We Irish!

jimaneejeebus

Humor me

Do you think we as a nation tend to revel in Schadenfreude or do we tend to encourage others?
Do you think we are wary of outsiders or do you think we are welcoming?
Would you describe our media as being conservative or liberal?
Do you think we dismiss independent thought too readily or do you think we foster & encourage it?
If you had to choose, how would you best describe our society? Assertive or passive?

Why?


In a pre-emptive strike-and armed with nothing but an inflated sense of self importance, I am going to foolishy try and answer. Feel free to totally rip my balls off. Said emasculation may be funny if nothing else.


1- Do you think we as a nation tend to revel in Schadenfreude or do we tend to encourage others?

Schadenfreude- As a nation we were bullied for 600 years. The victim has now become the perpetrator. We fu*cking hate anyone doing well in anything.


2- Do you think we are wary of outsiders or do you think we are welcoming?

Wary of outsiders-Bit of a historical precedence here of the Vikings, Normans, patriarchy of the church, 600 years of British rule. We don't just distrust foreigners. We distrust people from other parishes.




4-Do you think we dismiss independent thought too readily or do you think we foster & encourage it?

Dismiss Independent thought (as in when David Mc Williams [radical libertarian that he is] was told to go kill himself)

Why? We are coming from a hugely patriarchial society where the priest was always right-even with no evidence-or flying in the face of evidence....our fathers were also always right or they'd bate us....so were our teachers cos they'd bate us AND they were probably also priests.



No time for 3 & 5 .....tomorro maybe.

spacetweek

I'm pretty much with you on 2 and 4, but the first - begrudgery - I do not find any hint of this in Dublin. Sorry to start a rural vs urban war but it is, however, pretty bad outside the cities, at least as far as I can see amongst my relatives. I think it's because the only rich guy in the parish was an Englishman living in a stately home and people can't seem to get that mental image out of their heads.

On 4, I think you're right but we're at least a generation removed from a time when this was the case.

slowburner

I think this so called Irish begrudgery is an overblown and irritating myth.
Nor do I think it is any more prevalent in rural areas, that's just plain silly.

I don't think we are any more mistrustful of foreigners/other parishes than any other nation. We might even be more tolerant.

I don't think we stand out for our dismissal of independent thought, either.
Skeptical, maybe, but not dismissive.

Maybe fifty years ago our fathers and teachers would 'bate' us. Maybe fifty years ago the Catholic church had a grip of iron.
Not now.

jimaneejeebus

spacetweek wrote: »

On 4, I think you're right but we're at least a generation removed from a time when this was the case.

Yes I agree but I think a generation ago is not too far removed in sociological terms.... As in cultures are deeply affected by their past. Most of that generation are still alive. They rared/are still raring the current generation. So I think the cultural impact is still very much prevalent?

slowburner wrote: »

I think this so called Irish begrudgery is an overblown and irritating myth.

I don't think we are any more mistrustful of foreigners/other parishes than any other nation. We might even be more tolerant.

I don't see any evidence that we are in any way a tolerant nation. The 'blacks', (loads of people I know wont even get a taxi with a black taxi driver) the polish (people are not as bad with the poles but there still exists a bit of racism towards them), the english (who doesn't like seeing the english do badly in anything over here!) Americans (I have seen quite a few Americans brought into a cultural debate (americans are stupid) by someone who because they watched a bit of Michael Moore suddenly think they are an authority on the subject...)
It is not exclusive to foreigners either....The scumbags, the travellers, the public sector, the private sector, the dole frauds, the rich, the poor, ad infinite um. Not to mention 1 out of every 3 kids being bullied at least once out of every school year http://antibullyingireland.nfshost.com/node/15

slowburner wrote: »

I don't think we stand out for our dismissal of independent thought, either.
Skeptical, maybe, but not dismissive.

Again I'm not so sure.... Look at our school system. Numerous groups of people from officaldom have come out complaining about how it stifles independent thought and encourages rote learning.
When they finally make it to college a lot of them have a poor grasp of basic math and english. That is not fostering independent thought, it is not even fostering skepticism, it actually means some of us are kind of stupid
.[/QUOTE]

slowburner

jimaneejeebus wrote: »

I don't see any evidence that we are in any way a tolerant nation. The 'blacks', (loads of people I know wont even get a taxi with a black taxi driver) the polish (people are not as bad with the poles but there still exists a bit of racism towards them), the english (who doesn't like seeing the english do badly in anything over here!) Americans (I have seen quite a few Americans brought into a cultural debate (americans are stupid) by someone who because they watched a bit of Michael Moore suddenly think they are an authority on the subject...)
It is not exclusive to foreigners either....The scumbags, the travellers, the public sector, the private sector, the dole frauds, the rich, the poor, ad infinite um. Not to mention 1 out of every 3 kids being bullied at least once out of every school year http://antibullyingireland.nfshost.com/node/15

So Irish people are basically 'groupist' then - they despise just about everybody?
This is what you say when you list the public and private sectors and the unemployed.
That's your opinion, I don't agree with it, but that's life.

