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For Sale Rules Discussion

  • 10-04-2009 6:43am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,581
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    Folks, off adverts selling attracts a 1 month ban from adverts, and will also attract a no warning ban from this forum as well.

    Per Adverts mods: adverts rules still apply to items posted there and that anybody found to be involved in off thread dealing will be banned from adverts for a month. That is the standard ban now.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,222 Lumen
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    uberwolf wrote: »
    Folks, off adverts selling attracts a 1 month ban from adverts, and will also attract a no warning ban from this forum as well.

    Per Adverts mods: adverts rules still apply to items posted there and that anybody found to be involved in off thread dealing will be banned from adverts for a month. That is the standard ban now.

    Do you have a link explaining the problems that required these rules/penalties? I couldn't find any real explanation in the sticky.

    What if I sell an item to a boardsie after a discussion on a spin? That's presumably "off adverts selling" too?

    Not attempting to be facetious.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Chips Lovell
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    The rules do say that the "only exception to this is with high value items such as motor vehicles, where a viewing would need to be organised before a sale is agreed". I'm guessing the same applies to bikes, given that 1.) some bikes would go for more than a second hand car and 2.) there are few people who'd buy a whole bike or even a set of wheels without seeing them first. I sold a set of pedals to Lumen a while back and he wanted to see them first, which is fair enough I think.

    The thing I'm confused about with Adverts.ie is how you end an ad. Say for example I've got an ad up for a few weeks and receive no decent offers. Does it expire after a while? Or can you delete the ad? Or does it just stay there forever and if so what are the rules about selling something elsewhere after a reasonable amount of time has passed?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,584 Steve
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    Hey folks, I'm not in any way going to intrude on the cycling mods here but you are all very welcome to ask these questions on the adverts.ie support forum where you can get definite answers from us.
    The rules are complex and have been shaped over the years to something that works - even now we are looking into a major re-vamp to try and make life easier for everyone.

    Anyway, we're more than willing to help you out, just ask in support or feel free to pm me with any questions if there's anything you're unsure about.

    Regards,
    Steve.

    Adverts.ie Sports & Fitness Equipment FS moderator.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,581 uberwolf
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    Steve wrote: »
    Hey folks, I'm not in any way going to intrude on the cycling mods here but you are all very welcome to ask these questions on the adverts.ie support forum where you can get definite answers from us.
    The rules are complex and have been shaped over the years to something that works - even now we are looking into a major re-vamp to try and make life easier for everyone.

    Anyway, we're more than willing to help you out, just ask in support or feel free to pm me with any questions if there's anything you're unsure about.

    Regards,
    Steve.

    Adverts.ie Sports & Fitness Equipment FS moderator.

    Folks, this has somewhat been delivered from on high.

    Every thread advertising an item for sale MUST reference an adverts.ie ad. Ban and deleted post otherwise.

    I don't want to see any in thread dealing either. All discussion about the item should be hosted on adverts.ie

    as for off thread dealing, that's not my remit. It's up to the adverts mods to police this.

    The alternative is that we allow no threads or posts highlighting items for sale. Which will be the consequence of persistent infringements.


  • Posts: 16,720 [Deleted User]
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    uberwolf wrote: »
    Folks, this has somewhat been delivered from on high.

    Every thread advertising an item for sale MUST reference an adverts.ie ad. Ban and deleted post otherwise.

    I don't want to see any in thread dealing either. All discussion about the item should be hosted on adverts.ie

    as for off thread dealing, that's not my remit. It's up to the adverts mods to police this.

    The alternative is that we allow no threads or posts highlighting items for sale. Which will be the consequence of persistent infringements.

    Think there might be a demand to ask for a cycling adverts forum yet? May help the cause.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,222 Lumen
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    Dónal wrote: »
    Think there might be a demand to ask for a cycling adverts forum yet? May help the cause.

    Or at least a separate category in adverts.ie. Sports and Fitness Equipment, FFS. :confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,183 Quigs Snr
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    A cycling for sale forum ? Is there a demand ? I am not against it, it certainly couldn't hurt but more so than most the cycling forum is a true community and if they are happy to deal with each other in a dedicated thread whats the problem ? If people want to throw it open to a wider forum (largely pointless considering the specialist nature of many of the items in question here)they know where adverts.ie is.

