Sword Ban Republic of Ireland

Voltaire

Can anyone practicing sword arts in Ireland (or anyone with relevant info) clarify the details of the new laws regarding knifes and swords in the Republic of Ireland?

Regards,

Voltaire

vasch_ro

there are no new laws yet

zappazappa

Check the following link from the Iaido Association:

http://www.iaido.ie/node/123

zappa

HammerHeadGym

Technically they are classed as ornaments, so knock yourself out.

mickeythemonkey

The attitude of the Irish Government is again knee jerk from the limited information that they are releasing the main point of this legislation is to restrict the licensing of hand guns but they are bundling in swords as well which is ridiculous.
I'll handle the gun issue first, the government (Dermot Ahern) seems to think that we are developing a gun culture which again is unfounded as it is the criminal element of Ireland that seem to be obsessed with hand guns not your average Joe soap who has to go through a lot of red tape in order to own one, for sport mainly Olympic pistol shooting, and I believe that this will pretty much kill of any chances of us getting a medal there.
Looking at it from the governments perspective I assume that the fear that some of these pistols will fall into the hands of criminal gangs, having there serial number filed off and end up being used in crimes, but there is a simple solution to this if they test fire each pistol they will have a copy of the striation marks eliminating the serial number problem, but as i said i think this is a knee jerk reaction so they haven’t thought of that.
If the Olympic council of Ireland is contacted they may lend there support which will put a bit more weight and numbers behind the argument.

Now the main topic Swords I've done some research on sword crimes and found two cases.
One where some guy walked into a pub and chopped off another guys hand in front of a lot of people and clearly wasn't a martial artist and seems to be a one off incident, Ill get back to what may have prevented this later and what i believe is the real solution to the issue.

The second case is a young father (26) who states that there where a group of young lads causing damage to his car on several occasions, and one particular incident he in his own words approached the lads disarmed one that was carrying a sword and gave chase through a local field, one of the neighbours reported it and the gards perused with the help of the garda helicopter the young father was arrested and charged.
While in court the young Father said he had disarmed one of the lads and received a wound to his hand consistent with such an event and produced a receipt for previous damage to his car which was disregarded because he had not reported the previous incidents to the gards and received a pretty severe sentence if I recall correctly 6 years.

I recognise the dangers of these incidents and don't want to make light of them but compared to crimes committed with knifes these crimes would be far less than 1%,and I don’t see the Government trying to ban knives, I know that suggestion of banning knifes is laughable to a responsible person who has knifes in their kitchen, but so is banning swords to responsible sword owner, and this is the point that the Government is missing, and if this legislation is Passed it looks like sword owners will become criminals overnight.






At this stage I would like to make some points anyone who practices martial arts tends to follow the Budo code in one form or another which, is peaceful stressing the power or the pen or in this case keypad, and private collectors will have some understanding of this code, and use their swords as display only.
So with this in mind i would like to put forward what i believe would be one practical solution to the issue.

The National Sword Database

* A privately held list of all sword owners in the country with one central import zone, With the following rules and categories and supports.

Categories

*Sword owners involved in martial arts sharp.
*Sword owners involved in martial arts blunt.
*Junior Sword owners involved in martial arts sharp.
*Junior Sword owners involved in martial arts Blunt.
*Private Sword Collectors.

Rules

*All sword owners (sharp) must be 18 Years of age (with the exception of 16 year olds that have reached black belt level in any existing sword art with the permission of their Sensei of Master and existing junior sword owners)
*All existing swords and new imports should be photographed and recorded including type of metal, sword smiths signature, manufactures name, owners name, address and telephone number whether blunt or sharp.
*Modifications and repairs should be reported to the database where new photos and a new registration will take place.
* One central import area for all new swords entering Ireland where they will be recorded.
*Access to the data base will only be voluntarily released to the authorities in relation to a crime with permission of the sword owner, where a sword has been used as a weapon and has been identified as having specific marks to a sword on the database.
*Where a sword crime has occurred in the area of a registered sword owner or owners you will be informed and asked if necessary to voluntarily present your sword to the relevent authorities for inspection so that you can be ruled out of any investigation.
* Where a sword has been damaged beyond repair it shall be regarded as such presented to the database head office, checked, decommissioned and sent for recycling, and the owner will be issued with a cert of decommissioning and recycling.





Supports

*News letter when new legeslation is proposed.
*Access to legal support.
*Support when ordering swords or problems relating to consumer rights.
*Decommissioning and Recycling.
*A political voice in support of responsible Sword ownership.


I'm asking all sword owners for there support and suggestions on this issues and i believe that if we all come together on this, that we have a good chance of at least becoming involved in the debate and having some influence on the legislation.
If the Governments issues are addressed before the legislation reaches the dail it will be much easer to prevent responsible sword owners becoming overnight criminals.

Anyone interested in putting together a demonstration for Dermot Ahern and an introduction to Budo Arts please let me know, as education is the answer to ignorance.

Please lend me your support on the boards or email me at nationalsworddatabase@gmail.com
If you would like to register a sword email me, and I promise to keep administrative costs to a minimum.

