Divorce - 4 year rule

Anon2305

Hi all.

I found out a few weeks ago that my husband of 7 years (together 10 years) cheated on me twice(apparently only two one night stands) with his ex-girlfriend and got her pregnant on both occasions. He now has a 5 year old son and new born son with her. We had a great relationship, really close connection and it seemed we were meant for each other. He says he wants to be with me but he also wants to be a part of these kids lives (only acknowledged the eldest last year following a DNA test). But I don't think I can forgive this or ever get over it if I stay with him. It stings all the more as we were due to start trying for a baby next Spring.

We have no joint assets (both own a car) or children. I have a public service job (earn approx. 20 grand more than him) and a small public service pension (contributing for the last 5 years). He has no pension.

I think my best option is probably divorce.

My question for this forum: Has anyone found a way around the 4 year waiting period and if so, what did you do?

Also, if anyone has any other tips or advice regarding divorce, that would be much appreciated.

Many thanks.

nikkibikki

You need legal advice from a solicitor. Might be a possibility of an annulment, I don't know.

I wouldn't even entertain trying for a baby with him after him not even acknowledging his own child for, what, almost 5 years?

2 one night stands resulting in 2 pregnancies? He must be the most fertile man in Ireland!

This must be an awful blow for you OP. I can't even begin to imagine how you are feeling. He doesn't sound like much of a decent person tbh going by his treatment of you, his ex and those 2 innocent children.

tara73

can't tell you anything regarding your question but I think it's equally important to let you know how I (and I think many others here too) feel for you. I wish you all the strength in the world do deal with this unbelievable situation.

You don't whinge one bit in your post, although you would have all the reasons to do so.

You seem like an amazing woman, I wish you all the best from my heart.

Loveinapril

I'm so sorry that this has happened to you. For what it's worth, I would say it is VERY unlikely that they only slept together twice. As far as I know, if you are both Irish and married in Ireland you have to wait it out for the 4 years. An annullment can only be given if the marriage was not consumated or one of the parties couldn't sustain the marriage for some reason. I only know of one marriage that was annulled and it was because one of the parties was gay and admitted to getting married while knowing this.

Dial Hard

There's no way around the four-year rule, unfortunately. All divorces in Ireland are considered no fault, therefore things like infidelity etc aren't taken into account.

Draw your line in the sand today, contact Revenue to say you want to be singly assessed again and let the clock start ticking from today.

Best of luck.

Kidchameleon

Thank your lucky stars you dont have a child with him.

leggo

Yeah OP, I can't really help on the divorce front, but just to add to what's been said about it being incredibly unlikely he's just happened to sleep with her twice and both resulted in pregnancies. These are the two time he's admitting to because they're the two times there's proof. I'd wonder more along the lines of if he ever stopped sleeping with her, or if she's the only one. An STI test might also be something to look into for your own protection.

You're thinking along the right lines anyway with divorce. Get this person out of your life now and please don't ever look back.

qwerty13

Two ‘one night stands’ resulted in pregnancies. I cannot believe he had the utter cheek to think you’d ever fall for anything so mindbogglingly ridiculously stupid. Married 7 years and he fathered a child approx 1 year later.

His behaviour to you - and the child he fathered approx 1 year after your marriage - sounds awful. I’m so sorry this has happened to you, but to forgive once would be tough enough. Two children, with a woman who he must have very regularly slept with throughout your marriage?! No. Just no way.

And there is no way around the 4 year rule.

Get away from this horrible excuse of a man. Plenty of decent men out there. If I may say so - and easier said than done - don’t let this taint your view of men. You were just with one with no principles or loyalty. Get out and move on

GaGa21

Is there any way to get the annulment based on the fact that he was probably cheating before and during the marriage so marrying you under false pretence? He would have to admit this of course.
I'm probably clutching at straws.
But I really feel for you OP, I hope you can stay strong throughout this terrible situation. He may want to work through it, but could you truly love and trust him again?
The disappointment regarding having your own child will be tough but he is not the right man to father your children. You will meet that man or go down the road of IVF on your own. So don't worry about that now. Just focus on yourself and do what you need to do to end this destructive relationship. All the best x

.......

Straight to a solicitor to start the clock ticking on a legal separation.

Good that there are no shared assets or children. Unfortunately you will have to wait the 4 years for the piece of paper that finally divorces you from him but you can get on with you life without him in it from now.

Two one night stands? He has not only disrespected you and broken your trust but he is now treating you like an idiot into the bargain. Just leave and put this fool behind you, he isnt even worth your pity for the mess he has just made of his life.