    Seems like duplication of effort and process for the sake of it (and many of us get enough of that nine to five every day). What is the benefit ? Are people complaining of rule infringements on this thread, are people being ripped off etc... ? What about the post I put up on this page ? Thats more of a bargain alert strictly speaking and not much different to me putting up a link on the motors forum to a car on carzone that I think is a particularly good deal, do I have to put that up in Bargain Alerts and then link to it ? Many of the posts on this thread are potential swaps, do they need to go into the swap forum ? That wouldn't make sense, if I want a mountainbike wheel in exchange for a set of forks I am more likely to find it on the cycling forum then on the swap forum.

    I think if we are going to all jump onboard with this (and I am sure I am not the only one unconvinced by the whole thing), then a few more hard and fast guidelines will be required to avoid confusion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ROK ON
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    @Quigs: Have to say that I agree. I would not bother searching adverts as I am not seeking to buy anything.
    However, I was impressed by the bargain - it defintely caught my eye.
    So in that sense, your friend may get a sale on the basis that someone is arroused by a bargain, whilst not actively looking to purchase an item.
    If rules were to be very strictly enforced, it maybe counterproductive, and against the general interests of the folks that generally frequent this forum.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,581 uberwolf
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    Quigs Snr wrote: »
    1A cycling for sale forum ? Is there a demand ? I am not against it, it certainly couldn't hurt but more so than most the cycling forum is a true community and if they are happy to deal with each other in a dedicated thread whats the problem ? If people want to throw it open to a wider forum (largely pointless considering the specialist nature of many of the items in question here)they know where adverts.ie is.

    Seems like duplication of effort and process for the sake of it (and many of us get enough of that nine to five every day). What is the benefit ? Are people complaining of rule infringements on this thread, are people being ripped off etc... ? 2What about the post I put up on this page ? Thats more of a bargain alert strictly speaking and not much different to me putting up a link on the motors forum to a car on carzone that I think is a particularly good deal, do I have to put that up in Bargain Alerts and then link to it ? Many of the posts on this thread are potential swaps, do they need to go into the swap forum ? That wouldn't make sense, if I want a mountainbike wheel in exchange for a set of forks I am more likely to find it on the cycling forum then on the swap forum.

    3I think if we are going to all jump onboard with this (and I am sure I am not the only one unconvinced by the whole thing), then a few more hard and fast guidelines will be required to avoid confusion.

    First of all, to be clear, I'm making this up as I go along.
    I've been asked to ensure that activities on the cycling forum are not duplicating the purpose of adverts.ie. Adverts has the priority, man power, and framework to deal with the sale of items.

    This thread was started because I didn't feel adverts.ie facilitated the cycling community on this forum. The intention was/is that people can be alerted to items on adverts. Simple as really.

    1. Cycling for sale forum - no. Adverts is going to be substantially revamped. I expect the success of this thread, and the attention it has garnered will ensure a cycling specific section. There may be a way of integrating adverts into a cycling forum front page.

    2. I was thinking about that. I can't see a problem with that. TBH, I don't think boards is in that place. How it relates back is that the cycling forum isn't going to host adverts. Adverts can do it instead, but I don't think boards is mandating the use of adverts.

    3. I refer to my original point. I'm not going to ban because of a grey area, we'll have to tighten as we go.


  • Posts: 16,720 [Deleted User]
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    By cycling adverts forum I meant a dedicated section on adverts for cycling, rather than on boards.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,183 Quigs Snr
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    Thanks for clearing that up Uber.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,581 uberwolf
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    I'll take that 105 derailler off you. Will PM you during the week to arrange meeting up

    negotiation has to happen on adverts.ie. No negotiation on the cycling forum.

    Lads, it's a long time since I've banned someone. Lets keep it that way


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,431 zzzzzzzz
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    uberwolf wrote: »
    negotiation has to happen on adverts.ie. No negotiation on the cycling forum.

    Lads, it's a long time since I've banned someone. Lets keep it that way

    sorry!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,318 Raam
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    http://www.adverts.ie/showproduct.php?product=109555
    the training jacket on adverts
    just to cover my ass, these rules are pretty annoying.

    Agreed. These new rules are not serving us. The old way was fine.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,584 Steve
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    Hi guys,

    Neil started a thread on adverts help desk looking for a separate section for high end cycling stuff.

    I've moved it to support so that anyone can reply to it (not just amods) and I'd like to invite you all to share your thoughts on how it would work / what you would want from it.

    I'm not saying it'll happen - that's not my call to make but all input will be considered and welcomed.

    Thread here.

    Thanks,
    Steve.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Chips Lovell
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Lads, I think even the cycling mods can't do much about it given that there is a Boardswide rule that all selling should be done on adverts.ie.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,222 Lumen
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    Lads, I think even the cycling mods can't do much about it given that there is a Boardswide rule that all selling should be done on adverts.ie.

