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Troublemaking Brother

  • 09-07-2007 1:45pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 163
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    My brother is nearly 23 years of age and for the last 8 years we have had nothing but trouble with him. He lacks self confidence and from what i can see has no common sense whatsoever. He has stolen huge amounts of money from my parents, forged their cheques and cashed them, robbed their pass cards taken money and returned the passcards to wallets, ran away from home, cant hold down a job for more than a few months and then my dad goes out and finds him a job. Every room in the house now has a lock on it so that he cant get at anything. we have trouble most times my parents go away with coke in the house, drink, people we dont know, having to kick them out calling the cops on him etc etc. He was in a car accident last year, he wasnt driving but the people he was with he knew they were off their faces etc, the accident was pretty serious the driver was on life support, but still that didnt knock sense into him, he thought he was the man bragging to all his mates etc etc.

    So last friday night, get home from work and im upstairs in my room look out the window see this guy walkin up the drive (complete scumbag) didnt recognise him but thought nothing of it, you never know what your gonna get at the door with my bro. about five minutes later i hear my mam yelling so i flew down the stairs and see these two knackers not one now but two in the hall, i lost my reason with them and slammed my front door shut and manouevered myself in between the door and them and f*cked them out of it screaming at them what the hell where they doing in our house, but they pushed by me anyway and out into the drive (im a girl by the way, and at the time it was just myself, my 2 bro's and my mam at home) so i followed them out, their car was parked across the road away from the house, and was screaming my head off at them i made a complete show of myself at this time i didnt really know what had happened but they told me that my bro owed them money and that he would be in a hearse next week etc etc so i went back into the house, there was blood everywhere in the kitchen, they had clearly given him a hiding, my mam was upset my other brother was screaming his head off at the other brother and i called the cops, my dad wasnt home and we had to call him to come home and my oldest brother is married so he had to be called home too.

    I dont know why im even posting this but im at the end of my mind here, my brother is still lying and saying the money was for drink??? how can he think we are that thick, we paid off his dealer for him. we made calls about the guy who called to the house he is a dangerous b*stard. what do i do? we have rang various helplines they keep saying he has to admit it. surely there must be something we can do? we must be able to force him into a centre, he is putting our lives in danger, my parents are talking about selling the house they have lived in for 35 years, my mother is afraid of her life, im having nightmares and to top it all off the brother hasnt even apologised. he doesnt see anything wrong. he thinks we are mad? the only reason why he is still living in the house is because my mam wouldnt put him out before now. i dont know what im looking for here. i think i just needed to vent. thanks anyway.


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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 MagicMarker
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    Kick him out and forget about him.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 January
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    Kick him out... Seriously, tough love is the only way to go. It may break your mothers heart but if he's denying it he doesn't want help and if you want to avoid bringing trouble to your door then the only way to do it is not to have him living in your house.

    Maybe if he lives on the street for a while he will open his eyes to what he's doing. Probably not though. I have two uncles who are addicts and an aunt who's an alcoholic. They've never tried to get help, they've denied they have problems and even when we pay thousands of euros to try send them to rehab clinics they just leave.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,608 Spud83
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    I'm sure this is avery hard time for your whole family and I hope you seek help yourselves. As far as i now there are many support groups out there for the families of addicts.

    I know you dont want to kick him out but this may be the only answer if he refuses treatment. I would get in touch with supports groups, clinics and see if you can get him checked in anywhere against his will. This will only get worse if you let his behaviour continue.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,331 bronte
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    Jesus, I'm so sorry you and your family had to go through that.
    There's nothing more horrible than being afraid in your own home.
    Your brother is addicted to the drink/drugs and my father (who deals with addicts in work) told me many's a time that when dealing with an addict you aren't talking to the real person, you're talking to the addiction.
    People can stay in denial for a long time.
    It's true he will need to recognize his problem , and maybe other posters have more advice on how to encourage him to do that.
    If you can, try and be supportive of your mum and dad, and little brother...while your other brother finds his way through this tough time.
    People can turn their whole life around if it's what they really want , and I hope for your brother's sake he will realize this sooner rather than later.

    In the meantime look after yourself, My heart goes out to you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 LegacyUser
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    Hi Op- I can feel the misery your family is going through. The advice I am going to give to you is prob not what you want to hear....