ElizaBennett

I love all the people so certain you can't get round the four year rule lol - obviously no direct experience. I got around it, at least to a certain extent. We were able to knock a whole year off (on the suggestion of my solicitor.) I was going to her to set the wheels in motion for legal separation when she noted we were already living apart 3 years. She said to me that if we were both willing to agree that the marriage had ended a year earlier then she could start divorce proceedings. Yes there was a lie involved but really, if you're both in agreement that the marriage ended and willing to agree on a date, what difference does it really make? You could argue anyway that the marriage had died much sooner than anyone actually moved out. So my suggestion to you is to ask him to agree to a date earlier than now (as you won't need to prove it if no one is contesting the truth of it) and that will at least knock some of the four years off for you and make it happen sooner. But I'd also try the annulment route as it's worth a try if he's willing to admit cheating from the get-go. Best of luck! Things worked out for me because we both just wanted it done and dusted, hopefully it'll be the same for you.

EdgeCase

There's some degree of understanding that marriages can be ended while the two parties are living together and that can be accepted as the date.

You don't actually need a solicitor to divorce here but it can be very useful for tying up all of the practicalities and finances. Solicitors will often add extra layers of agreements around finances to ensure there are no future issues.

If both parties are in agreement that they want to divorce and there are no financial disputes or children involved, it's very straightforward. You basically draft a joint agreement and proceed to divorce by consent.

In that case the judge will only really have to flip through the paperwork and the court really hasn't any involvement, other than to ensure you're both agreed that that's what you want to do and basically approves the agreement as the basis for the divorce.

You'll have to also state that the marriage is irreconcilable and there's really very little involved in that other than you agree that that is the case. The courts don't expect you to provide complex evidence of that. It's just a solemn statement.

If one party doesn't want to get divorced or if there's a argument to be settled over finances, property or custody of children, that's where the court gets actively involved but even then, it should already be hammered out between two solicitors if that's possible.

Irish divorce law doesn't actually seek to find fault. It's not like English law where you can't really divorce without a reason.

So in general, you'll be able to divorce here without drama. However the time out period applies and I would advise that you seek legal advice, especially if you’ve any disputes.

Also bear in mind that Irish divorce law doesn’t as yet offer a clean break so that's one reason I would suggest solicitor involvement to ensure that you're financially protected, particularly where there's any significant income differences or likelihood of one party to seek maintenance etc etc.

Dial Hard

ElizaBennett wrote: »

I love all the people so certain you can't get round the four year rule lol - obviously no direct experience. I got around it, at least to a certain extent. We were able to knock a whole year off (on the suggestion of my solicitor.) I was going to her to set the wheels in motion for legal separation when she noted we were already living apart 3 years. She said to me that if we were both willing to agree that the marriage had ended a year earlier then she could start divorce proceedings. Yes there was a lie involved but really, if you're both in agreement that the marriage ended and willing to agree on a date, what difference does it really make? You could argue anyway that the marriage had died much sooner than anyone actually moved out. So my suggestion to you is to ask him to agree to a date earlier than now (as you won't need to prove it if no one is contesting the truth of it) and that will at least knock some of the four years off for you and make it happen sooner. But I'd also try the annulment route as it's worth a try if he's willing to admit cheating from the get-go. Best of luck! Things worked out for me because we both just wanted it done and dusted, hopefully it'll be the same for you.

I don't really see the "Lol" about it. There is no legal & honest way around the four year rule, that is a pure and simple fact. You got away with, hurrah for you, but the judge in a divorce hearing is perfectly within their rights to look for proof that the couple have been separated for the time period in question and if it had happened to you, you would have been goosed. I really don't think advising the OP to lie in court (and laughing up your sleeve at everyone who has gone through due process) is particularly good advice.

Also, the OP's chances of obtaining an annulment are virtually nil. The grounds for applying are incredibly narrow and, unfortunately for the OP, she doesn't meet either of them. Her marriage was consummated and neither she nor her partner were incapable of entering into the marriage.

EdgeCase

An annulment can also be a pretty unpleasant and intrusive process. I wouldn't advise it.

A lot of people hear stories about annulment as an option largely because pre 1995 it was the only option.

You're looking at a scenario where you're either going to have to discuss the intricacies of your sex life to show non consummation or show that one of the parties entered into marriage without capacity to do so etc.

Also for all intents and purposes once you're separated you're going to be free to move on. Just put the divorce out of your head and get on with life until the day in court, which in a divorce by consent case could be as little as 1 minute in front of a judge. Everything's usually already worked out and agreed long before that.

It's just a long waiting time but I wouldn't treat it as some kind of purgatory period. My advice is get the process started and get on with your life.

