Numbers behind ESB EV calculator

BoatMad

Given my dealer has claimed around 2 euros a night for night rate recharging, I'm at a loss how the ESB calculator gets even lower figures. Is it assuming a percentage of free public charges. Surely that is nonsense on the long run as ESB have clearly stated it is t going to be free much longer ( ie 2017 )

Surely we should assume that at very best night rate costs are the minimum we are likely to pay

So I wonder what ESB are using to do these calculations , especially since they have stated on their web site recharging will be more expensive then night rate

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Given my dealer has claimed around 2 euros a night for night rate recharging, I'm at a loss how the ESB calculator gets even lower figures. Is it assuming a percentage of free public charges. Surely that is nonsense on the long run as ESB have clearly stated it is t going to be free much longer ( ie 2017 )

Surely we should assume that at very best night rate costs are the minimum we are likely to pay

So I wonder what ESB are using to do these calculations , especially since they have stated on their web site recharging will be more expensive then night rate

Any link to the calculator ?

All you got to do is multiply the 21-22 Kwh max by the cost of the night time electricity, in my case 8 cent per kwh then add 15% for consumption of the charger itself, it's about 85% efficient. Pre heating and cooling will add some more but don't know if it would be worth to count it. It might pull 2-3 kw for the first 10 mins and <1Kw for the next 20 mins depending on outside temps.

My consumption is roughly 18 kwh/100 Kms with a heavy right foot.

So if i've driven 20,000 kms since 15-20th january I divide 100 /20,000 gives me 200 multiply that by 18 gives me 3,600 Kwh consumed multiply 3,600 by 0.08 Cent = 288 Euro's + 15% for the charger = 331 Euro's .

5.1 L/100 Km diesel 1300 Euro's at today's prices, include higher motor tax and maintenance.

I've got a lot of Kwh free from the public chargers so that 331 Euro's is a lot less but I've had to charge at day rate while working nights, not going to cost a lot more because I work 15 days average per month.

BoatMad

Taking your figures and applying g night rate ( correctly ) at 10.19 cents inc vat

That's 1.83 cents per km for the leaf versus 4.7 cents per km for a 2016 Peugeot 208 1.6 tdi. ( 4 l per 100km , non urban , which is my case )

At the current battery size and price differentials you are saving about 900( inc motor tax) a year , it will take you in excess of 8 years to get a payback !!!!!!!!

This is not taking into account that currently Nissans PCP is twice as expensive as Peugeot , generating a 10 year payback. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's even hugely crazy if you buy the bigger battery version as you have to cover a further 3k

It's not looking at all right for EVs versus small turbo diesels. Wow

All these computations which talk about free public charging is nonsense. The ESB have publically stated they will charge for fast chargers and that it will be € 3-€5 per charge. Ie more then night rate.

We need to be doing apples and apples calculations here

Soarer

You're talking about doing apples with apples comparisons, and then skew your results to prove your point?
You mention the non-urban use of a 208, which is "your case". Why not post the combined figure, which would be more the norm (apple)? The Leaf price per km is the norm (apple).
You also mention the possible charging for a fast charges, but then conveniently don't mention the free charging from local points. I don't see any garages giving out free diesel from slower pumps!
Also, annual maintenance of a modern turbo diesel is an ever increasing cost. Annual servicing of a Leaf is minimal unless something goes wrong.

I'm sure I could use my current circumstance to skew figures in favour of the Leaf and poo-poo "normal" cars (drive less than 30kms per day and can charge for free in work everyday). But that's an individual case, just like yours.

Maybe the Leaf doesn't suit your current needs at the minute, even though you mention a €900 per year saving over the 208! But that's you. Saying " It's not looking at all right for EVs versus small turbo diesels. Wow" nay be correct in your case, but not overall.

Have you come across anyone that has bought a Leaf and regretted it?

