A rise in Christian Evangelicals in Dublin?

UU

Hey all,

Just thought I post up an observation of mine. I was in the city centre yesterday, I live in the suburbs and hadn't been in in a while because I've been ill. Well, I was walking with my friend down Grafton Street and I noticed there were Evangelicals right at the top near the Shopping Centre. You know the usual, the guy standing on something high waving the Bible in his hand and shouting at the top of his voice about crap and then others close-by with signs like "God loves you" and "Jesus is your saviour" trying to convert shoppers amongst the large crowds. I only popped down the street and then there were anti-abortionists praying with rosary beads.

The oddest one was at about 12.10am at the same location as the first crowd and it was absolutely freezing! I was going to get the Luas and got approached and the guy just started ranting on to me about Jesus and stuff so I told him that "I'm really not interested as I'm not Christian" and then he started insulting me calling me a devil-worshipper and I got pissed off and told him that "I'm atheist and think the Bible and all that is a load of crap". Then he started going all fanatically abusive at me so I just walked away. I mean if I tell him that I'm not interested, you'd think he'd get the message but he started getting all abusive at me. Also, what the hell at that time of night were they doing out? It was weird! What were they trying to win the hearts of people who are pissed off their heads? lol They also had they mighty big yellow banners with the John 3:7 written on it. I was curious and looked it up and it was just about being born again.

I'm in my 20s and have been in the city centre many times and I have never seen so many Evangelicals. Have any of youse noticed a rise in them? because I certainly have. Dunno whether it's just because Xmas is approaching and there's more shoppers and that Christmas is a Christian holiday or what the story is?!

Doctor DooM

UU wrote: »

Hey all,

Just thought I post up an observation of mine. I was in the city centre yesterday, I live in the suburbs and hadn't been in in a while because I've been ill. Well, I was walking with my friend down Grafton Street and I noticed there were Evangelicals right at the top near the Shopping Centre. You know the usual, the guy standing on something high waving the Bible in his hand and shouting at the top of his voice about crap and then others close-by with signs like "God loves you" and "Jesus is your saviour" trying to convert shoppers amongst the large crowds. I only popped down the street and then there were anti-abortionists praying with rosary beads.

The oddest one was at about 12.10am at the same location as the first crowd and it was absolutely freezing! I was going to get the Luas and got approached and the guy just started ranting on to me about Jesus and stuff so I told him that "I'm really not interested as I'm not Christian" and then he started insulting me calling me a devil-worshipper and I got pissed off and told him that "I'm atheist and think the Bible and all that is a load of crap". Then he started going all fanatically abusive at me so I just walked away. I mean if I tell him that I'm not interested, you'd think he'd get the message but he started getting all abusive at me. Also, what the hell at that time of night were they doing out? It was weird! What were they trying to win the hearts of people who are pissed off their heads? lol They also had they mighty big yellow banners with the John 3:7 written on it. I was curious and looked it up and it was just about being born again.

I'm in my 20s and have been in the city centre many times and I have never seen so many Evangelicals. Have any of youse noticed a rise in them? because I certainly have. Dunno whether it's just because Xmas is approaching and there's more shoppers and that Christmas is a Christian holiday or what the story is?!

I think I recall PDN posting figures that the decline in Catholicism in Ireland has been met with an increase in Evangelicals. I shall have a look see if I can find the post!

UU

SDooM wrote: »

I think I recall PDN posting figures that the decline in Catholicism in Ireland has been met with an increase in Evangelicals. I shall have a look see if I can find the post!

Oh cool thanks a million. But you know the Evangelical type I have encountered are actually rather scary I think because of their aggression and hostility. Whereas for mainstream Catholics such as my grandmother, they wouldn't be like that at all. Yes they'd be traditional lets say but not hostile. Like my granny goes to mass several times a week and has the pictures and stuff but I could never see her screaming on the top of her voice waving a Bible about how the world is going to end and how everyone else is sinful and will burn in hell and stuff like that!

Dades

UU wrote: »

They also had they mighty big yellow banners with the John 3:7 written on it.

