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Parents who raise children as vegans should be prosecuted, say Belgian doctors

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  • 18-05-2019 6:30pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,901 ✭✭✭


    The telegraph is running this story. Apparently there have been a number of deaths in schools, hospitals and nurseries.

    According to the article
    The vegan diet could only be made safe for growing children if complemented with medical supervision, regular blood tests and vitamin supplements, which most parents were not qualified to provide.
    "This restrictive regime requires ongoing monitoring of children to avoid deficiencies and often irreversible growth delays," the legal opinion said, "It is unsuitable for unborn children, children, teenagers and pregnant and lactating women."

    I am surprised that a body like The Royal Academy of Medicine of Belgium would publish such an opinion when like any diet it requires balance depending on what stage in the life cycle a child is. Granted it may be more difficult to find the balance with a vegan diet as we have plenty information and experience of meat and dairy based diets and a less for plant based diets.

    Clearly the parents mentioned in the article who feed only plant based milk to their baby did not understand the nutritional requirements of their child. Together with what ever other cases have occurred caused Belgium child protective services to seek a legal opinion from the Royal academy of Medicine.

    In between the sensationalist reporting and hyperbole, I am reading babies, children and adolescent require specific nutrients at different stages of their development and without them their development will be affected and in very extreme cases cause death, so the Belgium medical academy based on their experience recommend medical supervision for children who are on a vegan diet. However without knowing the number of deaths and complications it is not possible to say if this is an over-reaction of not.

    However what annoys me most is the reaction of Dawn Carr, of PETA,(their director of vegan corporate projects) who said, "What a load of ignorant codswallop!" She is just brushing aside the concerns of these people. she goes on to say.
    NHS nutritionists confirm that while a meat- and dairy-based diet is what strikes people down in adulthood – as it can lead to hardened arteries that cause stroke, brain aneurysms, and heart attacks

    Firstly unless these belgium children died from some form of arterial damage why does she bring it up. Not only that, it is incorrect to say meat and dairy cause these conditions when there are so many other factors that are contributory. But the worst sin for me is the inference that vegans so not suffer from the above just because they eliminate meat and dairy from their diets. Why the dishonesty?

    If meat and dairy is what strikes people down in adulthood why do the NHS recommend its daily consumption in the recommended food groups and diets. Maybe its because there is more to a healthy heart and blood vessels that just food. Vegans with Diabetes, vegans who are overweight, vegans who smoke, vegans who have high blood pressure, vegens who do not exercise are all at risk of being struck down in adulthood with "hardened arteries that cause stroke, brain aneurysms, and heart attacks"

    I cannot find any NHS nutritionist confirm that it is meat and dairy are that strike people down in adulthood.

    a well-planned vegan diet is perfect for babies and children.

    "Kids, including my own, thrive on a balanced vegan diet, but as with any dietary regime, it's the parent's responsibility to ensure their child is getting all the necessary nutrients. And yes, that's easier to achieve on a vibrant vegan diet rich in whole grains, vegetables, and pulses."


    Even the NHS who include vegetarian and vegan advice advise in the "vegetarian and vegan babies and children" is
    But they might need specific supplements (such as vitamin B12) in addition to the usual vitamin supplements recommended for all babies. Talk to a health professional for advice.

    Is it not just as easy to provide all necessary nutrients for children on vegetarian and omnivorous diets, why be dishonest and say its easier on a vegan diet?

    This misinformation and dishonesty has to stop, a balanced plant based diet is just as good as any other diet, it does not need lies to make it seem better.


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 18,539 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Vexorg wrote: »
    This misinformation and dishonesty has to stop, a balanced plant based diet is just as good as any other diet, it does not need lies to make it seem better.


    I think you just realised what its like to be a farmer and having lies spread about the internet about your farming practice..


    Here's an idea, maybe if people just kept to themselves about their preferences and opinions on diet and lifestyle rather than attacking everyone else and wanting to take away their opinion and personal choice, that sure sounds better to me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,089 ✭✭✭henryporter


    _Brian wrote: »
    Here's an idea, maybe if people just kept to themselves about their preferences and opinions on diet and lifestyle rather than attacking everyone else and wanting to take away their opinion and personal choice, that sure sounds better to me.

    Brilliant idea - does this mean you'll stop ranting on the V & V forum now :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    I've no problem with people being vegans, once
    1. They keep their veganism to themselves
    2. They don't do that awful thing called air travel (1 flight to New York = 5 years of meat eating).
    3. They keep buy stuff imported from China, bought on Amazon, flown to Ireland, etc, etc.
    4. They don't take any supplements, etc which are factory made make up for the undernourishment of not eating meat.

