Cameras in the workplace

Teamhar

Hi guys, I have previously posted under the name Teamhair but for some reason I'm being blocked and registering again was the easiest as I wasn't getting any response from the helpdesk! Anyway, long story short, some cameras have gone up where I work and in my opinion, they're completely unjustified. There have been no problems with safety, theft, productivity or anything like that. I have two pointed pretty much directly at me- one at my back and the other on my left side over a distance. They're not hidden and the one to my left is movable. When I turn it to face a different a direction, it invariably ends up facing me again in a day or two. It makes me very uncomfortable and I'm not sure how to approach management. Its a small company of just 7 people, and I'm one of two women there. They're monitoring email and internet activity also, which I hate, but I've gotten around that by remote desktopping into a pc I have at home and I now do any browsing and emailing from there. As I said, I'm just not comfortable with it and I feel on some level that my privacy is being invaded. Its making me feel very resentful and though I know many companies monitor their employees, I would seriously think about leaving because of this. Any ideas with regard to what my rights are and how I should proceed? The Data Protection site is a bit vague on the issue of cameras. Thanks.

Irish Wolf

Teamhar wrote:

Hi guys, I have previously posted under the name Teamhair but for some reason I'm being blocked and registering again was the easiest as I wasn't getting any response from the helpdesk!

Sorry - that's as far as I got.. :rolleyes:

Teamhar

Thats odd... Here's the rest of it!

Long story- some cameras have gone up where I work and in my opinion, they're completely unjustified. There have been no problems with safety, theft, productivity or anything like that. I have two pointed pretty much directly at me- one at my back and the other on my left side over a distance. They're not hidden and the one to my left is movable. When I turn it to face a different a direction, it invariably ends up facing me again in a day or two. It makes me very uncomfortable and I'm not sure how to approach management. Its a small company of just 7 people, and I'm one of two women there. They're monitoring email and internet activity also, which I hate, but I've gotten around that by remote desktopping into a pc I have at home and I now do any browsing and emailing from there. As I said, I'm just not comfortable with it and I feel on some level that my privacy is being invaded. Its making me feel very resentful and though I know many companies monitor their employees, I would seriously think about leaving because of this. Any ideas with regard to what my rights are and how I should proceed? The Data Protection site is a bit vague on the issue of cameras. Thanks.

Irish Wolf

Teamhar wrote:

Thats odd... Here's the rest of it!

I actually didn't get past that either..









if you've been banned already - re-registering an account is really not the best advisable way to get around that (may not be legal advice)

Cereal Killer

Irish Wolf wrote:

I actually didn't get past that either..

Your an idiot, do you know that. If you can't offer any advise, i suggest you post posting the in this Thread.

OP, have you talked to management about it.

Merrion

It depends on the type of company - e.g. if cash or other valuables are handled then cameras are easily justified.

GerardKeating

You admit to evading company web and mail monitoring and wonder why the cameras are pointing at you?

Your efforts to evade the web/mail monitoring might actually justify your dismissal.

mikemac

To be fair to Irish Wolf, I wish posters would use paragraghs.
If the OP wants advice, she could at least make it easy for us.

Maybe it's for insurance purposes. In a office with computers worth tens of thousands and countless important business files, maybe management are installing camera's in case of theft or maybe an electrical fire so they can see what happened.

Besides, if you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to worry about.

I don't know anything about remote desktopping (despite spending 4 years doing an IT degree:o ), but if you are bypassing the network somehow, did you ever why your computer is monitored in the first place? That's a sackable offence in many places

seamus

Cereal Killer wrote:

Your an idiot, do you know that. If you can't offer any advise, i suggest you post posting the in this Thread.

There's no need for that. If you have a problem with a poster, report the post.

I'm going to move this to Work/Jobs, as legal advice can't really be given here.

Irish Wolf

Cereal Killer wrote:

Your an idiot, do you know that. If you can't offer any advise, i suggest you post posting the in this Thread.

OP, have you talked to management about it.

Thanks - an idiot I may be - but I'm an idiot that knows the difference between your and you're. Perhaps I can be a ba$tard as well and report you for personal abuse..

I was merely making a point that the OP has admitted to circumventing a ban by registering a new account - something which is taken none too lightly here.. but I guess the mods have looked at this and don't see an issue? And yes I did report the original post.

Regarding the original post - which I eventually got round to reading, I concur with what GerardKeating said.. oh, and lol..

Ishmael

Well, from what you have posted it seems that the company is having problems with internet and mail abuse. You could probably be sacked for what you are doing to circumvent the blocking systems if you have agreed to or signed some form of an acceptable usage policy of the computers in the workplace.