Getting your finances and practical issues sorted is the main thing and if it's divorce by consent, with an agreement you're looking at really just waiting for the whole thing to time out and have our formalised.

It's really more of a bureaucratic process than a big drama for most couples.

I wish you the best of luck but definitely seek out some advice.

ElizaBennett

Dial Hard wrote: »

I don't really see the "Lol" about it. There is no legal & honest way around the four year rule, that is a pure and simple fact. You got away with, hurrah for you, but the judge in a divorce hearing is perfectly within their rights to look for proof that the couple have been separated for the time period in question and if it had happened to you, you would have been goosed. I really don't think advising the OP to lie in court (and laughing up your sleeve at everyone who has gone through due process) is particularly good advice.


I'll address the OP directly, as the purpose is to advise them: You asked if it was possible to get around the four year rule and I stated factually that yes it is because I did it and reduced the wait to three years, on my solicitor's recommendation. Myself and my ex husband were both fine with doing that, as you might or might not be. The important thing was all were in agreement and there were no complications. The reason I had a solicitor and barrister in court was to speed up the process and ensure the judge didn't need to quiz me closely as she was satisfied all was in order according to my legal council. Just wanted to tell you my experience because you were getting back a lot of very black and white answers. Life is not always black and white.

EdgeCase

There is a legal precedent set whereby a couple can be living apart but under the same roof but that their marriage is ended.
It's not misleading the court, if your marriage is genuinely over.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/parties-in-same-household-can-be-living-apart-within-meaning-of-divorce-statute-1.247508

The courts have never gone out of their way to force couples to stay together against their will. What they have generally done is to interpret the legislation reasonably flexibly.

There's very likely to be a future referendum to reduce that "time out" period.

It's basically fairly modern and progressive divorce legislation that was hamstrung by ultra conservative elements in the mid 1990s. The 4 of 5 years line was inserted directly into the constitutional amendment. It's not even open to the Oireachtas to change.

Attitudes have changed enormously and I think we have an acceptance that people don't rush into divorces without good reason and an acceptance that sometimes marriages don't work out and we don't live in some kind of romantic fantasy land where everything is absolutely perfect.

Dial Hard

EdgeCase wrote:

It's basically fairly modern and progressive divorce legislation that was hamstrung by ultra conservative elements in the mid 1990s. Attitudes have changed enormously and I think we have an acceptance that people don't rush into divorces without good reason and an acceptance that sometimes marriages don't work out and we don't live in some kind of romantic fantasy land where everything is absolutely perfect.

Listen, you're preaching to the choir here, I'm divorced myself. I just think that advising someone to actively lie in court is spectacularly poor advice. And there's a world of difference between doing that, and being effectively separated while still having to live together out of circumstance, which is what you're referring to.

Mind you, the court will generally still want to see COMPLETE separation of finances even in those cases. So no shared bills, no shared shopping, nothing. That's why the first question a solicitor taking on such a case will ask is whether there's *any* possibility that either party can move out.

And I have to say, based on my own experience and observations in court, I would disagree that the system doesn't want to make it difficult for people to divorce. There were cases in my callovers that had been before the court for years, one for 9 years. My ex and I were as clear-cut and amicable as you'll probably ever find and the judge still wanted to adjourn to give us a chance to "think it over". It took the pleading of both of us and our solicitors to stop that from happening. It's been four years, like! What could we possibly have to think over?!

EdgeCase

If you go into court and you take an oath to be honest, you have to take that seriously. Failure to do so is perjury.

The best approach to a divorce in Ireland is to start by drawing up a legal separation agreement and tying up all of the loose ends before you go anywhere near a court.

The ideal situation should be arriving in court with a fully formed agreement and all your Ts crossed and Is dotted and with no room for any kind of further argument or discussion.

You should be aiming to go in with a situation where the court is simply formalising your agreement as a divorce.

That's always the ideal situation.

Don't get overly worried about the time period and absolutely do move on with your life in the meantime.

We have an unusually slow divorce process and people genuinely understand that and know that you can't obtain a fast resolution.

All I would say time flies.

Hopefully any new divorce legislation moves it towards something more like arbitration and out of wasting time in the Circuit Court!

LastStop

Anon2305 wrote: »

I think my best option is probably divorce.

My question for this forum: Has anyone found a way around the 4 year waiting period and if so, what did you do?

Also, if anyone has any other tips or advice regarding divorce, that would be much appreciated.

Many thanks.

So you are separated from the time you found out that awful news, the relationship between you and him was over but you remained in the house while sorting out what you were going to do, everyone knows with rents, and shortage of properties, trying to get your own place isn't an easy task. So mark the date you found out as your separation date.

