Possession of possible substantial Irish artifact

Corholio

A friend recently came into possession of an Irish artifact, a cross, that he has since learnt may be of some considerable value. This observation was because of secondary people familiar with the area commenting on the cross itself, and hasn't been valued or seen by any expert specifically. They commented that they think it could be of some importance historically.

I am wondering has anyone ever dealt with Irish museums in regards to this, the reason I ask is that it has a sticker that seems to suggest it was on loan from a museum at some point in time, though we don't think anytime in the recent past.

Anyone ever had a similar situation to this? Where would be a good place to take it? I appreciate any advice anyone could give.

pedroeibar1

Take a photo of it and its sticker and send them to the National Museum. It sounds a bit strange - sticker that seems to suggest it was on loan from a museum at some point in time - quite possibly your friend is leaving him/herself open to a charge of receiving stolen goods if they just leave it in their garage.

gobnaitolunacy

If it was in some museum's collection....generally speaking they don't tend to 'give away' or sell something like that to the general public.

If it was, say early Christian, then I would think if the National Museum would definitely have to be informed. Anything later than Medieval I don't think they would be as interested.

Best to 'fess up all the same.

Seanchai

Corholio wrote: »

A friend recently came into possession of an Irish artifact, a cross

Not that cross in Tipperary? Artefacts stolen from Thurles abbey

Corholio

Yes the National Museum was definitely the first thing that came to mind. The people who saw it said it could be between 7-11th century. I'll admit I am a complete novice to the dating of things so I've no idea what era's they would be.

Of course it would not be a case of holding onto stolen goods if that was the case, it would be handed back. However, my friend wants to know as much as possible about the process before he does anything either, especially when it comes to the topic of ownership of the item.

Corholio

Seanchai wrote: »

Not that cross in Tipperary? Artefacts stolen from Thurles abbey

No definitely not that lol. In the way it's presented, I doubt very much it was stolen, or at least not stolen anytime in the recent past. However, we know little about the item so we can't rule it out.

Seanchai

Corholio wrote: »

No definitely not that lol. In the way it's presented, I doubt very much it was stolen, or at least not stolen anytime in the recent past. However, we know little about the item so we can't rule it out.

Pat Wallace in the National Museum is the man to talk to. Well, I think he retired as Director in the past year. He's an extremely erudite man, but very passionate about protecting Irish artefacts from being out of public ownership. Now that he's retired he might be able to drop around to you.

Museum boss felt 'ambushed' into taking retirement

Corholio

Seanchai wrote: »

Pat Wallace in the National Museum is the man to talk to. Well, I think he retired as Director in the past year. He's an extremely erudite man, but very passionate about protecting Irish artefacts from being out of public ownership. Now that he's retired he might be able to drop around to you.

Museum boss felt 'ambushed' into taking retirement

Thanks a lot, will look him up.

Judgement Day

Can't say that I'm sorry that Pat "No need for a National Transport Museum" Wallace has gone and hopefully his replacement will prove to be less of an elitist troglodyte.

On topic - in the first instance send some pics to the National Museum - to the new Director or acting Director - registered mail. It wouldn't be unheard of for a museum to dispose of artifacts but we won't go there. I wonder if TCD still send their unwanted donations of valuable books to Dunsink landfill? :rolleyes:

Wibbs

Judgement Day wrote: »

It wouldn't be unheard of for a museum to dispose of artifacts but we won't go there.

