What will happen to earth after Armageddon?

JimiTime

In one of the threads in the past, I asked a question if anyone believed in a paradise earth in the future. BrianCalgary said that there seemed to be something suggesting a paradise earth in the bible. If there does 'seem to be something' why is it not discussed in Christendom? Is the general consesus, (among the christians here), that when a person dies he ascends to heaven or decends to hell? Is this process immediate, I.E. Are the dead currently in heaven or hell, or are they currently 'asleep' to be raised up for judgement at a later time?
My real point here is that if there is to be a paradise earth, then who will reside there? Does this then throw a spanner into the doctrine of heaven and hell currently held by much of the churches of christendom?

What are your thoughts?

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote:

What will happen to earth after Armageddon

Things get much worse ... "Perl Harbour" ... :eek:








... I'll get my coat ....

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote:

Things get much worse ... "Perl Harbour" ... :eek:








... I'll get my coat ....

Groan. Close the door on your way out:)

Calibos

After armageddon the earth becomes a fiery Hell in about 5 billion years when our sun becomes a supergiant and expands to the size of the orbit of Venus..............or is that in 5000 years? I always get it mixed up

Scofflaw

Wicknight wrote:

Things get much worse ... "Perl Harbour" ... :eek:

Being forced to write Perl forever in a run-down fishing port would be pretty serious alright.

cordially,
Scofflaw

UU

Calibos wrote:

After armageddon the earth becomes a fiery Hell in about 5 billion years when our sun becomes a supergiant and expands to the size of the orbit of Venus..............or is that in 5000 years? I always get it mixed up

Hmmm, sounds fun! I hope there'll be plenty of marshmallows and saunas.

Calibos

Calibos wrote:

After armageddon the earth becomes a fiery Hell in about 5 billion years when our sun becomes a supergiant and expands to the size of the orbit of Venus..............or is that in 5000 years? I always get it mixed up

Was I too clever for my own good, or was that just not funny?

Executive Steve

i don't know, but talking about it should be ok as long as mcd aren't the ones organising it...

BrianCalgary

Ok the fun is over. Back on topic.:D

What happens when we die?
There are two instances in the Gospels that I will refer to.

The first is the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Here we see two existences after death. One (the rich man) is a place of torment and unquenchable thirst. The second (Lazarus) is a pleasant place, a gulf exists between the two.You can not travel between the two.

The second is Jesus' statement on the cross to the thief when He tells him that today he will be in paradise with Jesus.

We also know that Jesus descended to the dead after His crucifixion. After which He ascended to Heaven.

Paul confirms this by stating in Phillipians 1:21-23:
21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;

To die is to be with Christ.

Those who are non-Christian go to the place where the rich man is and according to Revelation 20:11- 15, they are raised to face judgement.

Revelation 21:1
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

A new Heaven and a new Earth, as the old have passed away.

It doesn't throw a spanner into the works at all. It is pretty clear that there is a place where one goes on death, either Heaven or the bad side of Hades. In the end death and Hades will be cast into the lake of fire.

Those who die in the Lord will enter Heaven. At the end there will be a new Jerusalem and a new Earth. We will get to live in that paradise with God. Those that reject Him will get to suffer a second death.

JimiTime

BrianCalgary wrote:

Those who die in the Lord will enter Heaven. At the end there will be a new Jerusalem and a new Earth. We will get to live in that paradise with God. Those that reject Him will get to suffer a second death.

Thats my point, even here you are mentioning a new earth. Jesus says the meek will inherit the earth. My point is, if all the good are in heaven and the wicked in the second death, who will be on the earth?

BrianCalgary

JimiTime wrote:

Thats my point, even here you are mentioning a new earth. Jesus says the meek will inherit the earth. My point is, if all the good are in heaven and the wicked in the second death, who will be on the earth?

I think in the end the new Earth is a part of Heaven. Just like Calgary is a part of Alberta which is a part of Canada.

