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The dreaded Nespresso
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14-10-2008 12:37pm#1
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I had one of these Nespresso machines in the room in a hotel I stayed in earlier this year - I do not rate them at all and I tried several different
capsule types.
some people like drinking nespresso
some people like drinking instant
some people like drinking their own urine
... I'll continue drinking proper coffee
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The point is that it's not just a step away from how to make a proper cup of coffee - it's miles away. You have limited bean choices, it's not freshly roasted, it's not freshly ground, you don't know what else is in the capsules, it's made at too high a presure (19 bar I believe) and sold by a company almost universally regarded as one of the most evil of all multinationals.
I'm unlikely to go out an purchase a Nespresso machine just because Blumenthal has one, he seems to get column inches in the Nespresso magazine and I'm sure it's sold to the Fat Pig demographic. How can he loose?
I stand over my comparisons to Gold Blend as far as marketing goes. I'm sure it's a far superior drink to Gold Blend in the way that lighter fluid is a far superior drink to meths. Well, maybe thats overstating the case a little
If you were on a Ferarri forum and suggested that a Ford Mondeo was a almost as good because it was better than avarage you'd be laughed at. 0 -
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Ok. I'll add lighter fluid to the list of drinks that nespresso is compared to.
I think the wine (le piat d'Or was mentioned earlier) is far better example. Nepsresso isnt Blue Nun or the boxed wine of the 80s but its hardly the greatest example of coffee in the world.
While I agree with Mr Magnolia in being skeptical about Hestor Blumenthal's motivations, it still would be a huge departure from everything Ive seen and read about the man, something out of character for him to serve up "lighter fluid" to his customers, regardless of the possible perks. I think its a big leap to think that because he is serving Nespresso its becuase he is sponsored to do so. Maybe, just maybe its not as bad as some purists believe or this forum suggests.
I am not a nespresso salesman, and the idea the capsules are more expensive online than in BT is off. 0 -
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I have heard a barista saying espresso based milk drinks should not be sold in restaurants, as they are usually made in the backroom and would/should be too cold by the time they are served. But in Ireland & the UK they steam the milk to death to keep it hot, since customers are used to sipping a drink over a chat. While in Italy I hear in coffeshops it is served immediately and drank immediately by customers.I've had crap coffee in Michelin starred restaurants. It's common enough.
Exactly people know the "brand", so know what to expect. Most hotels or cafes serve very poor drinks, usually steamed to death. I found the nespresso consistent.Mr Magnolia wrote: »Loads of people rave about starbucks too, doesn't mean it's the be all and end all. If you take an average of all the espressos served in cafes around the country then nespresso is probably above average.
You could similarly say the Clover brews coffee far too quicky, it is not in accordance with published "guidelines", but these guidelines have to change with new technologies. It probably did not come out as good at lower pressures, (or it came out even worse if you preferit's made at too high a presure (19 bar I believe))
A lot of mcdonalds fans would probably not like his "perfect burger", I know people who eat only easy singles. The biggest selling beers would be regarded as muck by beer experts. They are consitent though, and people travelling abroad know what to get if they order a big mac, pint of bud or nespresso no matter if they are in London or Timbuktu.Mr Magnolia wrote: »What I did pick up from a show of his on 'the perfect cheese burger' was the depths he went to to ensure every integral element of the burger was of the highest quality and prepared in most accurtate manner.
Also I expect some purists may have the decision already made up in their minds before drinking it, a proper blind tasting would be better. I design coffee machines and have been told time and time again how machine appearance is very important, and that coffee can "taste great from a great looking machine".
I also think many get nespressos at home or in the office under the perception that only cappucino or lattes are "real" coffee anymore, and turn their nose up at filter coffee. I visited the european coffee brewing centre in Norway, there were literally hundreds of machines in the place. The main guy testing machines & coffee was still using his trusty 30 year old filter/pourover brewer at lunchtime saying it was still the best output.0 -
You could similarly say the Clover brews coffee far too quicky, it is not in accordance with published "guidelines", but these guidelines have to change with new technologies. It probably did not come out as good at lower pressures, (or it came out even worse if you prefer)
The Clover is a different type of machine for a different type of coffee. We're talking about Espresso.