It doesn't even have to be dubious. Smaller museums around the world have auctioned off artifacts considered surplus to requirements, or when they closed down. I've bought a couple of things myself that way in the past. That said a medieval Irish cross if that's what it is would not be surplus to requirements in anyone's book. It's possible way back in the day it was lent to a local museum, college or antiquarian though and got lost in the inventory. I mean the Tara Brooch was in jewelers window as an ad for his own celtic revival stuff for the first 40 years of it's modern existence(IIRC one of the panels went missing during this period), so if the label is old, pre 20th century who knows. I'd love to see a pic

DeepSleeper

The National Museum of Ireland is divided into 4 divisions - if it is medieval in date then you need to talk to the Duty Officer of the Irish Antiquities Division - call 01 6777444 and ask for the Duty Officer in Irish Antiquities
or
email them at antiquitiesdo@museum.ie
or
write to them: Duty Officer, Irish Antiquities Division, National Museum of Ireland, Kildare Street, Dublin 2.

museologist

Any object dating to the 7th-11th century is archaeological and all archaeological objects are state property under the National Monuments (Amendment) Act, 1994.
See here:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0017/index.html

Aside from the excellent advice from DaySleeper above, some local museums are designated under the National Monuments Act and may be in a position to help if you have one nearby. Here is the list of designated museums: http://www.ahg.gov.ie/en/Culture/Schemes/DesignatedMuseums/index.html

Hope that helps.

DeepSleeper

museologist wrote: »

Any object dating to the 7th-11th century is archaeological and all archaeological objects are state property under the National Monuments (Amendment) Act, 1994.
See here:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0017/index.html

I think there is something of a grey area here with regards to ownership - museologist has correctly pointed out that, through the National Monuments (Amendment) Act 1994, the State claims ownership of all archaeological artefacts, but this relates only to items found after the coming into law of that piece of legislation - items found before that are not covered (as far as I know) and so if the item under discussion is medieval and Irish, it will be owned by the State under the terms of this act only if found after 1994 - it seems likely, however, that it was found before 1994 and so its ownership is more difficult to establish - the possible museum label it bears is likely to be a valuable piece of the puzzle...

slowburner

Deepsleeper has given all the necessary information.
The NMI will be delighted to help and advise, and they should very definitely be the first call you make.

Contrary to popular belief, any artefact which informs us about our past - no matter how recent - can be important.
In theory, artefacts predating the eighteenth century are considered to be of archaeological interest and fall under the remit of the various National Monuments acts.
In practice, an artefact from yesterday could be important.

What makes you think the cross was labelled by a museum? Might it be a label from an auction house?


I would like to express my sincere gratitude to you for doing the right thing.

If I can assist in any way, drop me a pm.

kabakuyu

Corholio wrote: »

A friend recently came into possession of an Irish artifact, a cross, that he has since learnt may be of some considerable value. This observation was because of secondary people familiar with the area commenting on the cross itself, and hasn't been valued or seen by any expert specifically. They commented that they think it could be of some importance historically.

I am wondering has anyone ever dealt with Irish museums in regards to this, the reason I ask is that it has a sticker that seems to suggest it was on loan from a museum at some point in time, though we don't think anytime in the recent past.

Anyone ever had a similar situation to this? Where would be a good place to take it? I appreciate any advice anyone could give.

Get independent legal advice before you do anything.

Maudi

Corholio wrote: »

Thanks a lot, will look him up.

pm sent.

Corholio

Thanks a lot everyone for the advice, I appreciate the expert opinion.

About the sticker, yes it could well very be an auction house sticker indeed, it was just a guess that it could be from a museum. We are planning to get independent legal advice and then to make the appropriate contact with a local museum or the National Museum, thanks again for the contact info. I was tempted when I posted first to include a pic, but for obvious reasons I'll hold off a bit until more is known about the piece. At the end of the day, it might not turn out to be as valuable/of importance as we think but should know soon enough.

Thanks for the pm too Maudi, much appreciated.

Coles

slowburner wrote: »

I would like to express my sincere gratitude to you for doing the right thing.

I'd like to repeat this sentiment. If you have an item of historical or archaeological interest then please please please ensure that it is safeguarded as part of our culture and heritage for all of us, but also for future generations.

Seanchai

Coles wrote: »

I'd like to repeat this sentiment. If you have an item of historical or archaeological interest then please please please ensure that it is safeguarded as part of our culture and heritage for all of us, but also for future generations.