JimiTime

BrianCalgary wrote:

I think in the end the new Earth is a part of Heaven. Just like Calgary is a part of Alberta which is a part of Canada.

What makes you conclude its part of heaven? Sorry for probing, but I feel that your point is very vague. I don't see the basis for this assumption Is there something that backs up this view of heaven and earth? The confusing bit is that one is the spirit realm, the other the physical world

BrianCalgary

JimiTime wrote:

What makes you conclude its part of heaven? Sorry for probing, but I feel that your point is very vague. I don't see the basis for this assumption Is there something that backs up this view of heaven and earth? The confusing bit is that one is the spirit realm, the other the physical world

Revelation 21
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

Since Heaven is the dwelling place of God, He comes to dwell with His people, therefore where He is, is where Heaven is.

There is no question that there will be new Earth and a new heaven, we His people will reside there. We will have new bodies (Phillippians 3:21) and as stated in Revelation a whole new order.

JimiTime

BrianCalgary wrote:

Revelation 21
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

Since Heaven is the dwelling place of God, He comes to dwell with His people, therefore where He is, is where Heaven is.

There is no question that there will be new Earth and a new heaven, we His people will reside there. We will have new bodies (Phillippians 3:21) and as stated in Revelation a whole new order.

This is very interesting. Especially the bit about no sea, and later its says there is no sun or moon as it will be lit with the Glory of God. I'll have to really get my teeth into this. Look at both the symbolism and literal content. Thanks for your answers Brian appreciated as always. Beware however, I'll probably be back with more probing:)

Excelsior

To BC: Nice posting Mod! I likes it.

To Jimi: I may be reasserting everything Brian has written in less easily understood terms, but the only line that comes to mind in this thread is:

The Second Coming is all well and good but its not the end of the world!

BA-dum tssh.

I will join Wicknight and get my coat.

Seriously though, the whole point of Jesus coming, for Christians, was that he would reconcile man to God. With that central relationship restored we are given a new stability to come to terms with ourselves and freed to live contently in our true identity and from this self assurance to make peace with all around us- people, the environment, politics, culture, absolutely everything becomes our regeneration project which is how we serve God.

In Revelations Jesus says, "Behold! I make all things new!" It has become my favourite verse in the Bible I think. Heaven is not some boring floaty place in the clouds. It is the Kingdom of God. Jesus, if you remember, defined his mission as the inauguration of the Kingdom of God. So the end result of his mission (when he comes the 2nd time it will be the Victory Day which follows the "D-Day landing" of Christmas and the "taking of Berlin" at Easter) is the full realisation of God's Kingdom here on Earth. The Earth will be transformed and made new though and this is the eternal resting place that Christians claim to be citizens of now.

hairyheretic

Excelsior wrote:

Seriously though, the whole point of Jesus coming, for Christians, was that he would reconcile man to God. With that central relationship restored we are given a new stability to come to terms with ourselves and freed to live contently in our true identity and from this self assurance to make peace with all around us- people, the environment, politics, culture, absolutely everything becomes our regeneration project which is how we serve God.

Why wait? Why not start making peace with all thats around you now?

UU

In reality nobody knows what happens after we die, when Armageddon will happen (if it will or not). Speaking of it though, I was in a bookshop today and I spotted a book about the Mayans' predictions of Armageddon in 2012. After all, there's just as much possibility of that happening as the Christian one (that's not a question, that's statement).

Of course, many Christian churches have been endeavouring to predict when Armageddon will occur. Some notable examples include 2000 (the new millenium), then the 06/06/2006 (three sixs = Satan). Now it is another obscur date in 20 years time or something which will probably not happen like the rest of the false predictions in the past. The Hindus are also predictioning the end of the world, they have as much chance of being right as well. Likewise for some Pagan religions, Islam. They could all be wrong as they can't all be right.