Niall Keane

I think what will happen as always, will be a copy and paste of the British Laws which allow for the transport and use of swords for martial artists, Olympic fencers, reconstruction groups etc... All you will have to do is transport swords in a bag within a bag, and have a valid membership of some organisation.
BTW martial arts groups in UK all posted a link on their websites to a petition calling for recognition of the legitimate use of swords, maybe what should be done here, say a facebook page / group?

On the above proposed “National Database” I see opportunism at play here already:

“A privately held list of all sword owners in the country with one central import zone, with the following rules and categories and supports.”

I guess someone is hoping to be the importer, well guess what that would be contrary to EU competition rules.

All sword owners (sharp) must be 18 Years of age (with the exception of 16 year olds that have reached black belt level in any existing sword art with the permission of their Sensei of Master and existing junior sword owners)

What’s black belt level and what about arts that have no belts and that train weapons from the onset? This proposal probably seems reasonable in your art but not mine!

“All existing swords and new imports should be photographed and recorded including type of metal, sword smiths signature, manufactures name, owners name, address and telephone number whether blunt or sharp.”

No such level of detail should be required, products are already listed and ISO tested, I’d say it might be a bit difficult getting a dead sword smiths signature, but stating such would certainly alert any thieves as to the whereabouts of valuable swords. Cannot see any other reason for such detail, unless for the preparation of a where to steal catalogue.

“Modifications and repairs should be reported to the database where new photos and a new registration will take place”

For what, so the value could be recalculated? It won’t make any difference to the killing ability!

“Access to the data base will only be voluntarily released to the authorities in relation to a crime with permission of the sword owner, where a sword has been used as a weapon and has been identified as having specific marks to a sword on the database.”

Where a database exists it can be hacked. No database listing the private property of citizens should exist in the hands of any private individual(s). Excellent way of setting someone up.

“Where a sword crime has occurred in the area of a registered sword owner or owners you will be informed and asked if necessary to voluntarily present your sword to the relevent authorities for inspection so that you can be ruled out of any investigation.”

So in effect an honest citizen automatically becomes a suspect, I have a big problem with this, you have the right to silence, but to use it can be implied as evidence of guilt. Also say in some future you’re accused of manslaughter, nothing to do with swords, the fact that you are listed as a collector of items that’s sole design purpose is to kill, it wouldn’t take a genius of a barrister to portray you as a killer to a jury unfamiliar with sword arts, isn’t this the sensationalism poised at the public that is causing the entire issue!

Supports

*News letter when new legeslation is proposed

.
No thanks, no spam for me.

*Access to legal support.

Yea, I have the yellow pages too.

*Support when ordering swords or problems relating to consumer rights.

The NCA already exists, and why should I pay someone for being a sword “travel agent”

*Decommissioning and Recycling.

Again this is a business venture, so could not be monopolized.

*A political voice in support of responsible Sword ownership.

What T.D.s have stated they’ll champion the cause?

If your intentions were honest and I seem harsh, appologies, but hopefully I've highlighted some serious matters within the proposal.

Scramble

If they do 'copy and paste' the final amended legislation from the UK, as does seem likely, then it could end up being surprisingly limited.

My understanding is that in the UK anything with a curved blade of more than 50cm was considered banned from importation, hire, sale, loan etc. Defenses of requiring the sword for sporting, religious or re-enactors purposes were included in the legislation.

Quite importantly, swords manafactured before 1953 or swords made or finished by hand-methods were exlcuded from the ban. The idea behind the ban was to limit the availability of manafactured 'sword like objects' and cheap swords - not restrict trade in either WWII-era factory-made guntos (Japanese army swords) or higher quality hand-finished traditional swords and contemporary high-end reproductions.

So, in the UK, you can no longer buy a strainless steel 'Highlander' katana for £50 on Ebay.co.uk and take it down the pub with you (to settle a score with Mark wot kissed your girlfriend Tracy, presumably). Assuming, of course, that you are not able to prove some martial arts credentials.... In that sense, the ban has succeeded.

You could however, still buy something like a Paul Chen practical katana for about £150+ which is basically a chinese-made sword that slips in under the ban because it is made at least partly using traditional methods.

What's also important to note is that the wording of the swords covered specially mentions swords with a curve, as this was conceived as a 'samurai sword' ban. What's funny is that while this wording then also catches up cutlasses, sabers and things like Chinese dao, it doesn't cover at all any kind of straight sword, of whatever dimensions or manafacturing method.

And either way, given the defenses provided in the legislation, asian martial arts practitioners, western historical martial arts re-enactors, Sikhs and serious collectors and antiquarians can still pretty much import and deal in whatever they want.

So, quite a toothless bit of legislation all in all.

mickeythemonkey

Niall Keane wrote: »

I think what will happen as always, will be a copy and paste of the British Laws which allow for the transport and use of swords for martial artists, Olympic fencers, reconstruction groups etc... All you will have to do is transport swords in a bag within a bag, and have a valid membership of some organisation.
BTW martial arts groups in UK all posted a link on their websites to a petition calling for recognition of the legitimate use of swords, maybe what should be done here, say a facebook page / group?

First of all there is a page set up on bebo.
Do you know how much of the taxpayers money get wasted on new legislation?
There are laws there allready and they think we need new ones because one or to no brain sap's.