    Apologist. ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,676 Gavin
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    Lads, I think even the cycling mods can't do much about it given that there is a Boardswide rule that all selling should be done on adverts.ie.

    ok so this really isn't an adverts.ie issue. Can the Cycling Mods clarify exactly what the position is? I'm aware of the commerical interaction stuff going on, but trading between regulars really doesn't fall under that category.

    Is there a particular reason we can't just work things as they were, people post up what they have either in one fixed thread, or in individual threads (personal preference). If they want, they can stick it on adverts as well, but by doing that we are then bound by all the adverts rules, which aren't really designed for dealings between people who know each other.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,581 uberwolf
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    Raam wrote: »
    Agreed. These new rules are not serving us. The old way was fine.

    The administrators of this website have decreed it so. And whilst you might have been served just fine by the old way, the site is easier to administrate and police their way.

    If you feel you have a valid argument against it, start a feedback thread, and you may have some success changing their thinking.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,995 blorg
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    @Uberwolf- might be worthwhile to seperate out all this discussion of the rules etc. into a new thread?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,676 Gavin
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    uberwolf wrote: »
    The administrators of this website have decreed it so. And whilst you might have been served just fine by the old way, the site is easier to administrate and police their way.

    If you feel you have a valid argument against it, start a feedback thread, and you may have some success changing their thinking.

    Stuck a thread on feedback looking for clarification on the rules
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055549593


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,676 Gavin
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    If anyone wants to row in on the thread as well.. I don't want to be pushing something which no one else actually wants


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,581 uberwolf
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    My understanding of the rule and rationale.

    Adverts.ie was spawned from adverts forums, designed for the community at large, and not the individual communities that have now formed as boards has grown.

    Adverts has the infrastructure, rules and moderators to faithfully govern, as experience over there has guided.

    Adverts is due for a MAJOR overhaul to catch up with the fact that it has taken on a life of its own.

    The thread here was instigated for a few reasons.
      adverts doesn't have a specialist section
    • there is a community on this forum, which may wish to trade amongst themselves
    • Allow people discuss items on adverts, which they can't do on adverts
    • allow people alert community to items they have, whilst opening themselves up to criticism of item.

    I don't see that the current set up is that terrible, albeit cumbersome.

    Step 1. If selling item, place on adverts.ie (free service) or an alternative buyandsell, etc.
    Step 2. Post link and brief description in dedicated thread.
    Step 3. Be prepared to answer Q's on either thread, within charter for either place.
    Step 4. Discussion of price, offers are to be hosted exclusively on adverts.ie if that is the service selected at Step 1. If alternative host has been selected, use PM's or that alternate host.
    Idiots guide is if you're asking a question that includes a €sign, or whose answer will require a €sign, it's a question suited for adverts.ie rather than here.

    I'm sure there will be gray area's, and we'll (I'll) deal with those as they arise, clarifying all the while.

    I will ask the question at a higher table, to see if alternate host at Step 1 is acceptable, or whether the admins are going to demand it be adverts exclusively. That'd be a little corporate for my liking, making me a corporate groupie rather than corporate whore. But it's their site (and it does have to be paid for somehow).

    There will be things I haven't thought of.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,676 Gavin
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    uberwolf wrote: »
    • there is a community on this forum, which may wish to trade amongst themselves
    • Allow people discuss items on adverts, which they can't do on adverts
    • allow people alert community to items they have, whilst opening themselves up to criticism of item.

    I don't see that the current set up is that terrible, albeit cumbersome.

    Step 1. If selling item, place on adverts.ie (free service) or an alternative buyandsell, etc.
    [...]
    I will ask the question at a higher table, to see if alternate host at Step 1 is acceptable, or whether the admins are going to demand it be adverts exclusively. That'd be a little corporate for my liking, making me a corporate groupie rather than corporate whore. But it's their site (and it does have to be paid for somehow).

    There will be things I haven't thought of.

    The issues which you summarised in the three points above are pretty much the crux of it alright. Using adverts denies the flexibility to sell to whom one wants, in the manner that one wants. If the admins say tough, everything must be sold on adverts, fine not much we can do about that. However, from the discussion on the thread in feedback, it appears to be the case that it is not a fixed rule that all trading must be done on adverts.

    It would be preferable to get an admin to comment on the feedback thread rather than in the Mod forum, so we can all interact with them and work our fantastically suave and persuasive techniques on them.

