What makes you a professional musician?

off.the.walls

Just thought this was going to be a fun discussion so DISCUSS!!

My opinion its the ability to make money off your skills.

sundodger5

yep i get paid, by definition that makes me proffesional.
some would argue that i'm sure.

PCPhoto

what makes a professional anything ? ... a willingness for people to pay for them.

when the majority of your money is earned from the "profession" then you are a professional.

Duke Leonal Felmet

I have met plenty of lazy and useless musicians who get paid plenty playing in lazy and useless wedding bands.

To me, a professional musician is someone who dedicates his/her life to the craft, full-time. There are a few meanings to the term, I guess. But simply earning money isn't enough, for me. Anyone can do that.

off.the.walls

Yes but you could dedicate your entire life to music only to look back and say, jaysus i was really poor why didnt i do business?

So the real question is, is it just the ability to make money or is it the ability to wow a audience with your talent and make them want to pay for your entertainment?

Duke Leonal Felmet

off.the.walls wrote: »

Yes but you could dedicate your entire life to music only to look back and say, jaysus i was really poor why didnt i do business?

So the real question is, is it just the ability to make money or is it the ability to wow a audience with your talent and make them want to pay for your entertainment?

Yeah, I think thats what I was saying. But many, many poor musicians make a living playing tat to drunken wedding guests who cant tell the difference. They make a killing doing this, and many are rubbish. For example, I saw a guitarist at a wedding playing the famous guitar lick from Claptons 'Beautiful Tonight' and he wasn't even bending the notes, as if it was on piano (they were awful at everything, not just this). I bet they made around 1500 for it too. Are they professional musicians? Perhaps in the strictest sense, yes. But you need to be professional in the work ethic sense too, surely? Any fool with a guitar can make money.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

off.the.walls wrote: »

So the real question is, is it just the ability to make money or is it the ability to wow a audience with your talent and make them want to pay for your entertainment?

if any band is able to do that, they are onto a winner. Everything else comes with experience

Rigsby

According to Collin's dictionary :

Professional :

1. Very competent

2. Taking part in an activity such as sport or music for money.

A profession on the other hand is given as " a type of work that requires special training".


These definitions don't hold true in a lot of musical situations if a person is to meet all the criteria. My guess is that the majority of payed musicians in your average gigging Dublin band have little or no "special training".


FWIW, my idea of a professional musician is a person who makes a living playing any type of music from Bach to Boyzone and everything in between. In order to do this, he/she is able to sight read on the fly. They have a professional attitude which makes them reliable and dedicated. IMO a top class studio session musician is someone who ticks all the boxes here.

How many of these "professionals" do you know ?

Savman

Rigsby wrote: »

In order to do this, he/she is able to sight read on the fly.

Nope, that's usually a classical musician. Goes to show you how relevant your opinion is when there's absolutely horrendous guys out there who would consider themselves professional simply because they are renumerated for their services. Technically, it's hard to argue anything to the contrary, simple 'supply + demand' economics tbh.

Idealism/Realism, choose one.

off.the.walls

But supply and demand will always be a factor where money is involved, if there is no money involved its a hobby not a profession!

Duke Leonal Felmet

off.the.walls wrote: »

But supply and demand will always be a factor where money is involved, if there is no money involved its a hobby not a profession!

Is it not possible for volunteers to be described as 'professional'? I think a solely monetary interpretation of the word is insufficient.

off.the.walls

People who voulenteers are mostly looking to gain experience in the field i'm not saying that their not knowledgeable but i would argue that they are not up to a standard where they'd be professionals either.

Fandango

Many different ways to look at it. People who are running their own company may be making a loss but its still their profession and would be considered a professional at their work. They are doing what they do with a view to making money so may be called professional but so are many hurrendous musicians so hard to say there. There are also many professional footballers etc who play in tiny leagues and would be considered hurrendous by the majority of the footballing world yet, they are seen as professional footballers. Simple fact here is, they are getting paid, theyre professional.

Personally i would see it as if you are getting paid and making a living at your art and also consider it your work, you are professional.

If you are actively looking to get paid or getting paid but not making a living from it and consider it your work, you are semi-professional.

If you are not actively looking to be paid and consider it a hobby, you are an amateur.

My opinion anyway but obviously others will vary.