Are you sure it wasn't Gareth3:7? :pac:

UU

Dades wrote: »

Are you sure it wasn't Gareth3:7? :pac:

Haha lol!

Doctor DooM

UU wrote: »

Oh cool thanks a million. But you know the Evangelical type I have encountered are actually rather scary I think because of their aggression and hostility. Whereas for mainstream Catholics such as my grandmother, they wouldn't be like that at all. Yes they'd be traditional lets say but not hostile. Like my granny goes to mass several times a week and has the pictures and stuff but I could never see her screaming on the top of her voice waving a Bible about how the world is going to end and how everyone else is sinful and will burn in hell and stuff like that!

People are people, militant atheists are just as aggresive and scary.

I do hate having religion forced on me (or the lack of religion, for that matter )

Tim Robbins

UU wrote: »

Hey all,

There's always been Jesus loons around town. I lived near Temple Bar area around '99 and I used to make a point of arguing with them when I was board on Saturdays walking around town.

Speakers Corner is much better fun because you have an equal amount of Muslim loons so you can play them off each other.

UU

Tim Robbins wrote: »

There's always been Jesus loons around town. I lived near Temple Bar area around '99 and I used to make a point of arguing with them when I was board on Saturdays walking around town.

Speakers Corner is much better fun because you have an equal amount of Muslim loons so you can play them off each other.

Yeah that white-haired guy in Temple bar is a freak he has Bible quotes on his shirt but people just dismiss him as crazy anyway! There's the Legion of Mary handing out medals there every Saturday but they seem harmless really. Haven't seen any Muslim fanatics though only the ones providing info about Islam with the table and the leaflets. gosh it must've been rather noisy living in Temple Bar! Can't say I'd particulary like to live there convenient I suppose though!

PDN

UU, are you asking about evangelicals or evangelists?

Evangelicals are a group of Christians that hold to a specific set of beliefs. They are growing pretty quickly but are still a small minority (perhaps 2%) of the population. I know of at least 150 Evangelical churches in Dublin (in fact I have pastoral responsibility for 6 of them myself). Some Evangelical churches in Dublin are very small (30 or 40 members) and some have membership of 800 or more.
Many evangelicals are like your granny and probably won't talk about their faith unless you ask them. Others are more pushy.

Evangelists are people who believe they have a specific ministry to convert other people, often through preaching, knocking on peoples' doors, approaching them in the street etc. You can get Catholic evangelists - so they are not exclusively an evangelical thing.

So which are you asking about?

The Mad Hatter

It's the recession-crazies.

UU

PDN wrote: »

UU, are you asking about evangelicals or evangelists?

Evangelicals are a group of Christians that hold to a specific set of beliefs. They are growing pretty quickly but are still a small minority (perhaps 2%) of the population. I know of at least 150 Evangelical churches in Dublin (in fact I have pastoral responsibility for 6 of them myself). Some Evangelical churches in Dublin are very small (30 or 40 members) and some have membership of 800 or more.
Many evangelicals are like your granny and probably won't talk about their faith unless you ask them. Others are more pushy.

Evangelists are people who believe they have a specific ministry to convert other people, often through preaching, knocking on peoples' doors, approaching them in the street etc. You can get Catholic evangelists - so they are not exclusively an evangelical thing.

So which are you asking about?

Oops sorry I must have gotten confused. Oh the second one Evangelists yes.

So would Evangelical Christians then be a more strict version of general Christians?

sdep

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

It's the recession-crazies.

I had real Jehovah's Witnesses yesterday. They must have come and stood on my doorstep in the cold, for I found they'd left a little tract behind them. I'd always thought they were an urban myth.

UU

sdep wrote: »

I had real Jehovah's Witnesses yesterday. They must have come and stood on my doorstep in the cold, for I found they'd left a little tract behind them. I'd always thought they were an urban myth.