Some of us have gone to the trouble of adjusting the OPV in our machines from the 12 bar set at the factory (for ESE pod certification) to 9 bar to ensure proper extraction and you really can taste the difference in the shot. I fail to see how Nespresso machines can produce a real espresso shot with this high a pressure.I design coffee machines and have been told time and time again how machine appearance is very important, and that coffee can "taste great from a great looking machine".
So how the machine looks is more important than the coffee it produces?? So are you saying it really is style over substance?0 -
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That is my point with the Nespresso, it is a different system trying to emulate a traditional espresso, and it seems the makers found that 19bar gave the best results.
But they maintain that it's "the perfect espresso" - not an emulation.
The question is how do Nestle define best results?? I assume it's like supermarkets purchasing vegetables based on how they look, not how they taste. If they find the crema has more volume at 19 bar and it works well in focus groups because people think more equals better, then that's what they will do, quality of the coffee is secondary.
At the end of the day, it's about making a tasty beverage. Formation of good crema from a real espresso machine is a sign of good extraction and there is far more to be learned from the crema than just looking at volume. You can detect problems with the grind, the temperature, the freshness of the bean, uniformity of the tamp. It may produce better coffee than instant. It my be indistinguishable to most people from real espresso. In fact, it's probably better coffee than most people could make with a real grinder and real espresso machine. If people are happy to settle for a homogeneous coffee that's fine.
But for me it's about fresh beans. I can't see how pre-ground coffee in air tight capsules, packed in a factory months previously can hold a candle to freshly roasted beans ground seconds before the shot is pulled. And the thing that worries me is that if they can produce such good results with old coffee, then what else goes into the pods to make it work???
So Marco, you say you design coffee machines - do you design Nespresso machines? 0 -
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And if you buy a Nespresso you'll never get a 'great' coffee.
Seems like certain people fond of Nespresso are happy being 'average'
Maybe I should free up the space on my kitchen counter, throw out all
the coffee equipment I've collected over the years, regain the 10 hours
per week I spend reading up on coffee, roasting coffee, making coffee and
shopping for beans and other coffee items. Maybe i should convince
myself that freshly roasted, freshly ground and properly made espresso
is not worth the effort and maybe I should just settle for mediocore and
average. Maybe Nespresso is good because George Clooney and such
others know what they are talking about as opposed to just banking their
fees for advertising a product.
I found the article in the Independent a load of pony, the only part I'd
agree with is it's first line "It's a marketing man's dream..." that's all
a Nespresso is in my opinion. The author of that article over exaggerates
what is involved in making an espresso in a domestic setting.
You do not need a machine the size of a Nissan Micra nor does it take
half an hour to clean up after using a traditional/proper espresso machine.
If you can't make a traditional espresso without 'covering every surface in
discarded coffee grounds" maybe it's time to bring your guide dog for a walk.
As I already mentioned I had a Nespresso machine with a wide selection of
capsules provided in-room in a hotel I stayed in for 2 weeks this summer.
I tried it on several occasions and it didn't cut the mustard.
If you're used to drinking instant or badly made espresso a Nespresso
will most likely appeal to you (as long as you're happy with being Mr Average)
If you have tasted real espresso you'll be best to avoid the Naff-presso.0 -
Now, let's take this seriously.
I agree that the bar for espresso in Ireland is really low, I've been in Ireland for three years now and I remember only 4 or 5 good espresso, the other things were just rubbish; espresso is SHORT, it's not hot water that tastes of coffee, the smallest cup you have (the one for espresso), no more than two fingers; even two fingers of coffee in Italy would be considered a long espresso.
Talking of quality, I really don't know what you're doing when you people are at home, for what it concerns me you can even plant and grow coffee, that won't make your coffee better, industrial toasting of coffee is better than your own toasting, due to temperatures (first of all), and other things.
In Italy almost every city has a place called torrefaction and some people buy the coffee there, the best espresso is the result of a mix of coffee types.
