Saudi Arabia, a shining beacon of sovereign idiocy

Amirani

This would be somewhat humorous if it was said by the Iona Institute or some other group of crazy people, a sovereign nation not so much: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-declares-all-atheists-are-terrorists-in-new-law-to-crack-down-on-political-dissidents-9228389.html

I suppose it's somewhat useful having a nation around that we can aspire to be the exact opposite of.

Anybody surprised this isn't getting the same sort of condemnation this would if it was some other religious group being labelled as such? Must be the oil.

Bellatori

I particularly liked

"Article one of the new provisions defines terrorism as "calling for atheist thought in any form, or calling into question the fundamentals of the Islamic religion on which this country is based"."

No one takes Scientology seriously. It was manufactured by L Ron Hubbard on the back of dianetics. The world, for some reason takes Islam seriously even though some chap claims to have sat in a cave and been visited by angels. And now, pointing out how absurd the whole thing is has become a crime. However if Saudi Arabia is bad then I would probably be avoiding Brunei...

vibe666

I was in the way back from oz via royal Brunei airlines and they wouldn't even serve booze on the flight.

Lucky for me, of the 40 odd people that were on the almost empty 747, the guy nearest me was Irish and had a bottle of blue label Smirnoff that we finished between us, so it wasn't a bad flight at all in the end! :v

Seems like the place has gotten a feck load worse since then though.

MrPudding

Diego Simeone wrote: »

This would be somewhat humorous if it was said by the Iona Institute or some other group of crazy people, a sovereign nation not so much: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-declares-all-atheists-are-terrorists-in-new-law-to-crack-down-on-political-dissidents-9228389.html

I suppose it's somewhat useful having a nation around that we can aspire to be the exact opposite of.

Anybody surprised this isn't getting the same sort of condemnation this would if it was some other religious group being labelled as such? Must be the oil.

Ha, they do this and then they have the neck to criticise Norway's human rights record...

http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2014/04/saudi-arabia-calls-for-criticism-of-religion-to-be-outlawed-in-norway

It seems that the RCC are not the only religious types for which irony is beyond understanding.

MrP

kylith

Bellatori wrote: »

I particularly liked

"Article one of the new provisions defines terrorism as "calling for atheist thought in any form, or calling into question the fundamentals of the Islamic religion on which this country is based"."

No one takes Scientology seriously. It was manufactured by L Ron Hubbard on the back of dianetics. The world, for some reason takes Islam seriously even though some chap claims to have sat in a cave and been visited by angels. And now, pointing out how absurd the whole thing is has become a crime. However if Saudi Arabia is bad then I would probably be avoiding Brunei...

The difference is that they guy sat in a cave a long time ago. Which is the only difference between a religion and a cult, as far as I can see.

BuilderPlumber

Saudi Arabia is by all means one of the most repressive and negative countries on earth today. Not only does it ruin itself but the whole region. That said and done, Saudi Arabia's voodoo dictatorship did not emerge in a vacuum: it is 100% supported by their patrons in the West.

To call the religion practised in Saudi Arabia and much of the Middle East today Islam is an insult to moderate Muslims past and present and to a time when Islam was a progressive, enlightened, tolerant force (at a time when Catholicism was not). What is practised in Saudi Arabia is tribal voodooism attached to a fascist one-party, singe ideology dictatorship designed to keep an elite rich and most of the people poor. Unfortunately, it was copied by Libya in 1969, Iran in 1979, the Taliban in 1996, etc. ever since but only the latter managed to make it much worse than Saudi Arabia. The presence of Mecca and Medina, Islam's two holiest cities, on its soil mean Saudi can use this as propaganda to say their intolerant version overrides all other Islamic thoughts.

Support for violent, non-tolerant, militant 'Islam' comes from the most unusual sources. Saudi Arabia would not exist only for the West's support of their regime. Likewise, the Iranian copycats were secretly supported by the West in preference to a communist revolution there. Most tellingly of all, the US AND Saudi founded the Mujahedin in Afghanistan and thus al Qaeda and Taliban were born. bin Laden even was a CIA associate!! ALL this was to frighten communists in these countries and to make the USSR afraid too. Many of these came back and became enemies of the West later but we should not forget that the West has been the creator of this monster.

Oil, blind anti-communism, fear of Russia, proxy wars between the US and USSR (Afghanistan), etc. all play a part in the West's obsession with the Middle East. I would think that things would have worked out very different if all this power jostling was not going on.