Also, scientists are saying that the physical world will cease to exist when the sun blows up but that isn't supposed to be for billions of years and by then, the world will probably be in such a terrible state that there will be no life and it would be just as barren and vacant as the rest of our neighbouring planets.

To ask the question "What will happen to the Earth after Armageddon?" is in the indicitive tense which expresses certainy. It should be in the subjective tense as nobody knows. What's the point of pondering for hours on end over what MAY happen or what MIGHT POSSIBLY happen or what MAY NOT happen. (Not the subjective tense which expresses uncertainty, unlikelyhood, probability, unknown). That's just my opinion, if you have anything to add, please feel free to do so but no rude comments please as that is unacceptable.

Regards,

UU

hairyheretic wrote:

Why wait? Why not start making peace with all thats around you now?

That's the only valuable post I've read on this whole thread. Be inspired now.

Actually what I've posted above is just a load of meaningless jargon which ought to be thrown in the bin. Although, I won't delete it for arguement's sake. Hairyheretic managed to convey much more and something much more valuable in one line. Thanks for that enlightening post Hairy. All thanks appreciated.

JimiTime

UU wrote:

That's the only valuable post I've read on this whole thread. Be inspired now.

Actually what I've posted above is just a load of meaningless jargon which ought to be thrown in the bin. Although, I won't delete it for arguement's sake. Hairyheretic managed to convey much more and something much more valuable in one line. Thanks for that enlightening post Hairy. All thanks appreciated.

Not to be contentious, but the question was asked from a Christian perspective. So it is asked with certainty. Whether you don't believe its a certainty is not relevant for the question. Really its a Christian question, so if you don't believe in its certainty, its probably not a thread to be involed in.:)

JimiTime

Excelsior wrote:

Seriously though, the whole point of Jesus coming, for Christians, was that he would reconcile man to God. With that central relationship restored we are given a new stability to come to terms with ourselves and freed to live contently in our true identity and from this self assurance to make peace with all around us- people, the environment, politics, culture, absolutely everything becomes our regeneration project which is how we serve God.

In Revelations Jesus says, "Behold! I make all things new!" It has become my favourite verse in the Bible I think. Heaven is not some boring floaty place in the clouds. It is the Kingdom of God. Jesus, if you remember, defined his mission as the inauguration of the Kingdom of God. So the end result of his mission (when he comes the 2nd time it will be the Victory Day which follows the "D-Day landing" of Christmas and the "taking of Berlin" at Easter) is the full realisation of God's Kingdom here on Earth. The Earth will be transformed and made new though and this is the eternal resting place that Christians claim to be citizens of now.

So is what you are saying, that the earth will be the Kingdom? We will live forever on a paradise earth?

Medina

BrianCalgary wrote:

.

We also know that Jesus descended to the dead after His crucifixion.

.

Can you post the verse where Jesus informs someone of this please?

Medina

UU wrote:

Likewise for some Pagan religions, Islam.

Sorry if I've misundstood you but Islam is not a Pagan religion

Excelsior

JimiTime wrote:

So is what you are saying, that the earth will be the Kingdom? We will live forever on a paradise earth?

That is what I am saying. Those who are faithful to God will enjoy God's full presence in a regenerated Earth.

HH, I don't think you read my post carefully. The major outworking of the theology I have outlined is that peace now, environmental harmony now and respect for life now all gain massive significance we are partnering with God in the making-things-new process.

It also feeds into aesthetics, politics, everything really...

hairyheretic

Excelsior wrote:

HH, I don't think you read my post carefully. The major outworking of the theology I have outlined is that peace now, environmental harmony now and respect for life now all gain massive significance we are partnering with God in the making-things-new process.

You may be right. I thought you were refering to the second coming, given that the thread concerned after armageddon. Rereading it now, were you refering to the first?

wolfsbane

JimiTime said:

In one of the threads in the past, I asked a question if anyone believed in a paradise earth in the future. BrianCalgary said that there seemed to be something suggesting a paradise earth in the bible. If there does 'seem to be something' why is it not discussed in Christendom?

