Reloading. Is it going to be allowed?

bunny shooter

Reading a comment by IWM in another thread got me thinking ................

Are we going to be allowed to legally reload anytime soon ?

Discuss..................

My local firearms dealers reckons not a hope as Justice are worried over insurance complications to do with powder storage :rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

Doubtful at best..Nanny Aherne doesnt want us kiddies to get into reloading.Sure the CIRA might nick it all to make nasty bombs!
Seeing that now all of a sudden handguns are being nicked almost IMO too conviently after it being proved that they were the least stolen firearms.After all doesnt that "prove " to the powers that be that no one of the "mere civillians" can be trusted with firearms storage?[Excluding of course Gardai whose duty firearms are nicked as well]

Seeing that he is now inviting suspected terrorists who are big into infidel shooting to come and live in Ireland after their Club Gitmo holidays,and forwarding letters for convicted terrorists of the same lot who are busily nicking guns around the land.You would wonderWTF is going on at all???
Reloading will stay as secret as the dark arts to us gunowners here for a long while yet.

It wasn't me!

I've heard, unofficially, that there will be clear and distinct procedure with regard to reloading by next winter. It's neither simple nor convenient though, in the outline given to me, so hopefully there's a change somewhere along the way and they concede that we're not all lunatics and can be trusted to do the things our neighbours in every civilised country in the world take for granted.

Sparks

Can't see Aherne being too much of a supporter of it - because I can't see him doing anything that won't help him keep his seat. The DoJ themselves, however, I can see being amenable to it, if not willing to just say "off you go lads, have fun".

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

Can't see Aherne being too much of a supporter of it - because I can't see him doing anything that won't help him keep his seat. The DoJ themselves, however, I can see being amenable to it, if not willing to just say "off you go lads, have fun".

I'd be perfectly happy to install secure storage for powder and primers, within reason. If a similar system to that in Britain were in place, I think it'd be great. It's accessible to everyone and we all end up better shooters (;)) as a result, so here's hoping. If it gets put in place, there may well be a place for a 6BR in my cabinet somewhere.

Sparks

The secure storage would only be one third of it though IWM - you'd also need a suitable workspace (though frankly, that's your health and safter so it's just a good idea ), and the other third would be being certified and taking courses in reloading. Put all three together and I could see the DoJ being sympathetic - but I don't honestly think the Minister would care one way or the other.

It wasn't me!

I know a good and secure workspace I can use, completely ventilated and well designed for the purpose, so that's not an issue.

With regard to certification, I have absolutely no issue with that, as long as it's all clearly above board and legitimate and there's direction from the Department as to how to go about certification and such. I'd do it anyway were it not a requirement.

Trojan911

bunny shooter wrote: »

Are we going to be allowed to legally reload anytime soon ?

Don't know the answer but, from my shooting days in London my buddy used to reload all his 9mm and sell some to me & the lads.

I wasn't a fan of reloads as I found them smokier and dirtier for my hand gun and quite a few misfired. Factory loads were the best, albeit a bit more expensive.

It wasn't me!

Trojan911 wrote: »

Don't know the answer but, from my shooting days in London my buddy used to reload all his 9mm and sell some to me & the lads.

I wasn't a fan of reloads as I found them smokier and dirtier for my hand gun and quite a few misfired. Factory loads were the best, albeit a bit more expensive.

Don't mean to criticise your friend, but perhaps it was his skill that caused problems? It's widely accepted that the best is gotten out of a centrefire rifle only by reloading, and I've heard pistol shooters say the same of their own ammo. Of course, part of the problem could be that his load didn't suit your gun, but misfires and such sound more like dodgy primers and components.

ivanthehunter

Well if they're going to take away pistols under the premise that all pistols are bad and you (the public) only have a genuine need for rifles, then let them please include all auxiliaries to this sport as suitable to the modern rifle shooter./

Its only laughable to assume that P&P will be used by Republican groups at this stage.. but be sure of this if a formula is ironed out to allow Johny punch-clock to reload it will be a long winded affair that will only serve to inflate some minsters ego to the Nth degree.