I'm not sure about legality but I'd be fairly sure, that it being the companies building, they can put camera's where-ever they like except for obvious no-go areas like toilets and shower-rooms etc. Unless the cameras are in positions that are totally in-appropriate then i doubt that you have any leg to stand on in relation to their positions or direction.

Do you work with any kind of sensitive information such as customer details (addresses, bank details..etc.), if so then they definitely will have reason for having them.

Are both of them intentionally pointed at you or are they pointed in the general direction that would give the observer the best view of the room as most of those cameras generally have a wide range of view.

I would also advise against adjusting the direction they are facing without consent as that may lead to a very uncomfortable chat with you boss if you are caught doing it.

Would it be fair to assume that the uncomfortableness you feel stems from you doing something your probably not suppose to be doing? (i.e. Guilt).

seamus

Teamhar wrote:

When I turn it to face a different a direction, it invariably ends up facing me again in a day or two.

Shocker. They're pointing the camera one way, then when you move it so that it's functionally useless, they move it back? Those bastards!
The camera is pointing in one way for a reason.

It makes me very uncomfortable and I'm not sure how to approach management. Its a small company of just 7 people, and I'm one of two women there.

So are you implying that there's something sexual in it? That these cameras have been installed so the men can spy on the women? That's just a teensy bit paranoid.

They're monitoring email and internet activity also, which I hate, but I've gotten around that by remote desktopping into a pc I have at home and I now do any browsing and emailing from there.

So in essence you've justified their monitoring. You're clearly doing things which you don't want your employer to see, which basically means that you're doing things that you're not getting paid for.

It has nothing to do with Data Protection (not really) and it has nothing to do with privacy. Provided that your employer has made it clear that these monitoring systems are in place, then you just have to put up with it.

I'm just curious to know what exactly about it makes you uncomfortable? What are you doing at your desk that you can't justify? Sure, we all do the odd bit of surfing when we're supposed to be working, but it's almost expected. No employer expects people to work 3-4 hours straight without taking a breather for themselves. It's the watercooler effect.

If you're worried that "evidence" is being gathered, then ask management to clarify exactly what the cameras are being used for. There's no harm in asking.

Teamhar

You're taking what I said a bit too far. I occassionally remote desktop so I can check personal emails and have a bit of surf when nothing much else is going on which isn't often as I work damn hard. Come on, who doesn't do this? We've all checked out hotel deals and flights. I'm a field engineer but when in the office, my desk is located in a busy repairs workshop. There's no cash and nothing particularly valuable and as I mentioned, there have been no issues with theft or lack of productivity. My recent perfomance review was nothing but praise with a fair hike in salary so I'm pretty sure there isn't a problem with me. Anyhow, I just don't want my boss to know when I've been having a browse through www.irishjobs.ie! No policy document has ever been seen or signed by myself. I think you guys are being unfair- surely I'm not the only one who'd be a bit uncomfortable with this situation? Surely cameras in the workplace should be justified? And I'm not banned from posting- I think its a password issue with my previous account and despite a couple of mails to the boards helpdesk, I've had nothing in reply so this was the easiest way to get posting again.

PeteK*

What is OP?

And, to remote desktop... does this mean you need to leave your computer on at home?


Also, it's not fair to say they're looking at you because you're a woman. :eek:

Can the cameras hear you if you're talking?

BostonB

Teamhar wrote:

.....As I said, I'm just not comfortable with it and I feel on some level that my privacy is being invaded. Its making me feel very resentful and though I know many companies monitor their employees, I would seriously think about leaving because of this. Any ideas with regard to what my rights are and how I should proceed?...

Lots of places have cameras, nothing unusual about that. Did you ask them why they need cameras?

pow wow

I'm surprised they didn't consult or at least mention it to staff before they went in. Have you asked the other workers what they think?

Tbh it does sound like you are being a wee bit paranoid, reeling off 'how dare they watch me' when you admit to contravening company policy (albeit not often) yourself. I doubt they put them in for the fun of it, or to ogle the chicks who work there.

seamus

Teamhar wrote:

You're taking what I said a bit too far. I occassionally remote desktop so I can check personal emails and have a bit of surf when nothing much else is going on which isn't often as I work damn hard. Come on, who doesn't do this? We've all checked out hotel deals and flights. I'm a field engineer but when in the office, my desk is located in a busy repairs workshop.

Of course, we all do this. If your company had a problem with it, they'd say it to you though. I just think you're being overly paranoid.

There's no cash and nothing particularly valuable and as I mentioned, there have been no issues with theft or lack of productivity.