On the above proposed “National Database” I see opportunism at play here already:

I see a someone with no positive input.

I guess someone is hoping to be the importer, well guess what that would be contrary to EU competition rules.

no I'm not but i might import lock boxes.let me know if you need one

What’s black belt level and what about arts that have no belts and that train weapons from the onset? This proposal probably seems reasonable in your art but not mine!

Tell me about your art, and a note for you no beginer needs a live blade unless they are over 18 and resopsible and if you read again i said under 18's,this was a call for support and ideas not smart comments.

No such level of detail should be required, products are already listed and ISO tested, I’d say it might be a bit difficult getting a dead sword smiths signature, but stating such would certainly alert any thieves as to the whereabouts of valuable swords. Cannot see any other reason for such detail, unless for the preparation of a where to steal catalogue.

Is the fact that they are ISO tested stopping them bringing in new laws?And for your information the sword smiths signiture is on the tang under the handle, and who said anything about valuing swordsthats a completly dirent matter, and what do you mean alert thieves what are you going to do start sky writing a list you have no access to and another thing you would whant to be very brave or incredibly stupid to break into the house of a martial artist.

For what, so the value could be recalculated? It won’t make any difference to the killing ability!

It's not about value it's about distancing ligetimate sword owners from scum.

Where a database exists it can be hacked. No database listing the private property of citizens should exist in the hands of any private individual(s). Excellent way of setting someone up.

so you can hack a database thats not on the net can you?

So in effect an honest citizen automatically becomes a suspect, I have a big problem with this, you have the right to silence, but to use it can be implied as evidence of guilt. Also say in some future you’re accused of manslaughter, nothing to do with swords, the fact that you are listed as a collector of items that’s sole design purpose is to kill, it wouldn’t take a genius of a barrister to portray you as a killer to a jury unfamiliar with sword arts, isn’t this the sensationalism poised at the public that is causing the entire issue!

That is a silly argument a list like this will do the oposit it means that the people on the list have notting to hide and by volontaraly producing your sword for testing for example blood or cleaning agents your eliminated from investgations and it saves time so the real criminals can be caught sooner, I'm sure you wouldn't want some crackpot running around your area with a sword, you would want them caught as soon as possible.
And i am highly ofended by your statement that "the sole purpose is to kill" do you think that people buy swords with those intentions in mind?
If that is what you think you shouldn't even be comenting on this.
But i do take your point about the right to silence but i don't think that the National Sword Database would have the same legal rights as a reporter but i'll have a look into it
.

No thanks, no spam for me.

I'm not forcing an email on anyone

Yea, I have the yellow pages too.

with the numbers of solicitors and barresters that are willing to take such a case!

The NCA already exists, and why should I pay someone for being a sword “travel agent”

I'm sure that they are well up on the terms used when ordering hand made and hand forged sword for an example.

Again this is a business venture, so could not be monopolized.

who said it was a business venture?

What T.D.s have stated they’ll champion the cause?

by the way you don't have to be a TD to have a political voice and for your information i have contacted Dermot Ahearn and others Let me Quote you Part of one of the early responses. "I'll bear in mind your briefing
material when we come round to discussing the issue.

With best wishes
David Norris

If your intentions were honest and I seem harsh, appologies, but hopefully I've highlighted some serious matters within the proposal.

They are harsh you should have asked questions frist not made statments, if you have any information that might help let me know

Voltaire

Update here:

http://www.iaido.ie/

No laws in force yet

mickeythemonkey

Voltaire wrote: »

Update here:

http://www.iaido.ie/

No laws in force yet

No not yet I'm trying to get a meeting with Dermot Ahearn about it, I think the proposed law is a waste of money and i would like to get it droped, whats you thoughts on it and The National Sword Database, please let me know i would like some feedback.
Thanks i read thet artical by bjorn, I emailed iaido assosiaton but haven't recived a reply yet hope to soon though.

Quillo

Seems to me that a national swords database would only serve to point Gardai in the right direction should this or other laws come into force and they decide to conficate existing swords......

coolabula

dont the guards have a record of anyone holding a gun licence?
would a sword database not be the same thing?

if there is a shooting you dont see the guards rounding up anyone with a licensed gun and questioning them, the same would apply for the swords.

get people to register and get a licence to have a sword, make sure they are not crazy feckers, basically the same as with guns.

does this not make sense??

mickeythemonkey

Quillo wrote: »

Seems to me that a national swords database would only serve to point Gardai in the right direction should this or other laws come into force and they decide to conficate existing swords......

Hey Quillo if you think The National Sword Database would only serve one pupose then i sugest that you read the artical again.
The will never go into the hands of the Garda and thats a personal promise and if the data base is contacted by the Garda in relation to a sword crime any one with a sword fitting the discription of one used in a sword crime or living in the area of the imaginary crime will be contacted by me and informed of the event, and asked to volutarly contact the Garda and present their sword and if they don't want to do it personaly and remain anonyomus i would offer to present it with the owners permisson, but i don't expect many cases like that as ligetimate sword owners and collectors don't commit crimes.
As to a law to conficate swords i would fight it in the courts on behalf of the members of the National Sword Database.

