Home heating recommendations for TINY house?

sublime1

Hello everyone

I've got a TINY "artisan" terraced cottage in Dublin - it's over 100 years old and never had central heating, just a fireplace and some plug-in electric heaters. It really is tiny - less than 40 m2 - one floor with two tiny bedrooms. I want to put in some central heating but I have 2 main issues:

1. NO room for a boiler
2. very little space for radiators in the rooms

I know feckall about houses and building in general, so I'm basically starting from scratch. Before I go ringing builders looking for quotes, I'd like to know what I should be saying to them. Would you recommend electric, gas or something else? What type of radiators can I use? And of course, as I'm skint, what are my pricing options? If something makes long term sense, then I don't mind paying a little more for it, but my budget is tiny. I'm assuming stuff like underfloor heating is very expensive and a huge messy job.

The other question is: how much ripping the house apart would be done by a job like this? Would it be unliveable in for a week or more? How long roughly would you allow for a job like this?

Any replies gratefully received!

Joey the lips

Is storage heating an option. There is far less ripping apart however cables might have to be surface mounted.

There is some very efficent storage heaters out there.

sublime1

Storage heating wouldn't be my first choice. I had it in an apartment before and didn't like the heat. Also I'd be out all day when most of the heat is emitted.

Are storage heaters the only electric option?

Stove Fan

How about an oil/lpg/gas/ solid fuel stove/ back boiler to run a few rads and hot water?

It could go inset/infront of the fireplace.

Oil or lpg for ease of use or solid fuel if dont mind waiting up to an hour to warm the rads up. I don't know if they make a natural gas fired stove with boiler?

Stove Fan:)

Dardania

You really shouldn't rule out a boiler so quickly - they are the most effective heat source at the moment, and you'll certainly have natural gas available. As you point out, electric is no use if you're out all day...

You could get a small combi boiler like this: http://www.rvr.ie/Product_Groups/0_292_31_33_38/

to supply space & hot water (and it can do the hot water without a storage tank/hot water cylinder presuming you don't need a massive water flow...). This would be suitable for installation into a kitchen cupboard...

for getting the heat out, radiators are the best bet - underfloor i as you say is expensive / messy, and also quite slow to react. I've also heard of studies where it is installed in institutional settings that it causes staff sweaty feet / aches!

Radiators are typically installed where there are most heat losses (i.e. a window) or where you can conveniently fit them otherwise. Also, in your bathroom you could use a towel radiator to save space... and in your sitting room, you could use a gas fire?

Whilst you are talking about installing a heating system, bear in mind passive ways to save energy consumption: insulation & air tightness. There is no point spending loads on a heating system to waste it to the atmosphere... So consider insulation in the attic, and sealing of any opes in walls like around window frames, or where pipes go out...expanding foam is excellent for those jobs. Of course, allow some intentional vents for ventilation as required under building regs

sublime1

Hi Dardania

thanks for that reply - that was very informative. Those boilers really are very small, aren't they? I could probably even fit that into the space beside the old fireplace (now blocked off). I actually don't need a water boiler as I just use an electric shower in the bathroom. There is already a little electric immersion for heating the water in the taps.

So, if I understand what you're recommending, it's:

• get a gas connection into the house
• use this combi boiler to use the gas to heat water for radiators
• also use the gas directly for a gas fire

Good tips re insulation as well.

So what kind of prices and times would you be talking about getting a job like that done in a house of 40m2? I don't think I'd need more than 2 or 3 radiators.

thanks

sublime1

Also, what kind of annual costs do you have with gas vs electric? I mean in terms of maintenance, service etc? Which would need to be replaced first?

JohnnieK

I would probably go with a gas combination boiler something like a Viessmann Vitodens 100w,
I would also fit an outside weather compensation stat to have finer thermal control over the heating and add to the efficiency of the boiler, controlled by a programmable room thermostat. If you do a good job of insulating then if sized correctly the radiators wont be as big and obtrusive as you think.

