Child maintenance/access advice

Rock77

Hi all, some advise would be great.

So im not sure if I should apply to have my access changed and maintenance payments reduced. Here's the story.

I pay €85 per week and its a court order from 5ish years ago, I have 1 child with my ex.
I take my child every second weekend, court order cos i lived a bit of a distance away at the time and they said every week was too much travelling, I now live 10 mins away and would love to have her every weekend.

My wife is due her first baby soon and her job are not renewing her contract so we will be down around €240 a week so im very worried,I dont see how we can manage.

Will the court consider my wifes finances and does the fact ive a baby on the way come into it, also my ex's partner has moved in with her, so since we were in court she's financially better off while im going to be a lot worse off. My ex wont agree to either changes to maintenance or access.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

ABajaninCork

Get a solicitor. The court may or may not consider varying the order, but nobody on here can tell you for sure. Only a solicitor can do that...

Shrap

Rock77 wrote: »

Will the court consider my wifes finances and does the fact ive a baby on the way come into it, also my ex's partner has moved in with her, so since we were in court she's financially better off while im going to be a lot worse off. My ex wont agree to either changes to maintenance or access.

I definitely think it's worth revisiting the court order under your changed circumstances, and her's. However, it is worth going every route to avoid court first, but like the above poster says, start with a solicitor for advice. I'd also talk to a family mediation service too and try and arrange an appointment for you both. If she doesn't agree to that, then if it comes to court, that will look pretty inflexible of her. A family law solicitor will advise you better though.

Rock77

Thanks a million for the advice.

homerjay2005

Rock77 wrote: »

My ex wont agree to either changes to maintenance or access.

stop paying for a few weeks and see how she reacts!

but in the meantime, set up a court case.

Tasden

homerjay2005 wrote: »

stop paying for a few weeks and see how she reacts!

Would hope its obvious but just in case-don't do this op

homerjay2005

Tasden wrote: »

Would hope its obvious but just in case-don't do this op

why not? she wont budge, so the only way to do it is to force here into it. a 5 year court order is outdated at this stage and €85 a week is a hell of a lot of money to be paying, i can be pretty sure the mother is paying nowhere near €170 a week on the kid.

Tasden

homerjay2005 wrote: »

why not? she wont budge, so the only way to do it is to force here into it. a 5 year court order is outdated at this stage and €85 a week is a hell of a lot of money to be paying, i can be pretty sure the mother is paying nowhere near €170 a week on the kid.

Its court ordered so he's obliged to pay, and its his duty as a father to pay maintenance. If he stops paying the court is not going to look favourably on him. Also he cant punish his child (who the money is for) because the mother is being unreasonable. You know nothing about what the mother spends on her child.

homerjay2005

Tasden wrote: »

Its court ordered so he's obliged to pay, and its his duty as a father to pay maintenance. If he stops paying the court is not going to look favourably on him. Also he cant punish his child (who the money is for) because the mother is being unreasonable. You know nothing about what the mother spends on her child.

and likewise you are in no position to say the child is being punished because he wont pay up. i do know that no child in this country costs €170 a week to their parents unless there are other factors (health, childcare (which then is open to interpretation as, due to the fact she is with holding access to the child, she should be liable for her own childcare costs), which has not been outlined by the OP.

also, why should his newborn child be "punished" due to a court order thats 5 years out of date? as i said, with hold the money to get her to talk, but have the court case already planned if she doesnt budge.

have all moneys paid in full then before the court and bingo, OP has nothing to hide as there is no money owed.if the OP plays it smart, then there is nothing that can work against him

Tasden

homerjay2005 wrote: »

and likewise you are in no position to say the child is being punished because he wont pay up. if the OP plays it smart, then there is nothing that can work against him

also, why should his newborn child be "punished" due to a court order thats 5 years out of date? as i said, with hold the money to get her to talk, but have the court case already planned if she doesnt budge.

have all moneys paid in full then before the court and bingo, OP has nothing to hide as there is no money owed.

The child is being punished by not receiving the money owed. The money is for the child, hes not keeping the money from the mother, hes keeping it from the child. "Deny" then if you wanna be pedantic about the terms used.

OP, speak to a solicitor or engage with the family mediation service. Keep paying until you're told otherwise. "Playing it smart" will do you no favours.

homerjay2005

Tasden wrote: »

The child is being punished by not receiving the money owed. The money is for the child, hes not keeping the money from the mother, hes keeping it from the child. "Deny" then if you wanna be pedantic about the terms used.

so you can categorically say that every single cent is going to the child? Bulls*it.