Thanks for your comment and if you would like to join or support there is a bebo page or you can email me at nationalsworddatabase@gmail.com

mickeythemonkey

Scramble wrote: »

If they do 'copy and paste' the final amended legislation from the UK, as does seem likely, then it could end up being surprisingly limited.

My understanding is that in the UK anything with a curved blade of more than 50cm was considered banned from importation, hire, sale, loan etc. Defenses of requiring the sword for sporting, religious or re-enactors purposes were included in the legislation.

Quite importantly, swords manafactured before 1953 or swords made or finished by hand-methods were exlcuded from the ban. The idea behind the ban was to limit the availability of manafactured 'sword like objects' and cheap swords - not restrict trade in either WWII-era factory-made guntos (Japanese army swords) or higher quality hand-finished traditional swords and contemporary high-end reproductions.

So, in the UK, you can no longer buy a strainless steel 'Highlander' katana for £50 on Ebay.co.uk and take it down the pub with you (to settle a score with Mark wot kissed your girlfriend Tracy, presumably). Assuming, of course, that you are not able to prove some martial arts credentials.... In that sense, the ban has succeeded.

You could however, still buy something like a Paul Chen practical katana for about £150+ which is basically a chinese-made sword that slips in under the ban because it is made at least partly using traditional methods.

What's also important to note is that the wording of the swords covered specially mentions swords with a curve, as this was conceived as a 'samurai sword' ban. What's funny is that while this wording then also catches up cutlasses, sabers and things like Chinese dao, it doesn't cover at all any kind of straight sword, of whatever dimensions or manafacturing method.

And either way, given the defenses provided in the legislation, asian martial arts practitioners, western historical martial arts re-enactors, Sikhs and serious collectors and antiquarians can still pretty much import and deal in whatever they want.

So, quite a toothless bit of legislation all in all.

A waste of money!

mickeythemonkey

coolabula wrote: »

dont the guards have a record of anyone holding a gun licence?
would a sword database not be the same thing?

if there is a shooting you dont see the guards rounding up anyone with a licensed gun and questioning them, the same would apply for the swords.

get people to register and get a licence to have a sword, make sure they are not crazy feckers, basically the same as with guns.

does this not make sense??

Finaly some one who gets it!
Thanks

coolabula

yeah me :D:D

Niall Keane

Tell me about your art, and a note for you no beginner needs a live blade unless they are over 18 and responsible and if you read again I said under 18's,this was a call for support and ideas not smart comments.

So what if part of the art involves cutting? The kid is practicing for 5 years since 10? A single year of experience by an 18year old student should have more blade awareness????
I practice Wudang (Practical) Tai Chi Chuan; we train with Chinese Sabre, Sword and Spear. Focus and blade awareness are key training factors in our art, so live blade cutting is deemed necessary, though I don’t see why this answer is necessary, who the fcuk are you to even suggest how a DIFFERENT art should be practiced?

Is the fact that they are ISO tested stopping them bringing in new laws?

Please reread, my point is to be ISO certed, their make up and details are already documented, so again:

and recorded including type of metal, sword smiths signature, manufactures name, owners name, address and telephone number whether blunt or sharp.

this is not necessary, and only serves to allow a valuation to be carried out by anyone who possesses the details.

another thing you would whant to be very brave or incredibly stupid to break into the house of a martial artist.

Well, here’s a bit of strategy for ya, guess what? They might wait until the house was vacant?

so you can hack a database thats not on the net can you?

So where’s it to be kept? In your gaf??? I don’t know you from Adam? That’s my whole point; no way would I give out such personal details to anyone save the gardi.

And i am highly ofended by your statement that "the sole purpose is to kill" do you think that people buy swords with those intentions in mind?

Please reread, or at least don’t misquote, I said “that’s sole design purpose is to kill”, any arguments here?

With the numbers of solicitors and barristers that are willing to take such a case!

With the amount out of work now?? Are you serious? Also there are representative bodies to point you in the right direction, alternatively Google judgements on knife crime etc. and see who represented who, and more importantly who won.

by the way you don't have to be a TD to have a political voice and for your information i have contacted Dermot Ahearn and others Let me Quote you Part of one of the early responses. "I'll bear in mind your briefing
material when we come round to discussing the issue.

Yea that’s convinced me! A promise to bear it in mind.


Maybe you have good intentions, may I remind you where they lead, alternatively, for all I know you could be an opportunist seeking the cash and power associated with registering, sourcing and administrating the use of weapons? Or indeed a thief, looking for someone gullible enough to email you with an itinerary of their valuable swords?
It may very well be that my concerns are unwarranted, but the point is a poster here who doesn't know you shouldn't trust you. This sounds alot like, sorry your account may be shut down in the future, unless you send us your details now.

If you're genuine well look, right now I’m free, if a law comes in like the UK, I’ll still be relatively free, compared to the draconian measures you’re proposing, I know you say voluntary, but voluntary can very quickly become mandatory, and that’s what I fear.

coolabula

Niall I honestly dont think that Mickey is trying to scam anyone here, I understand your need to be dubious and wary but from what I am reading he is genuinely pissed off about this and wants to do something.