It's funny that you should say that because I was just talking to my good friend in Sweden and she was telling me that she was waiting for a train and one of those Jehovah Witnesses approached her and tried to give her a leaflet but she just stood there looking at the woman in disbelief. She said it's a rarity in a very secular and unreligious country such as Sweden and she thought JWs were an urban myth really. lol

The Mad Hatter

sdep wrote: »

I had real Jehovah's Witnesses yesterday. They must have come and stood on my doorstep in the cold, for I found they'd left a little tract behind them. I'd always thought they were an urban myth.

We had them to my parents' house once. My dad sort of through them for a loop when he said 'I think we'll take our chances.'

I have no major issues with JWs, though - all those I've met have been extremely pleasant and polite people. Also my flat - hidden around a corner attached to a much bigger house - is sort of irritation-proof in that regard.

robindch

sdep wrote: »

I had real Jehovah's Witnesses yesterday. They must have come and stood on my doorstep in the cold, for I found they'd left a little tract behind them. I'd always thought they were an urban myth.

Lucky you. Ten days or so ago, two of them somehow got into my office building on Pearse Street, walked into the first office they came to -- mine, as luck would have it -- made their way over to my desk and asked if they could leave little piles of Watchtowers around the place. They were on their way again in under ten seconds (a personal best ).

AtomicHorror

I find the Catholics giving out miraculous medals much more irritating than the JWs. Pushy people, quite irritated when one politely declines their crap jewellery imbued with majick.

Bottle_of_Smoke

UU wrote: »

Oops sorry I must have gotten confused. Oh the second one Evangelists yes.

So would Evangelical Christians then be a more strict version of general Christians?

I'm pretty sure you mean Evangelicals in the first post. Perhaps Evangelist Evangelicals for the more aggeressive ones. Did they have particular emphasis on being saved?

UU

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I'm pretty sure you mean Evangelicals in the first post. Perhaps Evangelist Evangelicals for the more aggeressive ones. Did they have particular emphasis on being saved?

Yeah the guy started talking about the end of the world and Jesus coming down and all this stuff. They seemed to be focused a lot of the whole concept of being born-again.

studiorat

UU wrote: »

Yeah the guy started talking about the end of the world and Jesus coming down and all this stuff. They seemed to be focused a lot of the whole concept of being born-again.

Oh Lordy, Lordy!
The devil he's a comin!

Phototoxin

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I find the Catholics giving out miraculous medals much more irritating than the JWs. Pushy people, quite irritated when one politely declines their crap jewellery imbued with majick.

Some traddy types can be a bit pushy.. I recall after latin mass there were some old people.. not too friendly.. you know maybe if they were nice and human (and you think 4 young people coming out from a TLM would make them happy but NO) like protestants are catholicsm would spread better. But it doesn. They dont evangalise really either. You are supposed to osmos it from the air during which time the freevangelicals are converting people.

Nodin

UU wrote: »

I'm in my 20s and have been in the city centre many times and I have never seen so many Evangelicals. Have any of youse noticed a rise in them? because I certainly have. Dunno whether it's just because Xmas is approaching and there's more shoppers and that Christmas is a Christian holiday or what the story is?!

Ye get the odd one that pops up. And now and then some bunch go on a "drive". Either spookily young folk (the latter) or the cranky half loons (the former). I prefered the Hares - they at least added a bit of colour to the place.

I remember getting "mugged" by the legion of mary when I was sitting with some young one in Stephens Green. She wanted to have a go at them...I would have rather been having a go at her....must have been stuck there an hour.....

Dades

robindch wrote: »

Ten days or so ago, two of them somehow got into my office building on Pearse Street, walked into the first office they came to -- mine, as luck would have it...

Talk about taking a wrong turn.

I have no attempted conversion stories and it really annoys me!

Dave!

I've also never suffered a conversion attempt! I've toyed with the idea of walking up and down Abbey (I think?) Street until a Scientologist offers me a personality test, but alas, I never did it I reckon I'd fail anyway

Nodin

Dave! wrote: »

I've also never suffered a conversion attempt! I've toyed with the idea of walking up and down Abbey (I think?) Street until a Scientologist offers me a personality test, but alas, I never did it I reckon I'd fail anyway

I used do a bit of security at a door down along that way. There was always the hope that one day some whacked out of it skanger would wander in to Scientology HQ and try something, which would allow some one to go up and ask innocently what happened, waiting until the story unfolded, and hitting them with "Jaysus thats awful.....but did it not show up he was a wrong one on his personality test"?