OP is being taken for a ride here and needs to start standing up for himself a little bit.

Tasden

homerjay2005 wrote: »

so you can categorically say that every single cent is going to the child? Bulls*it.

OP is being taken for a ride here and needs to start standing up for himself a little bit.

And his way to do that is through the family courts, not by withholding money.

homerjay2005

Tasden wrote: »

And his way to do that is through the family courts, not by withholding money.

if she coperates, then they may not need courts.

Tasden

homerjay2005 wrote: »

if she coperates, then they may not need courts.

Why on earth would she cooperate if he doesn't? She is refusing to negotiate with him so he needs to go to court or mediation.

LegacyUser

homerjay2005 wrote: »

so you can categorically say that every single cent is going to the child? Bulls*it.

OP is being taken for a ride here and needs to start standing up for himself a little bit.

And he does that through the courts. The ins and outs of what and where the money goes is irrelevant here as is the age of the court order. The court order remains in place until it's altered by the court. If he just stops paying or pays less the mother can go to the courts and have a warrant issued for his arrest for non payment of legally binding court order.

She's being unreasonable now, how is stopping payment going to make her more reasonable? Legally she is in the right (agree with that or not it's the facts of the case right now) and the courts are unlikely to be sympathetic to him just stopping payment. Maintenance and access are two separate issues and are dealt with seperatly not always by the same judge so if his ex states he is not paying maintenance it's not likely he will be granted additional access.

OP take the advice at the start of the thread - speak to a solicitor and then go to court to get everything sorted legally above board so there is no disputing anything from anyone.

Rubberchikken

don't take the advise to just stop the payments.
the only one who will lose in a bad situation is your child.
speak to a solicitor. mediation sounds a sensible route also.

you say she won't consider changing the amount, but sometimes people need time to process info and with the help of a mediator could come around to reaching a compromise which would be better for everyone.

PucaMama

homerjay2005 wrote: »

why not? she wont budge, so the only way to do it is to force here into it. a 5 year court order is outdated at this stage and €85 a week is a hell of a lot of money to be paying, i can be pretty sure the mother is paying nowhere near €170 a week on the kid.

he has 2 children, he has to pay for both. the court order is not "outdated" the child has just aged 5 years....

pc7

Would you put it in writing to your ex requesting a reduction in maintenance for now and requesting the change in access. Ask that she reply in writing and when you get that then apply for a court date if she's unagreeable, it will show the judge you have tried to work this out without court.

LegacyUser

homerjay2005 wrote: »

why not? she wont budge, so the only way to do it is to force here into it. a 5 year court order is outdated at this stage and €85 a week is a hell of a lot of money to be paying, i can be pretty sure the mother is paying nowhere near €170 a week on the kid.

If she's paying for creche/childminder should could easily be hitting 170 when you add in everything else. His share goes towards raising his child that means everything involved with rising the child including a % of rent and utilities, food, clothing, transport, activities, schooling, childminder or afterschool club etc etc...everything the OP would be contributing toward his child if he and the ex were still together. The OP doesn't state if they are or aren't putting anything extra towards big costs like back to school etc etc then 170 x 52 is near 9000euro for the year, go ask any on the parenting forum and they'll tell you that's under what most economist say you need to raise a child.

There's no forcing her into anything, she has a legally binding court order so the OP would just be kicking himself if he stopped paying. Most likely the courts would not grant the reduction and would demand he pay the outstanding amount if he starts pulling stunts like not paying. OP try and talk to your ex and get her to agree and then go get the court order changed. Don't agree to a change without also changing the court order as months/years down the line she could go looking for back pay if you've nothing legally signed.

OUTOFSYNC

Dont stop paying maintenance , it could back fire on you in court and make the mother even more hostile. Potentially very bad for you and more importantly your kid.

Asking for every weekend might also be too much as the mother needs quality time also with your kid.

Would you consider aiming for 50:50 physical custody ? The kid changes home every Wednesday for example and holidays are split. This can be the best for kids if both homes are loving and parents live cloas enough to each other .

I would try to engage mother in mediation etc before going to court . It might work out or cynically will make her look bad if she refuses to engage when you do go to court.

John_D80

Rock77 wrote: »

Hi all, some advise would be great.

So im not sure if I should apply to have my access changed and maintenance payments reduced. Here's the story.

I pay €85 per week and its a court order from 5ish years ago, I have 1 child with my ex.
I take my child every second weekend, court order cos i lived a bit of a distance away at the time and they said every week was too much travelling, I now live 10 mins away and would love to have her every weekend.