As for the 4 year rule, let's just pray the referendum on reducing the time to divorce from 4 years to 2 goes ahead alongside the local elections in May as planned and passed.

With a new 2 year rule and not much to split it's could be at least easy for yourself to deal with. as long as it's not contested by him.

Best of luck.

IHeartShoes

Also, the OP's chances of obtaining an annulment are virtually nil. The grounds for applying are incredibly narrow and, unfortunately for the OP, she doesn't meet either of them. Her marriage was consummated and neither she nor her partner were incapable of entering into the marriage.[/quote]

Your advice sounds absolute here when it is not. There are more than two grounds for seeking annulment. There are 5 or 6 grounds. As far as I’m aware there are civil annulments and religious annulments. But the OP should seek accurate legal advice on this question.

It can be a lengthy process - it took my friend three years to complete involving interviews by church with family and friends to evidence the veracity of the claims (nothing to do with consortium) it wasn’t particularly unpleasant. More tedious.

Best of luck OP.

.......

IHeartShoes wrote: »

There are more than two grounds for seeking annulment. There are 5 or 6 grounds. As far as I’m aware there are civil annulments and religious annulments.

There are either void marriages or voidable marriages under Irish law.

A void marriage means it was never valid to begin with:

To prove to the court that your marriage is void you must show one of the following grounds:

At the time of the marriage ceremony there was a lack of capacity. In other words, you or your spouse was incapable of entering into a binding contract. This may happen:
- where one of you was already validly married or in a civil partnership or

- where you were too closely related to each other or

- for a marriage ceremony that took place before 16 November 2015, where you were of the same biological sex

The formal requirements for a marriage ceremony were not followed. For example, you did not give due notice to the Registrar of Marriages.
At the time of the marriage, there was a lack of consent. In other words, you or your spouse did not give free and fully informed consent to the marriage. This may be due to duress, (i.e., you were forced into the marriage), mistake, misrepresentation or fraud. It may also be due to the fact that you or your spouse was suffering from a mental illness or was intoxicated at the time of the marriage.

A voidable marriage needs one of the following grounds:

To prove to the court that your marriage is voidable, you must show one of the following grounds:

At the time of the marriage ceremony, either party was impotent. You must show that either you or your spouse was unable to consummate the marriage. You cannot obtain a declaration of nullity because one of you is infertile or because one of you is simply refusing to consummate the marriage. It must be the case that one of you is incapable of sexual intercourse.

At the time of the marriage ceremony, either party was incapable of entering into and sustaining a proper or normal marriage relationship. This may be due to a psychiatric illness or personality disorder. It may also be due to the sexual orientation of one of the parties.

source

Religious annulment is irrelevant. Religious marriage has no legal standing in Ireland.

TheBoyConor

Loveinapril wrote: »

I'm so sorry that this has happened to you. For what it's worth, I would say it is VERY unlikely that they only slept together twice. As far as I know, if you are both Irish and married in Ireland you have to wait it out for the 4 years. An annullment can only be given if the marriage was not consumated or one of the parties couldn't sustain the marriage for some reason. I only know of one marriage that was annulled and it was because one of the parties was gay and admitted to getting married while knowing this.

Could OP not claim to be lesbian? I mean, how is anyone going to prove she is straight?

Monife

EdgeCase wrote: »

If you go into court and you take an oath to be honest, you have to take that seriously. Failure to do so is perjury.

The best approach to a divorce in Ireland is to start by drawing up a legal separation agreement and tying up all of the loose ends before you go anywhere near a court.

The ideal situation should be arriving in court with a fully formed agreement and all your Ts crossed and Is dotted and with no room for any kind of further argument or discussion.

You should be aiming to go in with a situation where the court is simply formalising your agreement as a divorce.

That's always the ideal situation.

Don't get overly worried about the time period and absolutely do move on with your life in the meantime.

We have an unusually slow divorce process and people genuinely understand that and know that you can't obtain a fast resolution.

All I would say time flies.

Hopefully any new divorce legislation moves it towards something more like arbitration and out of wasting time in the Circuit Court!

Hi, OP here. Went unreg for personal issues forum but on second thought, don't mind using my own profile.

The reason I want to try and get around the 4 year rule is my grandmother was due to sign some land over to us in a very desirable location to build on next year. Now, it will obviously be just signed over to me. But, I can't do this until we're divorced as he may have claim to it when we officially divorce. We are amicable and he says he wants nothing from me but the judge could still make an order against me seeing as I earn considerably more than him, have a pension and will have a considerable asset.

