Starting to read Joyce...where to start?

beauty101

I'm in first year of an English degree and as I have some time off over Christmas I'd like to give myself a head-start and start some Joyce.

I've never read Joyce before and I don't plan on throwing myself into Ulysses straightaway, I'd like to "ease myself in"...any recommendations?

Mr Pseudonym

He wasn't exactly the most prolific. I suppose, start with Dubliners. Then A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. Once you've read PoA, reread it in conjunction with Stephen Hero. Occasional, Critical, and Political Writing is a collection of reviews and essays he wrote (needless to say, compiled and published after his death). I would venture that they wouldn't be especially helpful in understanding his work, but good to reference in essays. If you wanna get your geek on, read some of Chamber Music - his collection of poetry.

And, finally, if you want to feel bad about yourself, read this. He wrote it while at Belvedere, and was no older than sixteen at the time.

LOTD

I'd go for Dubliners, my favourite book.

Mardy Bum

Mr. Pseudonym has given a good list. Exiles is the name of the only play he wrote. It is an interesting read. Leave Finnegans Wake till last.
If you want to read around him start with Ibsen. He learned Danish just to read Ibsen.

Harry Angstrom

If you want to start on Ulysses, read "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" first; then you can head straight to Ulysses. If you want read Dubliners, leave it until later, although it does give a very well-rounded view of Joyce's writings.
Exiles is basically an autobiographical play which Joyce tried to destroy. His poetry is mediocre, apart from Ecce Puer. Avoid Finnegan's Wake. It's unreadable, unless you read it out loud, but your next-door neighbour will think you've gone doo-lally.

Mr Pseudonym

"Leave Finnegan's Wake till last"!!

I would echo (echo echo) what Harry Angstrom said about Finnegan's Wake being impenetrable unless read aloud. I wish I could remember more details of this anecdote, but a friend of Joyce's, who was helping him translate FW into Italian, was amazed by how unconcerned Joyce was with translating the meaning - it was all about the sound.

A tip for when you finally make it to Ulysses: I read ALL of The Odyssey (which Ulysses parallels (Ulysses is the Latin for Odysseus)) in preparation for reading Ulysses. It was a complete waste! Try to get through it once, without too much concern as to the number of references and allusions you're missing (there'll be hundreds!!), because it becomes so much more manageable with each rereading.

One more idea: bring a copy of the book to Joyce Tower in Sandycove, and read the first episode there.

ush

beauty101 wrote: »

I'm in first year of an English degree and as I have some time off over Christmas I'd like to give myself a head-start and start some Joyce.

I've never read Joyce before and I don't plan on throwing myself into Ulysses straightaway, I'd like to "ease myself in"...any recommendations?

You've started an English degree and you haven't read Joyce yet! :P

Dubliners or Portrait.

Read them for pleasure. Don't see it as a head start. No competition. Read them for the richness.

I'm kind of jealous though. You're entering a whole new view of the people, everyday life and the world. Its a great journey to have ahead of you.

Mr Pseudonym

ush wrote: »

You've started an English degree and you haven't read Joyce yet! :P

I think it was Wilde who said, “Don’t hate the playa’; hate the game…”

When you have a Leaving Cert course that is only fifty percent literature, that almost demands that Shakespeare be taken as the main text, and that only has A Portrait as an option for the woeful Comparative Study, it’s not entirely unexpected!

echo beach

Leaving Cert students are allowed to read stuff that ISN'T on the course. I know the work is demanding and takes a lot of time but I would expect anybody doing an English degree to have read a lot, although they might not have got around to Joyce.

beauty101

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I think it was Wilde who said, “Don’t hate the playa’; hate the game…”

When you have a Leaving Cert course that is only fifty percent literature, that almost demands that Shakespeare be taken as the main text, and that only has A Portrait as an option for the woeful Comparative Study, it’s not entirely unexpected!

echo beach wrote: »

Leaving Cert students are allowed to read stuff that ISN'T on the course. I know the work is demanding and takes a lot of time but I would expect anybody doing an English degree to have read a lot, although they might not have got around to Joyce.