BoatMad

Soarer wrote: »

You're talking about doing apples with apples comparisons, and then skew your results to prove your point?
You mention the non-urban use of a 208, which is "your case". Why not post the combined figure, which would be more the norm (apple)? The Leaf price per km is the norm (apple).
You also mention the possible charging for a fast charges, but then conveniently don't mention the free charging from local points. I don't see any garages giving out free diesel from slower pumps!
Also, annual maintenance of a modern turbo diesel is an ever increasing cost. Annual servicing of a Leaf is minimal unless something goes wrong.

I'm sure I could use my current circumstance to skew figures in favour of the Leaf and poo-poo "normal" cars (drive less than 30kms per day and can charge for free in work everyday). But that's an individual case, just like yours.

Maybe the Leaf doesn't suit your current needs at the minute, even though you mention a €900 per year saving over the 208! But that's you. Saying " It's not looking at all right for EVs versus small turbo diesels. Wow" nay be correct in your case, but not overall.

Have you come across anyone that has bought a Leaf and regretted it?

I can only compare my specific numbers cause anything else is a length of string argument and people start min maxing

I have taken 750km per week , but limited to 30,000 km. ( I don't do that mileage every week ) this my specific case. Loads of people mistate ESB rates leaving out the vat wtc

I have assuming all recharging is done at the lowest rates , ie night rate of 10.19 cents per KWh. Fast charging from ESB is likely to cost more as per ESB website.

I have assumed 4l per 100km for the 2016 1.6 diesel. Easily achievable , the golf polo claims 3.4 for example. I have assumed 18kwh per 100km efficiency using madlads own derived figures

I have left out servicing , it's not a big difference between the two, arguably I can do my own serve ing on the diesel , whereas not so on the leaf. It's about 150 a year in the difference ( so the payback falls to 7.5 years !!! ) tyres for leaf for example are more expensive according to nissan.

Based on that I would need to keep my leaf , for 8 years to break even with the diesel. Since no one knows what issues are likely to be around on an 6-8 year old leaf , that's a long time to assume anything.

Fundamentally the leaf is way overpriced , especially with the new battery. Paying for capacity is money wasted in reality , even though out of necessity one may need it.

As for happy buyers. So what , most people don't buy cars on direct price savings comparison. I know two Porsche owners who are also very happy, doesn't mean a thing.

To me an EV makes sense of if can save money ,( or even as a fan boy at least break even ) because That's the only upside, everything else is a downside , if the savings are small, for the disadvantages of( curent) EVs , what's the point.


As for the general case , it's even worse , low mileage users have even longer payback periods as the amount of fuel used is much smaller so savings are greater. Rental houses without night rate makes it even worse. I can see NO situation where price of an EV has an advantage
The greatest advantage comes from high mileage usage as the offset in fuel can " compensate" for the higherprice, but you'd have to be doing nutty annual mileage to make the leaf pay l leaving based range and charging issues

Boat_mad,

You won't find a 4.0L /100 Km manual diesel or 3.5 L/100 Km unless it's a pretty expensive 3 cylinder 14 second 0-60 small VW bluemotion polo. And at that you might struggle to reach the claimed mpg in real life calculated per tank not some trip computer reading. Then suffer the awful gearing of a bluemotion TDI or pretty much any modern diesel manual.

Even the Basic XE leaf (21,500 + 900 6.6 kw charger) is a far better car imo and far cheaper to run. Very few can match the mpg claims of any modern petrol or diesel because the claims come from a simulated driving test.

A 1.2 TDI Bluemotion DSG Polo costs 22, 200 or the 1.4 a 24,160 and is lesser equipped. Smaller car. SV leaf 24,500 add the 6.6 + 900 not a lot extra to spend for the bigger car with more kit.

I've given a very real life honest to God figure for the Leaf, pretty high consumption because I don't drive too easy but I don't break the limits either but do enjoy the acceleration.