Educational courses about reloading!!! Dont make me laugh, firstly they'd be better of to hold courses for general firearm use. And TBH they'd get better value in running courses on how not to burn petrol....


I for one would like to think that this will bring the sport to a new level of sporting maturity.. Heres to a bright future Lads

Trojan911

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Don't mean to criticise your friend, but perhaps it was his skill that caused problems?

You could be right, but he knew his stuff & was well experienced. He won many pistol competitions & his two handguns were valued at around £8k-£10k each. They were tailor made to suit his hand. He also had a civilian version of the MP5 (semi auto) with a laser sighting at the time. What a little cracker that was.

cavan shooter

I' love to see it but honestly dont think it would happen,:( cans of propellent floating around with and access to primers etc. Its not what you can do with it legitimately but what can be done by others who dont want to up hold the law.

On a weekly basis we here of pipe bombs etc been found, viable devices so I cant see the state making it easier to access the various components required by a icriminal. Now I know that viable explosives can be easily made with readily accessible domestic and horticultural products, but litterally with propellents it does exactly what it says on the tin.

By the way dont store propellents in safes (not a good idea) if your house went on fire.

Sparks

Thing is, propellants do exactly what is says on the tin - ie, propell. They're not high explosives. Frankly, any engineering or chemistry student (and about half the brighter leaving cert chemistry students, as the ceiling of every chemistry lab in Ireland can attest) can put together something far more dangerous than propellant powder.

Grizzly 45

Very true about the chemistry lab ceilings in colleges Sparks:D
However,while technically a propellant they can explode when confined in a suitable container,like a pice of end threaded pipe.and knowing the idiots and criminals out there ,they have a tendancy to abuse everything ligit to their nefarious ends here in ol Ireland.Hence the total fear and paranoia in the Republic of anything that goes Bang or fizz.:rolleyes:

Reloading and misfires.
My cousin does alot of reloading for hunting.I asked him about the ecnomics of reloading 9mm ammo.Looking from a European peerspective,he said you would be nuts to do so,when you can buy somthing like 10K of rounds for somthing like 300 Euros,"at Frankonias rippoff prices".Pointed out to him the rippoff prices of a box here of 9mm.
In his opinion you would want to be punching around 10k worth of ammo per three months,and have nothing better to do with your life than reload ammo for it to justify the ecnomics in it on that scale.Or be flogging reloads to others.Which opens another can of worms on product liability.
IEven he said after 10 plus years reloading now that given a choice your factory ammo is always going to be better,in quality control,components etc.Reloading only justifies the expense,if you are working up loads for specific rifles and calibres[usually obscure ,or old units,or total precision units].But for mass firing in pistol or clay competitions not really.

cavan shooter

Sparks wrote: »

Thing is, propellants do exactly what is says on the tin - ie, propell. They're not high explosives. Frankly, any engineering or chemistry student (and about half the brighter leaving cert chemistry students, as the ceiling of every chemistry lab in Ireland can attest) can put together something far more dangerous than propellant powder.

In a way your right in that they produce gas volume to propel, Propellents can still be classed as explosives depending on what was used to manufacture them. And you shouldnt think because its a propellent its safer than HE

Check any Safety Data Sheet from Hodgdons etc and you will see that some of the popular powders which are used for reloading are manufactured from explosive products including NG.
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Winchester%20Smokeless%20MSDS.pdf
and here
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/ADI-H4227-Varget-Retumbo.pdf


Others can be classed as pyrotechnic compositions but do not let that fool you into thinking its safer.

I have used high explosives, pyrotechnic charges, and deflagrating compounds such as black powder in my career and the most frightening to use was black powder

You dont need high explosive to cause damage (High explosive is about shock and shattering effect) an you need (an other HE to set it off), deflagrating agents such as gun powders and propellents have a high gas volume and unfortunately heat and a flame can set them off. Again look at the SDS sheets and see there sensitivity.

