End Times

bakkiesbotha

Firstly, this is not any kind of challenge to anyone's beliefs.

Nor is it a thread about eschatological differences. I have read Revelation quite thoroughly and am aware that the precise sequence of events is a thorny issue.

It is more that I would, respectfully, like to know, on a personal level, whether Christians see the End Times clearly in their minds as something they are moving towards.

In short, do Christians see themselves living through the events of the resurrection from the dead, 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls, the arrival of the beast, the false prophet, Armageddon, and at the end of it all, living in the New Jerusalem for all eternity?

I am aware that there are different churches with different views on this, but basically, as a Christian, are the End Times foremost in your mind, or are you more focused on the here and now? And if the End Times are foremost in your mind, what are you looking forward to the most?

PDN

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

Firstly, this is not any kind of challenge to anyone's beliefs.

Nor is it a thread about eschatological differences. I have read Revelation quite thoroughly and am aware that the precise sequence of events is a thorny issue.

It is more that I would, respectfully, like to know, on a personal level, whether Christians see the End Times clearly in their minds as something they are moving towards.

In short, do Christians see themselves living through the events of the resurrection from the dead, 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls, the arrival of the beast, the false prophet, Armageddon, and at the end of it all, living in the New Jerusalem for all eternity?

I am aware that there are different churches with different views on this, but basically, as a Christian, are the End Times foremost in your mind, or are you more focused on the here and now? And if the End Times are foremost in your mind, what are you looking forward to the most?

I'm looking forward to the Return of Christ, but right now I'm focused on the here and now.

Puck

Pretty much the same as PDN really, I look forward to Christ's return and God setting everything right, making all things new. However I don't know when that will happen and I may be long dead before it does. I am focussed on the day to day journey, putting one foot in front of the other in my walk with God.

Soul Winner

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

It is more that I would, respectfully, like to know, on a personal level, whether Christians see the End Times clearly in their minds as something they are moving towards.

Definitely moving towards.

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

In short, do Christians see themselves living through the events of the resurrection from the dead, 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls, the arrival of the beast, the false prophet, Armageddon, and at the end of it all, living in the New Jerusalem for all eternity?

I believe as a Christian I am part of the body of Christ and as such I will not be subject to the wrath of God when it comes time for Him to pour it out on this world, as long as I stay connected by faith, which means I don't believe I will live through the viles, trumpets etc. Christ bore God's wrath on Himself once, and once is enough otherwise His death wasn't adequate enough to blot out sin. I believe there is good scriptural support for taking the stand that the Rapture of the Church comes before God's wrath is poured out because the Church is the body of Christ and His body is struck once as typified in the Old Testament when Moses after being told to speak to the Rock strikes it a second time, a sin for which God punished him by not allowing him enter the promised land with the people. And Paul in the NT actually calls this Rock Christ. Paul also talks about some kind of force which must be taken out of the way before the man of sin can be revealed, I believe this force is the Church. Revelation chapters 2 and 3 deal primarily with the Churches and what seems to be a rapture type event happens in chapter 4 when John (the only representative of Church on the isle of Patmos at the time) is called up hither into heaven where he is shown events which must take place after that, and it is only when Christ returns later in Revelation do we see the Church again, this time with Christ adorned as a bride.

In between that time God is dealing primarily the Jew. I believe that this period of time is the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy which he received form the angel Gabriel which stated that 70 weeks of years (70 X 7 year periods = 490 years) are determined on his people. His people were the Jews. This is a really lengthy discussion but you can see from scripture that the 69 weeks of years (483 years) have already been fulfilled. Because the prophecy states that from the going forth of the edict to re-build Jerusalem till Messiah is cut off will a period of 69 weeks of years. God left off dealing with the Jew after Messiah was cut off and has been dealing with the Church ever since that time. Once the Church age has come to an end (the Rapture) He goes back to finish off His dealings with Jew and that is this period of 7 years tribulation also known as The Tribulation the Great Tribulation because it is tribulation from God Himself. It is also the fulfillment of the Feast (set time of the LORD) of Atonement (affliction of soul). The world which rejects the Atonement which was wrought in the death of Christ will be afflicted during this time.

