so, it's never economic to meet the demand of on exceptional day per year or whatever.

    MYOB wrote: »
    also requires all cars to use a single battery format and have a standardised loading mechanism. Not going to happen.
    Every car on the road already has a standard loading mechanism, it's called the filler neck. I dont think it's that much of a stretch to expect manufacturers to come together, decide on a standard battery voltage and physical form factor. Bigger vechiles would simply load more cells in at the refuelling station, they could all run in parallel.

    Any other questions?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,722 maidhc
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    People keep talking about range.

    In reality few people do 200 miles a day. If the TCO of an electric car is as low as people say, then why not just have one for commuting. It won't cost much, and your IC car can sit on the driveway until needed for longer journeys. It won't wear out, and will last 25 years!

    I'd love one of these for going to work. They would be fantastic in traffic and absolutely painless to drive.

    Also they are making progress on batteries. The Prius MkII has a tiny battery pack compared to the old one. In time I have no doubt but that you will end up "leasing" battery packs and just getting a new one slotted in at a fuel station when you run out of gas.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,186 L1011
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    air wrote: »
    I'd imagine the cost would be built into the recharge fee, ie divide capital cost by expected number of discharge cycles, add this onto the fill up fee.
    Hardly rocket science.

    So what happens when you get a 'recharge' from a dodgy operator who doesn't condition the batteries properly and you run out five miles down the road?
    air wrote: »
    I'd imagine that you'd just design it to the appropriate standard, how do you think battery factories store batteries or indeed car manufacturers?

    Generally a car manufacturer isn't charging batteries. The factories will have been built to extremely high health and safety levels.
    air wrote: »
    I'd imagine they would use load factor statistics and any other information that would be relevant, no different to a petrol station sizing it's tanks. Like any other real life system (phones, roads etc etc) it would be designed to meet demand 98% of the time or so, it's never economic to meet the demand of on exceptional day per year or whatever.

    Except a petrol station can meet the demands of an exceptional day by getting a tanker in. A battery station couldn't, without being left with thousands of extra batteries. If you can't meet the demand peaks, you leave drivers stranded.
    air wrote: »
    Every car on the road already has a standard loading mechanism, it's called the filler neck. I dont think it's that much of a stretch to expect manufacturers to come together, decide on a standard battery voltage and physical form factor. Bigger vechiles would simply load more cells in at the refuelling station, they could all run in parallel.

    This is an industry where manufacturers can't decide on a format for release keys for a car radio, or a single type of headlight to use. It IS too much of a stretch to expect them to standardise on something as critical to the overall design of the car as a battery format / bay / loading mechanism. Existing electric car manufacturers can't decide on a standard charging socket!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,025 zod
    ✭✭✭


    MYOB wrote: »
    The amount of flaws in that system is unreal

    Who pays to recondition the batteries as they start to wear down? How do you build a facility to safely store that number of batteries made out of extremely dangerous substances? How does a recharge station owner ensure they have enough capacity for expected demand spikes without being left with thousands of slowly discharging batteries at other times? Etc etc.

    also requires all cars to use a single battery format and have a standardised loading mechanism. Not going to happen.

    Better tell Israel that they're costing is all wrong ..

    Watch the video

    http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/shai_agassi_on_electric_cars.html

    http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssConsumerGoodsAndRetailNews/idUSL83052420081208


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 JHMEG
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    Interesting machine. Not the solution, but a step closer.

    Where electricity wins out over hydrogen is there is already a national infrastructure for the distribution of electricity. (Where hydrogen regains some ground is that it can be refuelled quickly)

    Oil is at $69 a barrel in the middle of the worst recession since the Great Depression. Think about what effect world economic recovery will have on the price.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,186 L1011
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    zod wrote: »

    17 charge spots? woopdie doo.

    The chances of this charging network remaining in place in 5 years time and still supporting modern electric vehicles then are minimal. Is the GM EV1 charging station network in California still extant? No.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,025 zod
    ✭✭✭


    MYOB wrote: »
    17 charge spots? woopdie doo.

    huh ? thats the pilot

    http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/05/better-place/

    The demonstration came six months after Better Place opened 17 EV charging stations in Tel Aviv, the first step in its plan to have 150,000 places to plug in throughout Israel by 2011. The company, which is working with Renault on an EV, also plans to have 100 battery swap stations in Israel by then. It’s a model the startup hopes to replicate in Denmark, Australia, California, Hawaii and other locations where it has forged alliances with governments and utilities to hasten the adoption of cars with cords.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,186 L1011
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    And I don't expect them to ever have more than those 17.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 JHMEG
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    zod wrote: »

    Just watched that video. It's excellent. Hope it works, they've certainly thought it out well enough. I like the oil in south Israel analogy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,132 unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!
    ✭✭✭✭


    MYOB wrote: »
    And I don't expect them to ever have more than those 17.

    10,000 by the end of this year and 100,000 by the end of next year in Israel alone sounds a bit ambitious alright :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 JHMEG
    ✭✭✭


    Today's paper
    Oil crunch 'will cripple recovery'

    Higher oil prices brought on by a rapid increase in demand and a stagnation, or even decline, in supply could blow any recovery off course,


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