Question about White Walkers and Wights *CONTAINS BOOK SPOILERS*

Paddy Cow

I know that Coldhands cannot cross the wall. Is this the same for white walkers and wights?

Washington Irving

Wights must be able to, given those two that attacked Mormont and were killed by Jon.

I believe the Others/White Walkers, like Coldhands, are prevented from passing due to the magic used in the construction of the Wall.

Paddy Cow

Thanks.

Another thing which has puzzled me is how the white walkers manage to raise wights. Do the white walkers have to touch them and can the white walkers dictate when the wights will turn? When Jon and co brought back the two dead watchmen, it was noted that they had been dead for some time but there was no smell of rot. It was pretty convenient that your man turned at Castle Black and not out beyond the Wall.

In contrast to this, in the opening scene of AGOT's, when the rangers came across the camp of wights, the ranger who ran ended up being chased by another ranger who had turned into a wight. That's a very small time frame.

I'm confused. Anyone got any theories?

Witcher

The wights that attacked Mormont didn't cross under their own power though, they were brought through by the NW which may have had something to do with them being able to cross.

Coldhands is the living dead but probably not a wight since his eyes aren't blue but he can't cross it.

If BR has raised him and wights are the dead raised by the Others, I think it's reasonable to expect that wights can't cross either unless they're lying dormant like Jafer Flowers etc. and are carried through.

Witcher

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Thanks.

Another thing which has puzzled me is how the white walkers manage to raise wights. Do the white walkers have to touch them and can the white walkers dictate when the wights will turn? When Jon and co brought back the two dead watchmen, it was noted that they had been dead for some time but there was no smell of rot. It was pretty convenient that your man turned at Castle Black and not out beyond the Wall.

In contrast to this, in the opening scene of AGOT's, when the rangers came across the camp of wights, the ranger who ran ended up being chased by another ranger who had turned into a wight. That's a very small time frame.

I'm confused. Anyone got any theories?

They can obviously lie dormant for a period of time, Bran gets attacked by wights outside BR's cave that are pretty much buried in snow but are awoken by movement.

You must have to die beyond the Wall for the Others to raise you as one, in ADWD Jon leaves corpses in the ice cells but they don't reanimate.

Paddy Cow

Blay wrote: »

They can obviously lie dormant for a period of time, Bran gets attacked by wights outside BR's cave that are pretty much buried in snow but are awoken by movement.

That I can accept but what is the dormancy time and why is it so inconsistent? Liked I asked, was it just coincidence that the rangers reanimated when they were inside Castle Black or did the White Walkers have any doing in it?

Blay wrote: »

You must have to die beyond the Wall for the Others to raise you as one, in ADWD Jon leaves corpses in the ice cells but they don't reanimate.

Was that because you have to die beyond the wall, or there were simply no white walkers who could have turned them?

It goes back to my original question. How do the white walkers turn dead people into wights? Do they have to touch them or is their presence enough?

We saw how they turn living people (well babies) into ww's. They touch them and as far as we know, the living person instantly turns but it's not clear (or maybe I missed it in the books) on how exactly ww's turn dead people into wights.

The ww's would have a very good advantage if they had the power to dictate when a dead body would reanimate and this power transcended the wall.

Witcher

Paddy Cow wrote: »

That I can accept but what is the dormancy time and why is it so inconsistent? Liked I asked, was it just coincidence that the rangers reanimated when they were inside Castle Black or did the White Walkers have any doing in it?


Was that because you have to die beyond the wall, or there were simply no white walkers who could have turned them?

It goes back to my original question. How do the white walkers turn dead people into wights? Do they have to touch them or is their presence enough?

We saw how they turn living people (well babies) into ww's. They touch them and as far as we know, the living person instantly turns but it's not clear (or maybe I missed it in the books) on how exactly ww's turn dead people into wights.

The ww's would have a very good advantage if they had the power to dictate when a dead body would reanimate and this power transcended the wall.

We don't know how their period of dormancy works really. The Others obviously have some sort of control over it, Jafer Flowers etc. seemed to be a Trojan Horse in that they stayed dormant until they went through the Wall and didn't immediately attack Jon etc. when they were found.

I would say they didn't reanimate because the Wall blocks whatever method the Others use to do it. If you died south of the Wall and they dumped you north of it then you would probably still be able to be wighted.

When they turned Waymer Royce in the prologue of AGoT I don't know if they touched him, Will sees them cut him repeatedly but then closes his eyes and then they're gone. It's not an immediate thing because the moon is only just beginning to rise before the fight and when he opens his eyes after it seems to be high in the sky so he was in the tree for a good bit before he went down.