    A small point, but I don't think that the admins are so concerned about covering costs that they will require all sales to go through adverts to generate advertisement revenue.

    As a potential solution, the private subforum idea mentioned by Steve strikes me as a nice compromise.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,001 scottreynolds
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    uberwolf wrote: »
    My understanding of the rule and rationale.

    Adverts.ie was spawned from adverts forums, designed for the community at large, and not the individual communities that have now formed as boards has grown.

    Based on the fact that their is a community of cyclists here that may wish to trade amongst themselves I think its fair that we should be able to post things not for sale to the general public, ie on adverts, another way.

    Take the recent sale of a boards jacket. The entire audience is this board no where else -- posting on adverts was taking the piss a bit.

    Where someone wants to sell a bike I'd like a first refusal so it would be nice to allow people to post it here and give them an opportunity to buy it. Some of us here would rather sell to our community friends than Joe Blow. Others won't care but we need a way to have a choice.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,860 TinyExplosions
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    Some of us here would rather sell to our community friends than Joe Blow.

    He makes god pumps though...

    sorry, I'll get me coat


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 578 stuf
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    I think one of the problems here has been that all the talk of instant bans when honest mistakes have been made has seemed very heavy handed to those of us who were used to the old ways.

    I haven't read this whole thread but I would hope that the trade/swap activity is not part of the contention although this may produce some grey areas seeing as some people put stuff there for sale or swap but preferring the swap option.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,676 Gavin
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    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60034925&postcount=37

    Synopsis, we get a sub-forum for selling, at least in the short term. Deadly, let's go wild.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 seamus
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    It's worth noting that adverts.ie rules will still apply over there. That is, if you list something over there and also over here, you'll be banned from adverts. :) That's the "off-thread" rule.
    You can make up your own rules over here in reality, we trust you not to sell anything illegal or to try and sell eachother goats or shotguns or whatever :)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,222 Lumen
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    seamus wrote: »
    It's worth noting that adverts.ie rules will still apply over there. That is, if you list something over there and also over here, you'll be banned from adverts. :) That's the "off-thread" rule.:)

    I'm confused again. I thought that's exactly what we'd been advised to do for the last few weeks with the "For Sale" thread?


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Chips Lovell
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Lumen wrote: »
    I'm confused again. I thought that's exactly what we'd been advised to do for the last few weeks with the "For Sale" thread?

    Now it's either one or the other. If you list it on adverts, you have to follow the adverts rules re. off-thread dealing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 seamus
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    Sorry, I should clarify.
    My understanding is that the new sub-forum is for actually hosting the sales here ourselves and not just alerting the cycling forum to stuff which is for sale.

    Previously, you could list stuff here, but all dealing had to take place on adverts.ie. Now you'll have a forum where you can complete the sale here. But only here :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 seamus
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    Lumen, you asked
    Do you have a link explaining the problems that required these rules/penalties? I couldn't find any real explanation in the sticky.
    way earlier and I don't know if anyone answered it.

    The "off-adverts" rule is a pain in the ass and seems to catch a lot of people out. It all stems from the original for sale boards and the early days of adverts. There was a spate (and I mean every 3rd sale) of people who'd be offered their asking price, only to put up a post saying, "Oh my mate/brother/cousin/guy on buyandsell just offered me €10 more, can you match that?". This went on for a while, and it turned out that some people did this for everything they put for sale, and soon enough lots of others copped on that they could do this too. It's a problem fairly unique to boards because we host discussion of the sale on the site.
    This is why the rule was brought in that you list on adverts.ie only or you go somewhere else; Cos people were getting dragged into auctions against phantom bidders and the subsequent fights over it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,222 Lumen
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    Thanks seamus, that makes more sense.

    I'd still be in favour of letting people sort it out amongst themselves. If I'd offered the asking price and someone tried to get me to participate in an auction I'd just take back my offer and walk away.

    A public adverts site will tend to have 50% of participants with below-average intelligence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 seamus
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    Lumen wrote: »
    I'd still be in favour of letting people sort it out amongst themselves. If I'd offered the asking price and someone tried to get me to participate in an auction I'd just take back my offer and walk away.
    Me too. I think the problem was that people were acting the prick, and there was nothing to stop them from constantly relisting the same item and continually acting the prick.

    I'm not privvy to any of the details of what's planned for ads.ie but I get the impression that they'll be removing the interactivity of it - people can ask questions privately which the seller can answer, but otherwise all sales/negotiations will take place in private and people can do whatever the hell they like then.


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