Yer man that ran the place came down once and said that a book critical of scientology should be taken down out of the window...laughing at him probably wasn't the best move. In the end we just put one of his yokes beside it to shut him up.

PDN

UU wrote: »

Oops sorry I must have gotten confused. Oh the second one Evangelists yes.

So would Evangelical Christians then be a more strict version of general Christians?

It depends what you mean by 'stricter'. We're actually much looser than Catholics when it comes to contraception, clergy marrying etc.

Evangelicals believe that you become a Christian by making a conscious decision to place your faith in Jesus and to live life in relationship with God. They would see 'Christian' and 'disciple' as synonymous - so try to live their lives as followers of Jesus.

One big contrast with Catholicism is that Evangelicals would totally reject the idea that you are a Christian by virtue of being baptised as a baby, or by being born in a so-called 'Christian country'.

This would involve trying to understand the Bible better so as to apply it to daily life. Most evangelicals would see the Bible as the inspired Word of God.

As well as overseeing a group of about 15 Evangelical churches, I also pastor one individual church (outside Dublin, with 700 members). Contrary to the stereotypes portrayed in this thread none of our members preach on the street, wave placards at passers-by, or go knocking on people's doors to spread the faith.

In fact it's often funny listening to the comments of new visitors who come to our church (on average there's 3 or 4 visitors each Sunday of which about 50% end up staying and joining the Church). I was talking to one young guy (about 20 years old) and he was saying, "I can't believe the people I'm seeing here! There's my GP - I didn't know he was one of you lot! And that woman was my teacher in school! And over there's the guy who runs the internet cafe! And as for that man praying for people at the front - he's a cop & the ****** gave me a speeding ticket last week!"

He seemed to be expecting a bunch of wild-eyed apocalyptic crazies frothing at the mouth and ranting about the European Union. Instead he found a cross-section of the community enjoying worshipping together in church.

PDN

PDN wrote: »

In fact it's often funny listening to the comments of new visitors who come to our church (on average there's 3 or 4 visitors each Sunday of which about 50% end up staying and joining the Church).

That's a good retention rate. You could do a nixer and sell gym memberships in the new year.

PDN

Deleted User wrote: »

That's a good retention rate. You could do a nixer and sell gym memberships in the new year.

Ha ha! Although I would argue that the high retention rate is more down to our quality product than to my closing skills.

seamus

Can't say I've noticed an increase in Dublin city, they've always seemed to be there in my experience. I don't spend much time in town nowadays though apart from commuting.

There's a JW church/commune/shed relatively close to me, so I think about once I month I see them roaming the streets in their pairs. They called in on me once. When I heard the doorbell go, I looked out the window (sitting room is upstairs) and saw other JWs wandering the street, so I sat down and ignored it.

Then they banged the letterbox like a knocker, so then I assumed it was somebody important and not a JW and I went down and answered it. Cheeky ****ers. They just said something about the state of the world and asked, "How do you think God feels?". I just said, "Sorry, I'm not interested in having this conversation" and they thanked me and left.

I would have to agree with PDN's assessment though - people tend to expect Christian churches which aren't Catholic or Protestant to be full of raving bible-thumpers and people thrashing on the ground repenting to God. It's probably a stereotype from watching American TV.

sdep

seamus wrote: »

I would have to agree with PDN's assessment though - people tend to expect Christian churches which aren't Catholic or Protestant to be full of raving bible-thumpers and people thrashing on the ground repenting to God. It's probably a stereotype from watching American TV.