Sure, there are 1000s of very repressive minor religions on the planet. Saudi Wahabi Islam could have been one of these but for the West's decision to embrace it as a war tool. If they choose scientology in the future, we could have the fascist Scientologic Republic of Wherever.

simplybam

Bellatori wrote: »

The world, for some reason takes Islam seriously even though some chap claims to have sat in a cave and been visited by angels. And now, pointing out how absurd the whole thing is has become a crime.

And immaculate conception and some dude coming back to life after dying on the cross is less absurd?

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

To call the religion practised in Saudi Arabia and much of the Middle East today Islam is an insult to moderate Muslims past and present and to a time when Islam was a progressive, enlightened, tolerant force (at a time when Catholicism was not).

Are you saying that Catholocism is now progressive, enlightened and tolerant? Really!? Seriously!?

Bellatori

simplybam wrote: »

And immaculate conception and some dude coming back to life after dying on the cross is less absurd?

Absolutely not! All religion is, in the end, absurd.

Pherekydes

simplybam wrote: »

And immaculate conception and some dude coming back to life after dying on the cross is less absurd?

Equally absurd, perhaps?

Are you saying that Catholocism is now progressive, enlightened and tolerant? Really!? Seriously!?

Your inference is incorrect.

The poster was referring to a time when " Islam was a progressive, enlightened, tolerant force", not now. Their post doesn't imply anything about now.

Bellatori

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

To call the religion ... Islam is an insult to moderate Muslims past and present...

The problem is that Islam and the Quran make up a code of conduct which is both misogynistic and aggressive. There are over 100 verses in the Quran which promulgate the killing of non-muslims and it is clear that the aim of Islam should be the Islamification of the world. Islam has never given up anything it has taken over.

Let me be clear here. Christianity went through a similar phase of conquest and conversion by the sword. However that was then and this is now and I live NOW.

Where are these 'moderate' Muslims who would , of course, be identified in the Quran.

"There shouldn't be any argument over who the "true Muslim" is because the Quran clearly distinguishes the true Muslim from the pretender in Sura 9 and elsewhere. According to this - one of the last chapters of the Quran - the true believer "strives and fights with their wealth and persons" while the hypocrites are those who "sit at home," refusing to join the jihad against unbelievers in foreign lands."

Cabaal

Am I the only one that keeps reading this thread title as:

Saudi Arabia, a shining bacon of sovereign idiocy

?

vibe666

Just read this about our old mate the sultan.

Should that be filed under "people in glass houses"?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/06/how-the-sultan-of-brunei-violated-his-sharia-law-with-me.html

Bellatori

vibe666 wrote: »

Just read this about our old mate the sultan.

Should that be filed under "people in glass houses"?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/06/how-the-sultan-of-brunei-violated-his-sharia-law-with-me.html

You have to be very religious to be seriously hypocritical

Sexual harassment

Drunk driving

It also helps if you are rich and Saudi...

Frank Lee Midere

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Saudi Arabia is by all means one of the most repressive and negative countries on earth today. Not only does it ruin itself but the whole region. That said and done, Saudi Arabia's voodoo dictatorship did not emerge in a vacuum: it is 100% supported by their patrons in the West.

To call the religion practised in Saudi Arabia and much of the Middle East today Islam is an insult to moderate Muslims past and present and to a time when Islam was a progressive, enlightened, tolerant force (at a time when Catholicism was not). What is practised in Saudi Arabia is tribal voodooism attached to a fascist one-party, singe ideology dictatorship designed to keep an elite rich and most of the people poor. Unfortunately, it was copied by Libya in 1969, Iran in 1979, the Taliban in 1996, etc. ever since but only the latter managed to make it much worse than Saudi Arabia. The presence of Mecca and Medina, Islam's two holiest cities, on its soil mean Saudi can use this as propaganda to say their intolerant version overrides all other Islamic thoughts.

Support for violent, non-tolerant, militant 'Islam' comes from the most unusual sources. Saudi Arabia would not exist only for the West's support of their regime. Likewise, the Iranian copycats were secretly supported by the West in preference to a communist revolution there. Most tellingly of all, the US AND Saudi founded the Mujahedin in Afghanistan and thus al Qaeda and Taliban were born. bin Laden even was a CIA associate!! ALL this was to frighten communists in these countries and to make the USSR afraid too. Many of these came back and became enemies of the West later but we should not forget that the West has been the creator of this monster.

