From Marathon DNF to new goal Marathon in 3/4 weeks?

sideswipe

Had a nightmare experience in Cork yesterday- A large portion of sunday night was spent being kept awake by an insomniac 2 year old and in the bathroom with stomach issues resulting in only 3 hours sleep. decided to stick to my plan on race day (in hindsight I should have adjusted) and was going well till mile 12 when I got hit with stomach cramp. I tried to run it off but by mile 18 I was done and had to stop. Quitting was a very hard thing to do, I could have employed a walk run strategy to finish but knew I'd be just as devastated as I am now. I also didn't want to risk injuring myself as I was starting to get problems with my legs from running with 2 finger jammed into my rids to help ease the stomach cramp

I want to give Waterford a go at the end of the month to exorcise my demons . My question is after following a 12 week P&D (peaked at 62 mile week) which went very well, how should I treat the next three and a half weeks in terms of training? I feel another 3 week taper would leave me short on training.

Itziger

That's a tough question Swipe. Hard luck on the Cork experience btw. I think Waterford will be doable, let's say you did a long run yesterday. How are you feeling now? Do you think you'd be able to go for a 20 miler, if not this weekend, next for sure. Then do a few medium length spins, about 14 or 15 miles with some pmp numbers in there.

Having said all that, I'm far from an expert. But I reckon you could be on for Waterford then. Taper would have to be squeezed alright. 10 days before target instead of 2 to 3 weeks.

alitoast

Hard luck sideswipe, I may have passed you (blue top?). Just treat yesterday as a training run and away you go for waterfaord

Krusty_Clown

I had the same experience recently. Bombed in Boston because of the heat, so didn't run to my potential. Took an easy week following the marathon (as the heat still did a decent amount of damage to the body), and just ran short races in the weeks following my easy week (3k, 10k hill race, 5k, 10k) and then took it easy in the final few days leading up to Kildare marathon. I didn't hit the goal I was aiming for in Boston, but still ran a PB and was happy with the outcome.

So I'd take it easy for a few days, try to get some short/sharp sessions or races once you know you've recovered, and then have an easy week the week before Waterford. Maybe do the final week of your P&D schedule again in the lead-up to the race. If you have three weeks between races, try and do a 15 mile easy run, somewhere in the middle.

sideswipe

How are you feeling now? Do you think you'd be able to go for a 20 miler, if not this weekend, next for sure.

Legs feel good, it feels more like I ran a hard session so I was thinking of doing a 20 miler next Mon/Tues.

Hard luck sideswipe, I may have passed you (blue top?)

Cheers, you probably did, it felt like everybody did!

I had the same experience recently. Bombed in Boston because of the heat, so didn't run to my potential

Cheers for the input Krusty, I had to smile at your idea of bombed! I wish I could bomb like that! The difference with your experience is that you finished, I didn't so yesterday didn't take that much out of me- so I feel I'd benefit from a 20 miler . Did you do any long runs between the two marathons? Re the shorter races I've signed up for the docklands 8k and am going to look at some other short races to help maintain fitness.

Murta

Hal Hidgon has some training guides to running multiple marathons that are 2, 4, 6 and 8 weeks apart. Here's the link.
http://www.halhigdon.com/training/51153/Marathon-Multiple-Marathons-Training-Program

I'll be attempting something similar myself as I plan on doing Berlin and Dublin as I've missed Boston, Kildare and Cork and will miss Waterford. Bad run of luck injury and sickness wise. Was marathon fit at start of March. Since then have managed a handful of runs. Current injury (broken nose) is preventing me from running for a further 2-4 weeks.

Krusty_Clown

sideswipe wrote: »

Cheers for the input Krusty, I had to smile at your idea of bombed! I wish I could bomb like that! The difference with your experience is that you finished, I didn't so yesterday didn't take that much out of me- so I feel I'd benefit from a 20 miler . Did you do any long runs between the two marathons? Re the shorter races I've signed up for the docklands 8k and am going to look at some other short races to help maintain fitness.

Yeah, I finished, but did so at sub-optimal pace, so apart from the heat, it was pretty much a training run (I'd done a 50k at the same pace 5 weeks earlier). In your case, did you maintain close to marathon pace for 18 miles? If so, that's a damn fine training session, and does require some recovery. But if you are feeling totally recovered by the weekend, you could probably just to a do-over of the last three weeks of the same P&D program (but be careful about doing another 20 mile run, unless you feel absolutely niggle free).

I kept an eye on the P&D post-marathon recovery program and also the four week multi-marathon program in the same book, threw in some short races (which help with the motivation as well as maintaining the sharpness) and had a 5/6 day taper. Best of luck!

sideswipe

Murta wrote: »

Hal Hidgon has some training guides to running multiple marathons that are 2, 4, 6 and 8 weeks apart. Here's the link.
http://www.halhigdon.com/training/51153/Marathon-Multiple-Marathons-Training-Program

I'll be attempting something similar myself as I plan on doing Berlin and Dublin as I've missed Boston, Kildare and Cork and will miss Waterford. Bad run of luck injury and sickness wise. Was marathon fit at start of March. Since then have managed a handful of runs. Current injury (broken nose) is preventing me from running for a further 2-4 weeks.

Cheers Murta, sorry to hear about your injuries, hope they sort themselves out soon for you.

