Krav Maga

Dirk Gently

Any of you Ninja heads know anything about krav maga


Anyone done the course, either the intensive 2 day course or the 12 week one.
Is it worth doing? Use to do Tae kwan do as a teenager but have 2 plates in my arm now and don't fancy sparing with a weak spots in my arm so thought this would be more up my street. Looks more devious and sneaky.

judomick

waste of money in my opinion, you cannot learn how to defend yourself/fight in 2 days or 3 months once a week regardless of style trained

ninjaburr

It has a good rep but anyone can set themselves up as a Grav teacher as they dont exactly hand out certificates signed "Israeli Secret Service".
YOu might be interested in this though.
" At the invitation of Kepap Ireland chief instructor Adrian Markey, Major Avi Nardia and Albert Timen, both ex-members of Israeli Special Forces will visit Ireland in a two day open seminar on 19-20 August.
Contact 087-6758072 or kapapireland@eircom.net"
from Irish Fighter.

Alternatively look out for people training in "Systema", but again though be wary of fakers.

Im2Lazy

ninjaburr wrote:

It has a good rep but anyone can set themselves up as a Grav teacher as they dont exactly hand out certificates signed "Israeli Secret Service".

Actually they can't !
Certificates are handed out by they Israeli Government via the IKMF(International Krav Maga Federation) & WKMF(World Krav Maga Federation)
but the certificate is actually with the Israeli Government's Department of Education.

All 4 Krav Maga instructors teaching in Ireland have this certificate.

goo

Last time I was in waterstones in Stephens Green they had a couple of books on it, there's a whole MA section so check it out.

Mezcita

I did a course in this. Highly recommended.

Odysseus

Would highly recommend it myself, however, I would additionally stress the importance of continuing your training. What you learn in either 12 weeks or 2 days will be a lot, however, you will need to practice it. Finally, I agree with Im2lazy, the instructors in both organisations are for real, they have trained in Israel, and possess the certificates. Best of luck with it, and enjoy:)

Cake Fiend

I'd certainly recommend KM itself, and Patrick Cumiskey is a good teacher, but the courses are just way too expensive.

And I certainly wouldn't call KM sneaky, it's one of the most openly aggressive styles I've ever done!

Millionaire

KM can be good if trained properly.


its impossible to learn KM in a weekend.

If you looked at USA www.kravmaga.com you will
not see any of this learn it in 24 hours bull.



I think KM is runied in Ireland over these weekened courses.

If would be different if trained like any other MA, where you take
months and years to become good.

I trained in Israel (in fact did instructor course under IKMA), and when
I showed them the KM i skills I had, they nearly laughed me out of the training hall, my skills were so poor, as compared to them.

and thats after 3 years in KM, and me helping teach many of these courses!
(and I am also a 4th degree in mugendo kickboxing!!)

So if I standard was deemed to be poor by the israelis, imagine
what sort of standard your paying big money for to be conned
in Ireland.!!! its just not fair people are being deceived this way!

its time the truth be known of the KM.

You go train in Israel, or even Poland where there is a real
high standard to KM, and what you see is totally different
and miles ahead . These guys train so so hard. they would
take your head off in any range...

Nobody learned to spar...not even once when I was involved
in KM in Ireland. Thats the real test....is n't it?

If I were you I would save your money, join a good thai boxing
club get the basics to punches, elbows, knees, down, learn to
spar, and then buy Lee Morrision DVD on Combaticvs urbancombatives.com
or geoff thompson geoffthompson.com , get a few tricks from them and you in business..

Millionaire

Im2Lazy wrote:

Actually they can't !
Certificates are handed out by they Israeli Government via the IKMF(International Krav Maga Federation) & WKMF(World Krav Maga Federation)
but the certificate is actually with the Israeli Government's Department of Education.

All 4 Krav Maga instructors teaching in Ireland have this certificate.

Actually that is not all together accurte either.

To be a fully certified instructor as in listed with the Israeli government,
you have to renew your instructors certification, each year..(or perhaps 2 years). That means going on a refreshed type course.

Now if a KM instructor, has not done this this, and gone back to renew
their instructors certifiate, you might find that they are not offically qualified or certifed in a strict sense anymore.

