Possible collusion on stars?

Daithio

Was playing a $500 sit and go on stars, and when it got four handed I was almost certain that two players (Donald and Milkiram) at the table were colluding. At one stage 'Donald' was all in with two callers, Milkiram and the other player at the table. When 3 hearts came on the turn, Milkiram bet into the dry sidepot. He had Ace high! Neither of them had a heart of course, and Donald's JJ stood up. They were all in against each other maybe 3 or 4 times for big bets. The antes were now very big, and with two players all in it is very unlikely that myself or the other guy will call without a monster, so each time they were gaining huge amounts. Another time Donald went all in on the button for alot of chips with 10 3! Of course Milkiram who was on the small blind had 99. Another all in confrontation was Q6 v A3, the A3 calling. It was very suspicious anyway, and I've mailed pokerstars support about it. For some reason stars won't send me the hand histories when I request it, I'll post them tomorrow if it comes through.

Daithio

PokerStars Game #3985145801: Tournament #19800642, Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (300/600) - 2006/02/15 - 20:46:01 (ET)
Table '19800642 1' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Donald (1807 in chips)
Seat 3: milkiram2 (6156 in chips)
Seat 4: devland (2952 in chips)
Seat 8: Daithio (2585 in chips)
Donald: posts the ante 50
milkiram2: posts the ante 50
devland: posts the ante 50
Daithio: posts the ante 50
devland: posts small blind 300
Daithio: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Daithio [8c Jc]
Donald: raises 1157 to 1757 and is all-in
milkiram2: calls 1757
devland: folds
Daithio: folds
*** FLOP *** [6c 2h Ks]
*** TURN *** [6c 2h Ks] [3s]
*** RIVER *** [6c 2h Ks 3s] [Th]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Donald: shows [6s Qd] (a pair of Sixes)
milkiram2: shows [As 3d] (a pair of Threes)
Donald collected 4614 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4614 | Rake 0
Board [6c 2h Ks 3s Th]
Seat 1: Donald showed [6s Qd] and won (4614) with a pair of Sixes
Seat 3: milkiram2 (button) showed [As 3d] and lost with a pair of Threes
Seat 4: devland (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: Daithio (big blind) folded before Flop

Daithio

PokerStars Game #3985134199: Tournament #19800642, Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2006/02/15 - 20:45:02 (ET)
Table '19800642 1' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Donald (4660 in chips)
Seat 3: milkiram2 (2853 in chips)
Seat 4: devland (3377 in chips)
Seat 8: Daithio (2610 in chips)
Donald: posts the ante 25
milkiram2: posts the ante 25
devland: posts the ante 25
Daithio: posts the ante 25
milkiram2: posts small blind 200
devland: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Daithio [Ks 4d]
Daithio: folds
Donald: raises 4235 to 4635 and is all-in
milkiram2: calls 2628 and is all-in
devland: folds
Daithio said, "just a really really stupid bet, no matter who is all in, of course you know that"
*** FLOP *** [7c 7d 5s]
devland said, "i fell asleep"
*** TURN *** [7c 7d 5s] [2s]
*** RIVER *** [7c 7d 5s 2s] [3c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
milkiram2: shows [9h 9s] (two pair, Nines and Sevens)
Donald: shows [Th 3h] (two pair, Sevens and Threes)
milkiram2 collected 6156 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6156 | Rake 0
Board [7c 7d 5s 2s 3c]
Seat 1: Donald (button) showed [Th 3h] and lost with two pair, Sevens and Threes
Seat 3: milkiram2 (small blind) showed [9h 9s] and won (6156) with two pair, Nines and Sevens
Seat 4: devland (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: Daithio folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Daithio