Any my night rate electricity is 8C per Kwh including vat, please don't try adjust numbers for me. I know what I pay !!!

Electricity is to come down 20% in the coming months also. Will mean 6.4 C per KWh night rate. INC vat.

You're seriously comparing a 1.4 Diesel manual 208 70 HP smaller car to the leaf ?

20 K 200 Extra for "start stop" lol

So the XE LEaf will cost what 22,400 with 6.6 Kw charger a lot more fun to drive and ultra cheap to run.

Why don't you really compare like with like and compare the leaf to the 308 1.6 HDI 26,265 Euro's lesser quipped "Manual" that costs much more to run ?

Soarer

BoatMad wrote: »

I can only compare my specific numbers cause anything else is a length of string argument and people start min maxing

I have taken 750km per week , but limited to 30,000 km. ( I don't do that mileage every week ) this my specific case. Loads of people mistate ESB rates leaving out the vat wtc

I have assuming all recharging is done at the lowest rates , ie night rate of 10.19 cents per KWh. Fast charging from ESB is likely to cost more as per ESB website.

I have assumed 4l per 100km for the 2016 1.6 diesel. Easily achievable , the golf polo claims 3.4 for example. I have assumed 18kwh per 100km efficiency using madlads own derived figures

I have left out servicing , it's not a big difference between the two, arguably I can do my own serve ing on the diesel , whereas not so on the leaf. It's about 150 a year in the difference ( so the payback falls to 7.5 years !!! ) tyres for leaf for example are more expensive according to nissan.

Based on that I would need to keep my leaf , for 8 years to break even with the diesel. Since no one knows what issues are likely to be around on an 6-8 year old leaf , that's a long time to assume anything.

Fundamentally the leaf is way overpriced , especially with the new battery. Paying for capacity is money wasted in reality , even though out of necessity one may need it.

As for happy buyers. So what , most people don't buy cars on direct price savings comparison. I know two Porsche owners who are also very happy, doesn't mean a thing.

To me an EV makes sense of if can save money ,( or even as a fan boy at least break even ) because That's the only upside, everything else is a downside , if the savings are small, for the disadvantages of( curent) EVs , what's the point.


As for the general case , it's even worse , low mileage users have even longer payback periods as the amount of fuel used is much smaller so savings are greater. Rental houses without night rate makes it even worse. I can see NO situation where price of an EV has an advantage
The greatest advantage comes from high mileage usage as the offset in fuel can " compensate" for the higherprice, but you'd have to be doing nutty annual mileage to make the leaf pay l leaving based range and charging issues

So basically this thread is completely pointless, as all it does is point out that the Leaf doesn't suit your needs!

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Boat_mad,

You won't find a 4.0L /100 Km manual diesel or 3.5 L/100 Km unless it's a pretty expensive 3 cylinder 14 second 0-60 small VW bluemotion polo. And at that you might struggle to reach the claimed mpg in real life calculated per tank not some trip computer reading. Then suffer the awful gearing of a bluemotion TDI or pretty much any modern diesel manual.

Even the Basic XE leaf (21,500 + 900 6.6 kw charger) is a far better car imo and far cheaper to run. Very few can match the mpg claims of any modern petrol or diesel because the claims come from a simulated driving test.

A 1.2 TDI Bluemotion DSG Polo costs 22, 200 or the 1.4 a 24,160 and is lesser equipped. Smaller car. SV leaf 24,500 add the 6.6 + 900 not a lot extra to spend for the bigger car with more kit.

I've given a very real life honest to God figure for the Leaf, pretty high consumption because I don't drive too easy but I don't break the limits either but do enjoy the acceleration.

Any my night rate electricity is 8C per Kwh including vat, please don't try adjust numbers for me. I know what I pay !!!

Electricity is to come down 20% in the coming months also. Will mean 6.4 C per KWh night rate. INC vat.

You're seriously comparing a 1.4 Diesel manual 208 70 HP smaller car to the leaf ?