For example, I was under massive pressure from Isreali KM to
go back to isreal this summer to re certify myself.
As I am in Thailand and have no interest in going, I will probably
loose mine... not that I really care either way.

David Kahn who wrote the book on KM, has to go back
to Israel every summer, and do part of the instructors
course and get up and show he can teach, to remain certified.


Also the IKMF which is the most well known KM assoc, aside
from them, there is several other KM assoc, and also several
other "brands" of KM, which have broken away not only in Isreal
but in the west also, like Krav Magen, Lothar, Haganna, Commado KM, etc etc etc....its all the same ****e really.

Dirk Gently

Thanks for the replies lads. Is Krav Maga in Ireland just about making a few quid from these quick courses or is it possible to actually train regularly and advance your skills.

Dirk Gently

Elytron wrote:

. I'd question your motives for learning martial arts, I'd recommend you do taichi.

Nah, use to do tae kwan do but have two plates in my right arm now and it is a real weak spot when sparring. Just thought this looked more like something I could do without taking blows to the arm. Have no time for hippy forms of martial arts so tai chi doesn't appeal to me.

Would be open to suggestions of anything you think I might be able to compete in which doesn’t involve forearm blocks.

Im2Lazy

clown bag wrote:

Thanks for the replies lads. Is Krav Maga in Ireland just about making a few quid from these quick courses or is it possible to actually train regularly and advance your skills.

You can train regularly after you have done either course.
Krav Maga Ireland has a dedicated training facility next to Stephen's Green Shopping Centre.

ShaneT

Im2Lazy wrote:

You can train regularly after you have done either course.
Krav Maga Ireland has a dedicated training facility next to Stephen's Green Shopping Centre.

They do? I thought they had an old Church behind the Ambassador?

Im2Lazy

ShaneT wrote:

They do? I thought they had an old Church behind the Ambassador?

Did have a gym not a church just off Fredrick street, up from the Amassador but have moved recently.

Millionaire

no sparring no punches taught. no throws, no locks.... if
you ain't learning that, you ain't learning krav maga.

ShaneT

Im2Lazy wrote:

Did have a gym not a church just off Fredrick street, up from the Amassador but have moved recently.

Hard to keep up! Seems that Patrick moves around more often than I get haircuts....

ShaneT

clown bag wrote:

Use to do Tae kwan do as a teenager but have 2 plates in my arm now and don't fancy sparing with a weak spots in my arm so thought this would be more up my street. Looks more devious and sneaky.

You might want to think about something along the lines of Aikido. There's a very steep learning curve and it'll be looooong while before reaching a standard that becomes applicable and useful BUT it wouldn't play hell with your arms.

Suggestions that involve full contact standup (Full Contact Karate, Thai etc) and/or grappling (Wrestling, Judo, Sub Grappling, BJJ etc) are unlikely to be wise (the forearms are used extensively for blocking and striking and HUGE amounts of pressure can be [and often is] applied to the forearms when grappling).

My suggestion, bite the bullet - accept the steep curve - and go for something along the lines of Aikido....

...only a thought.

newby.204

i emailed this guy patrick , said i was serious about training in KM and didnt want to do the quick course but rather train full time in it, he said this was possible IF I DID THE REALLY OVERPRICED COURSES HE HAD FIRST


Read up on KM, its what im looking for a no-nonsense approach to SD, i practice karate by the way, i reckon id find it hard to be able to apply the set defence moves/rourines i know on the street as my attacker doesnt know the routine..............lol:)

Dont think we are getting scammed in the courses just ripped off, there is NO WAY you can justify that for a quick fix course its more confidence hes giving out(you believe you are trained as opposed to being able to apply it practically) than good solid SD, as its unlikely you will keep it up if you have no regular classes to go to!!!!!!!!
If you dont/cant train regularly your skill drops, then one night your training is called upon and the guy with the knife/bottle etc WILL CREAM YOU

just an opinion btw

yomchi

how much is the course anyway?