I did my Leaving Cert a LONG time ago! "First year" English is a bit deceptive. Hadn't got around to reading Joyce yet but as Echo Beach says I have read a heck of a lot!

ThirdMan

echo beach wrote: »

Leaving Cert students are allowed to read stuff that ISN'T on the course. I know the work is demanding and takes a lot of time but I would expect anybody doing an English degree to have read a lot

:rolleyes:

I'm studying law because I thought it would be interesting. Perhaps the OP chose English for similar reasons.

StewartGriffin

beauty101 wrote: »

I'm in first year of an English degree and as I have some time off over Christmas I'd like to give myself a head-start and start some Joyce.

I've never read Joyce before and I don't plan on throwing myself into Ulysses straightaway, I'd like to "ease myself in"...any recommendations?

It is my humble opinion that Joyce was full of shoight.
I recommend the course of action highlighted above.

HeadPig

StewartGriffin wrote: »

It is my humble opinion that Joyce was full of shoight.
I recommend the course of action highlighted above.

What parts of Ulysses did you think were poor?

StewartGriffin

HeadPig wrote: »

What parts of Ulysses did you think were poor?

I felt it began badly, and went downhill from there.

Mr Pseudonym

StewartGriffin wrote: »

I felt it began badly, and went downhill from there.

Have you thought about submitting your criticism to TLS?

HeadPig

StewartGriffin wrote: »

I felt it began badly, and went downhill from there.

Thanks for the in-depth response. You are clearly well-educated on the issue.

StewartGriffin

HeadPig wrote: »

Thanks for the in-depth response. You are clearly well-educated on the issue.

Please allow me to offer a sincere and heartfelt apology to you sir for the berevity of my previous response to your most pertinent and penetrating question regarding the merits of James Joyce's much overrated example of over worded windbaggery which is Ulysses. You are clearly very well educated on the issue. I will spend the next four days composing a more fitting and appropriate response to your post "What parts of Ulysses did you think were poor?"

Mardy Bum

StewartGriffin wrote: »

Please allow me to offer a sincere and heartfelt apology to you sir for the berevity of my previous response to your most pertinent and penetrating question regarding the merits of James Joyce's much overrated example of over worded windbaggery which is Ulysses. You are clearly very well educated on the issue. I will spend the next four days composing a more fitting and appropriate response to your post "What parts of Ulysses did you think were poor?"

Saying Ulysses is badly written is like saying the Wire is not a good tv show, you can say it but don't be expected to be taken seriously after you say it.
You can obviously say you didn't much like it which is fair enough (It is a struggle and I prefer Portrait) but to dismiss its literary merit outright is very questionable.

StewartGriffin

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Saying Ulysses is badly written is like saying the Wire is not a good tv show, you can say it but don't be expected to be taken seriously after you say it.
You can obviously say you didn't much like it which is fair enough (It is a struggle and I prefer Portrait) but to dismiss its literary merit outright is very questionable.

Firstly, who used the words "badly written"? It is well written, but so is the telephone directory. A shopping centre may be very well built but still an extraordinarily ugly building. Secondly, to say someone should not expect be taken seriously for voicing a criticism, of Ulysses or any other work, might be called literary snobbery.

Mardy Bum

StewartGriffin wrote: »

Firstly, who used the words "badly written"? It is well written, but so is the telephone directory. A shopping centre may be very well built but still an extraordinarily ugly building. Secondly, to say someone should not expect be taken seriously for voicing a criticism, of Ulysses or any other work, might be called literary snobbery.

I felt it began badly, and went downhill from there.

This trite post is very ambiguous and when asked to give further reasoning you did not.

Critique and criticism of Ulysses is fine. Indeed there is a whole groups of academics who have devoted their lives to this task and some who have spent an ordinate amount of time critiquing the very first sentence, "Stately, plump..." The specific criticism you voiced lacks any substance therefore it does not have to be taken seriously.

Your comparisons are not really relevant. When talking about literature any book that is described as well written is celebrated. Art/literature is all about form. As Wilde said "The real artist is he who proceeds not from feeling to form, but from form to thought and passion". Joyce cared more about form than subject matter like Wilde. His fixation reached its peak with Finnegans Wake.