20 K 200 Extra for "start stop" lol

So the XE LEaf will cost what 22,400 with 6.6 Kw charger a lot more fun to drive and ultra cheap to run.

Why don't you really compare like with like and compare the leaf to the 308 1.6 HDI 26,265 Euro's lesser quipped "Manual" that costs much more to run ?

I'd love to know how you are getting 8 cents for night rate. My electric Ireland rate is 10.19

Thanks re model comparisons. The 208 is a size we need , the leaf is fixed so we've no choice , levels of equipment are similar. Ps the 2016 208 is a 1.6

I have tested my route with two small diesels, 4l /100 km is achievable without much effort. My route has no urban driving

I, not sure what you mean fun to drive. The leaf is fairly pedantic as is the 208. I once owned a chipped 300zx nissan , now that was " fun to drive "

Of course there are savings , upto 1000-1200 a year , but that has to be offset against the much dearer leaf. I need the bigger battery and hence that forces is into the SV.

Comparing things like manual versus auto is actually nonsense. The leaf is not automatic , it just doesn't need a gearbox. I don't need an automatic , I do need cruise control . The leaf spec is basically take it or leave it. I need the bigger battery as I've no opportunity to charge during the day and the round trip commute is 150 km

I want to avoid a fan boy comparison because actually I'm guilty of such activities myself. I'd love the leaf because of my engineering interests. But I want to be stone cold sober in reaching a decision

I've driven and owned everything from a 130 k range rover to a 500 euro stilo . I've seen great creative accounting around cars as people including me as people justify purchase decisions

DrPhilG

BoatMad wrote: »

I'd love to know how you are getting 8 cents for night rate. My electric Ireland rate is 10.19

Mine is 8.9c for the next year.

shanemkelly

BoatMad wrote: »

I'd love to know how you are getting 8 cents for night rate. My electric Ireland rate is 10.19

I'm getting 8.76c/unit from Electric Ireland...

DrPhilG

BoatMad wrote: »

My electric Ireland rate is 10.19

DrPhilG wrote: »

Mine is 8.9c for the next year.

shanemkelly wrote: »

I'm getting 8.76c/unit from Electric Ireland...

Not so good at the oul math after all BoatMad?

BoatMad

DrPhilG wrote: »

Not so good at the oul math after all BoatMad?

well if people are saying that 8+ cents after VAT is added is possible from Electric Ireland , I shall be ringing customer services

samih

You should alright. I'm paying 8.07 c/kWh inc VAT with SSE Airtricity. And according to the instrument cluster I'm averaging 14.7 kWh/100 km excluding the charging inefficiencies. Covered 5500 km within last 6 weeks. Would somebody like to do maths for me?

Nah, I'll do it myself. This is a direct comparison between my old petrol car and the leaf which in my case would have been the case. The old car, a SAAB 9-5 was slightly roomier inside, maybe.

5500km x (14.7kWh/100km) x 1.15 x €0.0807 = €75.03 for power (in reality I did about 75 percent using public charging).

My old car fuel cost would have been: 5500km x 9.6 l/100km x €1.30/l = €686.4 for petrol. It did not have any capital costs as the car purchase price was €250. The 9.6 l/100km was according my own calculations over the past number of years. The old cars tax cost another €60 a month, whereas leaf is €10 (so €90 vs. 15 for 6 weeks). Insurance is the same. Finance costs me €380 a month so 6 weeks is about €590. So compared to the old car I'm driving a 15 years newer car with pretty much the same monthly cost. In the long term the old car would have cost less per month as I'm unlikely to continue to drive 50000 km per year. At the same time Leaf probably won't need any repairs unlike my old car. It will be interesting to see how the numbers look after the intended life time of 5 years for the leaf.

