Do Punk Bands "Sell Out" or Simply Attract Bigger Fanbases?

Motley Crue

Take Green Day.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYdcP-8C8VY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clIQtM3k-V4

Now the videos show relatively the same band, only about 15 years apart, and in that time the band have gone from an underground punk band to a massively successful mainstream rock/punk act

My question is does this mean that this band have essentially "sold out" of the essence of Punk or have they just brought it to a bigger audience and, in doing so, made it more accessible and easier to follow Punk Rock music. Should we like them, or hate them, for becomming the success they are?

dregin

It changes from band to band. Most pop punk bands are sellable....

Sellouts are bands that change their sound and compromise their beliefs just to fit in with the mainstream and I don't think Greenday did that.

They're still ****e these days :P

unreggd

Bands dont sell out

They choose career options


Thats what people dont understand. The music industry isnt about getting great music out to people, its about money. So if you want to keep going you have to make creative sacrifices

its their job, and their choice

the whole sell-out crap is bs

OLP

unreggd wrote: »

Bands dont sell out

They choose career options


Thats what people dont understand. The music industry isnt about getting great music out to people, its about money. So if you want to keep going you have to make creative sacrifices

its their job, and their choice

the whole sell-out crap is bs

... This is what's wrong with "music" these days.

People accepting the music insdustry. I can't even describe how ****ing stupid that post is. Music isn't about making money. The music industry is. If you let your music be dictated by an industry.

unreggd

OLP wrote: »

People accepting the music insdustry

How can you not accept it?
Its a necessity

Yes, they lose creative control, but theres no point in making amazing music if noone will hear it

The industry will always try to maximise profits

because, like I said, its all about money

I can't even describe how ****ing stupid that post is.
Music isn't about making money. The music industry is. If you let your music be dictated by an industry.

Do you even know what makes up the industry?
People like Producers, promotors, marketers, the labels, tour organisers

take all that away and every muscian in the world would be screwed

Sell-out is an elitist term coined by narrow-minded so called "music experts" who only like one genre, and promote their opinion that every other genre sucks, as fact

so theres uproar when a band/musician breaks away from their original genre/style for whatever reason

OLP

Because I don't have to accept it. People make music and money doesn't even come in to their minds, they make it because it feels good. It doesn't have to be about money.

Alot of punk bands are able to tour all over the world and break even, the only people involved are the band and local promoters, entirely cutting out the music industry and still being able to play to thousands of people and still break even.

The point of the punk music works is to cut out the music industry and encourage people to DO IT THEMSELVES

unreggd

Well whatever way you put it, its still their career

and if they're only breaking even, where are they gonna get money for living expenses?

Everyone will try to work towards promotion, signing to bigger labels etc

As good as they could do it themselves, they'd never get the exposure they would through the industry, and at the end of the day thats what they all want

and ive seen plenty of punk bands from the US, in tiny Dublin venues, where there'd be 2 bands from the US and one local band, but the tickets would be like 15 euro, and 50 people show

That'd barely cover the flight for one member, let alone all of them

I understand where you're comin from, I just think its a bit childish to rule out the whole industry

Asmodean

I'v become incredibally jaded with the whole punk scene. It seems to me if more than ten people like any particular band then said band are 'sellouts.'
Load of old **** if you ask me

unreggd

Its like that stupid, non-conformist forced originality

"I have to forcibly make myself 100% original to be my own person"

BS!!

lint316

Its a short career for most of them and I certainly don't work for free!! Its a hard industry to make money at the moment because of internet downloads. All this sellout millarkey is bollox. Sure The Ramones made attempts at main stream success and I don't hear anybody calling them sellouts!

Asmodean

"I have to forcibly make myself 100% original to be my own person"

Very true. Certain groups tend to hate people who are 'sheep' apparently. What these groups don't realise is that they themselves are part of a herd culture. Its only natural that every single walk of society will, and always has, fall in-line with an apparent 'group.' I have no problem whatsoever with this as long as I'm happy and doing what I consider to be my own thing. The problem I have is the people that fight tooth and nail to be 'different' by pissing all over other peoples opinions (which may often be derived logically) just because its the 'cool. non status quo' thing to do.

Lig OFE

the term "sell out" is if you change the bands ethos for money... i think wit green day they just grew up, they got families and that and just wanted more money... they retired from music and decided to make "green day, the product"
i think it is perfectly reasonable to make the music you want and make money.. when a company picks up a band coz they like them they shouldn't ask you to change... i think everyone needs some help too so maybe people can tell you something would sound better.. but when somebody tells you your sound has to be such a way and these are the songs you're playing and they just wave some money in your face thats the sell out bit.....

I'd say its fairly simple.

If an underground band is offered a cheque for a couple of mill to "sell out" as you say, I'm sure most find it hard to refuse.

