City/Country subsidisation

Ripwave

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
Arguing about population density is irrelevant unless you are supplying BB to 100% of the population

Broadband has nothing to do with it. Less than 10% of the people paying line rental give a damn about broadband.

wexfordman

Just because less than 10% line rental users dont give a dam about BB is not an argument ripwave. Which is one of the points I said in my last post about "Rural/Urban" BB which you never responded to after bringing up the exact same argument when I suggested "incentives" for rural BB.

Do ojnly 10% give a dam because because the other 90% think:-
a) its too expensive,
b) they know nothing about it,
c) they just dont want it period!!!
d) They think them fangled werld woide web thingies are just for city folk!!

Quantify what you are saying, dont just throw facts that are meaningless without quantifying what you are saying. Again, as someone said earlier, where are the facts on this 10% you keep going on about. I'm sure you have them, but dont keep them to yourself, educate us all

Wexfordman

wexfordman

Realistically should an apartment dweller in Cork city centre be asked to subsidise, some living on Achill Island, and if so, to what degree ? Does the person living on Achill Island to a certain extent choose to live there and thus bear the cost of living there. After all, if I choose to live in the centre of Cork, I must pay inflated property prices, trade offs in environmental health and quality of life. Should the person living on Achill not accept his/her trade off's ?

MDR,

I've heard this argument before, and okay, lets look at it this way. I suppose when you do look at it in this light it may be unfair to ask part of the population to subsidise others. But where does it start and where does it end. There is a point in my opinion where subsidisation shoul dbe applied acorss the country for items which are for the "common good". That is vital infrastructure, health, education, and the development of the population as a whole.

So where do we apply this and where not ? Let the man in Achil pay for his own phone line, but dont make him pay for the matter hospital, Dublin Bus and the M50 ?

Wexfordman

Ripwave

Originally posted by wexfordman
Just because less than 10% line rental users dont give a dam about BB is not an argument ripwave.

This thread is about the cost of Line Rental, not the cost of Broadband.

I'm not going to indulge your beal bocht mentality by pretending that you have a point worth arguing about.

MDR

Originally posted by wexfordman
So where do we apply this and where not ? Let the man in Achil pay for his own phone line, but dont make him pay for the matter hospital, Dublin Bus and the M50 ?

I see your point, you will always end up widening it out to arguements along the lines of are 'urban dwellers' subsidising 'rural dwellers' dis-proportionately or vice-versa, and if so to what what degree and what should be done about it. I suppose that what government is about, the fair re-distribution of limited resources, an un-enviable task, I am sure.

I suppose my arguement comes for a deep rooted Irish tribal suspicion (after all, all Irish politics is tribal), that the other guy is getting a better deal ...

dahamsta

Someone build a taller fence round MDR quick!

wexfordman

I'm not going to indulge your beal bocht mentality by pretending that you have a point worth arguing about.

Ripwave, I figured your points were getting a bit weak anyway when you "decided" not to respond to the other thread. Hopefully now we can move onto tackling/debating the real issues Ripwave, rather than this idiotic childish urban/rural debate.

Wexfordman

Ripwave

Originally posted by wexfordman
Hopefully now we can move onto tackling/debating the real issues Ripwave, rather than this idiotic childish urban/rural debate.

If it's so childish, why do you keep it up? (Note that this is yet another thread where the non-Dubliners start slagging off the Dubliners, and then start to complain about urban/rural debates).

When it begins to dawn on you that 30,000 DSL customers out of over a million telephone lines means that BB is currently utterly irrelevant to the overall cost of telecommunications in this country, and to the arguments about the cost of Line Rental to the vast majority of people in the country, then you might be worth having a discussion with. I won't be holding my breath.

MDR

what has made you see things in terms of non-Dubliners versus Dubliners ?
was it a specific comment on this thread, or do you view all discussions at IOFFL/boards in this light ?

wexfordman

I would be very interested (and the first to apologise) to see where and if I ever slagged off Dubliners Ripwave. Please let me know specifically where I have done so ?

Wexfordman

Ripwave

Originally posted by wexfordman
I would be very interested (and the first to apologise) to see where and if I ever slagged off Dubliners Ripwave. Please let me know specifically where I have done so ?

You seem to be very fond of putting words in my mouth, Wexforman. It's not the first time, is it?

I didn't say you, wexforman, slagged off Dubliners. I said that this is yet another thread where a non-Dubliner makes a disparaging comment about Dublin (sanctimonious D4 ****e), and then all of a sudden you're complaining about this urban/rural crap, as if it's the Dubliners who start these spats.

The thread is about whether there's any substance to McRedmonds argument that the cost of maintaining the network in Ireland is significantly higher than the equivalent costs in Sweden and Finland, and whether Mucks "statistics" are as misleading as anything McRedmond trots out.

Moriarty

This is off topic stuff split from this thread.

wexfordman

Oh Dear, Oh Dear Oh Dear, we have now plunged to the depths alright....

Where Ripwave has anyone in this thread slagged off Dubliners as you say:-

(Note that this is yet another thread where the non-Dubliners start slagging off the Dubliners, and then start to complain about urban/rural debates).

Why dont you start responding to some of the posts for a change!!!

Wexfordman

gurramok

Originally posted by wexfordman
So where do we apply this and where not ? Let the man in Achil pay for his own phone line, but dont make him pay for the matter hospital, Dublin Bus and the M50 ?

Wexfordman

Plus cityfolk everywhere should not have to subsidise the costly running of hospitals in rural areas that do not justify the population they serve....Re Hanly report.

Shall we make a list of subsidised services?

wexfordman

Plus cityfolk everywhere should not have to subsidise the costly running of hospitals in rural areas that do not justify the population they serve....Re Hanly report.

Shall we make a list of subsidised services?

I reckon we should adopt the theory "every man for himself", or "Me Fein" even.
When a new house is built anywhere in the country, each householder should have to measure the lenght of cable requred to run from his/her house to the nearest exchange. They should then order the correct length of cable themselves, pay the fee to dig up the road. They should also have to pay for whatever type of port card etc is required on the exchange, any additional telephone poles, and the hourly rate for the 150 odd eircom engineers it'l take to do the job, their union fees and ESOP contributions.

Then, and only then can we ensure that no one else is subsidising their neighbour.


(I bags the first house in the estate with the shortest cable run!!!!!)

Wexfordman

Xian

Apoligies to Humanities regulars - this is a running battle from the IO forum...

Originally posted by wexfordman
When a new house is built anywhere in the country, each householder should have to measure the lenght of cable requred to run from his/her house to the nearest exchange. They should then order the correct length of cable themselves, pay the fee to dig up the road.

Specifically in relation to Loop Length (and nothing to do with other cross-subsidy of urban/rural infrastructure), it is worthwhile noting a collection of statistics in this Survey of loop lengths, including the US, the UK, Germany, France, Greece, Hungary, Poland, Sweden, Norway, Finland (Yes, Ripwave - Scandinavian countries included ), Spain, Italy and Japan. Their conclusion?

"Loop length distribution is similar between most countries"

The Ovum (who am I, lowly lobby group representative that I am, to question their wisdom ) report (can't find it at the mo') commissioned by the ODTR into the delivery of the Govenment's promised 5mbit to the home placed Ireland's loop length distribution between that of the US and the UK.

So, if local loops average out, why shouldn't the cost?

Victor

Originally posted by Xian
So, if local loops average out, why shouldn't the cost?

Is the sales / loop, sales / exchange the same?

Also this post http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=1325932#post1325932 multinationals appear to be the main distortion factor between counties.