Millionaire

I was paying over 1000 euro a year paid in advance for supposedly "advanced training" for 3 years. I did not really get any...maybe a little the 1st year, then it dropped off and there was no advanced training. I ended up teaching on many of the courses for free...LOL...actually I was paying for it! I wish a smelt the coffee alot earlier, but I am kind of a good hearted lad, and tended to overlook these things at the time. :-)

You'd learn more in a month or two of good Thai Boxing, or www.mmaireland.com where a good hard class is about 5 - 6 euro a go.

who007

Millionaire wrote:

KM can be good if trained properly.


its impossible to learn KM in a weekend.

If you looked at USA www.kravmaga.com you will
not see any of this learn it in 24 hours bull.



I think KM is runied in Ireland over these weekened courses.

If would be different if trained like any other MA, where you take
months and years to become good.

I trained in Israel (in fact did instructor course under IKMA), and when
I showed them the KM i skills I had, they nearly laughed me out of the training hall, my skills were so poor, as compared to them.

and thats after 3 years in KM, and me helping teach many of these courses!
(and I am also a 4th degree in mugendo kickboxing!!)

So if I standard was deemed to be poor by the israelis, imagine
what sort of standard your paying big money for to be conned
in Ireland.!!! its just not fair people are being deceived this way!

its time the truth be known of the KM.

You go train in Israel, or even Poland where there is a real
high standard to KM, and what you see is totally different
and miles ahead . These guys train so so hard. they would
take your head off in any range...

Nobody learned to spar...not even once when I was involved
in KM in Ireland. Thats the real test....is n't it?

If I were you I would save your money, join a good thai boxing
club get the basics to punches, elbows, knees, down, learn to
spar, and then buy Lee Morrision DVD on Combaticvs urbancombatives.com
or geoff thompson geoffthompson.com , get a few tricks from them and you in business..

So you keep saying Millionaire - on and on and on like a broken record with a posse of supporters who back up every word you say.

1: You say it can't be learned in a weekend and PK is a crap instructor... but Aidan is good - yet doesn't he structure his lessons in exactly the same bloody training schedules as Patrick?

2: We don't all have time to sit on a forum all day whining about someone who doesn't train people the way we'd like them to and then train every night for 7 nights a week. Some of us have jobs to do, kids to raise, places to go, people to meet! We want the 2 day intensive course. And some of us have enough savvy to probably learn something from the 2 day course too! I've only looked through this site to read relevant KM articles and all I've seen is you jump on every one of them and whinge.... is that your special attack?

Baggio...

Millionaire wrote:

I was paying over 1000 euro a year paid in advance for supposedly "advanced training" for 3 years.

Jasus! That's a lot of bread... Rip off Ireland eh?

While I was at Lee's workshop I was working with a Krav Maga guy, he was telling me that his instructors charge up to 150 sterling an hour for private tuition. More fool anyone who pays that type of cash. No wonder he wants to become an instructor.... $$$$$

I've trained with some of the top CQC guys in the UK, and they don't charge any where near that amount. If anything I feel they under charge their students (hey... I'm not going to complain though;) ).

How many of these KM guys have had full blown experience? ie - military,law enforcement, door work etc. (Now I know Aiden Carroll has so I'm not including him here). I'm not criticizing any one here, as I don't now any one else's back ground. So I'm just asking a question. Personally I would not train with anyone that has not had a shed load of real life experience - but that's just me.

Just as an after thought... My personal view on weekend courses is that.

1) Yes you will learn something if the material is good, however it will be more on the soft skills side of things (Awareness, observation, when to use a preemptive strike, etc).

2)Yep you can learn some basic strikes and defenses, etc. but will they work under pressure after a couple of hours training? I doubt it. As Odysseus said; you must continue training to get the benefits.

To me, Weekend courses just open a door, but then you have to walk through it. It's not a magic solution to self-protection - you got to put the time in.

B.

SorGan

Baggio... wrote:

Personally I would not train with anyone that has not had a shed load of real life experience - but that's just me.