My wife is due her first baby soon and her job are not renewing her contract so we will be down around €240 a week so im very worried,I dont see how we can manage.

Will the court consider my wifes finances and does the fact ive a baby on the way come into it, also my ex's partner has moved in with her, so since we were in court she's financially better off while im going to be a lot worse off. My ex wont agree to either changes to maintenance or access.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Alright Mate. Your situation totally mirrors my own from a few years ago so anything i post here is based on my own experience.

First off, get a solicitor. Even if you think you dont need one, trust me, you do. It will cost you one or two hundred quid but your solicitor will get you the best ''deal''. Secondly, DO NOT under any circumstances withhold any of your maintenance payments. Despite the advice of some other posters, it will not force her to play ball and change the access agreement. If anything it will make just piss her off (and rightly so) but you sound like a sensible sort so i'm sure you know this money is for your kid and not for her.

If its not so already, arrange to have your maintenance paid by direct debit so you will always have a record of it. A dad who is honoring his maintenance commitments is far more likely to get a fair deal from a family law judge.

The old agreement(s) were made under very different circumstances so a good reasonable judge will take your current financial situation into account when deciding whether or not to grant a variation. And yes of course the fact that you now have a wife and a new baby on the way will be a huge factor. But be willing and ready to submit a detailed breakdown of earnings and outgoings.

Your ex's current financial situation has zero bearing on your maintenance. Even if she has become a mllionaire in the last 5 years, you still have to make a fair contribution to your childs upbringing.

Good luck, hope this helps. If you take noting else away from this, GET A SOLICITOR. Too many good dads go into court without one, spluttering and stuttering and end up getting shafted.

If you have any questions i will be happy to do my best to answer them. (In this thread of course)

Ave Sodalis

OP, I had to delete a very long ranty post as I've been the child of a maintenance cut back. Just please make sure your child isn't losing out because of you and make sure there isn't other areas that can be budgetted on instead if you know the child will suffer.

DamagedTrax

homerjay2005 wrote: »

if she coperates, then they may not need courts.

and if she doesnt, he's walking into a judge having stopped payments. clearly you've had no dealings in family court (or fell asleep during them) but a judge would sh1t on you from a height if you stopped payment to prove a point.

OP, please do not listen to homerjay's advice. it is the worst advice for such a sensitive and potentially volatile situation.

ShowMeTheCash

As you now live closer this is something that can be maybe be revisited, talk to your ex and see is willing to share custoday if not go down the solicitor route, you seem to suggest that the distance is why you did not get more custody, however this was 5 years ago they might not change it.

Just on some of the other comments:
If you just stop payments you will be in breach of the court order so you will be off to a bad start if you go to court, you may even find you will lose your "every other weekend" and she pushes for supervised visits which can happen if you refuse payment, ultimately you are not refusing money to your ex you have refused money for a child (Not a very responsible thing to do)

This might be a little hard to hear but you are not the childs guardian, your ex is, seeing the child every other weekend is not a lot and just because your life has now changed does not mean that your ex or your child now need to change to accomodate you, If your ex does not want to give you more access you might find it difficult to get a court to rule in your favour so I would try and persude your ex.

As for the 85 euro a week, again this will sound harsh... You make'm you need to pay for them! What your ex is doing or how well she is doing (With new boyfriend/husband) has nothing and I mean nothing to do with your responsibility. You tell a judge you have another baby on the way they are going to have a go at you, a new responsibility does not negate an existing one nor does it strengthen an argument for more custody.

Pay the 85 euro, ask for more custody, if more custody is granted then you can perhaps bring up money...

Tasden

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

This might be a little hard to hear but you are not the childs guardian, your ex is, seeing the child every other weekend is not a lot and just because your life has now changed does not mean that your ex or your child now need to change to accomodate you, If your ex does not want to give you more access you might find it difficult to get a court to rule in your favour so I would try and persude your ex.


.

Did OP even mention his status re guardianship? That has nothing really to do with custody/access btw.

And the arrangements that are in place are what he was granted so that's actually not his "fault", he is now looking to change that arrangement as circumstances now suit for him to take the child more often. Access orders can be changed based on new circumstances etc. And the court take it all into consideration and do what is in the child's best interest so if the father is in a position to spend more time with the child and there is no valid reason for him not to then I cant see why you would say it'd be difficult to get a court to rule in his favour. Not saying he'll get the exact arrangements he's requesting or that he'll even get any additional access but I can't see why anyone would assume he wouldn't either.

