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Malaysia Airlines plane shot down in Ukraine near Russian border[Mod warning post#193

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    #422
    S.R.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 667 ✭✭✭S.R.


    firemansam4 wrote: »
    I have little time for those Rags and there sensationalist headlines. But I cant see how anyone can defend the Russian government in all of this. Even before the horrific events happened yesterday they have been up to there necks in stirring trouble in Eastern Ukraine to suit there own agenda, costing countless lives.
    Don't get me wrong though I have little time for Americas false outrage in all of this as well after some of the crimes they have been involved in.

    Specsavers might help you, no?


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    #423
    Sala
    Registered Users Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭Sala


    Stinicker wrote: »
    Thanks for the kind words guys, I've always been a mini aviation fan and this was my first flight on Malaysian and I gave them the benefit of the doubt after MH370.

    I would have too - in fact I had that conversation with someone after MH370 saying it probably statistically unlikely they would have another tragedy. I hope you're ok, at least take some comfort in the fact that you are bringing the only bit of good news to this horrible tragedy


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    #424
    Rob A. Bank
    Registered Users Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭Rob A. Bank


    Irish Steve wrote: »

    The routes over Ukraine were in use until this event, and they were as heavily used as the routes over Ireland to the USA, vast numbers of flights from many countries used this corridor on their way to and from Europe and the Middle East and beyond.

    Apparently a survey of flights to Asia from Europe in the last week found that some airlines had been flying over eastern Ukraine and some had been studiously avoiding the area.

    see middle of this page http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/17/world/europe/maps-of-the-crash-of-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17.html?_r=1

    The British and the French carriers seem to have taken the dangers of flying over this war zone far more seriously than some other carriers.

    It would be very sad indeed if it transpires that decisions based on 'fuel saving' trumped safety considerations in the planning of this unfortunate aircraft's route.


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    #425
    S.R.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 667 ✭✭✭S.R.


    Dublin Red Devil wrote: »
    A MALAYSIAN Airlines passenger plane with 295 people has crashed in Ukraine today after being reportedly shot down by Russian authorities.



    The Boeing 777 went down near the Russian border according to an aviation industry source.

    According to the Interfax News Agency flight MH17 was travelling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur when it was downed. It is not clear if there have been any fatalities.

    The news agency claimed that the Malaysian Airlines passenger plane was shot down by Russian authorities but that has yet to be confirmed.

    A Malaysia Airlines official has confirmed the plane has crashed and they are due to make a statement shortly.

    The company also tweeted to say that they lost contact with MH17 after it took off from Amsterdam and its last known location was over Ukrainian airspace.

    They posted on Twitter: "Malaysia Airlines has lost contact of MH17 from Amsterdam. The last known position was over Ukrainian airspace. More details to follow."

    Where is your evidence that it was shot down by Russian authorities? Plane was over Ukranian airspace but first side you blame is Russian authorities. Very strange logic. And you don't even mention Ukranian authorities which means you are either stupid or lier or both.


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    #426
    S.R.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 667 ✭✭✭S.R.


    Lapin wrote: »
    No they wouldn't.

    Oh Lapin, please don't interrupt lad's dreams.


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    #427
    Noo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Noo


    S.R. wrote: »
    Where is your evidence that it was shot down by Russian authorities? Plane was over Ukranian airspace but first side you blame is Russian authorities. Very strange logic. And you don't even mention Ukranian authorities which means you are either stupid or lier or both.

    isnt there audio of russian separatists boasting about shooting down a ukranian aircraft and then realising it was civilian?


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    #428
    kingshankly
    Registered Users Posts: 7,540 ✭✭✭kingshankly


    S.R. wrote: »
    Where is your evidence that it was shot down by Russian authorities? Plane was over Ukranian airspace but first side you blame is Russian authorities. Very strange logic. And you don't even mention Ukranian authorities which means you are either stupid or lier or both.

    Aah come on all evidence points to the Russians ATM both British and American governments have said so and that's them being diplomatic
    Anyway what is a lier


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    #429
    lord lucan
    Registered Users Posts: 9,575 ✭✭✭lord lucan


    S.R. wrote: »
    Where is your evidence that it was shot down by Russian authorities? Plane was over Ukranian airspace but first side you blame is Russian authorities. Very strange logic. And you don't even mention Ukranian authorities which means you are either stupid or lier or both.

    Attack the post not the poster.


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    #430
    irishgeo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    kingshankly wrote: »
    Aah come on all evidence points to the Russians ATM both British and American governments have said so and that's them being diplomatic
    Anyway what is a lier

    Indeed the spy satellites data pretty much confirm it. Obama is not going to blame the Russians without proof.


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    #431
    S.R.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 667 ✭✭✭S.R.


    Noo wrote: »
    isnt there audio of russian separatists boasting about shooting down a ukranian aircraft and then realising it was civilian?

    First, we don't know for sure is it real audio or fake.
    Second, helloooo, in any case russian separatists ARE NOT russian authorities unless you want to convince me that IRA are Irish authorities.


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    #432
    S.R.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 667 ✭✭✭S.R.


    Lads will you stop "obama said so, americans and british said so" nonsense or I will think that I am talking to preschool kids.

    Americans, british, russians and other authorities have lied so many times in history, especially during conflicts, that to read this kind posts is beyond believe.

