If Ireland is forced to alter its CT rate

oppenheimer1

Will it change your perception of the EU and sway your likely vote in future EU referenda?

(Can't seem to add a poll to this)

ei.sdraob

Yes it will change my opinion

If the EU leaders are stupid enough to push this economy over the edge for their own agenda, then that's a union Ireland should not be part of.

edit: kicking us in the balls while we are down is not honourable

Inquitus

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Yes it will change my opinion

If the EU leaders are stupid enough to push this economy over the edge for their own agenda, then that's a union Ireland should not be part of.

I agree with this sentiment, we would need to remain part of the EU, but certainly we would need to put the brakes on any further integration and any vote associated with that.

Mister men

There will be nobody left in the country to vote in a few years if the CT rate is changed.

xkariex

Inquitus wrote: »

I agree with this sentiment, we would need to remain part of the EU, but certainly we would need to put the brakes on any further integration and any vote associated with that.

THen we be even more ****ed, if it wasn't for the EU we be worse off !!

keithclancy

Maybe people will turn off the 42 Inch LCD with Sky HD and get up off their arses to vote next time.

RichardAnd

I've never trusted the EU nor have I seen it as something that will last. Europeans have never been able to get along with each other, we're just too different in terms of culture, society and ideology. I firmly believe that we are seeing the twilight times of the once mighty European Union.

As to CT tax, I don't know if it will change but I know well that the big boys in Europe (France and Germany) want it raised. These guys aren't fools, they know that a CT tax of 25% will see a flight of MNC's from ireland which will put thousands out of work, cause tax intakes to fall greatly and make it all but impossible for us to recover.

Yet, knowing this, they still want it raised. They might say that this is to keep us in line with europe but I actually think it's a spiteful, malicious move by their politicians to hammer us into line and let us know who's boss. This is good old european politics at work again. To them it a case of punishing the upstart paddies and making sure we know our place.

As ei.sdraob said, this "union" is something we should not be apart of.

rumour

Bit late to be thinking like that now!!!

However I do think it would be an act of idiocy on behalf of the EU if the pursue this. That would further risk not securing their loans.

That said the funding we are supposedly availing of is politically controlled. Our politicians are dumb, but look at the EU looking for wage hikes when the populace of Europe have to swallow austerity. It is conceivable but I do think unlikely politics will come ahead of practicalities.All politics is local.

Anyway crisis provide great opportunities for money. After we have been thouroughly humiliated and are up to as far as is practicable in national debt(nations have armies and police forces, i.e security)the markets will move to Portugal and then wherever else they can prey.

Ultimately I think they will end up attacking the lavish social bills of France and Germany. It will be interesting to see over the next few years.

LookingFor

I've been completely pro-EU in all referenda I've been able to vote in to date.

But yes, depending on what was at question, it would change how I vote in the future. And they couldn't suggest it was an IMF thing if it did happen - they've come out and said they won't be an imposition on the corporate tax rate.

All that said, I actually do think it's unlikely it'll be affected. If there's one last thing I want to believe this government on, it's that the rate is non-negotiable.

oppenheimer1

I've always considered myself pro-european, however if we're forced to take a medicine that will cripple us to appease the french and the germans, then I don't think I will ever vote yes to a treaty change again. Lisbon was vote yes for jobs, it would be a awful if our european partners took action that had the opposite effect.

I don't think I'd be alone in my thinking either, and a treaty vote is coming up in the next few years. (Accession of Croatia)

We've put up with a lot over the past few years but it would definitely get me out on the street if that was what turns out to happen, even it is protesting to save the profits of large MNC's

keithclancy

RichardAnd wrote: »

I've never trusted the EU nor have I seen it as something that will last. Europeans have never been able to get along with each other, we're just too different in terms of culture, society and ideology. I firmly believe that we are seeing the twilight times of the once mighty European Union.

As to CT tax, I don't know if it will change but I know well that the big boys in Europe (France and Germany) want it raised. These guys aren't fools, they know that a CT tax of 25% will see a flight of MNC's from ireland which will put thousands out of work, cause tax intakes to fall greatly and make it all but impossible for us to recover.

Yet, knowing this, they still want it raised. They might say that this is to keep us in line with europe but I actually think it's a spiteful, malicious move by their politicians to hammer us into line and let us know who's boss. This is good old european politics at work again. To them it a case of punishing the upstart paddies and making sure we know our place.

As ei.sdraob said, this "union" is something we should not be apart of.

Live in a European country and come back to me after you've done that.