Macker2001

85 euro a week sounds very little to maintain a child. I don't know how they could agree to a decrease. Regarding another child, I would think you should have thought of the expense before having another.

Shrap

Christ. 85 euro? I'd be pure delighted if I got half that towards my kid's upkeep. I know that most of you live in the employed world and if that's the case with the OP's ex then child-care is going to cost twice that per week, and then some from what I've heard.

However, if she's claiming lone-parent allowance (like me) then with an extra roughly 40 euro per week (the Social Welfare takes back approx half of whatever maintenance you get...) she should be happy out. I know of no lone parent who gets that. None of my business which or whether she's on the S.W., but if she has the extra 40 p/w then she's on more money than half the country is and to me, that kind of money coming in every week would mean never having to wonder which bill to default on.

And that's all without taking the ex's partner into account at all. While I wouldn't begrudge her that really good maintenance, I also wouldn't begrudge that the OP has moved on and is expecting another child, and is also willing and able to provide more access than he has currently. That child-care alone would make the child cheaper to maintain. I think he's well within his rights to go look for a reduction (however slight) and an increase in access.

ShowMeTheCash

Tasden wrote: »

Did OP even mention his status re guardianship? That has nothing really to do with custody/access btw.

And the arrangements that are in place are what he was granted so that's actually not his "fault", he is now looking to change that arrangement as circumstances now suit for him to take the child more often. Access orders can be changed based on new circumstances etc. And the court take it all into consideration and do what is in the child's best interest so if the father is in a position to spend more time with the child and there is no valid reason for him not to then I cant see why you would say it'd be difficult to get a court to rule in his favour. Not saying he'll get the exact arrangements he's requesting or that he'll even get any additional access but I can't see why anyone would assume he wouldn't either.

My post was aimed at the OP however

http://www.treoir.ie/information-guardianship.php

The mother is automatically the sole guardian of her child

The father does not have any automatic guardianship rights in respect of his child even if his name is on his child's birth cert.

And it has everything to do with custody, as the guardian of the child she alone decides what is best for the child.

Tasden

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

My post was aimed at the OP however

http://www.treoir.ie/information-guardianship.php

The mother is automatically the sole guardian of her child

The father does not have any automatic guardianship rights in respect of his child even if his name is on his child's birth cert.

And it has everything to do with custody, as the guardian of the child she alone decides what is best for the child.

She may have awarded guardianship if they weren't married, or having gone through court etc he more than likely would have sought guardianship too (although its not necessary to do such). But none of us know, hence me asking if he said anything re guardianship.

Access/custody and guardianship are separate issues in family law, and in actual fact his guardianship or lack thereof is not actually a factor when applying for access or a change in the access order, although seeking guardianship is advised if he wants to be involved in making major decisions in the child's life.

John_D80

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

And it has everything to do with custody, as the guardian of the child she alone decides what is best for the child.

Custody is not even an issue here in fairness, going by what the OP has said so far. He is seeking to increase access. That's something totally different.

In family law a judge can overrule anyone, guardian or not, so it's not strictly true to say she (the mother) decides what is best.

And guardianship is not a factor in access agreements at all.

ShowMeTheCash

John_D80 wrote: »

Custody is not even an issue here in fairness, going by what the OP has said so far. He is seeking to increase access. That's something totally different.

In family law a judge can overrule anyone, guardian or not, so it's not strictly true to say she (the mother) decides what is best.

And guardianship is not a factor in access agreements at all.

OK let me rephrase as it stand the mother makes all the decisions.
The only way that changes is unless court ordered.

If he goes to court and the mother is totally against it can be difficult.

Shrap

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

OK let me rephrase as it stand the mother makes all the decisions.
The only way that changes is unless court ordered.

If he goes to court and the mother is totally against it can be difficult.

I'd like to rephrase that again and say that as it stands, the parent who is the primary carer makes all the decisions (although it may be written into a separation agreement that access for example, is flexible), unless court ordered.

If the parents go to court and the primary carer is totally against further access, it can be difficult.

Klingon Hamlet

If you're based in Dublin I believe Dolphin House offer free mediation which encourages both parents to settle on a fair compromise re access maintenance guardianship everything. It's worth a shot

Rock77

Thanks for the replies lads, so I am the child's legal guardian however in my opinion this wont make a difference to access or maintenance. I have paid via direct debit since the order was put in place. Trust me I hear u when u say I should hav thought about the cost before having another child but again I now earn less and have higher outgoings.