PokerStars Game #3985106903: Tournament #19800642, Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2006/02/15 - 20:42:46 (ET)
Table '19800642 1' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Donald (1630 in chips)
Seat 3: milkiram2 (4933 in chips)
Seat 4: devland (4352 in chips)
Seat 8: Daithio (2585 in chips)
Donald: posts the ante 25
milkiram2: posts the ante 25
devland: posts the ante 25
Daithio: posts the ante 25
devland: posts small blind 200
Daithio: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Daithio [Ad 9d]
Donald: raises 1200 to 1600
milkiram2: calls 1600
devland: calls 1400
Daithio: folds
*** FLOP *** [5h Qh Qs]
devland: checks
Donald: checks
milkiram2: checks
*** TURN *** [5h Qh Qs] [4h]
devland: checks
Donald: checks
milkiram2: bets 1200
devland: folds
Donald: calls 5 and is all-in
Daithio said, "i hope you have it milkiram"
*** RIVER *** [5h Qh Qs 4h] [5s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Donald: shows [Jc Jd] (two pair, Queens and Jacks)
milkiram2: shows [As 8s] (two pair, Queens and Fives)
Donald collected 5310 from pot
Daithio said, "OMG"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5310 | Rake 0
Board [5h Qh Qs 4h 5s]
Seat 1: Donald showed [Jc Jd] and won (5310) with two pair, Queens and Jacks
Seat 3: milkiram2 (button) showed [As 8s] and lost with two pair, Queens and Fives
Seat 4: devland (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 8: Daithio (big blind) folded before Flop

kpnuts

Hi Dave! Obviously you've only given us a small flavour of the game in these posts,. Perhaps the overall dynamic throughout the game aroused your suspicions before these particular showdowns?

I have to admit I don't see anything to be too concerned about here. If people are colluding, I would expect them to avoid confrontations with each other rather than clashing repeatedly.

In the first two hands, I would often make exactly the same plays as both players, i.e. push with the Q-hi as short stack and call with the A3 as big stack to try to take out shortie.

Surely if they were colluding, they'd be trying to fatten up the shortie so they both have competitive stacks. Therefore, if they were colluding, I would expect the big stack to be folding the A3 there and cede the blinds to shortie.

In the second hand, I would often make huge raise ON THE BUBBLE with any 2 cards as big stack (yes, even T3) and I am certainly not folding 99 to such an outrageous overbet when I am shortie, so again I may have played that hand exactly as your two opponents did.

The third one is not so clear-cut, but again I can see why he tried to pick up the pot on turn with A-hi though it wouldn't be my style. Just because the stakes are high does not mean the players are necessarily better. Perhaps he just made a silly play rather than a softplay for his "pal"? On Crypto where I play most of my online poker, there is an abundance of poor players in the higher stakes STTs, as you would know from your occasional forays onto Betfair.

Daithio

I looked up their records on the poker database thing though, and between them they've a few hundred thousand in mtts over the last couple of years, so I don't think they're bad players.

I could be being a bit paranoid, and maybe a little pissed off cos I bubbled:mad: , but it definitely seems a little suspicious.

I would have thought the same thing as you about colluding, that it wouldn't be in their interests to be all in against each other, but when the antes are so huge, and they're both all in, it is unlikely that they are going to get called, so whoever wins they are making headway.

kpnuts

maybe so, but in the first hand u cite, surely mikiram (spelling?) would just pass his Ace-hi if he KNOWS he's ahead of his mate and let him have the 600 in the middle (which moves Donald from straggler 4th place to level 3rd place with you) instead of which they clashed when the big stack had the better starting hand, thereby unnecessarily jeopardising Donald's tournament life. The 1,800 approx chips the short stack pushed for would almost always be enough to make the SB and BB pass all but the best starting hands, so he's probably going to move up to 2,400 uncontested if his "mate" doesn't call him. It looks fair to me.

RoundTower

I agree with Ken here. The stacks are very short here, in the first hand they are 3, 4, 5 and 10 big blinds, and there is an ante. I don't see much wrong with pushing with Q6 here as the shortest stack, and calling with A3 when you could easily expect to be ahead.

Same goes for pushing with T3, hope to pick up the 700 in blinds and antes. Especially the big stack pushing on the bubble, he can expect his opponents to fold a huge amount. Maybe you could make a case for folding the 99.

The A8 is a very goofy bet, I suppose you can understand he thinks he may well be ahead of the player who is all in, I think it's a bad play but something you will see from time to time.

If they were colluding, they would hardly have played like this.

Daithio

Yeah you're probably right, I think I was just a bit pissed off to bubble after there were so many all ins with the short stack coming from behind and winning. Eventually went out with AK against 66, all in preflop. Flop came
Q1010, and he still won! LOL

NickyOD

The T-3 hand is odd in my view, as is the bet into the dry side pot but this could easily just be some random retard who doesn't know what he's doing and there are plenty of those even at these stakes. Stars definitely can't justify calling collusion based on these HHs alone