Well, that was my only experience of a non-mainstream Christian service (not sure of the exact sect). I somehow got roped into driving a visiting friend to a Sunday event in a rented London school. I was persuaded to go in, and sat at the back of the hall during a bit of a sermon and a set by the band. Fine. Then people were invited up to the mike to talk about whatever they liked, and before long almost everyone in the room was moaning, swaying backwards and forwards with eyes closed, rolling on the floor, howling and generally acting exceedingly weird. Part of me found it hilarious, and part horrible - it was like suddenly discovering I was in a bad zombie movie. I fled and waited outside until it was over, when all the howlers walked breezily to their cars as though nothing had happened. Since then I've only done meat and two veg Christianity.

My alltime favourite weird religious experience came when doing lengths of the Markiewicz pool some years ago. An attendant closed off one of the lanes, and a group of people filed in and lined up alongside. Then, one by one, they climbed in - fully dressed - and got baptised, while everyone else carried on splashing up and down. Looking back, I can't quite believe it really happened - has anyone else ever heard of this?

Flamed Diving

If someone got aggressive with me like that, I would knock them the **** out.

ChocolateSauce

sdep wrote: »

I had real Jehovah's Witnesses yesterday. They must have come and stood on my doorstep in the cold, for I found they'd left a little tract behind them. I'd always thought they were an urban myth.

Naw, I live with the offspring of a JW. They're among the highest non-violent grades of crazy you can get.

My only problem I have with them specifically is when parents try to stop their children getting blood transfusions.

Scientologists? I've done their test. It's basically two thingies you hold and a meter reads your...something. Regardless of your result(?), they recommend dianetics. I attended an anti-scientology rally once dressed as V from V for Vendetta...but I wouldn't do it again. I got a bad vibe from the other protesters.

Regarding the thread title...I'm not so sure about in Dublin, but in the country as a whole there is one interesting trend as shown in the Times today....there are dozens of exclusively black churches which are controlled from Nigeria and other parts of Africa which describe themselves as evangelical. They're on the rise, and before long we might have huge choirs like in "The South".

midlandsmissus

and then he started insulting me calling me a devil-worshipper

That is not christian behaviour. That evangical lad should take a look at himself. I think the more that people are worried about the state of their own soul (as a christian) the more they like looking down on other people's 'immoral' behaviour

ChocolateSauce

midlandsmissus wrote: »

and then he started insulting me calling me a devil-worshipper

That is not christian behaviour. That evangical lad should take a look at himself. I think the more that people are worried about the state of their own soul (as a christian) the more they like looking down on other people's 'immoral' behaviour

Brings to mind:

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians, they are so unlike your Christ" - Gandhi

lostexpectation

its the bloody furreingers, taken our jobs women and religion
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/1208/1228571632063.html

Húrin

UU wrote: »

The oddest one was at about 12.10am at the same location as the first crowd and it was absolutely freezing! I was going to get the Luas and got approached and the guy just started ranting on to me about Jesus and stuff so I told him that "I'm really not interested as I'm not Christian" and then he started insulting me calling me a devil-worshipper and I got pissed off and told him that "I'm atheist and think the Bible and all that is a load of crap". Then he started going all fanatically abusive at me so I just walked away. I mean if I tell him that I'm not interested, you'd think he'd get the message but he started getting all abusive at me. Also, what the hell at that time of night were they doing out? It was weird! What were they trying to win the hearts of people who are pissed off their heads? lol They also had they mighty big yellow banners with the John 3:7 written on it. I was curious and looked it up and it was just about being born again.

This kind of thing makes me pretty sad, as a Christian with somewhat evangelical views. If there is anything a Christian should not be it is aggressive. A lot of Christians don't seem to understand that Jesus only asked us to proclaim his good news. Not convert people, which is generally beyond our power to do.

UU wrote: »

So would Evangelical Christians then be a more strict version of general Christians?

No, because Christianity is not about enforcing an ethical code.

The most apparent difference between Evangelicals and the others is that they worship without use of traditional texts besides the Bible. Modern dynamic English is preferred to stodgy formulae, which is one of the things that attracted me to an evangelical church.