    I was in a situation with a close family member where they owed money and the people they owed money too began contacting us about the money (the family member didn't live with us and it was drink not drugs). When I confronted them - they said they didn't have a problem, etc etc - same as your brother. As it had gotten to a stage where the family member had to leave where they lived the only choice the family member had (in ther eyes) - was my home. I told him that in no way was he living with me and that the only choice was an addiction center or a homeless shelter. (Just so you know you cannot force someone in for treatment and unless they have medical insurance - vhi - for a private clinic the waiting list can be quite long). When they still refused to go to the center I drove straight to the homeless shelter and then began to drive away. This was the turning point. He agreed to go to the addiction centre for help. My point is that you will get to a stage where you have had enough - that might be now it might be further down the road. I understand you love your brother but you and your family are enabling him, his behaviour and his addiction. After going to numerous group sessions in the addicition center the one thing that I throughly agree with is that you have to let them fall to their worse. This will be really hard on you and your family because it's in our nature to want to help those we love.
    However you have to be mentally able and at the last straw to be able for this (walking away). I know what I have written here sounds very calleous but he needs to decide himself when he reaches rock bottom. For my family member that was having to go to a homeless shelter. Although there are times when he falls he is mainly sober and loving his new life.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 LegacyUser
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    Just to add to my previous post - you need to look after the family and to do that - it prob means kicking your brother out of the house - hence my story above...Also there are support groups for families if you need them...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 frobisher
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    It sounds like you want to do everything you can for him. And you should....BUT...there has to be a point where his actions aren't going to improve and as a result he is going to damage others around him no matter how much help he is given. I wouldn't dare to suggest that that point is now but it is something to be aware of. What I'd suggest is sitting down with everyone in the family, except your brother, and drawing a line in the sand with the idea that if he crosses it you will have to bring all contact with him to a minimum no matter what happens. Then approach him as a unit and tell him where that line is and what the consequences will be if he crosses it. I'd also suggest agreeing to let him have one chance but to not tell him about it. He is family after all. Let him get a taste of what it would be like if the family were forced to shut the door on him, it might be enough to bring him round. If he abuses that twice well then he's probably going to do it a million times over. If things reach that crisis point and you've given him a second chance that he abuses I'd say close the door but after a long time try and show him that there is a route back by completely changing his ways. But don't open the door permanantly until you feel he deserves it. The simple reality is that even if he is a nightmare your family won't be happy by simply turning their back on him so you need to get very, very tough but always let him know that there is a way back (e.g. full time job/training course/counselling etc). That way even if you turns his back on you it's not because you haven't done everything possible for him.

    I've seen this kind of thing first hand and have been amazed at the results. One guy I know was just an incredible nightmare with stories like the above and worse. His family used to get calls from the police in foreign countries that they didn't even know he has in saying he is in prison hospitals etc. Crazy stuff. Everyone thought he was on a slippy route to jail or suicide but he got a bit older managed to find a little bit of maturity and all the madness is behind him. He's know got himself gardening equipment and makes a quite living with it. It's actually quite remarkable and it has done his family and their relationship unbeleivable good.
    Be strong and be fair but don't let yourselves be dragged down.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 330 xxdilemmaxx
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    Hi - I have to agree with all the posters here, I am in a similar situation at the moment with my brother who is 21. This has been going on for about three years gradually worsening all the time.

    My brother was getting into trouble with the police, being violent in the family home and generally acting exactly how your brother is.

    Things came to a head when my mother went out into the street at about 2am after hearing shouting to find him in a fight with two guys, she ran over to try to get him back into the house, he pushed her over, she landed on glass and needed 15 stitches. After that my Dad threw him out of the house. For a while he got worse, he was living on the streets, drinking constantly and the whole family were absolutely sick with worry.

    Anyway to make a long story short, he approached my parents about a month ago and asked them to help, he has been attending AA, has started an apprenticeship and now is seeing a girl, fingers crossed now he has finally seen the light.

    It's so unbelievably hard to do but you really have to let go and let them hit rock bottom, believe me, we tried talking to him, pleading and begging, it was only when the family disowned him did he start to cop on (even then it took months).

    Best of luck with this and remember do not let it take over your life, I ended up becoming so stressed I was getting panic attacks.

    Hope it goes well for you


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,375 kmick
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    I agree - time for him to go. This is only going to get worse and for the sake of the rest of your family the locks need to be changed. Sit him down and tell him the next time there is any issues he is out. The when the inevitable issue happens explain calmly that he has taken the decision out of your hands. Ring the police and have him removed. Then get a barring order which will mean he cannot come back to the house. If he is smart he will try and sort himself out. If not who knows. Either way be supportive and help him out in any way you can short of giving him money or allowing him back in the house.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,798 Mr. Incognito
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    Whoa people this is a human being not a dog. You can't just put him out.

    I'm sorry but if you spoil a child for years this is what happens.