The key verse in the book of Revelation is in chapter 1:19

"Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things..” Rev 1:19

John writes the things which he has seen in chapter one. He writes the things which are in chapters 2 and 3 namely the churches, and from chapter 4 onwards to the end of the book the things which must take place after these things, including some parentheses in heaven in between. In chapter 4 he is called up to heaven in order to be shown the things which must take place after these things. So when you take it in broad strokes you have the book divided into past, present and future events, the future events starting from chapter 4 onwards, during which time the church is never mentioned except when she returns with the bridegroom –Christ Himself.

Like I said there are loads of good reasons to believe that the Rapture takes place before this time of tribulation and I can explain in more detail why I believe the above if you like, but I’ll leave it that for now.

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

I am aware that there are different churches with different views on this, but basically, as a Christian, are the End Times foremost in your mind, or are you more focused on the here and now? And if the End Times are foremost in your mind, what are you looking forward to the most?

I live by faith as best I can on a daily basis and I try to have the upward look as much as possible and to focus more on Christ than on myself or on the world. As you can probably guess I have a particular affinity with last day events and find the prophecies in scripture to be mind boggling in their scope. I feel a good understanding of prophetic events is helped enormously when you understand God’s promises to His people the Jew and the House of Israel particularly Ephraim and Manasseh, His dealings with them as a people through Moses and David. Also the Feasts days or Set Times of the Lord. Without a solid foundational knowledge in these areas it is impossible to put last day events into any kind of logical context. I don't claim to understand every single detail but I feel a careful study into the aforementioned areas will show that God is indeed faithful to His Word and what He says will come to pass.

bakkiesbotha

making mess of trying to quote here

bakkiesbotha

I'm looking forward to the Return of Christ, but right now I'm focused on the here and now.

Pretty much the same as PDN really, I look forward to Christ's return and God setting everything right, making all things new. However I don't know when that will happen and I may be long dead before it does. I am focussed on the day to day journey, putting one foot in front of the other in my walk with God.

And do you see it that you will get one-on-one time with Jesus - i.e. that you will sit down and chat with Him on a regular basis - or will he be more like a beloved president, someone you worship and adore, but from something of a distance?

Soul Winner

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

And do you see it that you will get one-on-one time with Jesus - i.e. that you will sit down and chat with Him on a regular basis - or will he be more like a beloved president, someone you worship and adore, but from something of a distance?

Well to allow us to sit upon His throne would mean that we get pretty close and to give us a new name that only we and He knows is to get pretty personal. So yeah I have to submit that it will be pretty close dealings for everyone there. Plus it will take place in eternity so He'll eventually be able to get around to us all at some stage

prinz

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

....as a Christian, are the End Times foremost in your mind, or are you more focused on the here and now?

Personally I would believe it would be my duty to worry about the here and not and not to be obsessed with the end times, rapture etc. If they come they come, nothing I will do is going to alter that fact.

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

....And if the End Times are foremost in your mind, what are you looking forward to the most?

Meeting some trappist monks and setting up a brewery

bakkiesbotha

Soul Winner wrote: »

The key verse in the book of Revelation is in chapter 1:19

"Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things..” Rev 1:19

But what about:

"And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not." Rev 10:4

Anyway thanks for the detailed response. I know some of your interpretations are a bit contentious but that is not for me to get into.

In short, you believe that the Rapture will take place - where your body, dead or alive, will be called up to God. Then the tribulation takes place - these are the 7 seals, 7 vials etc - affecting those who were not called up as part of the Rapture. All the other events of Revelation - armageddon etc., will only affect those still on earth, alive or dead. When it is all over, some of those who were originally left behind will get to join you, and you will all live in the New Jerusalem with Christ.

So if you saw definitive signs that this was all starting to happen tomorrow, would this be a joyous moment for you?