Niall Keane

In all fairness lads, you both joined this month, and have less than 10 posts each. Neither of you are using your real names. What am I to think?

Personally, I study Chinese martial arts so the swords I have are worth f. all. Hence I have replied to this post, but even modern Japanese Swords can be worth €10,000s, if I had one I wouldn't even mention it, would you expect women to post a list of their diamond jewelry to a gmail account?

My advice to people is the ban probably won't effect them, and if they do end up having to register their swords, just like guns, do so with the states authorities, not a private individual. At the very least it's harder to steal a confidential list from a barracks than from an office.

coolabula

I dont put up my real name, I am wary of these things and you have a right to be wary of people too.

In fairness I reckon you can guess Mickeythemonkeys real name??

My advice to people is the ban probably won't effect them, and if they do end up having to register their swords, just like guns, do so with the states authorities, not a private individual. At the very least it's harder to steal a confidential list from a barracks than from an office.

I agree with you here, but I wouldnt like to see an outright ban and people becoming criminals overnight, there needs to be a discussion process with the law abiding people affected by this proposed law change.

That is all I am saying on the matter, nearly finished work anyway

mickeythemonkey

Niall Keane wrote: »

So what if part of the art involves cutting? The kid is practicing for 5 years since 10? A single year of experience by an 18year old student should have more blade awareness????
I practice Wudang (Practical) Tai Chi Chuan; we train with Chinese Sabre, Sword and Spear. Focus and blade awareness are key training factors in our art, so live blade cutting is deemed necessary, though I don’t see why this answer is necessary, you the fcuk are you to even suggest how a DIFFERENT art should be practiced?

Firstly my article was an open call for suggestions and support and you have offered none of either just slander and bad attitude.
Second i never suggested how martial arts should be practiced my suggestions are about responsible sword ownership and by the way live blades weight is on average 1.5kgs way to heavy for any ten year old to safely cut bamboo or matts even if they have 5 years experience a child is still a child and your example is ridiculous.
Are you saying that your Instructor lets children use live blades?
Find me 1 instructor that would hand a child a live blade and i will show you the most irresponsible person in Ireland!
An another thing dont speak to me as if i have no knowledge of martial arts, in Aikido you don't touch a blade for years and definately not children, in Haidong Gumdo you don't get a live blade until your a black belt.
As for blade awareness that can be achieved with a bokken or mok gum wooden weapons you know the same material your head seems to be made of, and in Ireland an 18 year old is an adult and a child is a child if you don't know the difference you have serious problems.

Please reread, my point is to be ISO certed, their make up and details are already documented, so again:

this is not necessary, and only serves to allow a valuation to be carried out by anyone who possesses the details.

You clearly know nothing about iso certs.
again it's not about valuation it's about identification of weapons in crimes and seperating genuine people from the scum who commit crimes with swords and showing that you have notting to hide, for example if a fragment of metal was found at a crime scene it automatically eliminates people and speeds up investigations.

Well, here’s a bit of strategy for ya, guess what? They might wait until the house was vacant?

well that won't happen because i will be the only one with the list.

So where’s it to be kept? In your gaf??? I don’t know you from Adam? That’s my whole point; no way would I give out such personal details to anyone save the gardi.

Don't then, and the location of the list none of you business.

Please reread, or at least don’t misquote, I said “that’s sole design purpose is to kill”, any arguments here?

Originaly but, that statement hasen't been true for a long time they are designed for cutting demonstrations.

With the amount out of work now?? Are you serious? Also there are representative bodies to point you in the right direction, alternatively Google judgements on knife crime etc. and see who represented who, and more importantly who won.

so your oposed to extra support, ok then.

Maybe you have good intentions, may I remind you where they lead, alternatively, for all I know you could be an opportunist seeking the cash and power associated with registering, sourcing and administrating the use of weapons? Or indeed a thief, looking for someone gullible enough to email you with an itinerary of their valuable swords?

Tread carefully thats the second time you have made that suggestion.
I never said it would be done by email it would have to be done in person for validity and i would be taking the photos and details i already told you it wouldn't be on the net.
Vists to martial arts clubs would be appropriate or a couple of large gatherings which i'm sure if requested by anyone the garda could be present i would have no problem with that.
I have already disclosed my personal information to the minister for justice Dermot Ahearn is that good enough for you!

It may very well be that my concerns are unwarranted

,they are

but the point is a poster here who doesn't know you shouldn't trust you. This sounds alot like, sorry your account may be shut down in the future, unless you send us your details now.

If thats how you view the world then it must be misrible for you, I have answered all of your questions and statements because i belive it is the right thing to do and everyone is entitled to an opion and answers to their questions if they can be found.

If you're genuine well look

, again i am

right now I’m free, if a law comes in like the UK, I’ll still be relatively free, compared to the draconian measures you’re proposing, I know you say voluntary, but voluntary can very quickly become mandatory, and that’s what I fear.