    Firstly you need to sit down and see what exactly is going on. How much does he owe the dealer etc.

    Have a chat with the local Guards if possible, they are the people who have experience with this. Your brother needs to get some help, fast. Professional help. Your parents need to cop on and stop treating him like a baby. This molly-cuddling is what got him in this situation in the first place. What the hell is your father getting him a job for. Why would he stay in any job, He hasn't earned it on his merits. He needs to have some self worth and self respect. But the immediate problem of the dealer needs to be dealt with first.

    Perhaps the guards may be the best place to turn.

    People should be ashamed here. It's easy to say throw him out when it's someone else's brother. What if it was yours!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 LegacyUser
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    SetantaL wrote:
    Whoa people this is a human being not a dog. You can't just put him out.

    I'm sorry but if you spoil a child for years this is what happens.

    Firstly you need to sit down and see what exactly is going on. How much does he owe the dealer etc.

    Have a chat with the local Guards if possible, they are the people who have experience with this. Your brother needs to get some help, fast. Professional help. Your parents need to cop on and stop treating him like a baby. This molly-cuddling is what got him in this situation in the first place. What the hell is your father getting him a job for. Why would he stay in any job, He hasn't earned it on his merits. He needs to have some self worth and self respect. But the immediate problem of the dealer needs to be dealt with first.

    Perhaps the guards may be the best place to turn.

    People should be ashamed here. It's easy to say throw him out when it's someone else's brother. What if it was yours!

    I'm guessing you haven't dealt with a close family member with an addiction problem.

    The guards will not get involved - its nothing to do with them - they will just tell the OP to contact a support group or try and convince him to go to rehab

    The op can certainty talk to her brother and if that works then of course that would be teh route to go. But from years of dealing with it - and I'm really wondering if you have had any dealings with someone with a serious addiction problem - they are the most manipulative people in the world - they will tell you what you want to hear and never actually do what they had promised.

    It gets to a stage where you cannot allow an addicted person to ruin your life and put your own family in danger (which the op brother did or may do in the future).

    If you look at any addiction information site they will tell you that you need them to hit rock bottom and that is not possible if the family is protecting him (paying back the money, putting a roof over his head etc).

    As i said it seems calleous but may not seem calleous to someone who has dealt with a person with an addiction (see the other posters who have also dealt with family members with addictions). Families have been destroyed trying to protect family members who are addicts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 163 Busterpuss
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    thanks for the comments guys.

    setanta L, my brother has never been spoiled he was treated as equally as the rest of us, my father was trying to help out his son in getting him a job.

    we have all talked to him together and seperately. it doesnt work, he doesnt listen. and drinknotdrugs, you are right, the cops dont want to know, they just want us to press charges to get the dealer off the streets. we have paid the dealer in full and he told us, "i get a slap, someone else has to get a slap".

    I think we do have to put him out but i dont know if i will be able to live with myself or my mother wouldnt either


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,893 Canis Lupus
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    SetantaL wrote:

    People should be ashamed here. It's easy to say throw him out when it's someone else's brother. What if it was yours!

    I'd kick the fcuker out.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,267 Elessar
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    I'm so sorry OP for what you are going through.

    I have no experience with the matter but perhaps tough love is needed. I agree with the poster above, it's easier said than done when it's your own flesh and blood who you love.

    OP please keep in mind his mental state if you kick him out. Keep a close eye on him, he sounds depressed aswell as addicted. For some people I would imagine they would commit suicide or attempt to do so if they found out that their family has abandoned them and kicked them out. It depends on the person though - do you think his actions are some kind of cry for help or is he just thick? I would imagine that a lot of the time it is the former. Please keep this in mind.

    Another thing to suggest is recording his bad behavior on video next time it happens, then play it back to him in front of the whole family and ask him is that acceptable. Looking at things from an objective viewpoint is often a great way to see what is really going on.

    Keep us updated!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 LegacyUser
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    Busterpuss wrote:
    thanks for the comments guys.

    setanta L, my brother has never been spoiled he was treated as equally as the rest of us, my father was trying to help out his son in getting him a job.

    we have all talked to him together and seperately. it doesnt work, he doesnt listen. and drinknotdrugs, you are right, the cops dont want to know, they just want us to press charges to get the dealer off the streets. we have paid the dealer in full and he told us, "i get a slap, someone else has to get a slap".

    I think we do have to put him out but i dont know if i will be able to live with myself or my mother wouldnt either

    It's really difficulty because you feel like you are turning your back on them. However you will get to a point where you are mentally able and ready to do it -- And stand to by that and any other decision.

