Leading out on the turn; a mangled stop and go

Hectorjelly

Ive been experimenting with a stop and go on the turn a lot recently with mixed success. Basically its a move that has a lot of problems, prime of which is that it just feels wrong. It disrupts the flop of the hand to the extent that the other player will actually think about the hand more, this is obviously bad. Here is a hand played paticularly badly by me.

4 of us left $25 stt, I have about 7,000. Villain of the piece has about 5,000. The blinds are 50 - 100. So far Ive played very few hands, I flopped two boats and made the most from them. The villain seems to know what hes doing, in a kind of clumsy HOH/always bet too small type way. He has min raised before but I didnt get to see what type of hands he is doing it with.

I limp utg with KQs, he then makes it 200 to go. The blinds fold and I call.
The flop is 22Qr. This is a nice flop for my hand, so I check. I think if you lead out here most of the time you should play with your cards turned up. Betting and folding costs you just as many chips as check calling does, and you get to see the turn. Also with a hand like this giving a free card is fine because there are no draws and there is only 1 overcard to fear. If you bet you make it very hard for your opponent to make a mistake, he will fold AK rather than bet it.

Villain then bets 200. Now this bet is usually either a missed flop or a monster. I call.

The turn is a 6. I lead out for 600. He calls. I think he would fold AK/99 at this point so when he calls Im pretty sure i have the worst hand.

The river is a 5. I check and he bets 800. This is clearly a value bet and I should of folded. The pot is laying me 4-1 or so but I think its much less likely that my hand is any good here, he had A2.

My turn bet cost me at least 200 chips, maybe 400, as he probably would of bet 200 again. My call on the river cost me an extra 800.

The positive side to this hand from my POV is that my opponent played the hand brutally, ensuring that he got about as litte chips as he could have had. Allthough, to be fair most VC players would of check raised all in on the flop so it doesnt really matter what he does. To make myself feel better Ill have a quick run through of his mistakes.

Preflop - Min Raise - unless he is setting up a play there is no need to put escalate the size of the pot with a hand like A2. Note that there was a good chance that one of the blinds might have hit the flop as welll, so he could of lost chips there. Also, if he hadnt of min raised the pot preflop, at the river the pot would of been much bigger. I would of made a 3/4 sized pot on the flop, and probably the turn as well assuming he had a hand like QJ or QT.

Flop - this bet is suspicous. The only advantage it has is it might induce a bluff reraise, but as showed above it let me get to the river very cheaply. If he bets the pot here I am more likely to raise, becuase I have to decide then if my hand is good enough or not to play for all my chips. His bet of 200 not only lets me defer any big decision, but it lets me see the river for a small portion of my chips.

Turn - This is the only street where his action is ok. My bet is a clear information/blocking bet and a raise here signifies a lot of strength. Better to let me bet off more of my chips on the river.

River - Well I checked which is bad news, but the pot is now nearly 2k. I obviously have some part of the hand, if I was bluffing then hes not getting any more chips anyway. I consider it almost a crime not to bet at least 1400 here.

Hectorjelly

Id love to hear how people play turns like this in general, and the thinking behind it.

mewso

Well I would be a bit more passive. If he is betting I can't be certain my hand is good so I would be happy to call his bets down assuming they don't get too big which appears to be his pattern.
In general I would agree with checking the flop but I wouldn't tend to come out betting on the turn unless everyone had checked the flop even though many players with a 2 would check the flop as so many books have told them to. I still want to bet and see if there is a 2 out there. Another way might be to check-raise your opponent to represent the 2. O.k. so this time he has one but if he doesn't he has to assume you do and you're playing it by the numbers.
Essentially I agree with your analysis HJ and the move on the turn is a valid move I think which will win more pots than lose them. If this is VC, though, you'll lose every one

careca

I don't think there was anything wrong with your turn bet or your river check.
You can't allow him a free card as an A might hit and you don't know where you. you are also getting some info by betting.

If you bet the river you will be raised, either losing more chips or mucking and getting no information at all about the hand.

The one thing I would disagree with is saying his min raise pre flop was poor. I actually like this play as it can benefit you on a scary board. Also in this situation you could hardly put him on a 2. For example if another 2 hits the board (giving him quads) you would most likely lose a lot of your chips as you only have to worry about KK (and you have one of these) or AA. you would have to like your Q here. I also think if the blinds had come in and an A hits the board you can lay your hand down easily enough as you only min raised in the first place.

Hitman Actual

I think leading out on the turn was spot on... to be honest everything in your original post is good, but there's so much info there that it leaves it very hard for anyone else to reply with anything meaningful!

Regarding his min raise, I dont like it, but I hate min raises in general.

I'm missing the point of the Stop and Go, though... I thought that a pre-flop Stop and Go was calling a bet with the intention of pushing on a flop thats dangerous to your opponent; how does the turn Stop and Go work, and if it's not all-in is it still a stop and go? Forgive me if I'm way off here, but I dont know a lot about the S&G.

Lafortezza

Hectorjelly wrote:

Villain then bets 200. Now this bet is usually either a missed flop or a monster. I call.

Is this not classed as an autobet from the PF raiser when you check it to him? The size of the bet is curious, I'd expect AK or 99 to bet larger, but still a very high % of PF raisers are going to bet in this situation.

Hectorjelly wrote:

The turn is a 6. I lead out for 600. He calls. I think he would fold AK/99 at this point so when he calls Im pretty sure i have the worst hand.

How much was the pot before you bet 600? 950?

Hectorjelly wrote:

The river is a 5. I check and he bets 800. This is clearly a value bet and I should of folded. The pot is laying me 4-1 or so but I think its much less likely that my hand is any good here, he had A2.

Would a weaker Q not have played this hand similarly to A2 (possibly a little faster) occasionally? I think when he doesn't check behind on the river he must have AQ or a 2 of some kind and a fold is good.

I haven't played the $25 STT's on VC/PPP so I don't know what the standard is like but I generally would have raised the flop after he autobets it.

Hectorjelly

lenny_leonard wrote:

I'm missing the point of the Stop and Go, though... I thought that a pre-flop Stop and Go was calling a bet with the intention of pushing on a flop thats dangerous to your opponent; how does the turn Stop and Go work, and if it's not all-in is it still a stop and go? Forgive me if I'm way off here, but I dont know a lot about the S&G.

A stop and go is just when you call on one street out of postition and then bet the next one. It doesnt have to be all in, and its not just for stts!

Blitzkrieger

Hectorjelly wrote:

I consider it almost a crime not to bet at least 1400 here.

I think 800 was too much. He's pretty sure that he has a good hand and probably thought you had a worse hand than you had. I'd say he was trying to give you good pot odds. He wanted to get as much chips as he could out of you without scaring you into folding.

Hectorjelly

Blitzkrieger wrote:

I think 800 was too much. He's pretty sure that he has a good hand and probably thought you had a worse hand than you had. I'd say he was trying to give you good pot odds. He wanted to get as much chips as he could out of you without scaring you into folding.

Awful - the pot is 1800 before this bet and in most cases you should bet the pot or close to it. In this paticular case a big bet is less suspicous than a small one. You should try and maximise how much you get from your big hands not ensure you get paid off at all.