Wouldnt the world be a better place with less religious people?

tolteq

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PDN

Try going to North Korea for a couple of weeks, then you can come back and tells us how nice it was.

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote: »

Try going to North Korea for a couple of weeks, then you can come back and tells us how nice it was.

No go to Sweden. It's really nice.

The Mad Hatter

Less religious people (which is what you said), I imagine yes.

Fewer religious people (which is what you meant), I doubt it.

Gingganggooley

Why the qualification? Why not generalize and say; Wouldn't the world be a better place with less people? Period.

Is not the problem that we all feel as though our way is the right way? Things would greatly improve if more people conformed to my way of thinking and, near Utopia is possible, if I could eradicate those opinions that contradict my own.

Religious people can be annoying and a nuisance at times. This is also true of every other subset into which you could categorise any individual.

What would we lose if we had the power to eliminate those viewpoints that were antithetical to our own worldviews? The irritation, yes. But also, the richness of diversity, colourful contrasts and needful counterpoints.

On balance, I like having people around me. Okay, some further away than others. However, a little friction can, occasionally, generate a lot of warmth.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

Try going to North Korea for a couple of weeks, then you can come back and tells us how nice it was.

I've been in North Korea, albeit for only a week -- two-week visas are difficult to get and involve spending prohibitive amounts of money (thousands of euro), so allow me to say how nice it was

I can confidently report that, the Vatican, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Cuba, Texas and Transnistria included, I've never visited a place where the act of public worship is more important, more organized and consumes more public time, where uncritical adulation of the words, book(s) and reported acts of the leader is more socially necessary, where mass demonstrations of unity are more common(*), and where the minds of the population are more gummed up by a single idea, or at least, each individual's private notion of its public requirements.

Far from being a state where religion is absent, North Korea is the one place which most closely resembles a pure religious polity.

tolteq wrote:

Wouldn't the world be a better place with fewer religious people?

You haven't specified what exactly you mean by "religious" here. But for most of the common meanings, it does unfortunately seem plausible that a community of people who elevate the common good, collegiality and reason above loyalty to their own personal political or religious notions, is likely to be a more agreeable place to live than one in which each individual (or the state) holds their/its own inflexible or dogmatic notions of what constitutes good behavior.

(*) You haven't seen mass regimentation until you've seen the Arirang/Mass Games Festival, and the related film "A State of Mind" is worth 90 minutes of anybody's time.

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Húrin

Tim Robbins wrote: »

No go to Sweden. It's really nice.

Livets Ord

Why do atheists generally seem to think that Sweden is well-run because it is very secular? I would have thought it were the other way round.

Tim Robbins

robindch wrote: »

(*) You haven't seen mass regimentation until you've seen the Arirang/Mass Games Festival, and the related film "A State of Mind" is worth 90 minutes of anybody's time.

I saw that film and we ended up playing the track used in the last 7 minutes (the mass games) at our wedding.
It's an excellent movie.

pts

Húrin wrote: »

Livets Ord

I'm not sure why you put a link to "livets ord", what's that supposed to prove. It is considered a cult by most Swedish people, in a similar leauge to Scientology TM.

robindch

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I saw that film and we ended up playing the track used in the last 7 minutes (the mass games) at our wedding.

I don't have my copy to hand as I'm well out of town at the moment, but isn't that the Arirang song itself? It's a beautiful melody alright -- good call!

Tim Robbins wrote: »

It's an excellent movie.

Yes, it is. Nick Bonner (who runs the tour company I went with, Koryo Tours), also made the film The Game of Their Lives about the soccer team who showed up out of absolutely nowhere and made it to the quarter finals of the 1966 World Cup (and who really should have made it further).

PDN

pts wrote: »

I'm not sure why you put a link to "livets ord", what's that supposed to prove. It is considered a cult by most Swedish people, in a similar leauge to Scientology TM.

I tend to be suspicious when anyone makes assertions about what 'most' people in a country think.

Again not sure how this strengthens your argument. If Sweden is well run because it is secular, isn't that a strong argument for running a cuntry in a more secular way. I've got a feeling you wouldn't like introducing some secular ideas from Sweden, such as making abortions & gay marriage legal though.

The phrase 'the other way round' means 'the opposite'. So Hurin would appear to be suggesting that Sweden is secular because its well run.

That, sociologically, makes perfect sense. Countries with long exposure to, and culturally influenced by, Protestant Christian values often become more prosperous and more tolerant. This in turn tends to encourage secularism, and high numbers of non-religious among the population.

Lovethinking

tolteq wrote: »

...

"Imagine" that.

Perhaps this is a good opportunity to make the distinction between "religious" people and "True" Christians.
A true Christian puts his fellow man first regardless of race, colour, creed, geography... "Love God and love your neighbour"... Jesus set the example in this.

Perhaps I should leave it to the you to define what you mean by "religious" people.
I expect that you may be referring to the fact that most religions seem to instill a "you are part of our club" mentallity which often creates divisions or a "holier than thou" attitude.
I must add though... I have some aunties who are quite religious (perhaps devoted would be more accurate) and I would consider them to be really lovely people who truly add something positive to this world.

pts

PDN wrote: »

I tend to be suspicious when anyone makes assertions about what 'most' people in a country think.