BoatMad

samih wrote: »

You should alright. I'm paying 8.07 c/kWh inc VAT with SSE Airtricity. And according to the instrument cluster I'm averaging 14.7 kWh/100 km excluding the charging inefficiencies. Covered 5500 km within last 6 weeks. Would somebody like to do maths for me?

Thanks I will,


14.7 Kwh per 100km seems very good, compared to 18kWh I was using. Its hard to evaluate in advance with rate per 100Km I might get , Ill know next week when I complete the trial , even it theres a limited number of samples obviously

at that price you are paying 1.186 cent per Km, well better then my estimate of 1.67 based on my currently ( and not for long ) higher night rate, and using MadLads 18kWh/100Km figure as an estimate of efficiency

What do you put t down your efficiency to, do you drive slow etc

samih

I drive at indicated 100-110 on motorways and follow the speed limits everywhere else. I'll try to read the road ahead as much as possible and go with the flow of the road.

BoatMad

samih wrote: »

I drive at indicated 100-110 on motorways and follow the speed limits everywhere else. I'll try to read the road ahead as much as possible and go with the flow of the road.

Thats very interesting it would suggest that the 150Km per charge is a realistic achievable figure. ( on the assumption that about 21KwH is useable from the battery). I wonder what the range at 120Kmph is like , Ive got several different figures

samih

The range seem to plummet after indicated 110 km/h. As a test I drove from Gorey to Applegreen Cullenmore on Saturday and the car seem to use dramatically more juice than on the way down earlier that day, 40 percent of battery used over 46km. In general avoiding motorways is probably a good thing if you are not in a hurry.

Yesterday I drove from north Kildare to north Antrim coast. The first charge was in at Esso Monaghan after just under 130 km (took N7 to Navan, then Carrickmacross where I joined the N2). The car still indicated about 25 km remaining with the 1st low battery warning just seen. Conditions were pretty much perfect with no wind etc but a bit cold. The car still reported 15 percent of battery remaining when I plugged it in.

On the way back there was headwind and lots of water on the road and under those conditions the range again plummets. The first low battery warning came already after 100 km which I have never seen before. The total range yesterday would only have be around 120 km in a push I reckon.

So I covered 550 km yesterday with 4 rapid charges and one two hour charge at a standard 6.6 kWh charger while touring the Glenarm castle.

BoatMad

samih wrote: »

The range seem to plummet after indicated 110 km/h. As a test I drove from Gorey to Applegreen Cullenmore on Saturday and the car seem to use dramatically more juice than on the way down earlier that day, 40 percent of battery used over 46km. In general avoiding motorways is probably a good thing if you are not in a hurry.

Yesterday I drove from north Kildare to north Antrim coast. The first charge was in at Esso Monaghan after just under 130 km (took N7 to Navan, then Carrickmacross where I joined the N2). The car still indicated about 25 km remaining with the 1st low battery warning just seen. Conditions were pretty much perfect with no wind etc but a bit cold. The car still reported 15 percent of battery remaining when I plugged it in.

On the way back there was headwind and lots of water on the road and under those conditions the range again plummets. The first low battery warning came already after 100 km which I have never seen before. The total range yesterday would only have be around 120 km in a push I reckon.

So I covered 550 km yesterday with 4 rapid charges and one two hour charge at a standard 6.6 kWh charger while touring the Glenarm castle.

Thanks for that
when you say the range plummets , have you an idea to what . if I'm late an pushing up the motorway at 120kmph, and its raining etc , does it half or what ?

I suppose Ill answer this my self soon enough

samih

BoatMad wrote: »

Thanks for that
when you say the range plummets , have you an idea to what . if I'm late an pushing up the motorway at 120kmph, and its raining etc , does it half or what ?

I suppose Ill answer this my self soon enough

According to my quick test the range of the car is just over 100km at indicated 125 km/h whereas at 85 km/h the range would be over 150 km.