PGT

UU wrote: »

The oddest one was at about 12.10am at the same location as the first crowd and it was absolutely freezing! I was going to get the Luas and got approached and the guy just started ranting on to me about Jesus and stuff so I told him that "I'm really not interested as I'm not Christian" and then he started insulting me calling me a devil-worshipper and I got pissed off and told him that "I'm atheist and think the Bible and all that is a load of crap". Then he started going all fanatically abusive at me so I just walked away. I mean if I tell him that I'm not interested, you'd think he'd get the message but he started getting all abusive at me. Also, what the hell at that time of night were they doing out? It was weird! What were they trying to win the hearts of people who are pissed off their heads? lol They also had they mighty big yellow banners with the John 3:7 written on it. I was curious and looked it up and it was just about being born again.!

I'm one of the leaders of the JOHN 3:7 group which you refer to. We just stand there with our big yellow JOHN 3:7 signs and wait for people who are interested to approach us and talk with us. We do not accost people. If fact we have a policy of not approaching people ourselves. You end your account with the fact that you just walked away. Anybody who talks with us is free to do this at any time. We are not paid for what we do. We have simply experienced a life-changing relationship with God ourselves and understand that we are supposed to be "a lamp on a hill" and "the salt of the earth" as Jesus taught in the sermon on the mount (Matt 5). A lamp shines most brightly in the dark. We take the words of Jesus in John 3 literally when He says "You cannot see and cannot enter the kingdom of God unless you are born again". We feel that what you decide about Jesus is eternally important. I apologize if we failed to communicate this to you. You can check with the Gardai at Pearse Street what they think of us if you like.

Asiaprod

PGT wrote: »

I apologize if we failed to communicate this to you. You can check with the Gardai at Pearse Street what they think of us if you like.

Thank you for taking time out to address this.
Asia

philologos

UU, in fairness you shouldn't base your views of all Evangelicals in Ireland based on this one incident.

I'm friends with several Evangelical Christians in my local area, and we get on brilliantly probably because we're all Christians, but I haven't heard of any incident beween an Evangelical Christian and those of other dispositions.

As for in town, there are a few Evangelical churches there. I've been to St. Mark's with a friend on Pearse St. However, every time I have been to an Evangelical church with my friend as that is basically the only circumstance I'd ever be attending one in, I've been well received and welcomed. Infact they are some of the most welcoming people I've really ever met.

Dades

UU can only his base his views on what he's experienced. Though as PGT suggests perhaps his experience wasn't typical.

As I've said before, I've never been harassed or even approached in any way.

PGT

PGT wrote: »

A lamp shines most brightly in the dark.

I'm not a scientist but I think you will find that a lamp gives the same light whether it is light or dark, but it is not out shone in the dark.

No point to this really other than to say religion was important in the dark ages but not so much in the enlightenment.

Fanny Cradock

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not a scientist but I think you will find that a lamp gives the same light whether it is light or dark, but it is not out shone in the dark.

No point to this really other than to say religion was important in the dark ages but not so much in the enlightenment.

You seem to miss the point of the analogy. Also, we have left The Enlightenment behind us a long time ago.

Húrin

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not a scientist but I think you will find that a lamp gives the same light whether it is light or dark, but it is not out shone in the dark.

No point to this really other than to say religion was important in the dark ages but not so much in the enlightenment.

So whether religion is true or not depends on what cultural era we happen to be in? (although the Enlightenment era has been over for at least 100 years; we've since had modernism and postmodernism.)

PGT

UU wrote: »

I'm in my 20s and have been in the city centre many times and I have never seen so many Evangelicals. Have any of youse noticed a rise in them? because I certainly have. Dunno whether it's just because Xmas is approaching and there's more shoppers and that Christmas is a Christian holiday or what the story is?!

Yes, we have seen an increase in interest in spiritual matters in the last few months. The message is heard much better by those who know that they cannot save themselves. The current credit crunch and recession has helped people realize this much more readily. Jesus offers a different perspective than the gloom and doom brigade. As a result we now are out on Friday and Saturday nights, where before we were just a the top of Grafton Street on Saturdays.

Dades wrote: »

UU can only his base his views on what he's experienced. Though as PGT suggests perhaps his experience wasn't typical.