Anyway, trying to stay in topic, I've a nespresso myself and I drink around 3 espresso a day, in my opinion it makes the best coffee you can make at home and FAR MORE BETTER than what you can get in a typical restaurant in Ireland. It's close to the one which you can drink in a bar in Italy but it's not the same because they do lots of coffee a day and their machines are always on and making coffee (and they're also better than a nespresso though).
Coffee in pods don't mean 'stale' coffee, guys we are in 2008, there are ways to preserve the aromas, again, grinding the coffee by yourself won't result in a better coffee because you make everything at home.
If you still have doubts you can invite me and I'd be more than happy to drink and test
Cheers0 -
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I would not expect anything else from their marketing people! They have developed a machine that attempts to make what a human usually does under different operating conditions. Do you have an exact definition of what an espresso is? it seems you might have guidelines that exclude their product immediately from qualifying as an espresso. And therefore it is a simple case of your definition differing from theirs. Cadburys label dairy milk as chocolate, yet it does not fall under many peoples definition of real chocolate since it has far too little cocoa. Many beer lovers would not consider Budweiser to be a real beer, as it contains rice.But they maintain that it's "the perfect espresso" - not an emulation.
That could well be the case, and I presume they will do whatever gets the biggest profit. If people are used to drinking poor espressos, then they might consider that the norm, so if an Nespresso produces an identically poor coffee then the person might have said it did a good job, i.e. emulating what they are used to getting. Many home beer brewers will try and get kits to emulate the Budweiser that they know & love.The question is how do Nestle define best results?? I assume it's like supermarkets purchasing vegetables based on how they look, not how they taste. If they find the crema has more volume at 19 bar and it works well in focus groups because people think more equals better, then that's what they will do, quality of the coffee is secondary.
They may have compacted the ground beans in some way to keep them fresher, in which case it might need more pressure to work well. As people keep saying they do not know what is in the pods, they probably do not fully understand all of the mechanics and physics involved either.
In my workplace we have traditional machines, filter brewers, bean to cup automatic machines, and lots of good coffee freely available to everybody BUT one worker still brings in "tesco value instant coffee", no joke, it is simply what they prefer, others have their gold blend etc.So Marco, you say you design coffee machines - do you design Nespresso machines? Mainly bulk filter brewers. Sometimes we are given a machine (or even a cold coffee sample) which a customer currently uses, with their particular coffee and we are asked to adjust one of our machines in such a way to replicate the coffee. I am not that good at comparing/tasting coffees. We do have an employee who is a WBC judge though who will give a guide as to what must be changed. We would compare the TDS (totally dissolved solids), pH, brewing temperatures, sprayhead design, basket design etc and try to mimic what they are currently getting.
You said earlier you adjust your machine from its factory settings. I can understand this, a lot of the time factory settings are not intended to produce the best coffee. Many customers want to simply maximise profit, so some machines factory settings are to squeeze every last bit out of the bean, to produce the most, rather than the best coffee. Some of our machines have settings to maximise coffee quality, e.g. temperature control, while some customers value this others turn the feature off since they can limit the machine in other ways (e.g. getting hot water to clean floors with)
I have done SCAE gold cup testing on several machines, along with ECBC testing. Amongst various parameters, the SCAE "gold cup" requires a particular coffee/water ratio, and a lot of coffee shops simply do not use enough coffee to qualify. They finely grind the coffee, over roast, extend the brew times etc all to squeeze the maximum out of the coffee. The long brew times & high temperatures are often over the gold cup requirements too.
Of course some customers have coffee quality as the top priority, I am currently designing at unit to dispense water at exact temperatures, to suit particular coffee, it can dispense 1litre at +/-0.1C of your desired setting. Usually these are basrista owned outlets who have a very good reputation.
Yes, a lot of people's main or sole requirement when drinking coffee is to get a caffeine hit. Just like people drink Bud to get drunk, and eat junk/bland food to fuel themselves. Taste & quality is not of such a high concern to many people, and so they find it amusing how some people do dedicate a lot of time to it.I get laughed at by most of my friends and family who see the effort I go to....
But most people as I said are happy to take the easy option and this is where Nespresso/microwaves/frozen dinners/take aways etc come into it, you always get a more satisfying, tasty result if you prepare at home, using fresh ingredients and the right equipment.0 -
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