Again I'm not so sure.... Look at our school system. Numerous groups of people from officaldom have come out complaining about how it stifles independent thought and encourages rote learning.
When they finally make it to college a lot of them have a poor grasp of basic math and english. That is not fostering independent thought, it is not even fostering skepticism, it actually means some of us are kind of stupid
.

Sure, our educational system is not perfect - whose is?
Just because we might have a less than perfect educational system, it does not follow that we are a nation incapable of thinking for ourselves.


Perhaps you should add 'negative national self image' to your OP.

jimaneejeebus

slowburner wrote: »

So Irish people are basically 'groupist' then - they despise just about everybody?

Of course not everybody does...[i don't and I suspect u don't either] I think its widely assumed that I'm generalizing.

slowburner wrote: »

Just because we might have a less than perfect educational system, it does not follow that we are a nation incapable of thinking for ourselves.

You may be right, but the question was do you think we stifle independent thought?

slowburner wrote: »

Perhaps you should add 'negative national self image' to your OP.

Or delusional national self-image?

slowburner

jimaneejeebus wrote: »

This discussion is degenerating. I'll leave you to it.

jimaneejeebus

slowburner wrote: »

This discussion is degenerating. I'll leave you to it.

No worries man. There's a philosophy whereby we must recognize the problem before we can attempt to fix it. If u thought I was being negative, I'm sorry.

looksee

What is unhelpful is this habit of sitting gazing (nationally) into a pint reflecting on one's woes and who is getting at us and whose fault it all is.

Finnbar01

jimaneejeebus wrote: »

Humor me

Do you think we as a nation tend to revel in Schadenfreude or do we tend to encourage others?
Do you think we are wary of outsiders or do you think we are welcoming?
Would you describe our media as being conservative or liberal?
Do you think we dismiss independent thought too readily or do you think we foster & encourage it?
If you had to choose, how would you best describe our society? Assertive or passive?

Why?


In a pre-emptive strike-and armed with nothing but an inflated sense of self importance, I am going to foolishy try and answer. Feel free to totally rip my balls off. Said emasculation may be funny if nothing else.


1- Do you think we as a nation tend to revel in Schadenfreude or do we tend to encourage others?

Schadenfreude- As a nation we were bullied for 600 years. The victim has now become the perpetrator. We fu*cking hate anyone doing well in anything.


2- Do you think we are wary of outsiders or do you think we are welcoming?

Wary of outsiders-Bit of a historical precedence here of the Vikings, Normans, patriarchy of the church, 600 years of British rule. We don't just distrust foreigners. We distrust people from other parishes.




4-Do you think we dismiss independent thought too readily or do you think we foster & encourage it?

Dismiss Independent thought (as in when David Mc Williams [radical libertarian that he is] was told to go kill himself)

Why? We are coming from a hugely patriarchial society where the priest was always right-even with no evidence-or flying in the face of evidence....our fathers were also always right or they'd bate us....so were our teachers cos they'd bate us AND they were probably also priests.



No time for 3 & 5 .....tomorro maybe.

A lot of projection there.

JoePdw

2- Do you think we are wary of outsiders or do you think we are welcoming?

I can tell that you are welcome, as a nation. On a personal level it depends on type of person, there are nice people and scumbags in every nation, you just have to be keen to see who's who. And also irish on personal level don't make friends with foreigners on long term basis. and those that do are culchie scumbags, just me experience, may not apply to others.

paky

jimaneejeebus wrote: »

No worries man. There's a philosophy whereby we must recognize the problem before we can attempt to fix it. If u thought I was being negative, I'm sorry.

Everything considered to be uniquely Irish with us isn't in fact so.Irish people exhibit traits of a minority group; excessive drinking, weary of outsiders, the incompetent male stereotype (or the incompetent thick ignorant paddy), circumspect success normally attributed to luck (luck of the Irish) or dishonesty (cute hoar) and begrudgery.

In my opinion, every perceived negative trait about Irish people is as a result of Britain subjucating us Irish throughout history. What remains in Ireland is a persecuted mentality and from that stems 'Irish' culture. In Ireland their remains a fear of success, since anything successful ever to come from this country was British, and to be considered successful in Ireland is to be considered British.

ivyQ

JoePdw wrote: »

I can tell that you are welcome, as a nation. On a personal level it depends on type of person, there are nice people and scumbags in every nation, you just have to be keen to see who's who. And also irish on personal level don't make friends with foreigners on long term basis. and those that do are culchie scumbags, just me experience, may not apply to others.

.. , Im neither a culchie or a scumbag but have friends of different nationalities ...Ireland is a very racist country on every level ...just read this thread for gods sake

People need to stop trying to see what is different in people of different nationalities/cultures and start seeing what we all have in common .

Frank Lee Midere

ivyQ wrote: »

.. , Im neither a culchie or a scumbag but have friends of different nationalities ...Ireland is a very racist country on every level ...just read this thread for gods sake

People need to stop trying to see what is different in people of different nationalities and start seeing what we all have in common .

Why did this thread prove that Ireland is "racist" and how?

ivyQ

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Why did this thread prove that Ireland is "racist" and how?

I mean allot of the negative remarks on this thread about Irish people are true ....will elaborate another time

Torakx

If you had to choose, how would you best describe our society? Assertive or passive?

Of the two choices passive.

In my oppinion.....
Completely lost and seeking a new father figure. One will be provided during the end of this latest austerity crisis, so we can return to our shells and drink up our fill of propoganda and hate towards others and ourselves.
The self hate is strong in this country lol

robp

Torakx wrote: »

If you had to choose, how would you best describe our society? Assertive or passive?

Of the two choices passive.

In my oppinion.....
Completely lost and seeking a new father figure. One will be provided during the end of this latest austerity crisis, so we can return to our shells and drink up our fill of propoganda and hate towards others and ourselves.
The self hate is strong in this country lol

Maybe people have realised that all the protesting regarding the crisis such as in Greece has little power to improve the situation. Countries that have seen many protest like Greece are incomparable worse off then Ireland.

Torakx

robp wrote: »

Maybe people have realised that all the protesting regarding the crisis such as in Greece has little power to improve the situation. Countries that have seen many protest like Greece are incomparable worse off then Ireland.

Hmm chicken or the egg situation?
Did Greece get worse because of the protests or did they protest because it got worse?
But I do feel that the regular protests are nothing to the people in control of policy. They probably just laugh at the population, as they can carry on without being dragged into the street and hung, like the good old days.

Garunteed if the Irish hung just one banker in the street for the insane corruption and digust they have shown to others, the rest of them in this country would be quick to leave our soil or get serious about their responsibilities.

But the Irish I think have been under the thumb for so long, it's not going to happen. We as a nation would have to be instantly put through some really extreme pressure to stand up for ourselves.
I don't know if it really is the flouride doing this(when considering the rebellions in the north compared to the south) or just the social conditioning, but the Irish are renowned for being passive and complaining behind peoples backs or into a pint for a large portion of us.
Thats how it appears to me anyway. I could well be wrong too.

Elmo

Do you think we as a nation tend to revel in Schadenfreude or do we tend to encourage others?
Do you think we are wary of outsiders or do you think we are welcoming?
Would you describe our media as being conservative or liberal?
Do you think we dismiss independent thought too readily or do you think we foster & encourage it?
If you had to choose, how would you best describe our society? Assertive or passive?

I look at it from the point of view of Tea

1. We offer tea and we encourage people to drink tea
2. If they don't want tea we consider them an outsider and suggest coffee, we're a bit embarrassed as we only have Maxwell House and that's not really coffee, is it?
3. We discuss the coffee culture and that it might be a reason you can't get a good cup of tea in Café nowadays. And why is Sky News all over the place?
4. We worry that perhaps people think too much about coffee while forgetting the real debate about which tea is the best Lyons or Barrys
5. We passively except that someone might like a coffee on occasion, but in the back of our mind we're thinking when does one coffee become a regular, and since when did regular come into our lexicon.

robp

Torakx wrote: »

Hmm chicken or the egg situation?
Did Greece get worse because of the protests or did they protest because it got worse?
But I do feel that the regular protests are nothing to the people in control of policy. They probably just laugh at the population, as they can carry on without being dragged into the street and hung, like the good old days.

Garunteed if the Irish hung just one banker in the street for the insane corruption and digust they have shown to others, the rest of them in this country would be quick to leave our soil or get serious about their responsibilities.

But the Irish I think have been under the thumb for so long, it's not going to happen.

I think this theory is overblown. Every country has their own troubled events in history. I don't see how Ireland is particularly 'put down'. Demonstrations have been larger in Greece for two reasons i) a far deeper and destructive economic crisis, ii) a weaker civic society. Greece was under a dictatorship as recently as 1974.

Torakx

robp wrote: »

I think this theory is overblown. Every country has their own troubled events in history. I don't see how Ireland is particularly 'put down'. Demonstrations have been larger in Greece for two reasons i) a far deeper and destructive economic crisis, ii) a weaker civic society. Greece was under a dictatorship as recently as 1974.

We Irish have been under the thumb of empires and dictators since the druids got the boot me thinks.
We have even had our own holocaust, apparently 5million dead and mass graves all over the country.
Now we have been sold to brussels and the IMF goons.
But that's what happens to most of the little guys in this world.

robp

Torakx wrote: »

We Irish have been under the thumb of empires and dictators since the druids got the boot me thinks.
We have even had our own holocaust, apparently 5million dead and mass graves all over the country.
Now we have been sold to brussels and the IMF goons.
But that's what happens to most of the little guys in this world.

Well I have no doubt war and oppression existed while the druids were here too. The Great Hunger killed 1 million, not 5 million. It was an awful awful event greatly exacerbated by misgovernance but it was not a genocide as it was deliberately orchestrated by anyone.

Frank Lee Midere

robp wrote: »

Well I have no doubt war and oppression existed while the druids were here too. The Great Hunger killed 1 million, not 5 million. It was an awful awful event greatly exacerbated by misgovernment but it was not a genocide as it was deliberately orchestrated by anyone.

It was people slaughter.

Torakx

http://www.irishholocaust.org/

ivyQ

Torakx wrote: »

http://www.irishholocaust.org/

Thanks for the link ...looks very interesting

robp

Torakx wrote: »

http://www.irishholocaust.org/

That website seem to be unreliable. The vast majority of historians agree that misgovernance and not intent was responsible for the famine. Even if some British rulers were happy to see it occur it does not in any way indicate that they caused it. There were comparable tragedies in Scotland and Finland perhaps not as horrific but they do show that the Great Hunger was not a orchestrated genocide.

Elmo

robp wrote: »

That website seem to be unreliable. The vast majority of historians agree that misgovernance and not intent was responsible for the famine. Even if some British rulers were happy to see it occur it does not in any way indicate that they caused it. There were comparable tragedies in Scotland and Finland perhaps not as horrific but they do show that the Great Hunger was not a orchestrated genocide.

You could say as Britain became industrialised the little equality between the two nations rapidly fell.

In GB there were ~18m in 1841, while in Ireland the population was at ~8m
In GB there were ~28m in 1861, while in Ireland the population was at ~5.7m

Agriculture from Ireland help to support food imports to a rapidly increasing urban population in GB.

The death of so many Irish had a dual effect, the reduction in the numbers of Irish Nationalist/Catholics and the availability of food into GB, with out relying on a foreign supplier.

If Ireland had continued to grow at the same rate as GB, while also providing voting rights too all, This could have provided a much different West Minister by 1870.

Remember what had been said about the Irish:- "the Irish to swap countries with the Dutch. He added that the Dutch would make Ireland the most beautiful island in the world while the Irish would neglect to mend the dykes left to them by the Dutch and therefore would be drowned." (by Bismarck or an English man)

But lets be honest Ireland was not run by the Irish, it was run by the British.

But we've not move totally away from being one of the UK's main food supplier, does it make sense that Ireland continues to look to the UK when its currency is different, and when we could try to make gains in other Euro states.

Torakx

robp wrote: »

That website seem to be unreliable. The vast majority of historians agree that misgovernance and not intent was responsible for the famine. Even if some British rulers were happy to see it occur it does not in any way indicate that they caused it. There were comparable tragedies in Scotland and Finland perhaps not as horrific but they do show that the Great Hunger was not a orchestrated genocide.

History is written by the victors.
I think it was Churchill who said that too ^^

If you put 20 people in a room and pay 15 of them to put their hand up to agree on a topic that reuires more thought and investigation than they have time for. The result may be 18-20 people putting their hand up in agreement.

In marketing strategy, it is known that to make a brand or idea popular amongst the majority, you need to get the early adopters.
This is roughly 18% of your target market. Once you hit that number the rest will follow, because it feels safe to do so.

Human behaviour is often misguided, even when thinking they are doing the right thing.
So it doesn't matter how many historians say somethign is so, I would always keep an open mind.

I don't necessarily believe that website. But I also don't believe the historians or that majority.
I am leaning more towards the holocaust theory, simply because it makes more sense within the context of the situation back then.