Going through all this is hard enough, without having to put my life on hold for a whole 4 years. We already put our lives on hold for a considerable time while I supported him through college and getting to a reasonable place in his career. I've been itching for my own house for at least 4 years and hate where I'm living (small rented apartment in a not so great area).

We were almost ready to go on the land transfer and planning permission before I found out. Lucky in a way that I found out before it was transferred to both of us. But I can't imagine being stuck in this ****ty apartment for another 4 years, I just want to get the ball rolling to move on with my life, while I still have a few decent years left (I'm 31).

I'm looking into solicitors now and will get legal advice shortly.

Thanks for all the replies.

TheBoyConor

Sounds like a crap situation, sorry you have found yourself in it.

You're 31, sounds like you got married very very young so. This can happen because at 23/24 most people are still finding themselves and figuring out who they are and what they want in life. I'd never recommend anyone get married so young, it's madness with irreversible consequences. having been with him 10 years you've never really been single as an adult so I think you might have missed out on a lot.
But don't talk yourself down at being 31. I hear people doing this and getting themelves in a knot because they are in their 30s and single. A few good years left? You're 31 - not 71. You are in your prime for many a year yet!

tara73

can you not just leave it in the name of your grandmother, doing the planning and planning permission and then start building it? so everything stays in the ownership of your granny for this time?

planning and building isn't done in a whimp (as you surely know), so the 4 years could be used for this.

Tina82

what a piece of **** ! thank your lucky stars you have no children with him. please dont fall for the sweet talk and promises he will make to you now that he has been found out for what he really is. i would cut all contact asap. Your life starts right now .... enjoy your own company and in time you will meet someone who will love and respect you ... thinking of you x

Monife

tara73 wrote: »

can you not just leave it in the name of your grandmother, doing the planning and planning permission and then start building it? so everything stays in the ownership of your granny for this time?

planning and building isn't done in a whimp (as you surely know), so the 4 years could be used for this.

This may be an option, but an expensive one. Right now the land is not worth much as there is no planning permission on it (valued at approx. €30,000, just under the grandparent to grandchild gift tax threshold). However, with planning permission it is valued at approx. €300-400,000 and with a house built on it, could reach over €700,000 (my gran's small enough 3 bedroom bungalow is valued at over €800,000, which is next door to the land). So I would be facing a gift/inheritance tax bill of over €200,000 if I was to do it this way.

Another hurdle, I don't think banks give self-build mortgages unless you own the land yourself.

So it's a bit of a mess.

Just hoping the proposed divorce referendum next May passes and that they remove the time limit. The private member's bill that instigated this proposed a reduction to 2 years however the government have been discussing removing the time limit altogether. In the UK and other countries, it's 12 months separation but if there was gross misconduct (of which adultery is one), you can seek an immediate divorce!

TheBoyConor

If immediate divorce came in for gross misconduct, say adultery being one example, then could an amicable couple that both wish for an immediate divorce just decide "yeah, we'll get a divorce straight away on the grounds of adultery. lets toss a coin to see who did". Could that work? If quizzed about the details of the affair by the judge could one just say, "oh I've no idea who s/he was Judge, they were a random drunken hookup off of tinder".

ElizaBennett

It's a very messy situation for you and I can see how it woudl be such a relief to just move on with your life and get going on the new house.
I'll reiterate once more that, due to an amicable relationship, my ex and I were able to agree that we'd been separated longer than we actually had been, which speeded things up a lot. Yes some people here have a problem with that but this sort of perjury is definitely my idea of a victimless crime - seriously! And it's especially silly to worry about it when the law is likely to change very soon and what was once not possible suddenly becomes so. It's just common sense to me to do the most you can to make this as easy as possible. And, as I mentioned, in my case it was the idea of my solicitor (who is now a judge btw..)

EdgeCase

TheBoyConor wrote: »

If immediate divorce came in for gross misconduct, say adultery being one example, then could an amicable couple that both wish for an immediate divorce just decide "yeah, we'll get a divorce straight away on the grounds of adultery. lets toss a coin to see who did". Could that work? If quizzed about the details of the affair by the judge could one just say, "oh I've no idea who s/he was Judge, they were a random drunken hookup off of tinder".

Irish divorces work on the basis that the relationship has broken down. You don't have to prove a party is at fault to obtain a divorce here. That's more of an issue in the English system where you have to have grounds and people often claim "unreasonable behaviour" to tick that box.

Basically you're asked if the marriage is unreconcilable.

It's likely that if there's any evolution of the divorce law here it'll be a removal of that hard time out period and also probably towards divorce by mediation where possible. In a lot of cases tying up the Circuit Court with cases that have been fully agreed and are by consent is an expensive waste of time for the state and the couple that's divorcing.