Oil, blind anti-communism, fear of Russia, proxy wars between the US and USSR (Afghanistan), etc. all play a part in the West's obsession with the Middle East. I would think that things would have worked out very different if all this power jostling was not going on.

Sure, there are 1000s of very repressive minor religions on the planet. Saudi Wahabi Islam could have been one of these but for the West's decision to embrace it as a war tool. If they choose scientology in the future, we could have the fascist Scientologic Republic of Wherever.

TL/DR. West bad. West cause Islamism. Hulk angry.

Nodin

vibe666 wrote: »

Just read this about our old mate the sultan.

Should that be filed under "people in glass houses"?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/06/how-the-sultan-of-brunei-violated-his-sharia-law-with-me.html

Much like the Saudi Elite, he believes that Sharia is good for people. Not his kind of people, but the others.

Nodin

Diego Simeone wrote: »

.......

Anybody surprised this isn't getting the same sort of condemnation this would if it was some other religious group being labelled as such? Must be the oil.

It was mentioned in a few places, a month ago when the article came out.

BuilderPlumber

vibe666 wrote: »

I was in the way back from oz via royal Brunei airlines and they wouldn't even serve booze on the flight.

Lucky for me, of the 40 odd people that were on the almost empty 747, the guy nearest me was Irish and had a bottle of blue label Smirnoff that we finished between us, so it wasn't a bad flight at all in the end! :v

Seems like the place has gotten a feck load worse since then though.

Brunei is another example of a place ruled by a dictator who happens to be one of the richest men in the world who bans alcohol for his own people (and who I'm sure is a drinker of wine and cognac no one bar him and Kim Jong Il could afford: with the latter gone, he may have it to himself!) and implements all other kinds of repression in the name of religion. Do these thickos ever understand that it is a sin in Islam (and even in primitive tribal voodoo!) to hurt people and make them upset via religion.

BuilderPlumber

simplybam wrote: »

And immaculate conception and some dude coming back to life after dying on the cross is less absurd?

Are you saying that Catholocism is now progressive, enlightened and tolerant? Really!? Seriously!?

Of course, Catholicism is not progressive or enlightened. It just does not have the grip it used to have. Because countries ditched its grip.

BuilderPlumber

Bellatori wrote: »

The problem is that Islam and the Quran make up a code of conduct which is both misogynistic and aggressive. There are over 100 verses in the Quran which promulgate the killing of non-muslims and it is clear that the aim of Islam should be the Islamification of the world. Islam has never given up anything it has taken over.

Let me be clear here. Christianity went through a similar phase of conquest and conversion by the sword. However that was then and this is now and I live NOW.

Where are these 'moderate' Muslims who would , of course, be identified in the Quran.

"There shouldn't be any argument over who the "true Muslim" is because the Quran clearly distinguishes the true Muslim from the pretender in Sura 9 and elsewhere. According to this - one of the last chapters of the Quran - the true believer "strives and fights with their wealth and persons" while the hypocrites are those who "sit at home," refusing to join the jihad against unbelievers in foreign lands."

The problem with the Koran and Bible too is there is indeed a lot of both good and evil chapters/verses in there. Neither is perfect and a lot of it we don't even know when it was written or rewritten for later, selfish purposes of others. I also believe whole parts of these books were left out to suit the needs of dictators throughout history. For example, the gospel of Mary Magdalene.

These books were a product of their times and are essentially about rebels who are fighting a cause. If Jesus and Mohammed were Irish, we'd be singing about them in some old IRA song!

But that's just it! Fianna Fail, Sinn Fein, IRA and other struggles as well as hurling and football have taken on religious status here. No different to the cults of Jesus and Mohammed and Moses and other revolutionaries!

BUT make no mistake about it: the current Taliban-style 'Islam' owes a lot more to recent dictators like Hitler, Stalin and especially the Khmer Rouge than it does to the Koran. A lot of the founders of the Taliban had no religious grounding whatsoever and could not read or write.

Yes, all religion considers the conversion of others to their own, the one true church, as their duty. Christianity in all its forms and breakaways from it inclusive of Islam has been especially overzealous here. Islam was the first protestantism you could say and their argument was Jesus was an important prophet and not son of god. There is a mission to 'get there first' and Catholics, Muslims and Protestants all more or less set out to conquer as much as the world as possible and NONE gave up what they conquered. Even those who are atheist in the Christian and Muslim worlds will unconsciously side with 'their tribe's faith' when the chips are down!!