Interesting link, my problem now is knowing what type of training I could fit in. I'm intending on doing a couple of shorter races- an 8k and a 10k, I feel I'd love to do a 20 miler but not sure if it would be detrimental. I'd have to do it either 2 weeks before the next marathon or this weekend which might be too close to mondays failed attempt. Monday ended up an 18 miler with 13 @ PMP so was still a tough run so a 20 mile run this week may not such a good idea but I'm just not sure.

Pisco Sour

I'd imagine that this sort of thing happens quite a bit, where somebody doesn't run their goal marathon well for whatever reason, and wants quick redemption. I'm surprised there isn't a training plan out there for this sort of situation in some marathon book to be honest.

sideswipe

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Yeah, I finished, but did so at sub-optimal pace, so apart from the heat, it was pretty much a training run (I'd done a 50k at the same pace 5 weeks earlier). In your case, did you maintain close to marathon pace for 18 miles? If so, that's a damn fine training session, and does require some recovery. But if you are feeling totally recovered by the weekend, you could probably just to a do-over of the last three weeks of the same P&D program (but be careful about doing another 20 mile run, unless you feel absolutely niggle free).

I kept an eye on the P&D post-marathon recovery program and also the four week multi-marathon program in the same book, threw in some short races (which help with the motivation as well as maintaining the sharpness) and had a 5/6 day taper. Best of luck!

Yeah monday was 18 w/13 @ PMP so a good session, in terms of niggles I'm fine apart from some tenderness in one calf from running awkwardly while clutching my side. I feel another 20 miler would be more to do with confidence than anything else as I've felt pretty sh1te since monday.

I think I'll probably go with the last 3 weeks of the P&D program with some races thrown in, thanks again.

sideswipe

Pisco Sour wrote: »

I'd imagine that this sort of thing happens quite a bit, where somebody doesn't run their goal marathon well for whatever reason, and wants quick redemption. I'm surprised there isn't a training plan out there for this sort of situation in some marathon book to be honest.

Yeah thats kind of what I'm looking for. There are multi-marathon plans like Murta's link above. I followed P&D and there is a 4 week plan there but it seems quite low on miles (in the weeks immediately following the first marathon) as it involves recovery from marathon 1, because I only ran 18 miles I feel I'd like more miles over the next couple of weeks as I don't think I need the recovery as much.

daydorunrun

I'm in a similar situation Sideswipe, trained well for Cork, tapered well but a family emergency meant I never ran Cork and switched to Waterford instead.
My problem now is it feels like I've been tapering for too long, I'd love to get a final 20 miler done this week but am really unsure if it would do more harm than good.

Anybody any thoughts on the pro's and con's of a 20 miler two weeks before race day??

sideswipe

daydorunrun wrote: »

I'm in a similar situation Sideswipe, trained well for Cork, tapered well but a family emergency meant I never ran Cork and switched to Waterford instead.
My problem now is it feels like I've been tapering for too long, I'd love to get a final 20 miler done this week but am really unsure if it would do more harm than good.

Anybody any thoughts on the pro's and con's of a 20 miler two weeks before race day??

I've been trying to figure that out myself, I've come to the conclusion that running a final 20 miler is not the be all and end all. As Krusty mentioned above some short sharp sessions and races are probably better for maintaining sharpness and motivation. Thats the approach I've gone with unfortunately my body feels wrecked at this stage, came down with a dose after Cork and am just shaking the effects off now so training has not been good. Still hoping to run Waterford but it's definitely a case of following the heart over the head at this stage.

Good luck!

Krusty_Clown

The circumstances are slightly different, as sideswipe ran 18 miles with 13 @pmp during the Cork race. daydorunrun on the other hand probably did not manage a long run due to family circumstances, so has probably effectively been on a 6/7 week taper.

daydorunrun: It really depends on your level of experience with regard to running marathon distances. If this is your first time out, and you have only run one or two 20 mile runs in your running career, then 20 miles might be a bit much two weeks before your new goal race (maybe do 17 or 18 miles). If on the other hand you have a few marathons under your belt and know that you can recover well from a 20 mile run, then it's probably a good idea (as long as you still have two weeks between the 20 mile run and race day).

daydorunrun

Yeah I suppose running a final 20 mile LSR is something I want to do for my confidence on race day. I've done 3x20, 3x18 2x17 and 2x16 with some PMP miles thrown in every couple of weeks so I suppose I should just do another 16/18 and concentrate on the short sharp sessions but I can't shift the urge to do a final 20.......maybe it's that taper madness I often read about around here!!
Hope you get over that dose and make it to Waterford!!

Just saw your post there Krusty- This will be my 3rd marathon 3:46 last time out, I generally do recover well from long runs.......I have a half day tomorrow so might do my long run then to give my slightly over 2 weeks recovery, will aim for 18 and if I feel good round it up to 20. Thanks for the advice.

Clearlier

What's your training volume like? What's your weakest point? How quickly do you normally recover? How many long runs have you done? Are you planning to do it with any at marathon pace? What's your level of fatigue like?

Those are just some of the questions you have to take into consideration. If a 20 mile run is something that you would do year round anyway, you're running 90+ miles per week and you normally recover quickly then a 20 mile run 2 weeks out might be relatively routine.

If you tapered for Cork then you should probably only be looking at a 10-14 day taper anyway so definitely do a long run but maybe restrict it to between 2:00 and 2:15 with the last 4 or 5 miles at your target marathon pace. Ease your way into the run and don't be tempted to pick up the pace until you get to the marathon pace section. It's easy to leave your race on this training run if you don't hold back.

N.B. If like sideswipe you have a cold don't do this, focus instead of getting to the start line healthy!