JohnnieK

sublime1 wrote: »

Also, what kind of annual costs do you have with gas vs electric? I mean in terms of maintenance, service etc? Which would need to be replaced first?

You will need a annual service on a gas boiler which would cost (I've seen as low as €39, doubt it was a proper service for that) to €99 depending who you go with. I'm not sure if there is any servicing on electric storage heaters. Any one I know that have them have never had anything done to them.

If you are think of a gas fire DONT get a decorative fuel effect fire, they are rubbish and cost a fortune on running costs if used regularly. Go for hot box or convector box fire, much more efficient but are quite expensive. And this too will need to be serviced annually, A fire would kill you before a boiler if not maintained correctly.

Dardania

sublime1 wrote: »

Hi Dardania

thanks for that reply - that was very informative. Those boilers really are very small, aren't they? I could probably even fit that into the space beside the old fireplace (now blocked off).

When you're location the boiler, bear in mind that:
You need to get gas pipework to it
Low Pressure Hot Water pipework to/from it to all the radiators (it's best to keep the radiator as the highest point in the system for air venting purposes, so presume the pipework will run low
and an exhaust flue either up through the roof (try not to introduce a leak!) or to an exterior wall.

Also, these things can be a little noisy (they have a pump & a fan) so you don't want it somewhere distracting if watching TV / reading...

sublime1 wrote: »

I actually don't need a water boiler as I just use an electric shower in the bathroom. There is already a little electric immersion for heating the water in the taps.

If you're happy enough with using electric immersion / shower for your hot water needs, you don't need a combi boiler - a simpler system boiler will do the trick. (http://www.rvr.ie/Product_Groups/0_292_31_33_37/) There's a good guide on the different types of boilers here: http://www.rvr.ie/Advice/Homeowners/Condensing_Gas_Boilers/

In terms of cost, it is usually cheaper to use gas for domestic hot water compared to electricity (unless you have an extremely well insulated house where I reckon there is an argument for using nightrate electricity for electric immersion, and having no gas) which is why I suggested a combi boiler - sort out space heating & hot water in one foul swoop (the derivation of combi in the name...)

sublime1 wrote: »

So, if I understand what you're recommending, it's:

• get a gas connection into the house
• use this combi boiler to use the gas to heat water for radiators
• also use the gas directly for a gas fire

Good tips re insulation as well.

So what kind of prices and times would you be talking about getting a job like that done in a house of 40m2? I don't think I'd need more than 2 or 3 radiators.

I wouldn't be great on costs, hopefully others here can help.
You have to consider the gas connection cost (talk to Bord Gais Networks about this: http://www.bordgais.ie/networks/index.jsp?p=190&n=191#first-time)
Supply of the boiler & radiators (The RVR website gives good info on costs: www.rvr.ie - and no I don't work for them - just find them helpful to get advice from!)
Installation of the above including builders work for making opes & resealing/insulating (maybe the plumber will do that also?)

Check out this grant scheme: http://www.seai.ie/Grants/Better_energy_homes/ to see if you can avail?

sublime1 wrote: »

thanks

JohnnieK wrote: »

I would probably go with a gas combination boiler something like a Viessmann Vitodens 100w,
I would also fit an outside weather compensation stat to have finer thermal control over the heating and add to the efficiency of the boiler, controlled by a programmable room thermostat. If you do a good job of insulating then if sized correctly the radiators wont be as big and obtrusive as you think.

Weather compensation is a great efficiency boost, and if taken into account when sizing the radiators, to allow the water return to the boiler below 55 degrees, you can ensure that the boiler works in optimal condensing mode (however this might push the rad sizes up a bit).

SEAI have a list of energy efficient products: http://www.seai.ie/Your_Business/Triple_E_Product_Register/ make sure any boiler is from that...