B.

well i cant say i feel the same there mate, i feel if the instruction is good and the training is good and solid, then the trainers personal life is illrelevant.
but im not talking about someone creating a system of combat based on what works and what doesnt, experience is everything there.

and who007, mil. makes a fair point and knows what he is talking about.
peace out:D

cletus

hey, with regards to the plates in your arm, i have a plate in my right arm, and i train bjj, and a some mma, and apart from the occasional twinge (taking a kick directly on the spot, for instance) it doesn't affect me. How long have the plates been in? If they've been there a while and the arm is very weak I'd suggest you have it looked at

dlofnep

If you want to do something practical, I think you need to put time into it no matter what art it is. You can't possibly learn much in 2 days and remember it or become proficient at it.

Bruce Lee said he doesn't fear than man who practices 1000 moves, but fears the man who practices one move 1000 times (paraphrased).. This is kind of fitting here. Repetition is needed for anything. Soccer, martial arts, bunny hop racing.

kravist

who007 wrote:

So you keep saying Millionaire - on and on and on like a broken record with a posse of supporters who back up every word you say.

1: You say it can't be learned in a weekend and PK is a crap instructor... but Aidan is good - yet doesn't he structure his lessons in exactly the same bloody training schedules as Patrick?

2: We don't all have time to sit on a forum all day whining about someone who doesn't train people the way we'd like them to and then train every night for 7 nights a week. Some of us have jobs to do, kids to raise, places to go, people to meet! We want the 2 day intensive course. And some of us have enough savvy to probably learn something from the 2 day course too! I've only looked through this site to read relevant KM articles and all I've seen is you jump on every one of them and whinge.... is that your special attack?

Couldn't agree more!!
Gerry, you're going on a bit about the bad start KM has had in Ireland, point made and please move on from it!!! Just get over it. Your having a negative effect on the development of the system you claim to respect.

Youve mentioned www.kravmaga.com not having any claims about learning to defend yourself in 24 hours, however on other posts you accuse the same outfit of turning the system into a McDojo type of operation more focussed on seperating you from your money.


Youve also described the various KM organisations on this post as all teaching the same ***te..but on other threads you go on about too many techniques in some organisations, and how commando krav maga is the best....it's all been narrowed down to 6- 7 techniques etc etc....yet, and correct me if i'm wrong, you've never actually trained with them!!!
YOU'VE NEVER TRAINED WITH THE IKMF!!! PLEASE DO...THEN GET BACK ON BOARDS!!

As for people who only train with those with real life experiences, i have to say, im curious where you might learn your gun defences?


I've said it before, KM is in it's infancy here in Ireland. As such the best way to bring it to the people is through weekend seminars located throughout the country. If people haven't the intelligence to cop onto the fact that they will not become Bruce Lee or Eyal Yanilow over the course of a weekend then maybe they deserve what they get.

Apart from that, only a handful can avail of regular classes as quite simply, there aren't enough instructors. Mind you, the way Mill goes on about it, there aren't likely to be many more...Come to think of it, why am i complaining????? I should be making a mint!! Keep it up Gerry!! lol



What also needs clarification about the system is it's intentions. Krav Maga does not set out to do many of the things percieved about the system here on boards.
It is a self defence system! Of which, observation etc are an integral part.
For those who nag on and on about sparring..i agree it does have it's value. However..the vast majority of fights don't last more that 20 seconds. What therefore is the point in training 10x2 minute rounds???
Krav Maga prepares for what might happen in reality....not under the observation of a referee, in a ring, with rules etc.


With regard to the certification of Instructors....you dont need to travel to Israel, but certification is not yet possible here in Ireland. One can go to the UK, Poland and other places globally, keep an eye on the IKMF website for details.

Yes you have to attend instructor training to keep up your qualification which is why it's always best to train with a recognised instructor, again go to the IKMF website for links towards finding a recognised instructor in your area.



Krav Maga in Ireland is not about making a few quid!!!! You can train regualry with me in Castelbar, or is it a case that if it's not in Dublin it doesn't exist?? I recognise Dubliners don't travel well, NO score in ther second half in McHale Park last Sunday against Mayo..but lads, as i said to Gerry, GET OVER IT!! lol

SorGan

i think the biggest prob. some people have with it(myself included), is the lack of regular classes.

Baggio...

kravist wrote:

As for people who only train with those with real life experiences, i have to say, im curious where you might learn your gun defenses?