I won't be stopping the payments, thanks for the advice though! I know I have to pay, always have and always will. I just wanted to know if, and under what circumstances access could be changed and maintenance reduced. Look, I've not been on holiday in years, I drive a twelve year old car but I pay for my child, who wants for nothing.
Her mother owns her own house, brand new car, has brought my child to Lapland and Disneyland and a sun hol every year so it's not like she's struggling!

ABajaninCork

Did you speak to a solicitor?

eviltwin

OP I'd be a bit more realistic in your expectations. I think asking to see the child EVERY weekend is a bit much. Even though your ex has custody of her during the week its really hard to spend any quality time with your child while they are in school and her mum needs to have some of that time with her too. Maybe go with every second weekend if you can and a midweek?

John_D80

Have you considered one night every weekend as opposed to the full weekend every fortnight? Perhaps alternating Fridays and Saturdays week by week, with maybe a full weekend every month or two??

Or perhaps now that you live a bit closer, maybe consider a night or two midweek.

Stench Blossoms

Rock77 wrote: »

Her mother owns her own house, brand new car, has brought my child to Lapland and Disneyland and a sun hol every year so it's not like she's struggling!

I don't think this has any relevance on how much you pay towards your child.

OUTOFSYNC

Stench Blossoms wrote: »

I don't think this has any relevance on how much you pay towards your child.

The idea is that both parents have an equivalent standard of living after the split and the child is provided for.

This is rarely the case. It's disgraceful actually.

Stench Blossoms

OUTOFSYNC wrote: »

The idea is that both parents have an equivalent standard of living after the split and the child is provided for.

This is rarely the case. It's disgraceful actually.

The maintenance is for the child, not the parent. The child is being looked after that's all that matters.

It's a bonus that the child gets to go on holidays with the mother etc but how much money the mother makes is irrelevant. It could be the ex's new partner that's paying for the holidays for the child.

Rock77

Stench Blossoms wrote: »

The maintenance is for the child, not the parent. The child is being looked after that's all that matters.

It's a bonus that the child gets to go on holidays with the mother etc but how much money the mother makes is irrelevant. It could be the ex's new partner that's paying for the holidays for the child.

I take your point and I agree, I have to support my child. In your opinion should I be entitled to reduce my payments based on the fact my income is less and my outgoings are higher than when the court order was made?

Rock77

Macker2001 wrote: »

85 euro a week sounds very little to maintain a child. I don't know how they could agree to a decrease. Regarding another child, I would think you should have thought of the expense before having another.

I pay 85, that's half, the child's mother pays the other 85. That's 170 every week.

Big Bag of Chips

You can of course apply to vary it. A judge may well grant it. But go with your facts and figures ready, and do not mention her new partner, or holidays etc.. It's all irrelevant to you.

Have a look at the treoir.ie website, you might find some useful information.

You can also ask to have the access hearing heard on the same day. Is joint custody an option? That way no maintenance would be needed as the child would live with you both an equal share of the time.

Rock77

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

You can of course apply to vary it. A judge may well grant it. But go with your facts and figures ready, and do not mention her new partner, or holidays etc.. It's all irrelevant to you.

Have a look at the treoir.ie website, you might find some useful information.

You can also ask to have the access hearing heard on the same day. Is joint custody an option? That way no maintenance would be needed as the child would live with you both an equal share of the time.

Id love joint custody but I know the ex would not agree.

John_D80

Rock77 wrote: »

Id love joint custody but I know the ex would not agree.

That's no reason not to make the application. You would most likely be shot down on your first attempt if the girls mother was strongly opposed but apply again in 6 months or a year. Ask the judge what needs to happen for him/her to approve your application.

Certainly with the access as it is, at one weekend every fortnight, you would not have much hope. But if you had her a few week nights and could show that you could see after school etc then your application might be looked on more favourably, maybe even by her mum too.

OUTOFSYNC

If it's possible, I would be asking for more time . Float the idea of joint custody with the mother. Be extremely polite and reasonable in emails. Suggest mediation. If she rejects everything it will make you look like reasonable guy in court. You should be looking for one midweek every week to begin with.

Be aware that if the mother turns hostile it can make life worse for your kid in the short term. And the system is biased against you becauseof your gender ( you 're supposed to know your place at the back of the bus) .

But children who have decent access with both loving parents in general are happier as adults.

wmpdd3

OUTOFSYNC wrote: »

The idea is that both parents have an equivalent standard of living after the split and the child is provided for.

This is rarely the case. It's disgraceful actually.

I think you are thinking of a marriage break up.

The only person being maintained here is the child.