I know it's a small place, but are you sure? Perhaps there has been *something*, but management don't want to say anything - they want to catch the culprit in the act as it were. You say yourself that it's a busy workshop - so clearly lots of people coming and going, lots of potential for stuff to go "missing". It may be that indeed nothing has happened, but management may just be proactive. They want to make sure that nobody's sneaking anything.

Anyhow, I just don't want my boss to know when I've been having a browse through www.irishjobs.ie!

Always surf job sites at home

I don't always agree with it, but in a work context, the phrase, "If you're doing nothing wrong, then what are you worrying about?", is perfectly valid.

rediguana

I don't blame the OP for not wanting a camera on her - who would? And, as she correctly noted, workplace net browsing is common, so why the uproar over it?

I'm male, but it's hardly beyond the bounds of possibility that there's a sexual element to it. I don't think she strongly claimed that anyway.

Beelzebub

rediguana wrote:

I don't blame the OP for not wanting a camera on her - who would? And, as she correctly noted, workplace net browsing is common, so why the uproar over it?

I'm male, but it's hardly beyond the bounds of possibility that there's a sexual element to it. I don't think she strongly claimed that anyway.

Yeah, I'd feel uncomfortable with that too.
For a woman I'd imagine that it'd be even more upsetting.

How does the rest of the staff feel about this? Have you talked to any of them about it?

I used to surf like a SOB in my last job...hmmm maybe that's why they fired me....kidding!!!

If you were in a union you might have some chance of having them removed.

Like these workers in Canada:

http://www.workplace.ca/preview/magsecure/2003m10/strategies/article3664.html

Teamhar

I didn't mean to imply that there was a sexual motive to it- maybe its just me and I don't like the feeling that I'm being watched! The other guys who work with me aren't mad about it either. Overall, there are four of us working in that area with maybe two people there on any particular day so its not mad busy with people falling around the place, pocketing computer parts! I dunno... now that I think about it, the cameras really only came in when a couple of new guys started so maybe it was really for their benefit. Still, I just can't shake that creepy feeling!

The remote desktop thing is mainly for getting airline tickets booked fast and for checking out jobs when things are going badly on a particular day. PC on, static IP address on the router and away you go. Its not the securtist, but great in a fix. All that comes up on any tracking device is that the port for RDP is open for the corresponding internal IP address. It works well because I do a lot of remote support from the office anyway! And hey, there's no policy that says I CAN'T do it, so no specific rules are being flouted. Come on guys, everybody here is sounding a bit too goody-goody to be true!

bushy...

Teamhar wrote:

They're monitoring email and internet activity also, which I hate, but I've gotten around that by remote desktopping into a pc I have at home and I now do any browsing and emailing from there.

You'll just be providing amusement for the bored tech lads, since they are probably silently logging keystrokes and looking at your work pc desktop since you started that craic.
Even better since they now have the login to your home pc , probably had a sniff around in there too , remotely doing it from the pc at your desk , so not a trace .......

GoneShootin

Irish Wolf and Cereal Killer

Both of you behave.

Thank you for your co-operation in this matter.

This man is monitoring your workplace at all times

Beelzebub

Teamhar wrote:

I didn't mean to imply that there was a sexual motive to it- maybe its just me and I don't like the feeling that I'm being watched! The other guys who work with me aren't mad about it either. Overall, there are four of us working in that area with maybe two people there on any particular day so its not mad busy with people falling around the place, pocketing computer parts! I dunno... now that I think about it, the cameras really only came in when a couple of new guys started so maybe it was really for their benefit. Still, I just can't shake that creepy feeling!

The remote desktop thing is mainly for getting airline tickets booked fast and for checking out jobs when things are going badly on a particular day. PC on, static IP address on the router and away you go. Its not the securtist, but great in a fix. All that comes up on any tracking device is that the port for RDP is open for the corresponding internal IP address. It works well because I do a lot of remote support from the office anyway! And hey, there's no policy that says I CAN'T do it, so no specific rules are being flouted. Come on guys, everybody here is sounding a bit too goody-goody to be true!

me goody-goody, qeulle horreur! :eek:
Like I said I'd be uncomfortable in that situation and I'm male.
I would ask what the justification/reason for this seemingly OTT security measure is. They might not be able to give you a straight answer but hopefully one that will assuage your fears/worries and your discomfort too.

nesf

seamus wrote:

I'm going to move this to Work/Jobs, as legal advice can't really be given here.

Just to be clear to people, you can't get legal advice here either. Only opinions which may or may not be informed.