Soul Winner

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

But what about:

"And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not." Rev 10:4

Well I don't know what the seven thurnders represent due to the fact that John was explicity told not to write about them, so I can't rightly comment on them.

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

Anyway thanks for the detailed response. I know some of your interpretations are a bit contentious but that is not for me to get into.

They are indeed, and they might turn out to be wrong in the end but that is how I understand last day events and it is all based on what has been revealed to us in the Scripture.

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

In short, you believe that the Rapture will take place - where your body, dead or alive, will be called up to God. Then the tribulation takes place - these are the 7 seals, 7 vials etc - affecting those who were not called up as part of the Rapture. All the other events of Revelation - armageddon etc., will only affect those still on earth, alive or dead. When it is all over, some of those who were originally left behind will get to join you, and you will all live in the New Jerusalem with Christ.

That pretty much sums it up. I would add that we are the New Jerusalem but again that is a contentious subject for some as are all subjects which reveal hidden truths about God due to the adversary's methods which always cause confusion.

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

So if you saw definitive signs that this was all starting to happen tomorrow, would this be a joyous moment for you?

Joyous in the sense that it signifies that Satan's rule over this world is coming to an end and that we will become like Jesus, perfect in every dimension having put on His immortality and that there will be no more pain, death or suffering. How could you not be joyous about that?

BrianCalgary

I believe that the end times are near at hand, yet my job is to serve Christ today.
I dont worry about the end as it will come when it does.

I look forward to having a chat with Jesus about all the questions I have. I look forwqrd to chatting with Christians past and present and future. About their lives and struggles.

Plus I look forward to playing a little football with some of the Brazilians and Leggrotaglie.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

wolfsbane

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

Firstly, this is not any kind of challenge to anyone's beliefs.

Nor is it a thread about eschatological differences. I have read Revelation quite thoroughly and am aware that the precise sequence of events is a thorny issue.

It is more that I would, respectfully, like to know, on a personal level, whether Christians see the End Times clearly in their minds as something they are moving towards.

In short, do Christians see themselves living through the events of the resurrection from the dead, 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls, the arrival of the beast, the false prophet, Armageddon, and at the end of it all, living in the New Jerusalem for all eternity?

I am aware that there are different churches with different views on this, but basically, as a Christian, are the End Times foremost in your mind, or are you more focused on the here and now? And if the End Times are foremost in your mind, what are you looking forward to the most?

I suspect it is near the End - the gospel has went to all the world is the one big test. Possible indicators are the return of Israel to the land and the ability for mass communication.

I believe Christians will go through the Tribulation and those who survive will meet Christ on His return - but not before the dead Christians are raised to accompany them.

We will then be with the Lord forever, knowing what is now inexpressible communion with the triune God, the holy angels and one another. That is what I look forward to the most.

I focus on both my present duty and on the blessed hope of Christ's return - the former would be impossible without the latter, and the latter would be an idler's dream without the former.

santing

I grew up in a home that had a sign in the hall "Maybe Today." I've always liked it. Maybe the Lord is coming today, what a joy! At the same time I grew up with a common sense attitude. The Lord Jesus in a parable says "Do business ... till I come" (Luke 19:13)

Martin Luther is supposed to have said "even if I knew that the world would end tomorrow I would still plant an apple tree today".

PDN

wolfsbane wrote: »

I suspect it is near the End - the gospel has went to all the world is the one big test.

I understand that it is now expected that every people group in the world will have the Bible in their own language within the next 15 years.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

I understand that it is now expected that every people group in the world will have the Bible in their own language within the next 15 years.

Wycliffe Bible Translations is, I believe, the organization whose plan you're referring to. In this, they're hoping not to have the bibles finished by 2025, but simply to have a translation effort started (see here) in all remaining languages by then.

According to their stats, with 2400 languages yet to get underway, and an overall finish date of 2040 in mind (2025 + fifteen years average work per translation), they'll have to produce roughly three new translations per fortnight for the next thirty years to meet the expected completion date.