When getting your house insulated, rather than getting the contractor to install a finite thickness of insulation, agree U values (the parameter to define how much heat passess through a wall or window), as against modern building regulation requirements - this way you can take the insulation performance into account when sizing the radiators. Do you have an attic void to insulate? What are your room dimensions?
This website can help you roughly assess the heat input requirements to each room: http://www.homesupply.co.uk/radiator_output_calculator.php

JohnnieK wrote: »

You will need a annual service on a gas boiler which would cost (I've seen as low as €39, doubt it was a proper service for that) to €99 depending who you go with. I'm not sure if there is any servicing on electric storage heaters. Any one I know that have them have never had anything done to them.

If you are think of a gas fire DONT get a decorative fuel effect fire, they are rubbish and cost a fortune on running costs if used regularly. Go for hot box or convector box fire, much more efficient but are quite expensive. And this too will need to be serviced annually, A fire would kill you before a boiler if not maintained correctly.

I've heard that some of those gas fires can be ropey in terms of heat output - I was suggesting it on space grounds... I have often wondered if there is an easily available radiator that can fit in a typical fireplace - would probably need to be fan assisted - have you ever encountered one?

DGOBS

Just a thought, would air-to-water heat pump be a good option for such a small house?
Or as space seems to be an issue, what about using solo-kickboard type heat emitters?
or, even use oil, firebird are just about to launch a 14/16kw boiler, or Grant do an outside wallmounted thats a similar size, or even an outdoor gas boiler (vokera balcony or similar)....just thinking space saving ideas, or could even have a combi boiler in the attic if space and access permits (not a great option unless installaed very well)

refco

i think you should have a look at an air to air heatpump otherwise known as split type air conditioning unit stick a wall mounted unit up on an external wall and pipe it straight outside no mess work done in a day any mess could be hoovered up job done heating working and very low running cost

DGOBS

Not a bad idea

Bruthal

refco wrote: »

i think you should have a look at an air to air heatpump otherwise known as split type air conditioning unit stick a wall mounted unit up on an external wall and pipe it straight outside no mess work done in a day any mess could be hoovered up job done heating working and very low running cost

That will likely only do 1 room though, well a split unit would anyway.

DGOBS

Surely you can get an air/air heat pump system thats like a mechanical heat recovery unit and can be ducted thought the attic space to all rooms

Bruthal

DGOBS wrote: »

Surely you can get an air/air heat pump system thats like a mechanical heat recovery unit and can be ducted thought the attic space to all rooms

You can, although to pump heat from air outside thats at 0 degrees c, and transfer it to inside house at 20 degrees c would take huge volumes of air over the evaporator outside. It would likely have to be a 3 phase compressor in it as well.

Dardania

robbie7730 wrote: »

DGOBS wrote: »

Surely you can get an air/air heat pump system thats like a mechanical heat recovery unit and can be ducted thought the attic space to all rooms

You can, although to pump heat from air outside thats at 0 degrees c, and transfer it to inside house at 20 degrees c would take huge volumes of air over the evaporator outside. It would likely have to be a 3 phase compressor in it as well.

Could present a significant electrical load (pricey...) Particulary with the acheievable COPs. Also in an older house, using heat recovery ventilation mightn't be optimal as they're so air leaky..

In terms of comfort, I personally don't like the quality of heat emission in air systems... An element of radiant heat is more pleasant I feel...

sublime1

JohnnieK wrote: »

If you are think of a gas fire DONT get a decorative fuel effect fire, they are rubbish and cost a fortune on running costs if used regularly. Go for hot box or convector box fire, much more efficient but are quite expensive. And this too will need to be serviced annually, A fire would kill you before a boiler if not maintained correctly.