Money talks at the end of the day.

whiterob81

Lig OFE wrote: »

the term "sell out" is if you change the bands ethos for money... i think wit green day they just grew up, they got families and that and just wanted more money... they retired from music and decided to make "green day, the product".

I'd have to disagree with you on this one. I think american idiot was far better than anything they did on lookout records, i still get the impression off them that they still enjoy creating music.

In my opinion, selling out has more to do with a band compromising their ideals or doing something they're uncomfortable with in order to achieve success, rather than changing to a different style of music. For example, I'd consider it selling out if rise against were to license their music to advertise bacon more so than if they were to release a synth pop album.

Also, I don't really see why a band should have to turn down a major label offer. They're musicians and someone's going to pay them to create music, why shouldn't they take them up on the offer.

This might be a sweeping generalisation but I've found that people who shout sell out the loudest generally still live at home with their parents or have never had any real money trouble.

Motley Crue

whiterob81 wrote: »

This might be a sweeping generalisation but I've found that people who shout sell out the loudest generally still live at home with their parents or have never had any real money trouble.

Very true

Aridstarling

WhiteRob got it right, "selling out" to me is more about ideals as opposed to any particular musical trait. If you lose creative control then you've "sold out" or if you compromise on what you believe (the Rise Against example was perfect) or what made you start playing music in the first place. Its a frame of mind.

unreggd

Aridstarling wrote: »

WhiteRob got it right, "selling out" to me is more about ideals as opposed to any particular musical trait. If you lose creative control then you've "sold out" or if you compromise on what you believe (the Rise Against example was perfect) or what made you start playing music in the first place. Its a frame of mind.

But its your job

If you refuse anything other than 100% creative control, you wont have a job = you wont have money

Just because some bands sacrifice some control, doesnt mean they wanted to

You cant work you're job [any job] and 100% your terms if you want maximum financial success

Sids Not

Great programme on BBC4 last night about RoughTrade...if you ever wanted to see "punk" groups sell-out, that was the programme, proving that to 99% of them inc. SLF, Pistols etc..., it was all about ££££££...anyone who stuck with RT didnt really "make it".....when they got their break they fcuked off to the big record companies....

Doctor J

I thought Green Day putting out a concept album was so anti-"punk" that it was, in fact, the most punk thing they ever did

Asmodean

I think it boils down to this.
If you're still in it for the music you haven't sold out. We all develop and grow as individuals, why not as a band? If a band decides to take a different direction with their music because they want to (and not for the money) then you can't call them sell-outs just because some ould crusty heads don't like the fact that said band hasn't sounded the same for the past twenty years. The thing that really pisses me off is all this "ah jesus they used to be ****ing brilliant before they brought out that album etc etc"
No-one has taken your old records and burned them for christs sake, just keep listening to their material that you did enjoy and whisht up complaining.

whiterob81

spent ages doing up a reply about how punk isn't as diy as people make out because most of the bands that popularised punk were on major labels (sex pistols, slf, ramones).

I also said how most bands would take the major label deal because they have rent to pay and it just makes more sense to try and expand your audience rather than bankrupting yourself trying to record and release an album off your own back that you won't be able to make your money back on because you can't get distribution for it.

I then went on to say that greenday didn't really sell out because when they signed with a major label, they never actually changed their style. there's very little difference between Kerplunk and Dookie. Better production and that's it. Also, Sick of it all continued in a similar vein after they signed to a major

I'd written all this but then hit the log out instead of the submit reply button.

gah

whiterob81

Asmodean wrote: »

No-one has taken your old records and burned them for christs sake, just keep listening to their material that you did enjoy and whisht up complaining.

Very good point

Mr. Frost

I think bands like Greenday have sold out tbh. You gotta ask why they started playing in the first place. Was it about money? I doubt it, money didn't make them pick up a guitar for the first time or make them discover music (somewhat romaticized I know!).

Their music has suffered of late, they're muck. It seems they're mainstream to sell albums now and are not representing what punk's all about, at all. Anyway, that's my 2c.

Aridstarling

unreggd wrote: »

But its your job

If you refuse anything other than 100% creative control, you wont have a job = you wont have money

Just because some bands sacrifice some control, doesnt mean they wanted to

You cant work you're job [any job] and 100% your terms if you want maximum financial success

This is the point here. If you priorotise "maximum financial success" over maximum musical acheivement, then you've sold out. I guess that is what it comes down to in my mind at least.

OLP

The main point to take from this thread is that alot of people posting have absolutely no concept of how a DIY Punk scene works and don't seem to be able to accept that not everyone makes music with the goal of making money.

bombidol

Also bear in mind the sheer amount of cash it takes to be in a band who actually want to do more than play the local ****e hole every few weeks. Do that for a while and you will want what you consider a fair amount for your efforts.

seanybiker

Asmodean wrote: »

Very true. Certain groups tend to hate people who are 'sheep' apparently. What these groups don't realise is that they themselves are part of a herd culture. Its only natural that every single walk of society will, and always has, fall in-line with an apparent 'group.' I have no problem whatsoever with this as long as I'm happy and doing what I consider to be my own thing. The problem I have is the people that fight tooth and nail to be 'different' by pissing all over other peoples opinions (which may often be derived logically) just because its the 'cool. non status quo' thing to do.