As I've said before, I've never been harassed or even approached in any way.

I do take very seriously what UU experienced. We try to adhere to the instruction to "always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, doing this with gentleness and respect" (1 Peter 3:15). This is why we stand there with our JOHN 3:7 signs.

We have been reconciled to God, and this has transformed our lives. He has called those He has reconciled to Himself as His ambassadors with His life giving message. We appeal to you on behalf of Jesus - be reconciled with God (2 Cor 5:17-20). Ambassadors are supposed to represent the kingdom to which they give allegiance. Unfortunately we are imperfect ambassadors. Just because the ambassador becomes a bit confrontational does that mean you should declare war on a benevolent kingdom, whose king sent his very own son into the conflict as a peacemaker?

He (The Word, God, Jesus) came to his own and his own did not recieve Him. But to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:11-14). This is not about religion or church, priests or altars, or hail marys or sacraments etc.. it is about whether or not you will recieve, and believe God - being reconciled to Him and entering into an eternal relationship with Him. It is about life, eternal life. For God so loved the world that He sent His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world may be saved through Him. (John 3:16-17) We would be lost without Jesus! Will you come to Him?

Or if you have already, will you join with us as His ambassadors (irrespective of where you live)?

PGT

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not a scientist but I think you will find that a lamp gives the same light whether it is light or dark, but it is not out shone in the dark.

No point to this really other than to say religion was important in the dark ages but not so much in the enlightenment.

I agree, the amount of light the lamp gives is the same. But we see it differently. That is the difference between science and God. Science sees the bare truth. It can describe radiance and refraction. You need more than science to appreciate the beauty of a rainbow against stormy skies or refracted rays of sunlight shining through the clouds at sunset. We are designed to think, but also to love and be loved. Science knows nothing of eternity! God will never be out of date.

Húrin

PGT wrote: »

Or if you have already, will you join with us as His ambassadors (irrespective of where you live)?

yes I would be interested in seeing what you do on friday nights. I've never seen and John 3:7 even tho I live in Dublin. I don't go to Grafton st at weekends though. ever.

PGT

PGT wrote: »

I agree, the amount of light the lamp gives is the same. But we see it differently. That is the difference between science and God. Science sees the bare truth. It can describe radiance and refraction. You need more than science to appreciate the beauty of a rainbow against stormy skies or refracted rays of sunlight shining through the clouds at sunset. We are designed to think, but also to love and be loved. Science knows nothing of eternity! God will never be out of date.

That reminds me of just after my grandmother's funeral - family standing around the grave and one points out - there has been a single star looking over us all evening - I say it's far more likely to be a planet like Mars or Venus if we can see it this early. I got some disapproving looks.

Húrin

Húrin wrote: »

So whether religion is true or not depends on what cultural era we happen to be in? (although the Enlightenment era has been over for at least 100 years; we've since had modernism and postmodernism.)

No but whether it looks like it gives answers to whatever people are asking does depend on what is around it. Recession and the dark ages being perfect examples.

UU

Gosh I thought this topic was long dead lol. Oh thanx pg633 for that. Well it was ages ago and I was really peeved off that night and it was freezing so perhaps I partially provoked anger well anyway there's no point going on about it. Well as long as you don't take an aggressive position, I'm ok with that. Although I do think religion and belief is a rather personal thing (and that's not only religious belief btw) so I wouldn't agree so much with the whole Evangelical way of wanting to convert people. I think people need to discover their own subjective truth for themselves. That's just my view anyway. Anyway good luck.

Obni

I have unsuccessfully trawled the internet for a clip, from the sublime comedy series Absolutely, featuring a street preacher approached by a concerned commuter who advises him that "No-one's listening. No-one." The sketch climaxes with the oft repeated (by me) "Why don't you just go home? Where it's warm and cosy, and people don't think you come from the planet Mental!"

Just like avoiding nerves at an interview by picturing the other people naked, this can be adapted as a technique to stop your blood boiling when you witness some irritating loon trying to recruit passing pedestrians, just run the line through your head and 'irritating' becomes 'laughable'.