BoatMad

samih wrote: »

According to my quick test the range of the car is just over 100km at indicated 125 km/h whereas at 85 km/h the range would be over 150 km.

thanks, it all feeds into my thinking , I'm right on the edge of the envelope with the Leaf but at the same time, the big commute 150 round trip offers the greatest amount of savings

thanks agin

pwurple

Boatman, aside from your figures on electricity being a bit off, and not including things like employer charging (where we do the vast majority of our charging now) I don't get your maintenance being more expensive on a leaf. Even with your 'free' labour (I never price my own time as free btw), there are all the consumables and parts to consider for engines which electric cars simply don't have. Oil for yr oil changes, spark plugs, timing belts yadda yadda. The servicing for the leaf apparently is more of a full valet and a checkup than anything else.

Padraig Mor

BoatMad wrote: »

Thats very interesting it would suggest that the 150Km per charge is a realistic achievable figure. ( on the assumption that about 21KwH is useable from the battery). I wonder what the range at 120Kmph is like , Ive got several different figures

Range plummets over 100km/h or so. At an indicated 120 (real speed ~110km/h), I wouldn't expect to be seeing 100km range.

BoatMad

pwurple wrote: »

Boatman, aside from your figures on electricity being a bit off, and not including things like employer charging (where we do the vast majority of our charging now) I don't get your maintenance being more expensive on a leaf. Even with your 'free' labour (I never price my own time as free btw), there are all the consumables and parts to consider for engines which electric cars simply don't have. Oil for yr oil changes, spark plugs, timing belts yadda yadda. The servicing for the leaf apparently is more of a full valet and a checkup than anything else.

In my calculations , i have added in 200 euros a year in savings attributed to lower servicing costs , maybe that got lost in the mists. I was merely making the point that I could service an ICE myself but not a leaf. ( even though in practice , I dont as a rule )

BoatMad

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Range plummets over 100km/h or so. At an indicated 120 (real speed ~110km/h), I wouldn't expect to be seeing 100km range.

yes this is a concern , e.g. running late for work and having to put the boot down stuff,

The car has to cope with real life !

Padraig Mor

BoatMad wrote: »

yes this is a concern , e.g. running late for work and having to put the boot down stuff,

The car has to cope with real life !

My requirements for the Leaf was that it would fit with my typical usage comfortably as follows:

Leave work with 80% charge.
30km commute home with diversion of ~10km for visiting someone, shopping etc.
30km back to work next day.
Half motorway at indicated 120 - 150km/h.
And still have 20% left at the end.

Works for me anyway!

BoatMad

Padraig Mor wrote: »

My requirements for the Leaf was that it would fit with my typical usage comfortably as follows:

Leave work with 80% charge.
30km commute home with diversion of ~10km for visiting someone, shopping etc.
30km back to work next day.
Half motorway at indicated 120 - 150km/h.
And still have 20% left at the end.

Works for me anyway!

worse case for me , say would be 80% charge , 70km morning commute , mostly motorway , leave late ( it happens ) and hence 130+kmph up the motorway

no current work charge possible ( no suitable parking) , I then need a minimum to get to a fast charger 25km away, it would seem its on the edge !

My official consumption 17.2 but I was pretty close at guessing based on resetting the trip computer daily just goes to show on petrol , diesel or electric it's best not to reset the trip computer at all. Goes to show why you shouldn't clock a Nissan Leaf and probably any EV !!!

I've almost 20K Kms it's off a little because it took a while to get Carwings set up but this is what my heavy enough foot has cost me having said that there are many trips I've done that are 14-19 Kwh /100 km efficiency.

It really is interesting going back through any day of the month to see my consumption.

Multiply 3,245 kwh by 8 cent per Kwh = 259 Euro's + charger inefficiency of 15% = 298 Euro's and isn't that pretty close to my calculation I posted several posts ago ? pity I didn't think of pulling the data form carwings earlier.

On shift I've had to charge at peak rate while working nights but I've got a lot of free electricity from the fast chargers and AC charge points.