Hence its important as I stated in the post never store propellents in a confined safe. Its one thing bringing in reloading and I suppose it is by all accounts easy to set up to do it right, but I suggest these powders should be treated with a little bit more respect than they get...

civdef

I was at a conference last year that the DoJ explosives section were represented at, the vibes I heard towards reloading were not positive at all.

Red Renard

cavan shooter wrote: »

In a way your right in that they produce gas volume to propel, Propellents can still be classed as explosives depending on what was used to manufacture them. And you shouldnt think because its a propellent its safer than HE

Check any Safety Data Sheet from Hodgdons etc and you will see that some of the popular powders which are used for reloading are manufactured from explosive products including NG.
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Winchester%20Smokeless%20MSDS.pdf
and here
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/ADI-H4227-Varget-Retumbo.pdf


Others can be classed as pyrotechnic compositions but do not let that fool you into thinking its safer.

I have used high explosives, pyrotechnic charges, and deflagrating compounds such as black powder in my career and the most frightening to use was black powder

You dont need high explosive to cause damage (High explosive is about shock and shattering effect) an you need (an other HE to set it off), deflagrating agents such as gun powders and propellents have a high gas volume and unfortunately heat and a flame can set them off. Again look at the SDS sheets and see there sensitivity.

Hence its important as I stated in the post never store propellents in a confined safe. Its one thing bringing in reloading and I suppose it is by all accounts easy to set up to do it right, but I suggest these powders should be treated with a little bit more respect than they get...

Cavan shooter. Do you know what power, propellent, active ingredient is in the average firework. Rocket / Banger (sold outside the ROI.)

ancienthunter

why worry about gun powder its basicly the same as surphur but doesnt corrode your gun. There may be some difference ? but....same thing as far as things you should'nt be doing are concerned its the same.

Why even make it easier for them yer basicly giving the an excuse to not licence reloading.

My answer is no it would not make a pick of difference if they allowed people who they knew to reload not a pick unless they also ban a load of other household stuff and commom day to day stuff and we end up like north korea without any internet.

Red Renard

ancienthunter wrote: »

why worry about gun powder its basicly the same as surphur but doesnt corrode your gun. There may be some difference ? but....same thing as far as things you should'nt be doing are concerned its the same.

Why even make it easier for them yer basicly giving the an excuse to not licence reloading.

My answer is no it would not make a pick of difference if they allowed people who they knew to reload not a pick unless they also ban a load of other household stuff and commom day to day stuff and we end up like north korea without any internet.

Gun power (BP) is found in fireworks, this I believe, is what's commonly used to make illegal devices, in different parts of the world, by criminals.

ancienthunter

yes gun powder or black powder is used in fireworks unlike modern nitrocellulose which is used in modern ammo.

Black powder is a blend of three natural materials.

Nitrocellulose is a syntetic type of material

The difference is that black powder is prone to going off due to friction or static etc... the chances still are slim.


nitrocellulose needs heat or a blast like from a mercury fumulminate primer in a case.

The advantages of nitrocellulose over black powder or another material is that it

- doesnt corrode your gun

- it has less smoke

- better burn

- safer to use

- more accuate loads are possible

This is why we use modern nitrocellulose for rounds.
the above reasons does not pose additional threat to the public based on the ease of availablity of other materials, therefore it should be licenced.

Sikamick

Re reloading: Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading.(Joke)

Re Licensed Pistols: In Greece (Ireland) wise men speak and fools decide.