Most of this stuff isnt even on the radar in alot of Germany (Certainly the area I work)

Germany has its own problems,otherwise its economy is performing quite well.

The French are always on strike .. seems to be a national pastime.

Belgium doesnt even have a government ffs ..

Moogintroll

LookingFor wrote: »

If there's one last thing I want to believe this government on, it's that the rate is non-negotiable.

The very fact that they are saying this has me very worried.

I'm a huge europhile but if they screw with us on this then I'm voting no on every future referendum. We're a small country with not a lot going for us, forcing us to raise the corporation tax would be a serious dick move.

wylo

Ive been a yes voter, but I would definitely be voting against anything 'European' in the future if it came to that, which it wont id say.

DiscoStu

A chronically depressed irish economy servicing another mountain of debt foisted on it by the eu while still requiring money for the zombie banking system is certainly not the outcome wanted by anyone pushing the bailout.

The stability of the euro is, or at least should be the only concern of the negotiations. Everyone involved is most assuredly aware that Ireland has the nuclear option. If Ireland walks away contagion will spread to portugal and then spain and the euro sinks. Or we drop the banks, default and the euro sinks. Both choices are on par with kicking fdi out of the country so what do we have to loose bringing the big guns to the table. A hard push on CT will result in FF walking, I'm almost certain.

Sea Sharp

If the EU make us raise CT then to hell with them.
The country will collapse. There will be absolutely no chance what so ever of us being able to repay our debt.

It would castrate our economy and we'd be looking at something like 95% of mortgages defaulting, which is a hell of a lot of money that is owed to European banks. I just can't see it happening.

Forcing us to raise CT could very well trigger the collapse of the Euro, whether or not we accept the deal.

wylo

Along of scaremongering here, getting angry over a hypothetical situation that doesnt look like is going to happen at all whatsoever.

ei.sdraob

wylo wrote: »

Along of scaremongering here, getting angry over a hypothetical situation that doesnt look like is going to happen at all whatsoever.

No? then why is it on the front-page of the Financial Times

Liam Byrne

Well considering that FF have run us into the ground and been unable to manage the country's finances even with the "advantage" of the lower tax rate, I can see why Europe might want us to ensure that our "competitive advantage" isn't based on an unsustainable footing.

That said, I would hope that they will sort out the waste and expenses and cronyism FIRST and THEN look at ways to raise the level of revenue that SHOULD be required to run the country properly.

rumour

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That said, I would hope that they will sort out the waste and expenses and cronyism FIRST and THEN look at ways to raise the level of revenue that SHOULD be required to run the country properly.

Well considering they almost doubled the cost of running the country with wages and personnel in the last ten years, I don't think raising revenue for either of the above will give you what you are looking for.

Liam Byrne

rumour wrote: »

Well considering they almost doubled the cost of running the country with wages and personnel in the last ten years, I don't think raising revenue for either of the above will give you what you are looking for.

Hence my statement that they need to get rid of all the waste and cronyism FIRST.

wylo

ei.sdraob wrote: »

No? then why is it on the front-page of the Financial Times

fair enough, i take back what I said, I didnt realise it was going that far, im going to read the article now, I need to register though.

EDIT:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/411e7e9a-f344-11df-a4fa-00144feab49a.html#axzz15gPPe6ma



Irish showdown over corporate tax

By Peter Spiegel in Brussels, Gerrit Wiesmann in Berlin and Ben Hall in Paris

Published: November 18 2010 18:53 | Last updated: November 18 2010 20:29

French and German officials are pressing Ireland to increase its low corporate tax rate in return for an aid package, setting the stage for a showdown over a policy long resented by Dublin’s European partners.

Ireland views the corporate tax rate, set at 12.5 per cent, as the cornerstone of its industrial policy. On Thursday Irish officials reiterated their determination to protect it. “It’s non-negotiable,” Mary Coughlan, the deputy prime minister, told parliament.

French, German and European officials told the Financial Times that the tax rate had emerged as a major point of contention as negotiators from the European Union and International Monetary Fund arrived in Dublin to discuss a potential bail-out.

One European official involved in the talks said that the corporate tax increase would be a casus belli with the Irish, and that Dublin’s strident objections could well keep it out of any final package.

Irish officials are convinced there are other measures they can take to rein in the deficit. European officials do not think Dublin has many alternatives.

A French official said that the low corporate tax rate was seen by some elsewhere in Europe as “almost predatory”. “They need lots of money and we note they have a corporation tax rate that is very low,” the official said. “Supply must follow demand.”