My sugestions are not draconian, and you are Right to have fear, but not of me,if this proposed legislation is passed they can change it whenever they like without it going to the dail or telling anyone and thats what i Fear, do you know how many laws have been amended in the last five years? and that is the whole point of setting up this database in the first place to allay government and the publics fears although i don't see any one calling for this law except one,IT'S A WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY! BUT I DO HEAR PEOPLE CALLING FOR REFORM OF THE GARDA MORE OF THEM.

mickeythemonkey

Niall Keane wrote: »

In all fairness lads, you both joined this month, and have less than 10 posts each.

Neither of you are using your real names.

I take you point I put my name up on my profile

What am I to think?

I cant tell you what to think,But i will tell you what i know or believe to be true.

Personally, I study Chinese martial arts so the swords I have are worth f. all. Hence I have replied to this post, but even modern Japanese Swords can be worth €10,000s, if I had one I wouldn't even mention it, would you expect women to post a list of their diamond jewelry to a gmail account?

Your misunderstanding me the email address is for support,ideas and to contact me if you want to register a sword, i never said anything about sending details and i can't personally take photos over the net, i'm sorry i that wasn't clearer on that i thought it was self expalitory.

My advice to people is the ban probably won't effect them, and if they do end up having to register their swords, just like guns, do so with the states authorities, not a private individual. At the very least it's harder to steal a confidential list from a barracks than from an office.

Niall i mean no offence by this comment but i think you need to rethink that advice based on my replies to you and what i'm about to say.
and please remember if the proposed law was dropped none of this would matter, get ready for a major rant on how things might go.

If this legislation comes in people will have to register or get a licence which will cost sword owners and the government money and waste garda time, thats without the cost of drafting the legislation in the first place it also wastes time in the dail that could be used to discuss more important issuses everyone knows there are more important issuses than this.
There are already strong laws in place at the moment we dont need another one, people are already straped for cash, the public aren't calling for this law,better inforcement of exsisting law is the answer,there where no hand guns here till 2004, what happened that sudenly made them legal? if the hand gun issuse had of been delt with in 2004 this wouldint be happening, (with the exception of olyimpic pistiols) people are calling for more garda,special needs assistance more funding for groups like St Vincent de Paul all falling under the heading of equality thats what Dermot Ahearn should be concentrating not laws that the public aren't asking for he should do what he is being asked to do, not what he wants, this is the waste of money crap that they did when we had money now we don't he wants to keep doing it,they wasted €200,000 an ant knife canpainge that was a major flop, although his intentions seem good, it's the wrong approach.
Back to licencing they just doubled the cost of the driving test, they will eventually do that to a sword licence, and god forbid some one forgets to renew their licence, when there is a sword crime, the guardas first stop will be the local martial arts hall and the checking of licences and confiscation of those who thought it wasn't nessasary, and the shere act that there there will be misconstrued by the local busy body and bam the bad reputation and rumors start.

Now today at this moment in time we should be publicising the budo ethics, way of life and health benefits.
As for the storage of this information all garda in the country will have that information, just look at what happened with the bank of Ireland laptops that went missing,the HSE laptops that went missing a while back with the most vunerable peoples information on them, that took months to come out in the news and they didn't even change those peoples PPS numbers and just there on the 9 o clock news more HSE laptops gone missing.

The prosess i would use the register a sword.
* Take photos to register swords
* The information would be written in code.
* Two code books (similar to what they used in WW2 that are unbreakable unless you have all 3 of the following the key, list and code book)
*I have the key memorised
*A paper copy of that key will be sent to a Government offical.
* The second copy of the code book would be sent to the Garda

If anyone has another solution this problem please let me know!
I know my solution seems complicated but i think i have coverd all concerns.

If you Whant do do it
*Email for an apointment
*regester your sword
*the information WILL BE SAFE

mickeythemonkey

Have a quick read of what i wrote and let me know what you think please.

Clive

I'm not sure exactly what it is that you're proposing this register would achieve?

Are you saying that this voluntary register might cause the government to shelve the proposed legislation? Or that the legislation could make this an official legal register?

Either way, I have serious issues with this being in the hands of a private individual or company.

Firstly weapons licencing is already established and enforced - firearms, crossbows etc. It would be much easier to add swords to this category if that is the path to be followed, rather than "outsourcing" one particular weapon to a secondary body.

Secondly the data protection issues - especially considering your statement about "unbreakable" WW2 codes. I take it you're talking about a one-time pad system?

Thirdly, while I appreciate it is most likely your own background; most sword owners in this country are not Japanese martial artists. The Nipponocentric talk of budo and belts makes it hard to consider this an independent register.

Just my thoughts as a sword owner.

Roper

First use ever on boards of the word Nipponocentric. I hope that wasn't the word you edited to spell correctly.

I can't imagine the gardaí wanting an outside, private body having the information they may require to carry out an investigation. That being said, is there really so much sword crime as to warrant this burden on the taxpayer? I'd sooner see a few more quid spent on my local park than walk the streets knowing that only licensed sword owners are out there.

mickeythemonkey

Niall Keane wrote: »

In all fairness lads, you both joined this month, and have less than 10 posts each. Neither of you are using your real names. What am I to think?

Personally, I study Chinese martial arts so the swords I have are worth f. all. Hence I have replied to this post, but even modern Japanese Swords can be worth €10,000s, if I had one I wouldn't even mention it, would you expect women to post a list of their diamond jewelry to a gmail account?