Re the Anti's: American, Activist Quotes : Our main agenda is to have ALL guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn't matter if you have to distort facts or even lie. Sarah Brady

Sikamick

Sparks

I'm open to correction here ah, but I'm pretty sure that we don't use nitrocellulose, or black powder, or even cordite (excepting in some oddball loads) any more. Actual mixes seem to not only be trade secrets, but also seem to be varied on the day of manufacture by some makes (like eley tenex) in an effort to be more consistent; and I don't think mercury fulminate is used anymore either since it's pretty nasty stuff.

ancienthunter

smokeless powder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder

ancienthunter

ah yes I see it is not just nitrocellulose.....there is more

Dvs

Red Renard wrote: »

Gun power (BP) is found in fireworks, this I believe, is what's commonly used to make illegal devices, in different parts of the world, by criminals.

Red Renard,
What factual information do you base this belief on ?


Criminals/Terrorists do not use either black powder or reloading propellent to make pipe bombs or IED's.

They use commercial explosives, semtex plastic explosive,
and homemade explosives made using many common products,
that in themselves are harmless,
and usually a combination of the above,
with shrapnel made from nails, nuts and bolts,
or any other available metal item.

Criminals and Terrorists using anything to create explosions,
to kill and injure people, is driven by the intent and willingness on their part to do so, not the available means.

This is the same intent and willingness that is exercised by them,
when they use illegal firearms to murder people.

Dvs.

Grizzly 45

Dvs wrote: »

Red Renard,

What factual information do you base this belief on ?

David Copeland,the London nailbomber,used fireworks BP for his pipebombs.
The Stockton school idiots Harris& Kleebold ,had made up BP pipebombs
A pipebomb found in Dublin last year loaded with shotgun powder.

NI loyalists pipebombings in around Drumcree time. etc,etc


If you can get it ,seeing that Semtex isnt made commerically anymore since the late 80s.Ireland proably has the last largest illegal store of it.
Still unaccounted for despite the peace process and decomissioning.

and homemade explosives made using many common products,
that in themselves are harmless,

If you can get it in the right % mixes or solutions that bring it up to explosive levels.Not as easy as it once was anymore.

Criminals and Terrorists using anything to create explosions,
to kill and injure people, is driven by the intent and willingness on their part to do so, not the available means.

So why would they be adverse then to using smokeless or BP,or even match heads ???

This is the same intent and willingness that is exercised by them,
when they use illegal firearms to murder people.

Well,I've yet to hear of a Terrorist organisation being so snobby to turn their noses up at anything that shoots.Baader Meinhoff started off with .22LR "Landmann" semi auto rifles.As at the time in the 1970s 22lr was still a free calibre in Germany. The IRA started off with hunting rifles or any old yoke[inc homemade] that would go bang.A terrorist will use anything to terrorise,wether it is legally available or not.

Sikamick

Some what of a coincidence when one looks at the debate going on here.

http://www.rte.ie/aertel/106-01.html

http://www.rte.ie/aertel/109-01.html

Sikamick

Vegeta

This will never happen

Lads they don't even trust us to move with loaded pistols ffs.

Simply put the DoJ or Minister don't get it.

We can all see that there is no difference between having 500 rounds of ammo and having the the components to make 500 rounds.

What's that you say, the powder for 500 rounds is in a convenient tub for them to steal. Well what the **** do you think is in the assembled 500 rounds? Pepper

If a terrorist organisation or gang are intent on making an IED from propellent then they will just pull the heads off the 500 rounds if they have to.

Not allowing reloading from a "making it harder for terrorists" point of view is bullsh1t.
A) IF a gang/terrorist wants powder they can get it in the North (where reloading is allowed)
or just steal ammo (which can be got here) and spend 20 minutes with a kinetic hammer

ancienthunter

If there were a bomber we all just better hope he's crap and uses the soft stuff. we'd be rightly fecked if he goes to the supermarket instead of planning a robbery and pulling it off and risking everything to get propellent !

ancienthunter

I believe the baddies are looking for the smallest most powerfull device and high explosive is the only thing that will fit this criteria

Having said that they will use anything handy but simply put that is why it will not be easily available to them and it would require more effort to aquire a propellent that to make a high explosive.