    It took me years before I got to that point so I know it is not easy. I just wanted to let you know that you do not have to feel guilty - that was the hardest thing that we had to get over - you feel like you are deserting them. However they have deserted you alreday when the addiction took over. You need to remember that you need to look after your own family.

    In the end I'm glad that is the route I took because it really shook him up. And I believe saved him in the long run. He had been to 5 rehabs before this but he always knew that we would pick up the pieces if he went back on the drink. Well I swore not this time and told him that I would be here to support the whole way through but I wasn't fixing any more messes created by his drinking. He knows that I am serious. He has had a few relapses which we have helped him through by getting him back into aa. However on a whole he is sober and really enjoying life.

    I hope everything works out for you and your family and expecially your brother.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 LegacyUser
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    Iv been floating round this forum for a while going un-reged


    I'm going through something similar myself at the moment and i know its a hard lesson but you have no option but to kick him out.

    If you don't things get worse and worse for your family.

    Its up to him to want treatment and there is nothing you can do bar draw the situation out until you have no choice left but to kick him out for your own safety.

    I suggest you seek counseling for you and your family so you can meet people in the same situation because trust me it helps.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,798 Mr. Incognito
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    I'm guessing you haven't dealt with a close family member with an addiction problem.

    God what a condecending statement. Your brother had an addiciton and you're the grand expert. I personally am a recovering addict. I had a a drug addiction that I'm not going to go into here but I was on the edge. Your comments actually make my blood boil.

    The people in my life I thought i could rely on turned their back on me. Do you think it is that easy, "oh, everybody hates me so I better become a better person" it doesn't work like that. Addicts need help. One of my friends got me into concelling and gave me a place to stay and honestly saved my life. They need to understand they have a problem. Throwing people out onto the street isn't an addict cure all. In fact in many cases it makes the addiction worse as people turn to drugs to escape the new more messed up reality of the situation. Your brother is relapsing. Your tough love condecending approach isn't 100% then. Why don't you try LISTENING to him instead of TALKING down to him.

    I'm trying not to go on a rant but this attitude is so typical of modern day Ireland. You have a problem out you go, only shiny happy people allowed. If you treat people like scum they believe they are. It wasn't until I regained a sense of self worth that I turned things around. I've been clean for three years and it's not a place I'm ever going back to.

    Busterbuss, your brother needs help. Professional help. You need to diagnose the root cause of the addiction. People can turn to drugs for a variety of reasons but there are reasons why some people become addicted and others don't. People don't need to hit rock bottom regardless of what drinknot drugs has pulled down from the net. It's just effective as people either get a fright or fall over the edge. i've seen both happen. You can treat addicition at any stage. In fact the earlier the better, but you have to understand that YOUR BROTHER MUST WANT to be helped and UNDERSTAND he has a PROBLEM. Otherwise it's a brick wall. A skilled councellor may be able to break through.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 330 xxdilemmaxx
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    SetantaL that is a really harsh post.

    My family HAD to throw my brother out because he was putting our family in danger, I have three younger brothers and sisters and they were watching all of this violent behaviour, they were having nightmares and my little sister was actually physically sick one morning from stress.

    If someone does not want to get help, what exactly are you supposed to do? (no one in Ireland can be forced into rehab) Ruin your whole families life?because I can tell you now that lives are ruined trying to live with an addict.

    Your comment about people only wanting shiny happy people in their homes has made my blood boil, and incidently shows YOU to be condescending. It was the hardest thing my family ever had to do to throw my brother out but it ended up being the only option.

    Maybe as you went through this looking at it from the side of the addict you haven't thought about how it is to live with the addict and have your life taken over with worry and fear....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,798 Mr. Incognito
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    Aye, that's true and I didn't mean to hijack the thread, it's just the callousness of some of the posts has annoyed me. Addicts are people too. Destructive people that need help.

    I'd agree that no-one should be subjected to a life of fear or anxiety.I'm sure there are a lot of people out there that deal with alcohol addiction for whom this is a daily reality.

    All I'm saying is that throwing someone out should be the LAST option, not the FIRST.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 MagicMarker
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    I think it's safe to say that after 8 years of crap this is by far the first option.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 LegacyUser
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    I did not mean to be condenseing and I apologise for that remark. It is a topic close to your heart as it is mine. While you have a perspective from your point of view so do I.

    I am not putting myself as an expert and I also apologise if I came across that way. I told the OP what worked in our situation after years of talking not being an effective method. I'm not going to get into an agrument about it because we have a very different view of it. I tried every single avenue such as the guards so that is how i know they they cannot help.