My advice to people is the ban probably won't effect them, and if they do end up having to register their swords, just like guns, do so with the states authorities, not a private individual. At the very least it's harder to steal a confidential list from a barracks than from an office.

Clive wrote: »

I'm not sure exactly what it is that you're proposing this register would achieve?

Are you saying that this voluntary register might cause the government to shelve the proposed legislation?

Exactly thats what made me think of it, it would save a lot of money.if everyone got be hind it it might be enough, allthought if that was to happen i'm sure the concept would change with more input and support, any ideas?

Or that the legislation could make this an official legal register?

no thats not what i'm looking for.

Either way, I have serious issues with this being in the hands of a private individual or company.

I can understand that, when i was thinking about it, i thought the less people who have that information the better,i don't know any other way to say this but i trust myself, and its up to other people wether they want to trust me or not,i tryed to keep it simple.

Firstly weapons licencing is already established and enforced - firearms, crossbows etc. It would be much easier to add swords to this category if that is the path to be followed, rather than "outsourcing" one particular weapon to a secondary body.

I know but it costs money to do that, that new legeslation will cost a small fortune, this is an akward position i'm putting myself in but i'm willing to do it, I wish they would just drop the sword bit, i went through the dail debate and i could only find 2 deputys even mentioning Swords.they should be inforcing the laws that are allready in place.

Secondly the data protection issues - especially considering your statement about "unbreakable" WW2 codes. I take it you're talking about a one-time pad system?

on data protection I would be writing in code there is now way i would be able to remember what was what,i would have to use the code book and i have better things to do, even the thought of doing it if i was asked to by the garda is giving me a headace i honestly hope it doesn't happen very often.
On the codes yeah quite similar only a larger book,they would never of cracked them codes without the book.

Thirdly, while I appreciate it is most likely your own background; most sword owners in this country are not Japanese martial artists. The Nipponocentric talk of budo and belts makes it hard to consider this an independent register.

i just used budo and belts as an example as i would say it would be the type most people would recognise, i do Haidong Gumdo myself and thats Korean but saftey and respect was the main point i was trying to get accross, now that i'm typing this i realy should have said that from the start.

Just my thoughts as a sword owner.

one last thing what does Nipponocentric mean?

mickeythemonkey

Roper wrote: »

First use ever on boards of the word Nipponocentric. I hope that wasn't the word you edited to spell correctly.

I can't imagine the gardaí wanting an outside, private body having the information they may require to carry out an investigation.

It would save them a lot of time,and that happens garda would contact companys for employee records etc.

That being said, is there really so much sword crime as to warrant this burden on the taxpayer? I'd sooner see a few more quid spent on my local park than walk the streets knowing that only licensed sword owners are out there.

I feel the exactly the same:)

Scramble

Nothing like this proposed register would be anything other than voluntary unless it was put on a statutory footing. And if it were being put on a statutory footing then it would probably he given to the Gardai to look after.

Niall Keane

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall Keane
So what if part of the art involves cutting? The kid is practicing for 5 years since 10? A single year of experience by an 18year old student should have more blade awareness????
I practice Wudang (Practical) Tai Chi Chuan; we train with Chinese Sabre, Sword and Spear. Focus and blade awareness are key training factors in our art, so live blade cutting is deemed necessary, though I don’t see why this answer is necessary, you the fcuk are you to even suggest how a DIFFERENT art should be practiced?

reply by mickey:

Firstly my article was an open call for suggestions and support and you have offered none of either just slander and bad attitude.
Second i never suggested how martial arts should be practiced my suggestions are about responsible sword ownership and by the way live blades weight is on average 1.5kgs way to heavy for any ten year old* to safely cut bamboo or matts even if they have 5 years experience a child is still a child and your example is ridiculous.
Are you saying that your Instructor lets children use live blades?
Find me 1 instructor that would hand a child a live blade and i will show you the most irresponsible person in Ireland!**
An another thing dont speak to me as if i have no knowledge of martial arts, in Aikido you don't touch a blade for years and definately not children, in Haidong Gumdo you don't get a live blade until your a black belt.
As for blade awareness that can be achieved with a bokken or mok gum wooden weapons you know the same material your head seems to be made of, and in Ireland an 18 year old is an adult and a child is a child if you don't know the difference you have serious problems.

*(maths here: 10yr old + 5 years training = 15 yr old, by the way, in secondary school as a 12 yr old, I was taught woodwork and metalwork, using power tools, drills, saws etc. and furnaces, so I guess the government seems to think that its o.k. to train children in potentially lethal activities etc.?)

**(a moot point but most parents hand their children live blades, especially when steak is involved!)

“Second i never suggested how martial arts should be practiced…….
you don't touch a blade for years and definately not children
you don't get a live blade until your a black belt.
As for blade awareness that can be achieved with a bokken or mok gum wooden weapons”

You’re demonstrating that you have a fixed attitude to sword training, why bring up the constraints, restrictions / qualifications deemed necessary by your art? Unless of course you presume your way is the only right way? Clive has posted:

Thirdly, while I appreciate it is most likely your own background; most sword owners in this country are not Japanese martial artists. The Nipponocentric talk of budo and belts makes it hard to consider this an independent register.