Thanks for this advice. To be honest, the only reason I'd go for a gas fire is for the decorative effect, so it's good to know they're not efficient. Radiators are fine for my needs.

sublime1

Dardania wrote: »

When you're location the boiler, bear in mind that:
You need to get gas pipework to it
Low Pressure Hot Water pipework to/from it to all the radiators (it's best to keep the radiator as the highest point in the system for air venting purposes, so presume the pipework will run low
and an exhaust flue either up through the roof (try not to introduce a leak!) or to an exterior wall.

Also, these things can be a little noisy (they have a pump & a fan) so you don't want it somewhere distracting if watching TV / reading...


If you're happy enough with using electric immersion / shower for your hot water needs, you don't need a combi boiler - a simpler system boiler will do the trick. (http://www.rvr.ie/Product_Groups/0_292_31_33_37/) There's a good guide on the different types of boilers here: http://www.rvr.ie/Advice/Homeowners/Condensing_Gas_Boilers/

In terms of cost, it is usually cheaper to use gas for domestic hot water compared to electricity (unless you have an extremely well insulated house where I reckon there is an argument for using nightrate electricity for electric immersion, and having no gas) which is why I suggested a combi boiler - sort out space heating & hot water in one foul swoop (the derivation of combi in the name...)


I wouldn't be great on costs, hopefully others here can help.
You have to consider the gas connection cost (talk to Bord Gais Networks about this: http://www.bordgais.ie/networks/index.jsp?p=190&n=191#first-time)
Supply of the boiler & radiators (The RVR website gives good info on costs: www.rvr.ie - and no I don't work for them - just find them helpful to get advice from!)
Installation of the above including builders work for making opes & resealing/insulating (maybe the plumber will do that also?)

Check out this grant scheme: http://www.seai.ie/Grants/Better_energy_homes/ to see if you can avail?





Weather compensation is a great efficiency boost, and if taken into account when sizing the radiators, to allow the water return to the boiler below 55 degrees, you can ensure that the boiler works in optimal condensing mode (however this might push the rad sizes up a bit).

SEAI have a list of energy efficient products: http://www.seai.ie/Your_Business/Triple_E_Product_Register/ make sure any boiler is from that...

When getting your house insulated, rather than getting the contractor to install a finite thickness of insulation, agree U values (the parameter to define how much heat passess through a wall or window), as against modern building regulation requirements - this way you can take the insulation performance into account when sizing the radiators. Do you have an attic void to insulate? What are your room dimensions?
This website can help you roughly assess the heat input requirements to each room: http://www.homesupply.co.uk/radiator_output_calculator.php



I've heard that some of those gas fires can be ropey in terms of heat output - I was suggesting it on space grounds... I have often wondered if there is an easily available radiator that can fit in a typical fireplace - would probably need to be fan assisted - have you ever encountered one?

Wow, so much great stuff here. THANK YOU! The more I think about it, the more I think I should focus more on insulation, as there is clearly a current problem with that, that no new fancy source of heating is going to resolve. The kitchen/bathroom of the house have one of those horrible felt flat roofs that just leaks all the heat. I'm unsure what can be done about it. My concern also is that the builder I currently use isn't up to date on modern insulation methods.
That grant scheme looks great. I've never been able to get money off for the government for anything before - this could be a first! :-)

sublime1

DGOBS wrote: »

Just a thought, would air-to-water heat pump be a good option for such a small house?
Or as space seems to be an issue, what about using solo-kickboard type heat emitters?
or, even use oil, firebird are just about to launch a 14/16kw boiler, or Grant do an outside wallmounted thats a similar size, or even an outdoor gas boiler (vokera balcony or similar)....just thinking space saving ideas, or could even have a combi boiler in the attic if space and access permits (not a great option unless installaed very well)

Thanks for this message. Unfortunately, without some links to read, I'm not quite sure what you mean. Is it something like this? https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Air_source_heat_pumps

sublime1

One more question: what are my options in terms of electric heating? Is it just storage heaters, or can you get other types of electric heating? I'm a bit put off at the idea of all these holes in the walls and roof I'd need with the gas option!