Interestingly, it seems that the bible is untranslatable into certain languages. The language of the Pirahã tribe in the Amazonian jungle requires that a statement of fact (ie, not a sentence in a story) regarding an action carried out by somebody other than the speaker must be accompanied by a modifier which specifies how the speaker knows that the action took place. This has curious feature prevents speakers from reporting the actions of people whom they do not personally know or events which they have not witnessed themselves. Or at least it doesn't allow it to happen without the speaker inadvertently implying that the story probably isn't true.

More on this bizarre language, and the people who speak it, in Dan Everett's excellent Don't Sleep, There are Snakes.

chozometroid

robindch wrote: »

Wycliffe Bible Translations is, I believe, the organization whose plan you're referring to. In this, they're hoping not to have the bibles finished by 2025, but simply to have a translation effort started (see here) in all remaining languages by then.

According to their stats, with 2400 languages yet to get underway, and an overall finish date of 2040 in mind (2025 + fifteen years average work per translation), they'll have to produce roughly three new translations per fortnight for the next thirty years to meet the expected completion date.

Interestingly, it seems that the bible is untranslatable into certain languages. The language of the Pirahã tribe in the Amazonian jungle requires that a statement of fact (ie, not a sentence in a story) regarding an action carried out by somebody other than the speaker must be accompanied by a modifier which specifies how the speaker knows that the action took place. This has curious feature prevents speakers from reporting the actions of people whom they do not personally know or events which they have not witnessed themselves. Or at least it doesn't allow it to happen without the speaker inadvertently implying that the story probably isn't true.

More on this bizarre language, and the people who speak it, in Dan Everett's excellent Don't Sleep, There are Snakes.

Interesting stuff. Language is a fascinating subject.

On that point, I think those of us awaiting the end of days, with the prerequisite "spreading of the gospel to all the world," should not think it means having a Bible in every possible language (I'm not saying that is why PDN or robindch mentioned the translations). Sharing the message is the key, IMO, which needn't be handing a jungle tribesman a hefty OT/NT Bible and saying, "here is the gospel." Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Preachers allow people to hear the word of God.

bakkiesbotha

People seem to have made assumptions about what it will be like in the New Jerusalem, which to me don't seem to have strong foundations in scripture. I can't find any guidance on the following questions:

1. Will there be structures and institutions to keep things running, just like in human affairs, but obviously administered perfectly?

2. Will there be things to do and people to see and conversations to be had and challenges to be overcome?

3. Will we even be conscious / active, or will it be an eternity of some kind of passive form of bliss / union with God?

Can anyone point me in the direction of some clarification on these?

santing

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

People seem to have made assumptions about what it will be like in the New Jerusalem, which to me don't seem to have strong foundations in scripture. I can't find any guidance on the following questions:

1. Will there be structures and institutions to keep things running, just like in human affairs, but obviously administered perfectly?

2. Will there be things to do and people to see and conversations to be had and challenges to be overcome?

3. Will we even be conscious / active, or will it be an eternity of some kind of passive form of bliss / union with God?

Can anyone point me in the direction of some clarification on these?

Revelations 21 gives a lot of "insight" in the new Jerusalem: it is obvious that it is not like any city we know of (having a hight of 12000 stadia, and gates made out of a single pearl) It is obvious that to describe its glory John used symbolic language! Revelations 21 does also state that the New Jerusalem is the "Bride of the Lamb" or the Church. It is God dwelling with humans, in humans, in perfect harmony and glory.
But I think this question goes beyond the original question of "end times"

wolfsbane

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

People seem to have made assumptions about what it will be like in the New Jerusalem, which to me don't seem to have strong foundations in scripture. I can't find any guidance on the following questions:

1. Will there be structures and institutions to keep things running, just like in human affairs, but obviously administered perfectly?

2. Will there be things to do and people to see and conversations to be had and challenges to be overcome?

3. Will we even be conscious / active, or will it be an eternity of some kind of passive form of bliss / union with God?

Can anyone point me in the direction of some clarification on these?