It is discussed, Jimi, its just that there is not too much we can say. The Scripture gives some hints, but a lot of it is in prophetic passages where metaphor is widely used. So it is difficult to isolate the literal from the symbolic.

The clear statements at least reveal it is not this present Earth that is in view. It will be destroyed.

Is the general consesus, (among the christians here), that when a person dies he ascends to heaven or decends to hell?

It certainly is the historic Christian position.

Is this process immediate, I.E. Are the dead currently in heaven or hell, or are they currently 'asleep' to be raised up for judgement at a later time?

Their bodies lie in the earth, their spirits go either to Hades (a sort of remand prison) or to be with Christ in God's immediate presence.

My real point here is that if there is to be a paradise earth, then who will reside there?

The saved from every age.

Does this then throw a spanner into the doctrine of heaven and hell currently held by much of the churches of christendom?

It is the historic Christian view - but many Churches today no longer believe many key doctrines of Scripture.

Brian gave a good account of many of the details of the New Heaven and New Earth.

Medina

wolfsbane wrote:

Their bodies lie in the earth, their spirits go either to Hades (a sort of remand prison) or to be with Christ in God's immediate presence.

So on the Judgement Day, all the bodies and spirits will be reconciled and will face God so that the spirits in hell will go back to hell with their bodies and the spirits in heaven will go back to heaven with their bodies?

JimiTime

wolfsbane wrote:

JimiTime said:

It is discussed, Jimi, its just that there is not too much we can say. The Scripture gives some hints, but a lot of it is in prophetic passages where metaphor is widely used. So it is difficult to isolate the literal from the symbolic.

Ok. Could it be however, that the doctrine of the churches of Christendom say , heaven and hell, and to delve too deep will maybe contradict a doctrine they've held for over a millenia? I mean, Jesus says, the meek will inherit the earth?

The clear statements at least reveal it is not this present Earth that is in view. It will be destroyed.

Does it say that the earth will be destroyed? or this system of things on earth will be destroyed?

Their bodies lie in the earth, their spirits go either to Hades (a sort of remand prison) or to be with Christ in God's immediate presence.

So you are seperating hell from hades?

Brian gave a good account of many of the details of the New Heaven and New Earth.

Indeed he did, but my point is that we've only scratched the surface. If we read with the thought, 'heaven and hell' maybe we'll keep missing the point. Maybe you need to unlearn in order to learn. I mean, whats the meaning of the 144,000 number by Jesus' side? The 12 gates of new Jeruselem? Great stuff. Maybe there is a prophet still to come before judgement day, to reveal the sacred secrets. If I recall correctly there is something about 2 prophets coming in the last days. Do you recall that scripture?

Excelsior

hairyheretic wrote:

You may be right. I thought you were refering to the second coming, given that the thread concerned after armageddon. Rereading it now, were you refering to the first?

Argh! I can understand the confusion. The "Left Behind" crew have so warped people's ideas of Christian eschatology.

I was referring to the Second Coming. The un-understood aspect of Christian theology in this area is that salvation is not simply a ticket to the afterlife, it is an invitation to join with God *now* in his regenerating work *now* that when finished will result in the 2nd Coming.

Thus my claim that the "End Times" is the impetus for action in the here and now.

wolfsbane

Medina said:

So on the Judgement Day, all the bodies and spirits will be reconciled and will face God so that the spirits in hell will go back to hell with their bodies and the spirits in heaven will go back to heaven with their bodies?

Yes and No. The wicked are then cast into Gehenna and the righteous inherit the new heavens and new earth:

Revelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”...8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

hairyheretic

Excelsior wrote:

Argh! I can understand the confusion. The "Left Behind" crew have so warped people's ideas of Christian eschatology.