In ASoS Small Paul is stabbed by an Other and touches it but Paul only dies just after Sam stabs it with the dragonglass dagger.

He turns up later as a wight but its unclear if even being touched before you die will turn you or if a second Other came along to do it when the rest left. It's possible that they can wight someone even without coming into contact with them as the Wildlings burn their dead straight away to stop it happening.

Tormund mentions that his son died and then turned but never mentions seeing an Other there. They can probably do it just by seeing the corpse from a distance.

Washington Irving

Blay wrote: »

We don't know how their period of dormancy works really. The Others obviously have some sort of control over it, Jafer Flowers etc. seemed to be a Trojan Horse in that they stayed dormant until they went through the Wall and didn't immediately attack Jon etc. when they were found.

I would say they didn't reanimate because the Wall blocks whatever method the Others use to do it. If you died south of the Wall and they dumped you north of it then you would probably still be able to be wighted.

There's also the point that the wights seemed to know where Mormont would be, which raises the question about them possibly retaining memories from their life, however vague (perhaps comparable to Lady Stoneheart), or a least having some sort of sentience separate from being controlled by Others/WW.

As you say, the Wall would block the Others' methods of controlling wights which narrows possible explanations.

Paddy Cow

Blay wrote: »

We don't know how their period of dormancy works really. The Others obviously have some sort of control over it, Jafer Flowers etc. seemed to be a Trojan Horse in that they stayed dormant until they went through the Wall and didn't immediately attack Jon etc. when they were found.....

That's what bothers/confuses me. Are they like zombies from the Walking Dead where it can take anything from hours to being almost instantaneous or can the WW's control the change? I don't think it was made clear in the books.

I remember Asha refused to go north of the wall and she told the story of how her husband turned into a wight and she only managed to get away by burning him and her house down. She talked about the cold but she never mentioned (to the best of my knowledge) any ww's being present.

Liam O

Paddy Cow wrote: »

That's what bothers/confuses me. Are they like zombies from the Walking Dead where it can take anything from hours to being almost instantaneous or can the WW's control the change? I don't think it was made clear in the books.

I remember Asha refused to go north of the wall and she told the story of how her husband turned into a wight and she only managed to get away by burning him and her house down. She talked about the cold but she never mentioned (to the best of my knowledge) any ww's being present.

Osha you mean

I'd say in relation to how fast they turn it's simply what suits the narrative at the time tbh...

lynski

I thought that people turned into wights north of the wall anyway, regardless of how they died, but if there were ww nearby they could be 'enthralled' into their service.
perhaps the dormancy is tied to activity nearby.
I assumed that the bodies in the icecells were not reanimated because the wall magic kept them that way.
That is why the free people burn the dead.
the wall and the oath of the watch must have some magic to prevent that from happening further south, as they do not seem to practice magic explicitly.
Maybe this is the real reason the wall was built, not to keep the white walkers out, but to stop the re-animation action?

Paddy Cow

lynski wrote: »

I thought that people turned into wights north of the wall anyway, regardless of how they died, but if there were ww nearby they could be 'enthralled' into their service.
perhaps the dormancy is tied to activity nearby.
I assumed that the bodies in the icecells were not reanimated because the wall magic kept them that way.
That is why the free people burn the dead.
the wall and the oath of the watch must have some magic to prevent that from happening further south, as they do not seem to practice magic explicitly.
Maybe this is the real reason the wall was built, not to keep the white walkers out, but to stop the re-animation action?

The wight that attacked Jeor Mormont turned south of the wall.

lynski

Paddy Cow wrote: »

The wight that attacked Jeor Mormont turned south of the wall.

re-read time:
No they were not, they were rangers with Benjen and were found north of the wall. They believed that they were the last of the crew, where and when they were killed was not established. Their bodies had changed but not rotted as expected, there was no blood at the scene so not there. Eyes were blue, but they were dormant, how or why they reanimated is not obvious and it is not obvious that they targeted the lord commander. Only one of them got into his room btw.

Sulla Felix

lynski wrote: »

re-read time:
No they were not, they were rangers with Benjen and were found north of the wall. They believed that they were the last of the crew, where and when they were killed was not established. Their bodies had changed but not rotted as expected, there was no blood at the scene so not there. Eyes were blue, but they were dormant, how or why they reanimated is not obvious and it is not obvious that they targeted the lord commander. Only one of them got into his room btw.