I think we are starting off with the wrong attitude. Yes we know what they think, but we all have to know what we're talking about without accidently scaremongering the un-enformed.
The answer among all the shooting fraternaty should be that reloading is a nessasary component of shooting and without having to re-illiterate what we as shooters allready know that gun powder goes bang.

It doesnt even come into it to debate whether propellent is classed as an explosive or what or to explain that bp or smokeless powder could be used as pipe bombs etc..

ancienthunter

If anyone has seen this man please contact your local garda station. He has been robbing everyones powder. He is currently being questioned by gardai. Please if anyone knows anything COME FORWARD !!

It wasn't me!

Here's something to whet the appetite until reloading becomes a clearer issue for us all.

Good prices for good ammunition

If anyone's interested in cheap match-grade centrefire stuff, there's your new friend. Anyone who goes ahead with a purchase, please do let us all know how it went and costs and paperwork involved.

My 6BR vision may not be out of the question at about 60cent a round.

Sparks

A point from yesterday's FCP Seminar:

Reloading was asked about, whether the Misc bill would cope with it. JG replied that Section 40 of the CJA2006 (that's the bit that puts in section 10A in the firearms act, allowing reloading) won't in fact be implemented, it will actually be revoked and reloading will be handled under a rewrite of the Explosives Act, probably in April or May. This raised an eyebrow, prompting the point that propellant is not an explosive. JG pointed out that he's not just the Firearms Range Inspector, but also the government inspector of explosives, and that propellant is defined legally as an explosive even though it technically isn't one (this is like the definition of "assault rifle" in the restricted list not being our definition of one). He said that as it was legally an explosive, it had to be looked after in the explosives act, which is being rewritten and will hopefully be out later this year.

John also said that submissions on reloading had been sought since last year, and so far only one had been sent in. He made the point that it's not too late, they'll accept submissions from anyone. Again, speaking personally, guys, what the ****? How can everyone be complaining about the stupid rules on reloading, but only one person actually sent anything in? Gah!

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

A point from yesterday's FCP Seminar:

I read that Sparks, great to hear some clarity on it from above. Just thought I'd throw the link out for anyone looking for quality ammo they can't get at the moment. In particular, the guys shooting .223's with tight rates of twist might be interested in well loaded heavy rounds for 50cent each.

PJ Hunter

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Here's something to whet the appetite until reloading becomes a clearer issue for us all.

Good prices for good ammunition

If anyone's interested in cheap match-grade centrefire stuff, there's your new friend. Anyone who goes ahead with a purchase, please do let us all know how it went and costs and paperwork involved.

My 6BR vision may not be out of the question at about 60cent a round.

Shop around,good detective work.It wasn't me hobbs.

Sandy22

It wasn't me! wrote: »

If anyone's interested in cheap match-grade centrefire stuff, there's your new friend. Anyone who goes ahead with a purchase, please do let us all know how it went and costs and paperwork involved.

Intershoot (http://www.intershoot.co.uk/) will be supplying HPS ammo in NI. If you have a PSNI licence that might be the most convenient way to get it. Prices will be dependent on demand, so let him know if you're interested.

It wasn't me!

Sandy22 wrote: »

Demonloop will be supplying HPS ammo in NI. If you have a PSNI licence that might be the most convenient way to get it. Prices will be dependent on demand, so let him know if you're interested.

I'm applying for a visitor's permit. Should I try get a full northern licence then? It'll be a few years before I get the rifle, but if Ryan's stocking it, that'd be brilliant. I've always found him brilliant to deal with so far, so would be glad to do business with him.

Sandy22

Sparks wrote: »

A point from yesterday's FCP Seminar:

John also said that submissions on reloading had been sought since last year, and so far only one had been sent in. He made the point that it's not too late, they'll accept submissions from anyone. Again, speaking personally, guys, what the ****? How can everyone be complaining about the stupid rules on reloading, but only one person actually sent anything in? Gah!