Fandango

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Is it not possible for volunteers to be described as 'professional'? I think a solely monetary interpretation of the word is insufficient.

Well, look at the top GAA players in this country. They are the most skilled people on the planet at their sport but are still amateur sportsmen and not professional.

Rigsby

Savman wrote: »

Nope, that's usually a classical musician.

Why only a classical musician ? Are you saying that they are generally the only musicians who need to be able to read ?


What about the core band ( which included the iconic bassists Carol Kaye and James Jamerson) who played on all the Motown hits ? They would not have been hired if they could not read.

Take jazz for instance. Top class session studio musicians are often called in on short notice to record an album for a famous jazz artist. How do you think this artist conveys to the other musicians what he wants ?

It happens in rock too. The band "Steely Dan" use a lot of session musicians. The leaders of the band are very particular about their music being played exactly as it is written (written being the operative word ).



BTW, people calling themselves professional and actually being one are two different things, which most people can differentiate between.

off.the.walls

Fandango wrote: »

Well, look at the top GAA players in this country. They are the most skilled people on the planet at their sport but are still amateur sportsmen and not professional.

But in Ireland GAA is a professional sport its only the world stage that doesn't really consider it professional.

Fandango

off.the.walls wrote: »

But in Ireland GAA is a professional sport its only the world stage that doesn't really consider it professional.

Its considered an amateur sport here also. There was uproar between the Gaelic Players Association and the GAA a few years back over whether to pay players but was decided against as they wanted to keep the sport amateur.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Fandango wrote: »

Its considered an amateur sport here also. There was uproar between the Gaelic Players Association and the GAA a few years back over whether to pay players but was decided against as they wanted to keep the sport amateur.

So amateur means they (lets say Henry Sheflin, arguably one of the greatest hurlers ever) are not as fit and technically gifted as, say, a premiership footballer?

What does amateur mean to you?

theboat

Savman wrote: »

Nope, that's usually a classical musician.

This isn't true at all. The majority of freelance/session musicians read music. They have to, or they wouldn't get work. Stuff like recording, playing musicals, playing with large bands and playing with tracks, as well as playing classical all require the ability to read.

In my opinion, if you're making your living out of music, you're a professional. Ideally, you should also have a 'professional' approach, but unfortunately, like in every other job, there are people who get away with a much lower standard of work (such as the wedding band mentioned above), yet still get paid the same. I don't think this makes them any less a professional, because it's still their bread and butter. They just don't really deserve to be making any money out of it.

Sergio

In my opinion professionalism is all about ones attitude at the end of the day.If someone is very good in whatever they do whether it is playing music for money or just volunteering then i think its someones attention to detail and positive attitude and willingness to get on in life which to me describes the real meaning to the term.

Fandango

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

So amateur means they (lets say Henry Sheflin, arguably one of the greatest hurlers ever) are not as fit and technically gifted as, say, a premiership footballer?

What does amateur mean to you?

Oh lord! Read back over my first comment. I said that the top GAA players are the best on the planet at their sport but as they do not get paid or earn a living from it, they are amateur players. I also said there are professional footballers that would be considered rubbish by the wider footballing world but earn a living playing the game so are professional footballers. At no point did i mention fitness or ability, in fact im making the opposite point in that they are as gifted and talented as professional sportsmen but as they dont earn a living from it, they are amateur. Step back, breadth and read the entire thread first.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Fandango wrote: »

Oh lord! Read back over my first comment. I said that the top GAA players are the best on the planet at their sport but as they do not get paid or earn a living from it, they are amateur players. I also said there are professional footballers that would be considered rubbish by the wider footballing world but earn a living playing the game so are professional footballers. At no point did i mention fitness or ability, in fact im making the opposite point in that they are as gifted and talented as professional sportsmen but as they dont earn a living from it, they are amateur. Step back, breadth and read the entire thread first.

I was perfectly calm, I just misread your post. Happens a million times a day, in fora all over the globe.

Anyway, this was boring long ago. Im done.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

Fandango wrote: »

If you are actively looking to get paid or getting paid but not making a living from it and consider it your work, you are semi-professional.

That is what I would class myself as, but its not my "work"! my 9-5 is my career and has to come first! The band pays for most of my rent though, which is great