+1.
They all try so hard to be themselves that a lot of them end up been the same. Its funny

whiterob81

OLP wrote: »

The main point to take from this thread is that alot of people posting have absolutely no concept of how a DIY Punk scene works and don't seem to be able to accept that not everyone makes music with the goal of making money.

I don't think the singular goal of making music is to make money either. I think it's about creating something that you can be proud of and something that can give you a release from the everyday world. I think that's the great thing about music.
However, I do think that if a band wants to survive it's going to need cash. I personally know a few people that have basically bankrupted themselves over the years trying to self finance and self release their own music so I've nothing against any band that takes a major label deal.
Also, I think if you're going to be that precious about how or who distributes your music, why are you even releasing it at all?
I think the DIY thing is just an image for a lot of bands. Take Fugazi as an example. They have this whole thing about not charging more than a fiver to get in to their shows and only going with local promoters because they want to "keep it real". But according to one promoter that's dealt with them, they'll still get paid as much as one of the bigger playing over here but the promoter that's bringing them over has to take the hit financially

lee_arama

That sounds familiar. Once had a big name band here who decided that they wanted the entrance fee lowered on the day but refused to lower their own fee then. Maddening.

Anyway, what about the new wave of punk? Offspring, Green Day, Linkin Park? These are bands that still have the punkesque feel about them but are far removed from the early acts such as SLF etc? Should that matter much? After all are there still so many of the social injustices affecting us all the way they were in the 80s? Well yes and no. We're all generally better off now than our parents were but it's still subjective.

Anyway, I just decided to post since I'd like to mention that ONOFF, SERPICO and SCUBA DICE will be playing in Cyprus Avenue, Cork, on April 24th.

See the gig forum for actual details.

dregin

For me, punk is an attitude, not a sound..... but jesus h. christ. Linkin Park? Punk?????????????

*CRY*

Asmodean

To a 'true' punk what is this whole 'attitude' that they so vehemently want to express. Not being smart but any punks I've ever met seem to consider a 'holier than thou' mantra as the basis for their entire attitude. Ironic as wasn't punk originally established as an anti-conformity type movement.
IMO the list of rules and requirements to call yourself a ' true punk' nowadays completely negates everything the scene was originally born for.

OLP

Simple attitude really, be yourself and think for yourself. In my opinion anyway. There's a great Hardcore/Punk scene in Galway. If you wanna meet some cool people and in my opinion "True Punks" as you put just go along to a couple of shows.

ANarcho-Munk

whiterob81 wrote: »

But according to one promoter that's dealt with them, they'll still get paid as much as one of the bigger playing over here but the promoter that's bringing them over has to take the hit financially

But isn't that what it's about, surely? Bringing power back to the bands rather than being ripped off by big promoters?

Some of you are completly missing the point of DIY.

whiterob81

ANarcho-Munk wrote: »

But isn't that what it's about, surely? Bringing power back to the bands rather than being ripped off by big promoters?

Some of you are completly missing the point of DIY.

But that's the problem, they never deal with large promoters. They always deal with smaller promoters like u;mack who are bringing bands over out of their own pocket. The promoters they are dealing with are meant to be like minded individuals with a shared love of the same type of music who are operating on a DIY basis, like Fugazi, and Fugazi are ripping them off. Personally, I think it's complete bs to espouse a DIY ethic when you're ripping off the little guy that's going out of his way to support you and your music just so that they can get a larger profit. How are the tactics they're using any different from the way a major label would run. I think it goes against a lot of the principles they're supposed to stand for and in my book is selling out.

whiterob81

Asmodean wrote: »

To a 'true' punk what is this whole 'attitude' that they so vehemently want to express. Not being smart but any punks I've ever met seem to consider a 'holier than thou' mantra as the basis for their entire attitude. Ironic as wasn't punk originally established as an anti-conformity type movement.
IMO the list of rules and requirements to call yourself a ' true punk' nowadays completely negates everything the scene was originally born for.

this is very true. I always thought punk was meant to be about musical freedom and I think you can still see that with bands that branch out into different genres and experiment with new styles, for example ska and rockabilly bands.
But like you said, "True Punks" are some of the most musically narrow minded and conformist people that you can meet.

OLP

The whole "Punk is about musical freedom" stuff is bull****. Punk is about complete Freedom. Most of the new punk bands I listen to sound pretty similar to the old punk bands I listen to. But that's the type of music I like.