Since when exactly? Do you mean since 31st Dec 2008, or since the 2008 DoJ Conference? Or since the year of the Rat?

How were they sought?

What cogniscance has been taken of the submissions sent in before the 2008 Conference?

And while I'm at it, do you think Mr Guinane has a proper, unbiased understanding of the reloading isssue?

Sparks

I'm thinking nobody does to be honest Sandy (ie. not shooters, not DoJ). As to 'since when', the date he mentioned was last year's FCP conference, where there'd been a long exchange on the topic during one of the workshops (Traumadoc and a few others should remember this). The submissions sent in before the conference were on the table (though any submission sent in after would have the advantage of being able to directly address their stated concerns); but if you remember at the time there was a lot of concern that some portions of the community weren't being represented at the FCP so submissions were welcomed from any source.

Apparently, we want this so much that a sum total of one person wrote in with a submission to the FCP. I suppose I should be suprised, but last time we heard how many had complained about something that ticked us all off, it was over the prime time show, and that got all of seven people to complain, despite everyone jumping up and down and saying how appalling and unacceptable it was. So it seems we've given ourselves a reputation for moaning and bitching about things we don't like, but then shutting up and accepting whatever it was; only once have we actually all gotten up and actually complained (at which point the fee hike was overturned).

Just saying, you understand...

Darr

While not something I have much intrest in doing , I may know someone who would like to reload .. but as they are not on boards may not be aware of the above .

How would one go about making a submission to the FCP on reloading and does it have to take any particlare format

or is it a case of a simple letter along to lines of ( with more detail of course )

hi there ,
I would like to relaod for the following reasons .
my security set up would ABC

Etc etc ..


Darr

Vegeta

Darr wrote: »

While not something I have much intrest in doing , I may know someone who would like to reload .. but as they are not on boards may not be aware of the above .

How would one go about making a submission to the FCP on reloading and does it have to take any particlare format

or is it a case of a simple letter along to lines of ( with more detail of course )

hi there ,
I would like to relaod for the following reasons .
my security set up would ABC

Etc etc ..


Darr

I have posted this very question here

Not much luck there either though

Darr

No Im not saying the is the case but like I said Im not in to reloading so havent researched it much ...

but could this be a factor in why there was only 1 submission ..

does anyone know how you put in a submission in the first place

Darr

Sparks

I emailed John Guinane for some clarification on that, I'll post as soon as I know.

Sparks

That was fast.

John clarified that what he meant at the seminar was that the DoJ had received only one "substantial" submission. Legally, reloading is complicated by propellant being classified as an explosive (even through in reality it isn't), which drags in the Explosives Act (which is now being redrafted in its entirety). (As an aside, that came up in the seminar as well - John's not saying propellant is an explosive, just that that's what the law defines it as and he has to work within that framework.) He confirmed that they have received other representations on the subject, both through TD's and from individuals, but without any substantial detail that they could use while re-drafting the Explosives Legislation.

In his own words:

Any submissions, in whatever form, will be considered in the re-drafting process.

Submissions should be sent directly to:

Crime 4,
Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform,
92-94 St Stephen's Green,
Dublin 2,
Ireland

Sandy22

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I'm applying for a visitor's permit. Should I try get a full northern licence then?

I doubt you'd get one, unless you have a legitimate address up there. All you need to do is ensure you get an adequate allowance on the visitor's permit. How much are you thinking of buying at a time?

It wasn't me!

Sandy22 wrote: »

I doubt you'd get one, unless you have a legitimate address up there. All you need to do is ensure you get an adequate allowance on the visitor's permit. How much are you thinking of buying at a time?

I do actually, for what that's worth. My family lives between Wicklow and Newry at the moment, so that might be possible.

I was of the impression that it wasn't possible to buy ammo with a visitor's pass, is that the case? I'd probably buy by the few hundred or the thousand, allowances on the licences depending. Might as well try get a year's supply at a time and save trips.