“Without an increase in tax intake, the deficit can’t be reined in,” added a German government official, though he added that the size of any corporate tax increase had yet to be discussed. “That depends on [Ireland’s] financing needs, which are still unclear.”

The standoff demonstrates how politically explosive the negotiations have become, with Ireland fiercely defending its sovereignty and potential lenders seeking concrete assurances that their aid will be repaid. Ireland’s central bank governor said Dublin was “definitely likely” to ask for a loan totalling “tens of billions” of euros.

“We’re an island nation in a larger grouping [of nations],” said Danny McCoy, head of IBEC, the Irish business lobby. “We set up our [tax] structures in a way that facilitates our people to do the best for themselves. That’s true sovereignty. And to put pressure on us to change is ill-advised. It will not help us solve the problem. It certainly won’t put the bond markets at ease.”

Olli Rehn, the EU’s top economic official, has implied that he backs a corporate tax rise, saying Ireland should no longer consider itself a low-tax nation.

“The IMF, ECB and European Commission must realise that any increase in our corporation tax rate would ultimately make us more economically dependent, not less so on our European Union partners,” said Peter Keegan, Ireland country head for Bank of America Merrill Lynch.

Additional reporting by Tony Barber and John Murray Brown in Dublin and Robin Harding in Washington

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2010. You may share using our article tools. Please don't cut articles from FT.com and redistribute by email or post to the web.

oppenheimer1

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Hence my statement that they need to get rid of all the waste and cronyism FIRST.

Not really the issue of this thread. How will your perception of the EU change (if at all) if they force a rise of CT on us?

ei.sdraob

Maybe the CT "issue" is being used by FF to make themselves appear good and force thru' other concessions?

Bear with me please..

* EU/IMF know that raising CT would be highly counter-productive and unpopular as last remaining healthy bit of economy burns up in flames, they might not actually have intentions of touching this (not in short/medium term anyways)
* FF put on a show of a "fight" with those evil people trying to help us
* Other concessions are made but go unnoticed while we all have a sigh of relief about CT

What yee think?

Liam Byrne

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Not really the issue of this thread. How will your perception of the EU change (if at all) if they force a rise of CT on us?

See my original reply. I can certainly understand it, because Europe will be footing the bill for FF's unsustainable excesses.

Why should they subsidise a country that can't survive with an artificially low tax rate ?

I've also said elsewhere that if CT is raised to equalise taxes that illegal taxes like VRT and other disincentives to competitiveness should be gotten rid of - if they're going to level the playing field they should do so across the board.

oppenheimer1

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Maybe the CT "issue" is being used by FF to make themselves appear good and force thru' other concessions?

Bear with me please..

* EU/IMF know that raising CT would be highly counter-productive and unpopular as last remaining healthy bit of economy burns up in flames, they might not actually have intentions of touching this (not in short/medium term anyways)
* FF put on a show of a "fight" with those evil people trying to help us
* Other concessions are made but go unnoticed while we all have a sigh of relief about CT

What yee think?

Your version of CT stands for conspiracy theory?

wylo

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Maybe the CT "issue" is being used by FF to make themselves appear good and force thru' other concessions?

Bear with me please..

* EU/IMF know that raising CT would be highly counter-productive and unpopular as last remaining healthy bit of economy burns up in flames, they might not actually have intentions of touching this (not in short/medium term anyways)
* FF put on a show of a "fight" with those evil people trying to help us
* Other concessions are made but go unnoticed while we all have a sigh of relief about CT

What yee think?

well possible, but its not FF that are bringing up the topic of CT is it? Unless its a completely staged fight by both teams and they are all in together.
Brian: "You say we need to raise CT","Ill say no","media will throw a sh1t storm", "everyone will get patriotic and back FF", "You say fair enough dont raise CT", "Everyones happy"
IMF: "Ok, but you must cut 30% from PS wages and dole"
Brian: "Yea yea whatever, they wont notice"

Bit over the top i think.

ei.sdraob

wylo wrote: »

well possible, but its not FF that are bringing up the topic of CT is it? Unless its a completely staged fight by both teams and they are all in together. I somehow doubt that though.

Hmm yes I might be giving them too much credit,
just cant shake of the evil smile on Lenihams's face coming out of the meeting with all the finance ministers.

Its just usually times like this are good times to release other bad news since they wont get too much attention, witness today NAMA saying the banks lied to them and should be investigated by Gardai, and barely a mention on the news of this event, its all IMF this EU that