Live engineering

dav nagle

Who here does it?

PaulBrewer

Used to do loads of it .

dav nagle

I did a gig last night with a 10k rig, it had 8 speakers stacked in 2 groups of 4 and I haven't worked on a rig as big before. As I got into it I realized I was pushing the volumes too high, so am I right in saying that the bigger the rig the smaller the increments you drive the faders??

The bigger the beast the more sensitive it is?

madtheory

I find myself teaching it a lot more than actually doing it these days. O dBu on the fader should come out as "loud enough" in the venue (90dBA would be a rough guideline SPL), otherwise the PA is not set up properly. It's just gain staging. Should be simple...

DamagedTrax

do it sometimes but i really dont enjoy it tbh.

if6was9

Do it a fair amount. Was doing 3-6 gigs a week for the last 2 years until the venue I'd mainly been doing it in closed. Do a gig every week or 2 now with bursts of a few days in a row when I get lucky.

I enjoy it but unless I got in with a band as a touring engineer I wouldn't like to be doing it as often as I used to. Doing that many gigs meant dealing with some very bad bands.

dav nagle

Hey DT how come you don't enjoy it?

The only thing I didn't like was packing the gear up after the show, I said to the guy I would take a pay cut if it meant we could get some russians in to do the heavy work!

krd

dav nagle wrote: »

I did a gig last night with a 10k rig, it had 8 speakers stacked in 2 groups of 4 and I haven't worked on a rig as big before. As I got into it I realized I was pushing the volumes too high, so am I right in saying that the bigger the rig the smaller the increments you drive the faders??

The bigger the beast the more sensitive it is?

I haven't done it. But I've heard - the part of the rig you set for power, once it's set, you don't touch it. It's not sensitive. The sound will jump around, and you will put the band off and cause them to f up.

In fact - once the band is playing you shouldn't be touching the controls unless there's something wrong. There is nothing worse than being on stage and hearing the levels jumping around.

dav nagle

krd wrote: »

I haven't done it. But I've heard - the part of the rig you set for power, once it's set, you don't touch it. It's not sensitive. The sound will jump around, and you will put the band off and cause them to f up.

In fact - once the band is playing you shouldn't be touching the controls unless there's something wrong. There is nothing worse than being on stage and hearing the levels jumping around.

Thats not how it works either

krd

dav nagle wrote: »

Thats not how it works either

If that's not how it works, why don't you say how it is that it does not work that way.

If you're going to try make me look like a dick - you could at least say why.


tells us how it works then Dave

---

Dave "I fff'd up really badly the other night, experimenting with 'I wonder what this button does' "

DamagedTrax

dav nagle wrote: »

Hey DT how come you don't enjoy it?

i enjoying studio work too much i guess. i'd rather be sitting taking 2 hours and 5 cups of tea while deciding on what way to eq a kick drum.

i dont have the temperment for live stuff. its too fast paced for the likes of me. just gets me stressed out

dav nagle

krd wrote: »

If that's not how it works, why don't you say how it is that it does not work that way.

Because if the was the case we would set the levels and go home. Secondly the best gigs I ever did was when I played a solo and the mixing engineer would give me a slight push up.

krd wrote: »

If you're going to try make me look like a dick - you could at least say why.

I am not trying to make you look like a dick at all.

krd wrote: »

tells us how it works then Dave

---

Dave "I fff'd up really badly the other night, experimenting with 'I wonder what this button does' "

Dave who?
Where is your quote coming from Mr.anonymous?

Obi-Jim

Yo,

I do a lot of live stuff. I know what you're saying DT, it's way more fast paced. I think you're quite limited mix-wise too, as in you have to know how everything is going to sound before you go in, ie pre-production. So, if you're with a band, you're recreating a mix rather than creating one there and then. Get the PA sounding as flat as possible and it should sound the same every time. Obviously house engineers with a new band every night have a much different approach/attitude.

If that's not how it works, why don't you say how it is that it does not work that way.

Basically, sound to the stage via monitors is pre fader on a desk, so once the gain is set the stage levels don't change when the fader is moved. Some engineers, will constantly be moving things ever so slightly. Some engineers keep one hand on the vocal fader or vca (aswell as a comp) and use it as a base for their moves. That's what vca's are for on a live desk too, to get all your stuff into one small place on the desk.

I did a gig last night with a 10k rig, it had 8 speakers stacked in 2 groups of 4 and I haven't worked on a rig as big before. As I got into it I realized I was pushing the volumes too high, so am I right in saying that the bigger the rig the smaller the increments you drive the faders??

The bigger the beast the more sensitive it is?

I haven't found that necessarily. I have found that at smaller gigs where sound coming from the stage, amps and drums, that the fader will move up and down a lot more with not so much difference. Once there's enough subs and tops that this isn't an issue, then I think it's the same all the way up pretty much. Also, in some speakers, if there's lots of them, the low mids really start to come in, and when you push say an acoustic or violin, it's low mids really push through and make it so much louder than the bass and kick drum which are really holding the mix down.
But, the bigger the rig, the bigger the headroom, usually. That helps a lot, gives you more control. If you don't have much headroom, it's like mixing into a bad compressor.
And as said above, 0dB on the desk should be the level, 6dB headroom on a good rig. The amps will then be set for volume.

dav nagle

Thanks Obi Jim.

DT it is definitely stressful, I would say if I was using the same rig night after night I would eventually get really good at understanding the desk and more importantly the room. The room I was in was basically a giant square but there was another giant square cut out of the ceiling. I dare not mention the reflection issues.