Were they not being kept in the quartermasters cold store til the morning until Aemon could get a look at them? My understanding of that scene that they were definitely aimed at Mormont.

lynski

maybe, but i re-read last night and it is not clear that they targeted mormont, only one got to his chamber and he killed on the way up there, the other went in another direction and killed that way too.

Mickeroo

Thought it was an assassination attempt myself. Too much of a coincidence for an aimlessly wandering zombie to end up at the lord commander's quarters without attacking anyone along the way.

Sulla Felix

Mickeroo wrote: »

Thought it was an assassination attempt myself. Too much of a coincidence for an aimlessly wandering zombie to end up at the lord commander's quarters without attacking anyone along the way.

He did kill along the way though. Didn't Jon find a brother dead outside his door?

Mickeroo

lynski wrote: »

maybe, but i re-read last night and it is not clear that they targeted mormont, only one got to his chamber and he killed on the way up there, the other went in another direction and killed that way too.

ah hadn't realised that, been a while since I read the book. maybe it wasn't targeted then, though I still think it ending up in the Lord Commander's quarters is a bit too convenient.

lynski

He did kill on the way. I re-read the chapter last night and it is not indicated in any way that it was directed, perhaps it is intimated later in the book, but not in the chapter I read. They were in the same tower as mormont and killed the guard it is not like they were in the dungeons and wondered up until they found the right door

lynski

having fun doing little scene re-reads though. going to find ol nans story's about the walkers this week.

Mickeroo

I think the scene at the end of season 2 that showed the wight "army" marching suggested the Walkers have some degree of control over them too though I can't remember stuff in the book that suggested it apart from the attack on mormont. Must have a few re-reads myself.

Sulla Felix

lynski wrote: »

He did kill on the way. I re-read the chapter last night and it is not indicated in any way that it was directed, perhaps it is intimated later in the book, but not in the chapter I read. They were in the same tower as mormont and killed the guard it is not like they were in the dungeons and wondered up until they found the right door

Ahh, I thought they were kept in a different building.

RobbingBandit

Wights need snow(not Jon, Snow as in cold) to function, the further north you go the colder it gets but with the onset of Winter the cold is coming south so the wights are being seen further south.

lynski

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Wights need snow(not Jon, Snow as in cold) to function, the further north you go the colder it gets but with the onset of Winter the cold is coming south so the wights are being seen further south.

but not south of the wall though?

RobbingBandit

I think so soon as Winter has now spread south of the wall, it is not the wall that prevented them from coming it was the weather/climate. Link here describes how The Others overran most of Westeros turning people and animals into wights, they need cold and snow to exist which comes with Winter, when Winter spreads south so do The Others.

http://iceandfire.wikia.com/wiki/Others

Witcher

RobbingBandit wrote: »

I think so soon as Winter has now spread south of the wall, it is not the wall that prevented them from coming it was the weather/climate. Link here describes how The Others overran most of Westeros turning people and animals into wights, they need cold and snow to exist which comes with Winter, when Winter spreads south so do The Others.

http://iceandfire.wikia.com/wiki/Others

You do know that it has been winter many times in Westeros since the Wall was built but they never crossed it?

RobbingBandit

The Wall has fallen to ruin in many spots and is no longer manned at those points, Jon Snow and King Stannis were in the middle of sending regiments to several of these unmanned spots who knows how the story will unfold in The Winds of Winter, I am guessing with a title like that though there will be Others and Wights south of The Wall soon enough as the enchantments will fail if this is the long winter/Endless Night.

Paddy Cow

RobbingBandit wrote: »

I think so soon as Winter has now spread south of the wall, it is not the wall that prevented them from coming it was the weather/climate. Link here describes how The Others overran most of Westeros turning people and animals into wights, they need cold and snow to exist which comes with Winter, when Winter spreads south so do The Others.

http://iceandfire.wikia.com/wiki/Others

I thought it was unclear if extreme cold brings the others, or the others bring extreme cold with them.

lynski

So the wights happen anyway, may have some intelligence or purpose but it is not clear. The WW can make wights and can thrall them. The WW cannot cross the wall as the children put spells in it, but the wights can. It is not clear if the bring dark and cold with them or they come when it is dark and cold.
Still no explanation on dormancy or purpose.

Paddy Cow

lynski wrote: »

So the wights happen anyway, may have some intelligence or purpose but it is not clear. The WW can make wights and can thrall them. The WW cannot cross the wall as the children put spells in it, but the wights can. It is not clear if the bring dark and cold with them or they come when it is dark and cold.
Still no explanation on dormancy or purpose.

So we've figured out that we're still as clueless as ever lol :pac: