Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Best defensive / intelligent boxer ?

  • 10-01-2012 10:49pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,759
    ✭✭✭


    Pretty boy floyd? Sugar ray? Whittaker? Ali ? Vladamir Klitschko? Hopkins?

    Who was the greatest? Who is the best currently? Who was the best at changing defense into offence , who was the best at not getting hit? Who had the best array of tactics? Who had the best reflexes? Roy jones? etc


Welcome!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57,372 walshb
    ✭✭✭✭


    For pure relaxed and knowing what he is doing and never ever looking flustered or in trouble, then hard to see past the best James Toney. Effortless fighter.

    At his best I don't think it was possible to KO or stop him, or even hurt him all that much. He is a born fighter. It is innate inside him, even more so than Floyd.

    Reason: Floyd is very defensive and skilled, but Toney is the kind of guy that could fight at ANY weight and survive. Floyd would be stopped if he went to MW or above. Defense or not, he would get stopped. Toney is almost impossible to stop because of his chin and that slippiness, and boxing brain.

    One could put Toney in against any HW that ever lived and I would be confident that he would not get stopped. May well lose to most, but none I reckon could take him out. BTW, not the current version, I mean the one from the Holyfield fight. Even if they landed a shot, the guys chin is so solid, and then you take into account that you rarely, if ever got to follow up and land because he was so cagey and slippy. So, for this I rate him as the best overall defensive/intelligent fighter ever.

    When employed I believe his combination of defense, shoulder roll, dips, ducks and feints are the best of them all.
    And, when you consider that his feet weren't used much at all (not great foot movement or foot speed), then I think it's extra special, as he did it all in a phone booth environment.

    Pea Whitaker and Floyd are close behind.

    For defensive skill while also being very aggressive it is hard to look past Duran. He operated on offense and defense simultaneously. Unreal. He could launch aggressive assaults whilst also dipping, avoiding, slipping, feinting and drawing on against a foe.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 759 tryingmybestt
    ✭✭✭


    walshb wrote: »
    For pure relaxed and knowing what he is doing and never ever looking flustered or in trouble, then hard to see past the best James Toney. Effortless fighter.

    At his best I don't think it was possible to KO or stop him, or even hurt him all that much. He is a born fighter. It is innate inside him, even more so than Floyd.

    Reason: Floyd is very defensive and skilled, but Toney is the kind of guy that could fight at ANY weight and survive. Floyd would be stopped if he went to MW or above. Defense or not, he would get stopped. Toney is almost impossible to stop because of his chin and that slippiness, and boxing brain.






    I don't think toney's chin is any better than mayweather's....mayweather's is A1

    i don't think toney's boxing brain and defence are any better than mayweathers either

    no way floyd would get stopped and MW....he might get bullied and shoved around but impossible to catch his chin clean when he's on the defensive...

    toney was a master but i'd put floyd above him......toney moved from middleweight to heavy.....floyd moved from super featherweight to light middle.....not comparative?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57,372 walshb
    ✭✭✭✭


    walshb wrote: »
    For pure relaxed and knowing what he is doing and never ever looking flustered or in trouble, then hard to see past the best James Toney. Effortless fighter.

    At his best I don't think it was possible to KO or stop him, or even hurt him all that much. He is a born fighter. It is innate inside him, even more so than Floyd.

    Reason: Floyd is very defensive and skilled, but Toney is the kind of guy that could fight at ANY weight and survive. Floyd would be stopped if he went to MW or above. Defense or not, he would get stopped. Toney is almost impossible to stop because of his chin and that slippiness, and boxing brain.



    I don't think toney's chin is any better than mayweather's....mayweather's is A1

    i don't think toney's boxing brain and defence are any better than mayweathers either

    no way floyd would get stopped and MW....he might get bullied and shoved around but impossible to catch his chin clean when he's on the defensive...

    toney was a master but i'd put floyd above him......toney moved from middleweight to heavy.....floyd moved from super featherweight to light middle.....not comparative?
    Floyd had one fight at LMW, against a faded Oscar.

    Yes, both are brilliant; I just think Toney is more a defensive fighter who just knows what to do that bit better. Floyd does, but he relies more on his natural gifts. Toney relies on natural and innate ability. My comparison is that I think Floyd would get stopped if he ever met a real MW or heavier fighter.

    I do not believe Toney can be stopped when he is in shape at ANY weight, by any man. He just had that knack of never getting bothered or hurt or hit consistently. I really think his overall defensive ability is the best I have seen, bar his very average footwork.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 759 tryingmybestt
    ✭✭✭


    walshb wrote: »
    Floyd had one fight at LMW, against a faded Oscar.

    Yes, both are brilliant; I just think Toney is more a defensive fighter who just knows what to do that bit better. Floyd does, but he relies more on his natural gifts. Toney relies on natural and innate ability.



    who has toney fought at heavy....a very faded holyfield?

    losing to lebedev?

    when floyd oscar fought floyd oscar was still not far off his prime...

    i'd agree that toney has more of a natural ability and floyd rely's more on reflexes etc., but in saying that i'd prob rate floyd's effectiveness higher than toney's....

    toney struggled in many of his fights...e.g. nunn, jones, mccallum......floyd usually outclasses his opponents....

    so in summary i'd agree that toney had more of a natural ability but i believe floyd was better because he was more affective and his natural ability only slightly less than toney's


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,986 Spazdarn
    ✭✭✭


    I think both fighters have a different approach to their defensive style, Toney's is definitely the more eye catching. Floyd's is solid, dependable and very well executed.

    I'd probably plum for Floyd between the two, but my memory has definitely be tarnished a bit by modern day Toney.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 759 tryingmybestt
    ✭✭✭


    I think both fighters have a different approach to their defensive style, Toney's is definitely the more eye catching. Floyd's is solid, dependable and very well executed.

    I'd probably plum for Floyd between the two, but my memory has definitely be tarnished a bit by modern day Toney.




    agree totally....toney was much more eye catching with his big rolls and dips...floyd was much more subtle with his little shoulder rolls, feints, slips and parry's


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57,372 walshb
    ✭✭✭✭


    walshb wrote: »



    who has toney fought at heavy....a very faded holyfield?

    losing to lebedev?

    when floyd oscar fought floyd oscar was still not far off his prime...

    i'd agree that toney has more of a natural ability and floyd rely's more on reflexes etc., but in saying that i'd prob rate floyd's effectiveness higher than toney's....

    toney struggled in many of his fights...e.g. nunn, jones, mccallum......floyd usually outclasses his opponents....

    so in summary i'd agree that toney had more of a natural ability but i believe floyd was better because he was more affective and his natural ability only slightly less than toney's

    Well, the Toney that fought Lebedev does get stopped. I am talking about when in shape at 190 lbs and above. Apart from being so so tough, he was also so so slippy and cute. I can't see anyone KOing or stopping him, ever. Beating him via points? Yes. Many.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 759 tryingmybestt
    ✭✭✭


    walshb wrote: »

    Well, the Toney that fought Lebedev does get stopped. I am talking about when in shape at 190 lbs and above.





    ok, so who are you talking about when he fought at heavy....what opponent was superior to oscar when floyd fought him at light middle??.....there is none

    mayweather's move from super feather to light middle is equally as impressive as toney's move from middle to heavy....especially considering the quality of opposition


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57,372 walshb
    ✭✭✭✭


    walshb wrote: »





    ok, so who are you talking about when he fought at heavy....what opponent was superior to oscar when floyd fought him at light middle??.....there is none

    mayweather's move from super feather to light middle is equally as impressive as toney's move from middle to heavy....especially considering the quality of opposition


    Ok, opposition level is the same. I still think that Floyd if he met Hagler, Hearns, SRR etc at middle, he gets stopped. I do not see an in shape 190 lbs and above Toney getting stopped by any HW fighter ever.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 759 tryingmybestt
    ✭✭✭


    walshb wrote: »