There is little to go on, given the symbolic nature of Revelation. But praising God is not passive. The existence of a new earth and our possession of glorified physical bodies also implies something more than a dreamy existence.

The only other fact that springs to mind is that there will be no marriage/sexual union. I take it that is because we will all be in perfect union with God and one another.

bakkiesbotha

wolfsbane wrote: »

There is little to go on, given the symbolic nature of Revelation. But praising God is not passive. The existence of a new earth and our possession of glorified physical bodies also implies something more than a dreamy existence.

The only other fact that springs to mind is that there will be no marriage/sexual union. I take it that is because we will all be in perfect union with God and one another.

Perfection implies that there is nothing left to do though, no?

PDN

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

Perfection implies that there is nothing left to do though, no?

The perfection that Wolsbane referred to referred to our union with God. I don't see how it follows that there is nothing left to do.

You could enjoy perfect union with God and still learn how to play the saxophone, enjoy a sunset, play a game of football etc.

Min

A lot of prophecies coming together?

Israel restored with all its culture.
Mayan culture predicting something big for 2012.
The next Pope to be the last.

PDN

Min wrote: »

A lot of prophecies coming together?

Israel restored with all its culture.
Mayan culture predicting something big for 2012.
The next Pope to be the last.

Nope.

The restoration of Israel was supposed to be accompanied by the worship and presence of the Messiah. Modern day Israel steadfastly chooses to reject their Messiah.

Mayan scholars say the whole 2012 thing is a big misinterpretation of the Mayan calendar, which would be a disappointment if there were any Mayans around who were still using it to calculate the best days to rip the hearts of human sacrifices to worship the maize god.

I expect Popes to be around for a long time to come.

Min

In St Malachy's prophecy it says the next pope will be:

In persecutione extrema S.R.E. sedebit Petrus Romanus, qui pascet oves in multis tribulationibus: quibus transactis civitas septicollis diruetur, & Judex tremêdus judicabit populum suum. Finis.

(In extreme persecution, the seat of the Holy Roman Church will be occupied by Peter the Roman, who will feed the sheep through many tribulations, at the term of which the city of seven hills will be destroyed, and the formidable Judge will judge his people. The End.)

dvpower

PDN wrote: »

Mayan scholars say the whole 2012 thing is a big misinterpretation of the Mayan calendar, which would be a disappointment if there were any Mayans around who were still using it to calculate the best days to rip the hearts of human sacrifices to worship the maize god.

There's a Hollywood movie coming out next month on this. You might be needing a sticky.

PDN

dvpower wrote: »

There's a Hollywood movie coming out next month on this. You might be needing a sticky.

We need boards.ie to set up a "Crap Movies for Morons" Forum.

Turtwig

PDN wrote: »

We need boards.ie to set up a "Crap Movies for Morons" Forum.

Well the movie mightn't be crap, but its premise certainly is.
Gotta say though I'll be very surprised if it's anything other than crap.

dvpower

Malty_T wrote: »

Gotta say though I'll be very surprised if it's anything other than crap.

Its directed by Roland Emmerich, the guy who did Independence Day, so I'd say that's a racing certainty.

Turtwig

dvpower wrote: »

Its directed by Roland Emmerich, the guy who did Independence Day, so I'd say that's a racing certainty.

:eek:
Blasphemy!

Roland Emmerich is responsible for the movie 'Stargate' which no one remembers,(probably with good reason too) but led to one of this boardsies favourite tv shows : Stargate SG1.:D

wolfsbane

Min wrote: »

A lot of prophecies coming together?

Israel restored with all its culture.
Mayan culture predicting something big for 2012.
The next Pope to be the last.

For what its worth:
Many dispensationalist Christians believer the Antichrist will be an apostate Jew, so this will interest them:
Mahmoud-Ahmadinejad an apostate Jew
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/6256173/Mahmoud-Ahmadinejad-revealed-to-have-Jewish-past.html