If there is a square cut out of a square in the ceiling the sound goes up! Not good!

studiorat

I do it quite a bit these days, mostly with acoustic type gigs where the PA needs to be invisible. To the extent of a classical guitar gig recently being a condenser mic and a studio monitor hidden near the musician. I've also been experimenting with surround.

dav nagle

studiorat wrote: »

I do it quite a bit these days, mostly with acoustic type gigs where the PA needs to be invisible. To the extent of a classical guitar gig recently being a condenser mic and a studio monitor hidden near the musician. I've also been experimenting with surround.

Audio Espionage I like it!

krd

dav nagle wrote: »

Because if the was the case we would set the levels and go home.

I've just heard from a few people I knew who were doing it. They would try to get it so they would have to touch very little while the band were playing. Just watch for feedback. But the wouldn't make any major changes while the band were playing.

It's really distracting to hear the levels jump while you're playing.

Secondly the best gigs I ever did was when I played a solo and the mixing engineer would give me a slight push up.

You could hear him do it?

The worst experiences I've ever had while playing has been the sound man playing with the levels while I'm playing. Twice it's been deliberate. Once pure incompetence. I was a school kid - playing guitar and singing. I played a few songs. From the word go he was cutting my mic - up'ing and downing the levels - just non-stop. By the end my voice had cracked to pieces and I was just about in tears.................Now I think of it. I'd say he was doing it deliberately.

GTE

krd wrote: »

The worst experiences I've ever had while playing has been the sound man playing with the levels while I'm playing. Twice it's been deliberate. Once pure incompetence. I was a school kid - playing guitar and singing. I played a few songs. From the word go he was cutting my mic - up'ing and downing the levels - just non-stop. By the end my voice had cracked to pieces and I was just about in tears.................Now I think of it. I'd say he was doing it deliberately.

The levels can change depending on the mixer but what you described does sound fishy. The downside to my desk if Im ever asked to do live sound as a favour (I share DamagedTrax's sentiment on live sound) I have to contend with two aux sends being pre and two being post. Cant do anything about it except put the least important monitors on 3 and 4.

What is the opinion of the live sounders here regarding level?
I hate loud gigs and if I was doing a full band live gig I would probably keep things lower then most of the live engineers I whose work I have experienced.

madtheory

bbk wrote: »

What is the opinion of the live sounders here regarding level?
I hate loud gigs and if I was doing a full band live gig I would probably keep things lower then most of the live engineers I whose work I have experienced.

I tend to keep it low too. Around 90dBA at FOH, so we're both deeply unfashionable.

Live sound is crap 80% of the time. The biggest problem is lazy venues with poor/ old PAs, badly positioned cabs and no acoustic treatment. Most of the time the poor engineer is fighting an uphill battle.

MilanPan!c

I did live sound for years. I didn't really like it, but as I only worked with bands I knew it was a lot more rewarding than being a house guy.

We're on the look out for a live engineer, but so far everyone we've worked with has been pretty uninspiring. Fact.

I would also second that most of the PAs in Dublin, that we've seen at least, are pretty atrocious. I found that pretty surprising.

Funny story: we played a well known local venue recently. During the soundcheck the singer asked for more vocals in her monitor. The sound guy just looked back at her and said, "no."

He also wasn't at the desk for about 75% of the gig.

A Fri night at a known venue.

[shakes head]

Obi-Jim

madtheory wrote: »

Live sound is crap 80% of the time. The biggest problem is lazy venues with poor/ old PAs, badly positioned cabs and no acoustic treatment. Most of the time the poor engineer is fighting an uphill battle.

That's Ireland in a nutshell right there. I remember doing a gig a long while ago where the whole PA cost €800, desk and all, and the room was crap. The engineer was a nice guy and well intentioned (and brought a couple of extra speakers), but it's never going to work out well, never mind how you would want it to.

It's a shame though, a few small improvements here and there in some venues and they could sound pretty good.
Generally the bigger/better the venue and PA, the quieter it can be. You'll never have the head ripped off you or ears mashed in vicar street. I don't like it loud. If a PA is set up right and desk positioned right (which is rare), then the engineers position should be perfect volume for enjoyment.
Ireland is quite limited with regard medium/large venues and most of the standard places are pretty poor and even the good ones have their problems. But you do a gig, take note and you'll do it quicker and better next time, then keep going back.

And krd, with problems like that, poor gigs, poor desks, poor speakers, no soundcheck, no sound man (well, a babysitter), it's to be expected that they don't have enough pre fade auxiliaries, or proper setup for it to work well. It's just the nature of gigging in Ireland. The bigger you go, the easier it gets for everyone.

Milan, you have just described house engineer syndrome, in Dublin. Let's not speculate at the obvious clues you gave

PMI

Do it everynight, but for us only......I would never engineer another band.

madtheory

Obi-Jim wrote: »

That's Ireland in a nutshell right there.

Add to that: no/ disgusting changing room, no three phase, no/bad food, no proper stage with a side entrance, busy bar close to stage.

krd

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Funny story: we played a well known local venue recently. During the soundcheck the singer asked for more vocals in her monitor. The sound guy just looked back at her and said, "no."

He also wasn't at the desk for about 75% of the gig.

A Fri night at a known venue.

[shakes head]

Not saying I was there - just if I was there, it might have explained some other mysteries of the sound on the night.