Islam did conquer violently sometimes, peacefully other times all the Arab lands, Persia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, a lot of India, a huge swath of Africa, Turkey, a portion of Eastern Europe, a good deal of the far East and even pockets of South America down the years. However, militant Catholicism was it match and forced Muslims to abandon Spain and Portugal. Militant Catholicism waged a far worse campaign of violence than even today's al Qaeda would for many reasons mainly because they are more powerful and united. Women lived in fear, kings quaked when the popes of the day beckoned them, native civilisations in the Americas were decimated.

To this day, we have this clash of civilisations not only Christian v Muslim, but Catholic v Protestant, Atheist v Religious, Hindu v Muslim, Communist v Capitalist, and so on. Every side thinks it is 100% right and those who do not believe are subhuman. We see it all the time everywhere.

BuilderPlumber

Another thing I notice is that oil producing countries can get away with a lot of bad behaviour as long as they play a role for the superpowers. Saudi Arabia does awful things to its own people in the name of religion and have an arrogant attitude where not only Islam but their form of it is considered the only official religion. Bar North Korea, I don't think there is any state that has such poor religious tolerance as Saudi Arabia.

But, they can get away with it because they know the West and the whole world needs their oil. So, as long as they are playing their role, no one cares about human rights. The best thing that could happen would be something like this:

1. The rest of the world finds an alternative source to oil from countries like Saudi Arabia.
2. The world then tells such countries that unless they change their abusive laws, they won't buy their oil.

Then, you'd see how quickly they would change!!

Nodin

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Another thing I notice is that oil producing countries can get away with a lot of bad behaviour as long as they play a role for the superpowers. Saudi Arabia does awful things to its own people in the name of religion and have an arrogant attitude where not only Islam but their form of it is considered the only official religion. Bar North Korea, I don't think there is any state that has such poor religious tolerance as Saudi Arabia.

But, they can get away with it because they know the West and the whole world needs their oil. So, as long as they are playing their role, no one cares about human rights. The best thing that could happen would be something like this:

1. The rest of the world finds an alternative source to oil from countries like Saudi Arabia.
2. The world then tells such countries that unless they change their abusive laws, they won't buy their oil.

Then, you'd see how quickly they would change!!

It's a question of alliances. Pro-democracy people in the "orange revolution" in Ukraine found support of all sorts from the US and EU. Pro-Democracy movements in Azerbaijan were simultaneously ignored, because their corrupt government is "pro-western" in outlook.

Brian Shanahan

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Of course, Catholicism is not progressive or enlightened. It just does not have the grip it used to have. Because countries ditched its grip.

I can just see the kiddies' toy range now:

Pope Francis: No longer with Jesus-fu Ninja grip!

recedite

The Saudi kingpin seems to be holding his own daughters under some sort of house arrest, mainly AFAIK, for being girls.

http://www.channel4.com/news/saudi-arabia-king-abdullah-alanoud-al-fayez-daughters-jeddah

Apart from that oil, he also holds the magic meteorite of Islam.
All of which kinda makes him infallible in the eyes of many, even if he is a dick.

Hotblack Desiato

2001: An Islamic Odyssey

old_aussie

Cabaal wrote: »

Am I the only one that keeps reading this thread title as:

Saudi Arabia, a shining bacon of sovereign idiocy

?

Ah, you found the snackbar

BuilderPlumber

recedite wrote: »

The Saudi kingpin seems to be holding his own daughters under some sort of house arrest, mainly AFAIK, for being girls.

http://www.channel4.com/news/saudi-arabia-king-abdullah-alanoud-al-fayez-daughters-jeddah

Apart from that oil, he also holds the magic meteorite of Islam.
All of which kinda makes him infallible in the eyes of many, even if he is a dick.

Precisely. Saudi Arabia is an oil rich dictatorship with Islam's 2 holiest cities on its soil. This gives them carte blanche to promote their fascist ideology (inclusive of inspiring al Qaeda, Taliban, al Shabaab and Boko Haram style terrorists) around the world.

MrPudding

ninja900 wrote: »

2001: An Islamic Odyssey

More like 401... No?

MrP