    Bottom line - I've never met a vegan who wasn't a complete pain in the ****


  • Registered Users Posts: 530 ✭✭✭Hedgelayer


    This is my opinion, vegans and vegetarias that I know are slightly aggressive under the cloak of being peacefull animal lovers.

    Usually they're the sensitive covert narcissist, unable to mind their own business and pushing their agenda on meat eaters.

    Social justice warriors come to mind too.

    Any parents who try to turn their kids into vegans through fear and manipulation are on the same wavelength as parents pushing their religious agenda's on their kids.

    Why are most vegans yellow looking?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Glass fused light


    Vexorg wrote: »

    Apparently there have been a number of deaths in schools, hospitals and nurseries.

    In between the sensationalist reporting and hyperbole, I am reading babies, children and adolescent require specific nutrients at different stages of their development and without them their development will be affected and in very extreme cases cause death, so the Belgium medical academy based on their experience recommend medical supervision for children who are on a vegan diet. However without knowing the number of deaths and complications it is not possible to say if this is an over-reaction of not.

    Even one death of a child who starved to death in a firstworld country should be unacceptable. The usual suggestion for childern at risk of neglect or abuse ranges from some form of supervision up to removal of the child at birth.

    Clearly if the medical profession is making a recomendation of medical supervision based on their collective experience of babies starving to death because parents don't know how to feed the child that's not an over-reaction.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,539 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Brilliant idea - does this mean you'll stop ranting on the V & V forum now :pac:

    I don’t rant, I educate !!

    And I didn’t see any posts saying there was a prerequisite to be VorV to comment ?

    TBH my presence is a balance to the misinformation against farming. I’ve been involved in farming all my life both on our own farm and working on others, my day job I work supporting small low income farmers financially and socially.

    Same as VorV folk are welcome in the farming section where they regularly post.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,901 ✭✭✭Vexorg


    _Brian wrote: »
    I think you just realised what its like to be a farmer and having lies spread about the internet about your farming practice..


    Here's an idea, maybe if people just kept to themselves about their preferences and opinions on diet and lifestyle rather than attacking everyone else and wanting to take away their opinion and personal choice, that sure sounds better to me.

    I don’t get the reason for having to lie especially when it involves someone’s livelihood, meat is too cheap, when it is priced correctly, I would expect consumption to decrease and herd owners income to increase at least that’s how I hope it happens.

    Some people see their belief system as morally superior to others, it’s a slippery slope imo.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 818 ✭✭✭Hal3000


    Yet parents who raise absolute thugs are grand....


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,901 ✭✭✭Vexorg


    Brilliant idea - does this mean you'll stop ranting on the V & V forum now :pac:

    Calling someone opinion a rant is poor form at best and baiting at worst, Vegans need livestock farmers to be part of the discussion, both sides need to understand the other before any real change can happen. Flippant remarks and trying to push people out of the discussion will not work.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,901 ✭✭✭Vexorg



    Bottom line - I've never met a vegan who wasn't a complete pain in the ****

    Not all vegans announce the vegan-ness to the world, is it possible you have met a vegan and did not know they were a vegan, there is a vocal minority in my experience who like to crusade on behalf of all vegans and will happily spread information based on the latest book, movie or YouTube activist they have consumed. Few if any check the information they are spreading.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Brilliant idea - does this mean you'll stop ranting on the V & V forum now


    You're not the first to want an echo chamber, not healthy though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,901 ✭✭✭Vexorg


    Even one death of a child who starved to death in a firstworld country should be unacceptable. The usual suggestion for childern at risk of neglect or abuse ranges from some form of supervision up to removal of the child at birth.

    Clearly if the medical profession is making a recomendation of medical supervision based on their collective experience of babies starving to death because parents don't know how to feed the child that's not an over-reaction.

    I agree with most of what you have said and it was poor phrased. When I said over reacting, it was from the point of view that the logic should apply to any diet or belief system forced on children by their parents, that causes death, injury etc. in this case they singled out vegans.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,901 ✭✭✭Vexorg


    Hal3000 wrote: »
    Yet parents who raise absolute thugs are grand....


    Think you posted on the wrong thread?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Glass fused light


    Vexorg wrote: »
    I agree with most of what you have said and it was poor phrased. When I said over reacting, it was from the point of view that the logic should apply to any diet or belief system forced on children by their parents, that causes death, injury etc. in this case they singled out vegans.

    I am not sure what your point is.
    The parents on the story owned a health food store and apparently did not know enough about nutrition to feed their baby. Their choice of diet choice killed the child slowly over the seven months of its short life. They did not seek medical assistance even though their child was almost half the weight that is should have been.