Thankfully I've not read any of those then. I can be confused on my own

Excelsior wrote:

I was referring to the Second Coming. The un-understood aspect of Christian theology in this area is that salvation is not simply a ticket to the afterlife, it is an invitation to join with God *now* in his regenerating work *now* that when finished will result in the 2nd Coming.

Touching back to our discussions previously on Grace then?

Excelsior wrote:

Thus my claim that the "End Times" is the impetus for action in the here and now.

Gotcha. Hey, at least we have that cleared up now

wolfsbane

JimiTime said:

Ok. Could it be however, that the doctrine of the churches of Christendom say , heaven and hell, and to delve too deep will maybe contradict a doctrine they've held for over a millenia? I mean, Jesus says, the meek will inherit the earth?

What Jesus said is what historic Christianity has said, in all its various brands. Whether they are Premillenial, Postmillenial, or Amillenial, they all end up with the meek inheriting the earth. It is of course the new earth, not the present corrupted one.

Does it say that the earth will be destroyed? or this system of things on earth will be destroyed?

The former, which also includes the latter:
2 Peter 3:5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
...10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

So you are seperating hell from hades?

I'm separating Gehenna from Hades. The confusion comes from our English word hell being used of several things. Gehenna is: http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1/1164058369-7363.html
This is the place Christ warns of in:
Luke 12:4 “And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!

From Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, in which he keeps hell to properly refer only to Gehenna:

(1) For the rendering "hell" as a translation of hades, corresponding to Sheol, wrongly rendered "the grave" and "hell," see HADES. (2) The verb tartaroo, translated "cast down to hell" in 2Pe 2:4, signifies to consign to Tartarus, which is neither Sheol nor hades nor hell, but the place where those angels whose special sin is referred to in that passage are confined "to be reserved unto judgment;" the region is described as "pits of darkness," RV.

For our discussion, Hades and Gehenna are the two places involved. Presently all the wicked dead are in Hades awaiting the Judgement. After the Judgement, all the occupants of Hades are cast into Gehenna:
Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Indeed he did, but my point is that we've only scratched the surface. If we read with the thought, 'heaven and hell' maybe we'll keep missing the point. Maybe you need to unlearn in order to learn. I mean, whats the meaning of the 144,000 number by Jesus' side?

The symbolic representation of the total number of the elect Jews? Certainly there is much to learn, and we need to be aware of the possibility of 'baggage' when we come to interpretating Scripture. But that does not mean that most of what we know is suspect. It is fairly clear and well-thought through.

The 12 gates of new Jeruselem?

The picture of the New Jerusalem is symbolic of the Church, that much is evident. The elect of God, made up of the faithful of both Old and New Testament ages, represented by the twelve tribes and the twelve apostles

Great stuff. Maybe there is a prophet still to come before judgement day, to reveal the sacred secrets. If I recall correctly there is something about 2 prophets coming in the last days. Do you recall that scripture?

Yes, it speaks of the Two Witnesses: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=11&version=50

I doubt it refers to two individuals, but Christians differ as to the liklihood of its meaning. Some are looking for Elijah and Enoch, the only men not to have physically died. But the issue of revealed secrets does not depend on such individuals. The Holy Spirit has been given to us and when we need to understand prophetic events, He will give us understanding.

Paul expected the Thessalonian Christians to be able to discern key aspects of the End times from already revealed truth:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20thessalonians%202;&version=50;

And Daniel seems to be speaking of an inward revelation rather than one made obvious to all:

Daniel 12:9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

The danger of looking for new prophets is that the Church is built on the foundation of the New Testament apostles and prophets. That foundation was laid and does not go on being laid. The teaching they gave us in the Scriptures cannot be added to. What is going to come are false prophets, bringing teachings not in the Scripture. This is symbolised in Revelation 13: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=13&version=50

Paul speaks of the final delusion in 2 Thessalonian passage previously referred to:
2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.