I agree with this, statements about the feeling of a population can be very hard to back up as factual. Even seemingly scientific methods such as statistics can let you down (see for example the Bradley effect).
I assumed I was allowed to make a more qualitative statement. It is far from uncommon to see statements such as "most Christians" on this forum, I assumed I could do the same.

PDN wrote: »

The phrase 'the other way round' means 'the opposite'. So Hurin would appear to be suggesting that Sweden is secular because its well run.

I am well aware of what "the other way around" means, no need to be condescending. I replied too quickly and tried making a stealth edit, and I would have gotten away with it too if i wasn't for you meddling mods and your pesky dog!

Neither PDN or Húrin have managed to explain the relevance of "livets ord" yet though. Still curious about this one.

philologos

My opinion would be the reverse of the OP: I believe the world would be a better place with more Christians truly devoted to the Gospel message rather than less.

Lovethinking

Jakkass wrote: »

My opinion would be the reverse of the OP: I believe the world would be a better place with more Christians truly devoted to the Gospel message rather than less.

I agree with the latter, but I am guessing that the OP was not referring to true Christians when he said "religious".
In my experience, the majority who are heavily involved with religion lose sight of the point (Love) and are too preoccupied within doctrines, laws and judging others. Nevertheless, the few who choose to learn with humility from Christ benefit by becoming wiser and more loving than they would have been without him.

Tim Robbins

robindch wrote: »

I don't have my copy to hand as I'm well out of town at the moment, but isn't that the Arirang song itself? It's a beautiful melody alright -- good call!Yes, it is. Nick Bonner (who runs the tour company I went with, Koryo Tours), also made the film The Game of Their Lives about the soccer team who showed up out of absolutely nowhere and made it to the quarter finals of the 1966 World Cup (and who really should have made it further).

There are two pieces. The UK version and the American version of the DVD use different music.

Yes the movie is amazing. It's certainly had George Orwell's 1984 and Plato's cave written all over it.

It seems a strange to use North Korea as an example which has a society with no religion. To me its the most extreme form of religion possible. There didn't see any room whatsoever for any free - thinking or rational enquiry.

The problem with these types of arguments (and the OP's question) is how you define the word "religion". Colin Mcginn made a good philosophical point that groups that don't welcome rational criticism from outside that group are just dangerous no matter what they are. Fantatical Muslims or the KKK. So that's what I would say about some religions or systems such as North Korea. There's just not enough outside criticism.

Religions where there is a lot of outside criticism e.g. the Anglican Church in the 21st century as opposed to the 17th aren't as dangerous.

PDN

Lovethinking wrote: »

I agree with the latter, but I am guessing that the OP was not referring to true Christians when he said "religious".
In my experience, the majority who are heavily involved with religion lose sight of the point (Love) and are too preoccupied within doctrines, laws and judging others. Nevertheless, the few who choose to learn with humility from Christ benefit by becoming wiser and more loving than they would have been without him.

And do you include yourself as one of these 'humble' few who are so much better than the judgemental majority?

MrPudding

Jakkass wrote: »

My opinion would be the reverse of the OP: I believe the world would be a better place with more Christians truly devoted to the Gospel message rather than less.

In fairness, you could insert anything there. The world would be a better place if everyone or indeed more people held the same belief structure. Obviously there would be less conflict. If the belief structure also promoted being nice to each other, then even better.

“The world would be a better place with more humanists” or “More people who follow the golden rule” are equally valid statements which describe conditions which would be as good for the human race as a whole as christianity, or indeed arguably better.

MrP

LoveDucati2

Lovethinking wrote: »

A true Christian puts his fellow man first regardless of race, colour, creed, geography...

Lovethinking wrote: »

In my experience, the majority who are heavily involved with religion lose sight of the point (Love) and are too preoccupied within doctrines, laws and judging others.

These are excellent points.

Religion is all about forgiveness.

philologos

Lovethinking: I agree with you to an extent, but there are other teachings in Christianity too. Of course we should forgive. Christianity is about forgiveness if you think of the whole purpose of crucifixion.

Lovethinking

Jakkass wrote: »

Lovethinking: I agree with you to an extent, but there are other teachings in Christianity too. Of course we should forgive. Christianity is about forgiveness if you think of the whole purpose of crucifixion.

Jesus said "Love God and love your neighbour, on this the whole law and the prophets hang"
Everything roots back to love....
Why not steal?... because it hurts our neighbour/God.
Why not murder?... because it hurts our neighbour/God.
etc......

What do ye think?

docmol

Húrin wrote: »

Livets Ord

Why do atheists generally seem to think that Sweden is well-run because it is very secular? I would have thought it were the other way round.

Do you mean it's secular because it's very well run?

랴연

PDN wrote: »

Try going to North Korea for a couple of weeks, then you can come back and tells us how nice it was.

Been there, done that. Might be going again if things calm down a bit.

Yes your right PDN, North Korea shows us the evils of religion more clearly than any other state has ever done. Worship of the great leader and complete faith in the party is almost absolute.

Phototoxin

No go to Sweden. It's really nice.

That advanced, non poverty stricken first world country where gender selective abortion is legal? Go feminism & athiest! Kill those girlies! Hopefuly then there'll be less feminazis in future.