StewartGriffin

Mardy Bum wrote: »

This trite post is very ambiguous and when asked to give further reasoning you did not.

Critique and criticism of Ulysses is fine. Indeed there is a whole groups of academics who have devoted their lives to this task and some who have spent an ordinate amount of time critiquing the very first sentence, "Stately, plump..." The specific criticism you voiced lacks any substance therefore it does not have to be taken seriously.

Your comparisons are not really relevant. When talking about literature any book that is described as well written is celebrated. Art/literature is all about form. As Wilde said "The real artist is he who proceeds not from feeling to form, but from form to thought and passion". Joyce cared more about form than subject matter like Wilde. His fixation reached its peak with Finnegans Wake.

The substance of a novel, literary critique, or indeed any work or idea, is not in any way related to the volume or weight of its delivery.

You would have every practitioner of Zen scratching their bald heads with your bloated logic. A single short comment can cut straight to the heart of any matter if it is sharp enough.

Mardy Bum

StewartGriffin wrote: »

The substance of a novel, literary critique, or indeed any work or idea, is not in any way related to the volume or weight of its delivery.

You would have every practitioner of Zen scratching their bald heads with your bloated logic. A single short comment can cut straight to the heart of any matter if it is sharp enough.

If you make a point about something in literature, science, politics or any sphere, especially a very controversial point, you are expected to give some evidence for your points if you want to be taken seriously. The Junior Certificate teaches you that even.

I could say "Shakespeare was not a very good writer".
The sentence has nothing backing it up therefore it is fatuous and ill thought.

HeadPig

StewartGriffin wrote: »

Please allow me to offer a sincere and heartfelt apology to you sir for the berevity of my previous response to your most pertinent and penetrating question regarding the merits of James Joyce's much overrated example of over worded windbaggery which is Ulysses. You are clearly very well educated on the issue. I will spend the next four days composing a more fitting and appropriate response to your post "What parts of Ulysses did you think were poor?"

The word is "brevity". You have showed your ignorance, and failed to substantiate your claim. You are now blocked and I won't be entertaining you with responses any more.

To the OP, I would recommend Dubliners first and then Portrait. It's been 2 weeks since the thread started so I would be interested to know how things are going.

StewartGriffin

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I could say "Shakespeare was not a very good writer".
The sentence has nothing backing it up therefore it is fatuous and ill thought.

Utter nonsense. It's a totally valid statement to make if somebody wants to state it. And whether they want to add further to it or not is up to them. Saying they are not to be taken seriously is just snobbish waffle. By your logic anyone who utters anything other than a flatulent monologue is making "fatuous and ill thought" points.

We do not all speak like a Junior certificate answer, nor, believe it or not, do we all aspire to.

Joyce is always linked with Education, only because so few will ever read him for pleasure alone.

StewartGriffin

HeadPig wrote: »

The word is "brevity". You have showed your ignorance, and failed to substantiate your claim.

Oh, man, you got me. Boy is my face red!:o:o:o

How dumb am I? :o A spelling error. :eek::eek:

Thanks HeadPig. Please don't block me. Please take me seriously. I can learn.

Mardy Bum

StewartGriffin wrote: »

Utter nonsense. It's a totally valid statement to make if somebody wants to state it. And whether they want to add further to it or not is up to them. Saying they are not to be taken seriously is just snobbish waffle. By your logic anyone who utters anything other than a flatulent monologue is making "fatuous and ill thought" points.

We do not all speak like a Junior certificate answer, nor, believe it or not, do we all aspire to.

Joyce is always linked with Education, only because so few will ever read him for pleasure alone.

Joyce is linked to education because he was one of the greatest writers ever and there is a huge amount still to be learned from his writings.

Astounding claims need astounding evidence or so the line goes.

ush

StewartGriffin wrote: »

It is my humble opinion that Joyce was full of shoight.

We all are. But in Joyce's case it was great shoite.

Harry Angstrom

Joyce would probably have a word for all of this. Something along the lines of "Phfarrrrrrrttt".