    120,000 childern were born in 2017 in Belgium, so 3,600 of these children are on a vegan diet (3%).

    Can anyone argue that 1 death per 3,600 babies is an acceptable mortality rate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,539 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Vexorg wrote: »
    I don’t get the reason for having to lie especially when it involves someone’s livelihood, meat is too cheap, when it is priced correctly, I would expect consumption to decrease and herd owners income to increase at least that’s how I hope it happens.

    Some people see their belief system as morally superior to others, it’s a slippery slope imo.

    The price of meat is way too cheap to reflect its actual intrinsic value upnto and including that the animal died to provide it, that’s not lost on farmers,

    But there is no point in meat costing 50% more if the farmer doesn’t get a fair share. The race to the bottom to turn meat into a commodity rather than a premium product has been a big problem. That is why smaller niche butchers with their own liking facilities should always be supported above Tesco and their ilk.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,539 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Can anyone argue that 1 death per 3,600 babies is an acceptable mortality rate.

    Of course not.
    This wasn’t a1:3,600 chance of a reaction to something or a freak accident with those odds.

    This was a premeditated planned approach by two adults which resulted in the death of a child


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,901 ✭✭✭Vexorg


    One response to the Belgiums from the US "Physicians Committee for responsible medicine".

    "Physicians Committee's response" [This is a link to a pdf of the letter]

    The physicians committee base much of their argument on this paper "Position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics: Vegetarian Diets" [This is a link to a pdf]. I found this a good read it was written for dietitian nutritionists and dietetics technicians, covers the nutrition considerations for vegetarians, (protein, vitamins and minerals) and is one of the more balanced papers I have read about plant based diet in a good while.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Vexorg wrote: »
    One response to the Belgiums from the US "Physicians Committee for responsible medicine".

    "Physicians Committee's response" [This is a link to a pdf of the letter]

    The physicians committee base much of their argument on this paper "Position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics: Vegetarian Diets" [This is a link to a pdf]. I found this a good read it was written for dietitian nutritionists and dietetics technicians, covers the nutrition considerations for vegetarians, (protein, vitamins and minerals) and is one of the more balanced papers I have read about plant based diet in a good while.

    A significant criticism of that document has been that both authors of that paper are vegan (one is also a seventh day adventist*). In addition it appears that majority of the reviewers of said paper are also vegan / vegetarian

    Here's the nub of the issue explained ...
    That point is: there is a greater possibility for pro-vegan bias in these papers than most vegans who cite them seem to realize. When vegans refer to the conservative American Dietetic Association endorsing veganism, as if this were an unexpected development that could only have come about if the nutritional case for veganism were airtight, they probably don’t know that ethical and religious vegans and vegetarians were the ones authoring these papers, and were often the ones reviewing these papers as well, and that reviewers only have limited influence anyway because they are not required to endorse the papers or the position statements.

    Well, some vegans do know this and still insist on referring to the conservative American Dietetic Association's endorsement of veganism: the paper authors themselves! After writing these papers, some of the vegetarian position paper authors reference them elsewhere as if these papers are coming from an authority outside of themselves.

    See:
    http://letthemeatmeat.com/post/26647492370/final-thoughts-on-the-american-dietetic

    Interestingly the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (formerly American Dietetic Association) is a private nutritional lobby group in the US which was co founded by Lena Cooper who was an active Seventh Day Adventist* - a group credited with the promotion of a plant based diets as part of their belief system.
    The referenced paper is frequently used by vegan advocates to justify and promote vega*n diets


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 107 ✭✭A Summer In Provence


    I moved to a plant based diet last year for health reasons. It has been one of the best decisions I've made in my life but it's very much a personal choice I made. I generally don't talk about the diet and I'm not trying to convert anyone else.

    One thing that amazed me was how quickly members of my family voiced their strong opposition to me raising my teenager on a plant based diet. They stopped short of telling me that they would ring Tusla :o As it turns out, my teenager genuinely likes vegetarian food so she chooses to be vegetarian five out of seven days. Her grandparents insist on giving her fillet steak when she visits them, incase she dies of malnutrition.

    As for vegans wanting everyone to know they're vegans ..... Well this is not me, I never want to create a fuss or draw attention to myself but ...... I recently attended a dinner party at a friend's house, I offered to bring some of my own food as I didn't want him having to cook something especially for me. He wouldn't hear of it.......his plant based option was toasted brown bread and a few lettuce leaves :( Eating out is definitely the hardest part of following a vegan/plant based diet.


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