    However I do agree that they need professional help but trying to convience someone of that is extremely difficult when they won't admit they have a problem such as the OP brother. I am guessing (again using my own experience so I could be mistaken) but I imagine your family tried many avenues to try and convience you to go to rehab before they made that decision.

    Sorry Op that is all the help I can give - as pointed out I am not an expert and do not profess to be one either. I can only tell you what helped in our situation. I would look into support groups for families and they may be able to help you more.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 163 Busterpuss
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    I think it's safe to say that after 8 years of crap this is by far the first option.


    thank you.

    We dont just talk to him setantal, we have given him every option possible to speak up we have asked him out straight does he want to talk about it but he keeps telling us we are the ones with the problem, the he does not have a problem at all.

    My mam has decided she doesnt want to sell up but has agreed that he needs to go, so he has been given a week to find himself a room to rent otherwise my dad will find it for him but my mam wont have him leave until he has somewhere else to live.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,375 kmick
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    Sitting down and talking with a person like this does not work. What I suggest is give him one last chance. Impress how serious you are and if he messes up he knows he is out. This takes the responsibility from you to him. His actions cause reactions. This is not going to be easy but he is affecting the rest of your family. What age is he?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 163 Busterpuss
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    he is 23


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 LegacyUser
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    Well personally you could go for the easy option and kick him out but I don’t thing that’s the best route. If you kick him out that’s him gone to the dogs, he will be killed eventually for borrowing what he cant pay back and you will feel guilty then as you will feel as if you didn’t do enough even if that’s not the case.

    I would try this first and if it doesn't work give up and feck him out then. But at least with this method you can always say you tried your best for him.

    If it was my son I would do the following. I’m pretty sure its not legal but if it saved my sons life I wouldn’t care.

    • Between the family, sit down and talk to him. Explain to him what he has done wrong and explain to him how you perceive the situation. Tell him that the family still love him very much but that he is going to be killed if he continues the way he is going at the moment.
    • Even if he wont admit it himself he will know that you all know exactly what’s wrong, and may start treating you like help and not as an obstacle.
    • Buy a floor safe and keep everything valuable in it, bank cards, cheque books etc.
    • Finally, Tell him he has one last chance and lay down the following rules.
    1. No drink or drugs, if you catch him with drink or drugs again explain that you will kick him out.
    2. Remove his mobile and remove the house phone from anywhere he could access it. If he can’t get in touch with his scumbag friends he won’t be as likely to be able to get into trouble.
    3. Explain to him that to help him get off the drugs etc that he is to stay in the house for 3 weeks. If he needs a doctor or help arrange it when he needs it. If he needs anything a member of the family is to get it. Under no circumstances let him out. Explain that if he leaves, he will be granted a permanent leave and that he can find somewhere else to live.
    4. After 3 weeks or a month get your father to organize a job for him. He is to be brought to interview, not left alone and brought back. If he is successful then he is to be brought to and collected from work for the first 2 months.
    5. When trust builds up again, let out the rope slightly.
    I realize that this will be hugely inconvienient for the family but it seems to me that it is a large family and that if you work together that this could work. I think it’s worth it to save his life.
    He is at the point now that he could start on hard drugs and if this starts then you have lost him altogether.

    Hope this helps. With a bit of luck you could have your brother back in 6 months.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 LegacyUser
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    your family needs to meet without your brother - your parents need to be made fully aware of what your brother is like. maybe your other brothers have witnessed or heard things that you haven't. each person needs to say their piece as to what exactly they know or may have heard your brother is involved with.

    The reason i am saying this is because my aunt was an alcoholic, yes she was in and out of rehab, but sadly she couldn't be saved - she died a year and a half ago and that was with family support around her. This was my dad's youngest sister and as i was closest to her in age i pretty much grew up around it myself with my aunt, my dad and my uncle having drink problems- what i am talking about above is that both myself and my mam heard a lot of talk about my aunt from other sources outside the family about what my aunt got up to outside but were sworn to secrecy not to say anything, which we didn't because we were afraid of the arguements that would usually erupt and believe me there were many - imagine us known more about my aunts life than my dad ( her own brother)
    that's what i mean about the family meeting.

    secondly he's also a target for being trapped in the ugly field of what the dealers want out of a lot of addicts - if he is starting to run up debts he may find himself being given the option of storing drugs for the dealers to pay off these debts which in the end could end up giving your family more grief when the gardai come knocking with search warrants. i'm sure you wouldn't want that either. if this don't happen then as per what happened to him already he could end up getting more than a beating next time.

    have the family meeting together first - come up with options between yourselves before confronting your brother. i wish you and your family good luck!


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