Well, since you asked - the gun disarms originally came from the likes of Fairbairn and Applegate - who did actually used them during their careers (remember the SMP and WWII?). There were also field reports that came back from the front lines.

Now when it comes to knives, guys like Lee Morrison, have had a lot of experiance. So who better to learn from?

Perhaps you could tell me, while were on the subject, what's wrong with wanting to train with people who have had a lot of "live" experience? Again it's my personal preference, I'm not asking you to do it.

Also as I have had three years on the door, I feel that I have had a small bit of experience, so hopefully I could pass this to any potential student.

You may have thought I was having a pop at P. Cumskey; I don't know the man or anything about him (for all I know he could be an ex-special forces ninja). If I have criticized KM in the past it's because of material that I have seen, and not about any particular person. As I have said in the past, I didn't like some of the techs he demo'd on TV am - I still stand by that statement. I've always felt that they would never work under pressure and were highly compliant.

kravist

Point well made..but consider this..in a modern world, who better to train.... gun defences/knives, baseball attacks or if you want to take it even further ..counter terrorism ...... than with the Israelis?
There's nothing wrong with wanting to train with people with live experience!
But remember..because one may not have live experience..it doesn't degrade the quality of instruction. "Those who can do, those who cant teach".
Did you ever consider the reason they didn't have "live experience" was because they tactfully avoided the confrontation??
I recognise youre not asking me to do it, and frankly, i couldnt care how you train, that's completly up to yourself!, ie: train with people with live experiences.
For the record, i too have worked the door in my time. (And will readily admit to being one of the worst bouncers in the History of the profession.) But, we never had trouble.
Your criticism of KM seems to be based on what you've seen...so to clarify..you've never actually trained the system!!
You're baseing judgement on what you've seen on TV AM......lmao...actually..still lmao....i expected better!
I never thought you were having a pop at PC. Leave that to Gerry..he's better than anyone at that..!!!..lol

Baggio...

Kravist,

I don't doubt that the Israeli's are experienced. That was never in question at all. But you were asking where some of my training came from so I just simply pointed out it originated from the battle field. So it's not really a tit or tat argument...so I'm confused by you're response. Do I think the Israeli's are the best or most experience hand to hand guys in the world. No not really...

Now I don't just judge Krav Maga against a 15 second technique shown on TV am - that would be sheer ignorance on my part. I've seen a hell of a lot of Krav DVDs, and talked and trained with KM guys, so I feel I have some understanding of the subject. Some of it I like and some I don't. But that's the same as any system, right? There's a lot of pseudo combatives guys out there at the moment. So you simply take what you want and leave the rest.
However when I train with guys like Lee I like pretty much like everything they do. So that's grand for my training.

Would I go down and train Krav Maga - not really... Although I would like to train along side such guys as Avi Nardia, Amir Perets, Aiden Carroll, Millionaire, etc. I don't rubbish it as a style (not sure where you got that idea from), but I wont worship it either, as a lot of people do now days.

I hear that augment a lot - "he's such a great instructor that he's always avoided violence". I'm not saying that you can't be good teacher while having little or no experience. And most people would subscribe to that - Which is fine... That said - for me, I'd prefer someone to have had a lot of "live experience" so they can pass on their knowledge and experience.

And it's the same for sport - If I wanted to be a good boxer I'd want to train with a guy who had fought many times in the ring. And that goes for whatever style you like. I guess I think of it in these simple terms - If I had a mate who knew how to fly a plane, but had never actually flown one would you be comfortable on his first flight? or would you prefer to fly with an experienced pilot with many hours of flight time. "It's not comparable", I hear you say... well to me it is, as I think teaching people how to defend against blades, multiple assailants, nasty b'stards is a very serious subject.

Interestingly enough I couldn't find a Combatives guy that was not experienced if even I wanted too . Well, ones that I'd want to train with anyway. They all seem to have had vocations that have involved some kind of violence, whether it's on he Battlefield, law enforcement or door work, etc. Remember when you is involved with that type of background you can't always avoid trouble. When I was on the door 99% of the time you could always talk your way out of things, which is great and the way it should be, However, there is always going to be one or two guys who just wont listen and just want a fight because they have had a bad day.


That's just my take...

B.