Teamhar

Thats why this was in the legal discussion in the first place- someone moved it from there. I'm really only after opinions anyway.

syklops

I too work as an IT engineer, of sorts, and I personally do not see how accessing your home machine contravenes the AUP.

If the camera moves as the OP moves, then its not that everything is being recorded which is spooky, its that you are being watched which is. I personally would have major issues. Were I female, you can double that.

The OP said its a small company of seven or so, so its not like they have a team of InfoSec guys checking logs, and going through keystrokes.

Tailhar, go to management, you said they are happy with you. Tell them you want the camera moved, or request that your desk be moved. If they dont move on moving the camera, see what happens when you want your desk moved. If they refuse, then you are not being paranoid, it is you.

Tabnabs

You should have spent you online time a bit more productively...

Once again, google reveals all:
http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=208

http://www.graphitehrm.com/client-zone/DataProtection-MonitoringofstaffandCCTV-Apr07.asp

Irish Wolf

GoneShootin wrote:

Irish Wolf and Cereal Killer

Both of you behave.

Thank you for your co-operation in this matter.

This man is monitoring your workplace at all times

Me always behave

I shall apologise to the OP for being so flippant in my first postings on the thread - but tbh I really didn't get past the whole "I was banned and I've re-registerd" part of the original post.. so make sure you make a note of your new password

And I shall say nothing regarding the other friendly person who called me an idiot..

Anywho.. back OT - tbh if you got nothing to hide then there's no real need to be getting so worked up over it..

leeroybrown

The OP is already going out of their way to break the local IT policy. I think the OP should just leave if they feel so strongly instead of breaking the rules and bickering about it.

Also, to add my (possibly unwanted) 2c, I think that while Irish Wolf was blunt they were in no way out of line.

pow wow

It's also worth pointing out (and may make you feel more comfortable OP!) that it is highly unlikely anyone actually watches the feed, unless something does go wrong etc. I doubt the MD is holed up in this recliner office chair with some popcorn and a coke checking out what's going on with the little people on the floor.

And to put it in perspective, most large retailers have extensive CCTV capabilities and I can't imagine you feeling violated every time you go into Tesco and their cameras track your every move?

BostonB

syklops wrote:

... I personally do not see how accessing your home machine contravenes the AUP....

Its there so you don't misuse company time aswell as everything else.

Newaglish

ellscurr wrote:

It's also worth pointing out (and may make you feel more comfortable OP!) that it is highly unlikely anyone actually watches the feed, unless something does go wrong etc. I doubt the MD is holed up in this recliner office chair with some popcorn and a coke checking out what's going on with the little people on the floor.

And to put it in perspective, most large retailers have extensive CCTV capabilities and I can't imagine you feeling violated every time you go into Tesco and their cameras track your every move?

I used to work in an newsagent and it was exactly like that - the manager upstairs would literally spend all day just watching her wall of screens up in her office. If you paused to read the front of a newspaper she'd come storming down screaming "I can see what you're doing, you know!". Ah, teenage jobs...

More on topic, while it's fair enough from there perspective to have cameras in the workplace, i'd find it really bothersome, especially in an office environment where you're actually sitting in the same place all day. I didn't mind in the shop when I was moving about, because even when you know it's being monitored constantly, you can forget about it. In your situation, i'd really feel like someone is watching me.

It's certainly an unusual move for management to take, something must have provoked them to set up this system, though this could be anything from suspicion of fraud to insurance discounts for having them.

aligator_am

Sorry to wade in mid conversation but I find myself in a similar position to OP, the main difference being that the cameras that were discovered on site were hidden! one of the engineers found them by accident and was totally fuming (which I can understand) but the most ridiculous part of the whole thing was that there were a couple of dvd drives and some unopened optical mice left on the workbench for a couple of weeks, which I thought was odd, this seems to coincide with when the cameras must have been installed, sounds like entrapment to me, and I'm fairly sure that it's illegal to install hidden cameras in any job (could be wrong though)

syklops

BostonB wrote:

Its there so you don't misuse company time aswell as everything else.

The AUP is rarely put in place to prevent you wasting the company's time. The AUP is written either by the head of the IT department, or by the InfoSec specialist. It is there to protect the network from invasion, viruses, spyware etc. When it says you can not have an ipod on the property, it is not because they do not want you listening to iPod in work, it is because you can load computer exploits on to an ipod, connect it to the network, and using minimal technical knowledge create a backdoor to said network.

Unless the AUP states that the OP is not allowed browse the Internet or check personal email, I still do not see how connecting into her home computer breaks the AUP. Perhaps some one can explain it to me.