    Ok, opposition level is the same. I still think that Floyd if he met Hagler, Hearns, SRR etc at middle, he gets stopped. I do not see an in shape 190 lbs and above Toney getting stopped by any HW fighter ever.




    toney, louis or vitali wouldn't stop toney?

    no way would hagler or hearns stop mayweather.....duran gave hagler fits and he was smaller than mayweather.....

    mayweather might lose but definitely not stopped.....if he goes on defensive nobody can catch him often enough to stop him.....also he has a granite chin.....only ever seen him rocked twice against mosley and corley and he recovered in a second......


    noway mayweather gets stopped at middle...

    i could see louis or tyson stopping toney


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,560 Kess73
    ✭✭✭✭


    walshb wrote: »




    toney, louis or vitali wouldn't stop toney?

    no way would hagler or hearns stop mayweather.....duran gave hagler fits and he was smaller than mayweather.....

    mayweather might lose but definitely not stopped.....if he goes on defensive nobody can catch him often enough to stop him.....also he has a granite chin.....only ever seen him rocked twice against mosley and corley and he recovered in a second......


    noway mayweather gets stopped at middle...

    i could see louis or tyson stopping toney



    Hagler and Mayweather jnr at Middleweight, and you think Mayweather jnr isnot getting stopped?

    No way can I agree with that. Hagler has the chin to withstand anything Mayweather can throw. Hagler has the fitness/stamina to be relentless right to the final bell. Hagler has the power to hurt Mayweather, and the ring savvy to work him out.

    At middleweight Mayweather jnr would be at too much of a physical disadvantage to go the distance against one of the greatest middleweights of all time.

    Hagler had his peak was not the fighter that many remember from his loss to Leonard. That was a slower older Hagler who was not the slick mover from earlier years. Peak Hagler had very good hand speed, good footwork, an excellent defence, and could outbox you as easily as he could outfight you. Plus that cast iron chin was there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 759 tryingmybestt
    ✭✭✭


    Kess73 wrote: »



    Hagler and Mayweather jnr at Middleweight, and you think Mayweather jnr isnot getting stopped?

    No way can I agree with that. Hagler has the chin to withstand anything Mayweather can throw. Hagler has the fitness/stamina to be relentless right to the final bell. Hagler has the power to hurt Mayweather, and the ring savvy to work him out.

    At middleweight Mayweather jnr would be at too much of a physical disadvantage to go the distance against one of the greatest middleweights of all time.

    Hagler had his peak was not the fighter that many remember from his loss to Leonard. That was a slower older Hagler who was not the slick mover from earlier years. Peak Hagler had very good hand speed, good footwork, an excellent defence, and could outbox you as easily as he could outfight you. Plus that cast iron chin was there.



    hagler would dominate mayweather and win a wide points victory probably but i don't think he would get the ko.......he couldn't ko duran who came up from lightweight and duran gave him a good go....

    mayweather's fast feet would dance around hagler.....hagler would catch up with him sometimes of course but difficult to catch him clean.....add in mayweather excellent chin and i don't see the ko coming.....i do see big points win for hagler


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,560 Kess73
    ✭✭✭✭




    hagler would dominate mayweather and win a wide points victory probably but i don't think he would get the ko.......he couldn't ko duran who came up from lightweight and duran gave him a good go....

    mayweather's fast feet would dance around hagler.....hagler would catch up with him sometimes of course but difficult to catch him clean.....add in mayweather excellent chin and i don't see the ko coming.....i do see big points win for hagler



    Hagler from '77 to '82 would have too much even for a slippy Mayweather imho. That Hagler had the speed of hand, foot, and body to catch Mayweather over time, plus he had the tools to put him down once he caught him.

    A peak Mayweather jnr is a world class boxer, one of the best ever at his weight, but his weight is not middleweight and in a peak Hagler he would be against one of the best ever at that weight.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,325 gene_tunney
    ✭✭✭


    I find it very hard to see past Whitaker for GOAT defensive skills.