Instead of taking my objections as

slander and bad attitude

, I think it might profit you to take them on board, to help you to understand the concerns of arts that you are not familiar with. You took an understandable and brave position of issuing what should be considered a draft to boards.ie readers containing what you deem necessary to promote a culture of safety and responsibility, however can you now see that many would indeed deem it to be Nipponocentric?
In the Wudang art I teach, both I and my Sifu have trained different people solely in the use of the Jian, this is unusual, but in both cases we acceded to a genuine request. Within a short space of time, both of these students purchased their own live blades to practice cutting plastic water bottles filled to varying degrees with water. If the cut is executed correctly, the bottle will be sliced, if not it will be knocked out of the way. Cuts are practiced from different angles and combinations put together. This training method helps display to the student any deficiencies in their blade awareness and angling that would not be apparent whilst performing solo or combined forms, nor in technique practice. Our attitude would be - repeatedly training a mistake will ingrain such a mistake, so better iron it out early. Any flaw in this logic???

Some people here know me for sanshou kickboxing, those who train with me know its full contact from the off, i.e. full contact sparring ending every class. Beginners spar my good self initially for 5-6 sessions, so I can take them through the dynamics of sanshou, after which they’ve got the idea and some confidence, and are able to spar the other students. I currently have students who are British champions and ranked within the top 5 in semi-pro sanda in Europe. So my method works!
My point, well from the stories I hear from my students, a lot of other teachers don’t allow full contact sparring for a year or more! They state safety concerns etc. that’s fine each to their own but would they be qualified to question my approach???

mickeythemonkey

Roper wrote: »

First use ever on boards of the word Nipponocentric. I hope that wasn't the word you edited to spell correctly.

I can't imagine the gardaí wanting an outside, private body having the information they may require to carry out an investigation. That being said, is there really so much sword crime as to warrant this burden on the taxpayer? I'd sooner see a few more quid spent on my local park than walk the streets knowing that only licensed sword owners are out there.

Niall Keane wrote: »

reply by mickey:

*(maths here: 10yr old + 5 years training = 15 yr old, by the way, in secondary school as a 12 yr old, I was taught woodwork and metalwork, using power tools, drills, saws etc. and furnaces, so I guess the government seems to think that its o.k. to train children in potentially lethal activities etc.?)

you got me in the maths, i miss read it.
I understand the point about power tools but you don't swing them around.

**(a moot point but most parents hand their children live blades, especially when steak is involved!)

I Just pictured giant fork!

You’re demonstrating that you have a fixed attitude to sword training, why bring up the constraints, restrictions / qualifications deemed necessary by your art?

No i Don't In my art you have to be 18 and a black belt, and there are alot of people out that would consider my sugestion that 16 should be year old be alowwed a live blade irisponsibe.I'm trying to sugest something the Government accecpt and i though even 16 was pusing it with them.

Unless of course you presume your way is the only right way?

if i did, i wouldn't of asked for sugestions
Clive has posted:

Instead of taking my objections as , I think it might profit you to take them on board, to help you to understand the concerns of arts that you are not familiar with.

I belive i have, and that draft wasn't just based on my views (as you know i think the law should droped)I was trying to ally government fears.Objections are good but sugestions and support are better.

You took an understandable and brave position of issuing what should be considered a draft to boards.ie

Thank you for that.

readers containing what you deem necessary to promote a culture of safety and responsibility, however can you now see that many would indeed deem it to be Nipponocentric?

I wasn't just what i deemed, i was trying to get a result(it droped by allying government concerns) I need to look up Nipponocentric.

In the Wudang art I teach, both I and my Sifu have trained different people solely in the use of the Jian, this is unusual, but in both cases we acceded to a genuine request.

How old where they? and what do you think is a reasionable age for sword ownership?Training experiance etc?

Within a short space of time, both of these students purchased their own live blades to practice cutting plastic water bottles filled to varying degrees with water. If the cut is executed correctly, the bottle will be sliced, if not it will be knocked out of the way. Cuts are practiced from different angles and combinations put together. This training method helps display to the student any deficiencies in their blade awareness and angling that would not be apparent whilst performing solo or combined forms, nor in technique practice. Our attitude would be - repeatedly training a mistake will ingrain such a mistake, so better iron it out early. Any flaw in this logic???

No i understand your logic,the way i was thought, was cutting newspaper with a bokken you end up with the same result mesurable cuts.
Some people here know me for sanshou kickboxing, those who train with me know its full contact from the off, i.e. full contact sparring ending every class. Beginners spar my good self initially for 5-6 sessions, so I can take them through the dynamics of sanshou, after which they’ve got the idea and some confidence, and are able to spar the other students. I currently have students who are British champions and ranked within the top 5 in semi-pro sanda in Europe. So my method works!
My point, well from the stories I hear from my students, a lot of other teachers don’t allow full contact sparring for a year or more! They state safety concerns etc. that’s fine each to their own but would they be qualified to question my approach???

of course not, but i suspect that kids going home with black eyes might effect class numbers and have a bigger influance on that type of approach then some people let on.