Meanwhile, in the past 15 years somebody whom I know in Meath bulldosed three cottages which were part of a medieval manor. We never bothered photographing the ruins when they were there, and when I rang Dúchas some years back the scholarly man on the phone explained there was over 100,000 sites in Ireland which were unprotected because the state had not got the money.

It is only in recent years that I found out the significance of the medieval manor in question. It's a crime - but obviously technically not one because the state never protected it - but only people in the area can testify to those cottages being pummelled, and because they are gone we have no evidence that they were historically important. Ergo, no case.

On the other hand, because it's not protected does that mean I can buy a metal detector in Belfast, go to Meath and start looking around this site?

A movement to highlight the number of unprotected structures in Ireland is enormously needed - An Taisce? Even the most obnoxious, benighted, myopic, cultureless rightwinger should see the economic sense for tourism in protecting heritage. Surely.

museologist

Seanchai wrote: »

Meanwhile, in the past 15 years somebody whom I know in Meath bulldosed three cottages which were part of a medieval manor. We never bothered photographing the ruins when they were there, and when I rang Dúchas some years back the scholarly man on the phone explained there was over 100,000 sites in Ireland which were unprotected because the state had not got the money.

It is only in recent years that I found out the significance of the medieval manor in question. It's a crime - but obviously technically not one because the state never protected it - but only people in the area can testify to those cottages being pummelled, and because they are gone we have no evidence that they were historically important. Ergo, no case.

On the other hand, because it's not protected does that mean I can buy a metal detector in Belfast, go to Meath and start looking around this site?

A movement to highlight the number of unprotected structures in Ireland is enormously needed - An Taisce? Even the most obnoxious, benighted, myopic, cultureless rightwinger should see the economic sense for tourism in protecting heritage. Surely.

All archaeological sites are protected under the National Monuments Act already, however, sites still get destroyed (perhaps a little less so now that the Celtic Tiger is no more). A number of successful prosecutions have been taken, if I recall correctly. I don't think it is a question of the government having money in relation to protecting these sites, as money is not really the issue; the Duchas person was probably referring to the cost of conserving these sites, which would be astronomical.

The metal detector issue is clear: you cannot use a metal detector in Ireland unless you have a licence. If you have a licence you cannot use it on archaeological sites.

Maudi

museologist wrote: »

All archaeological sites are protected under the National Monuments Act already, however, sites still get destroyed (perhaps a little less so now that the Celtic Tiger is no more). A number of successful prosecutions have been taken, if I recall correctly. I don't think it is a question of the government having money in relation to protecting these sites, as money is not really the issue; the Duchas person was probably referring to the cost of conserving these sites, which would be astronomical.

The metal detector issue is clear: you cannot use a metal detector in Ireland unless you have a licence. If you have a licence you cannot use it on archaeological sites.

if you have a licence you cant use it on archaeological sites??anyhoo..your post just isint true..a more sympathetic view has been adopted re.detecting along beaches on land with permissions etc...however it still is illegal to interfere with any archaeological sites ( unless of course.one is a wealthy developer or road builder)

DeepSleeper

Maudi wrote: »

if you have a licence you cant use it on archaeological sites??anyhoo..your post just isint true..a more sympathetic view has been adopted re.detecting along beaches on land with permissions etc...however it still is illegal to interfere with any archaeological sites ( unless of course.one is a wealthy developer or road builder)

Just to clarify - when it comes to using a detection device on archaeological sites, a licence is required but that licence is site specific. The licence gives permission to person A to use device B on site C for the purpose of D and the licence application must be accompanied by a detailed method statement which outlines what you are going to do. If you are given a licence for one purpose and site, you cannot use the device on a different site or use the device for a different purpose.

In the same way, if you wish to search for archaeological objects in an area where no archaeological site is known to exist, then you must also have a licence for that device and area and purpose.

gobnaitolunacy

It seems every second thread turns into a metal detecting/Irish language/religion discussion.

GhostInTheRuins

I heard an interview on the radio yesterday with a curator in the national history museum in Donegal, looking for information on missing artifacts. The first one she mentioned was an early christian cross. Can you describe the one you have in a bit more detail?