    Floyd blocks punches but Whitake made you miss entirely. Sweet Pea made JCC look like a fool, and even when he was old and shot he had Oscar De La Hoya punching air.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57,372 walshb
    ✭✭✭✭


    walshb wrote: »




    toney, louis or vitali wouldn't stop toney?

    no way would hagler or hearns stop mayweather.....duran gave hagler fits and he was smaller than mayweather.....

    mayweather might lose but definitely not stopped.....if he goes on defensive nobody can catch him often enough to stop him.....also he has a granite chin.....only ever seen him rocked twice against mosley and corley and he recovered in a second......


    noway mayweather gets stopped at middle...

    i could see louis or tyson stopping toney

    Vit would beat Toney clearly, no way does he stop him. That is just it. I believe an in shape 200 lbs Toney is just too slippy and too cute and ultra tough to ever be stopped. Has never ever came close to being stopped, apart from Lebedev, but Toney today is shambolic. I did say that most of the eliet HW fighters would beat Toney, juts not take him out or embarrass him. He is a born fighter with such great intelligence and innate skills that he does not allow himslef to be dominated, or beaten up. Even the Jones fight, he was beaten, but hardly beaten up. Jones just stayed a step ahead of him all night.

    Adamek, a blown up LH went ten rds with Vit. He is not close to the skill level, defense level of Toney.

    As for Floyd jumping to MW to mmet a peak Hagler; yes, he could make it 12, I doubt it though.

    Hearns at MW would eventually get Floyd and would stop or KO Floyd.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 759 tryingmybestt
    ✭✭✭


    walshb wrote: »

    Vit would beat Toney clearly, no way does he stop him. That is just it. I believe an in shape 200 lbs Toney is just too slippy and too cute and ultra tough to ever be stopped. Has never ever came close to being stopped, apart from Lebedev, but Toney today is shambolic. I did say that most of the eliet HW fighters would beat Toney, juts not take him out or embarrass him. He is a born fighter with such great intelligence and innate skills that he does not allow himslef to be dominated, or beaten up. Even the Jones fight, he was beaten, but hardly beaten up. Jones just stayed a step ahead of him all night.

    Adamek, a blown up LH went ten rds with Vit. He is not close to the skill level, defense level of Toney.

    As for Floyd jumping to MW to mmet a peak Hagler; yes, he could make it 12, I doubt it though.

    Hearns at MW would eventually get Floyd and would stop or KO Floyd.


    Again i ask who did toney fight at heavy??

    vitali absolutely smashed adamek....the ref should have stopped it much earlier

    tyson or louis or dempsey would have a good chance of stopping toney

    toney was never a HW...he only fought at that weight due to his lack of discipline and was therefore out of shape and too heavy for cruiser or light heavy

    i don't think toney is as good a defensive fighter as mayweather as mayweather is more affective

    really can't see floyd being stopped at MW....he could even beat some of them and lose rest on points.....he's too fast and slippery with excellent defence....

    he has perfect style to survive


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 759 tryingmybestt
    ✭✭✭


    Kess73 wrote: »
    Hagler from '77 to '82 would have too much even for a slippy Mayweather imho. That Hagler had the speed of hand, foot, and body to catch Mayweather over time, plus he had the tools to put him down once he caught him.

    A peak Mayweather jnr is a world class boxer, one of the best ever at his weight, but his weight is not middleweight and in a peak Hagler he would be against one of the best ever at that weight.




    i agree totally hagler would dominate floyd but i just can't see the stoppage


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,986 Spazdarn
    ✭✭✭


    Hagler was a ****ing beast, he'd have thrown the kitchen sink at Floyd from the get go. Definitely see a stoppage there...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 131 Lon.C
    ✭✭


    I think Rigondeux is an excellent defensive boxer and very hard to hit. I was really looking forward to the ramos fight until ramos bottled it.
    I feel if they can get this fight sorted, the title will be rigodeuxs' for sure. Then its onwards and upwards for this powerful counter puncher.

    Lon.c


Welcome!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.
Advertisement