    Russians said they have nothing to do with Crimea events. Were they honest? No, they lied.

    Americans and brits said that Saddam had WMD. Were they honest? No, they lied.


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    #433
    Tenger
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,725 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    S.R. wrote: »
    First, we don't know for sure is it real audio or fake.
    Second, helloooo, in any case russian separatists ARE NOT russian authorities unless you want to convince me that IRA are Irish authorities.

    I agree that Russian Separatists =\= Russian Authorities. However the Russian's state that they are 'local militia'. This term can explain the small arms and even RPG's we have seen in their possession.
    So, how do 'local militia' operate a modern sophistcated multi vehicle SAM system?


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    #434
    S.R.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 667 ✭✭✭S.R.


    kingshankly wrote: »
    Aah come on all evidence points to the Russians ATM both British and American governments have said so and that's them being diplomatic
    Anyway what is a lier

    Liar - is it better?


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    #435
    sin_city
    Registered Users Posts: 899 ✭✭✭sin_city


    kingshankly wrote: »
    Dint think they had wifi in mental institutions

    You are oblivious to the propaganda going on at the moment I see and probably assumed the gulf of tonkin was a legit incident for the US to get involved in Vietnam.

    People like you have been around for years....I bet someone like you was bragging about the world being flat 600 years ago too.

    Incapable of critical thinking and condescending of those that do.

    I don't know what happened on this flight but I do not believe the propaganda coming from Western media...anyone that does is a fool...NO PROOF...Thank goodness people stood up to it and prevented airstrikes on Syria last year.


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    #436
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    Well now, hasn't this thread become much more enriched and insightful now that the conspiracy theorists have arrived.


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    #437
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    Twitter has more 'updates' on this including accusations that the credit cards of victims may have been used, that access is on the road only and not on the site by order of whoever the people on site is (rebels or whatever) but the latest is by a crowd called CCTV News saying MH17 "was told to fly lower by Ukrainian air traffic control."

    The Transport Minister also feels the site isn't secured. Tbh, this investigation has been compromised since the start.


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    #438
    Highflyer13
    Closed Accounts Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Highflyer13


    folbotcar wrote: »
    It's always remarkable to see the likes of SR and Sin city emerge from the woodwork to defend the indefensible. It's clear to everyone what happened here and any attempt to cloud the issue by pretending we don't really know what happened here is just asinine.

    But you apparently believe the propaganda coming from the state controlled Russian media.

    We all know what happened. You know what happened. Russian separatists encouraged, supplied, equipped and armed by Russia and it's ultra nationalist and repressive leader; Putin fired a missile at what they thought was a Ukrainian military aircraft. It wasn't and 298 people are dead because of their stupidity and incompetence.

    What is too difficult to understand about that?

    I don't understand why you feel the need to defend Russian actions so much. If you love the place so much go and live there.

    I know the left wing in general have a huge blind spot when it comes to Russia even if it has become a quasi fascist state. But really this is going to far. Next we'll be hearing it was the Americans or maybe the left's perennially favourite bad guy; Israel who shot it down.

    Sometimes the obvious answer is really the truth.

    I've heard all major governments nowadays have huge media teams to get their message across via forums, facebook, twitter etc. Many of the pro Russia messages could be originating from these sources including some posts here. We are living in a different age now where peoples thoughts and opinions can be manipulated by coordinated media messages so suit the agenda of governments and big businesses.I know it sounds crazy but thats the age we are living in.

    Media isn't what it used to be where a story was a story and there were no hidden agendas. You just have to be smart enough not to suck it up and form your own opinions.

    But yes, you're correct in what you say, in this case they are simply defending the indefensible and it was almost certainly brought down by seperatists armed to the teeth by Putin. Thats my opinion.


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    #439
    mbur
    Registered Users Posts: 521 ✭✭✭mbur


    folbotcar wrote: »

    Sometimes the obvious answer is really the truth.
    Indeed. Even Putin, from radio reports I have heard, is not denying that a Separatist or a Russian fired the rocket. He is still 'blaming' the Ukraine and the west but there are no specific denials in his retoric.


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    #440
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    I don't understand why more of a fuss isn't being made of the lack of access to the crash site for investigators. It's all about 'Who did it' and finger pointing, loud statements and the like without actually trying to help investigators get to the bottom of it.


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    #441
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,120 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Either it was Russian separatists with Putin's backing and approval or it was Russian separatists of whom Putin has lost control. Either way it's bad.


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    #442
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    sin_city wrote: »
    Probably because you don't read history books and are incapable of critical thinking.

    Probably. But did you notice the mod warning in the thread title and read post #193?


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    #443
    sin_city
    Registered Users Posts: 899 ✭✭✭sin_city


    Lingua Franca wrote: »
    Probably. But did you notice the mod warning in the thread title and read post #193?

    :(

    I'd gladly take a ban from a forum if I could convince one person to question everything they read in the news media on both sides.


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    #444
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    sin_city wrote: »
    :(

    I'd gladly take a ban from a forum if I could convince one person to question everything they read in the news media on both sides.

    Well, given that you didn't bother reading anything in the news media before coming off with your nonsense post it's highly unlikely that you'll ever convince anyone to do anything. Run along now and let the rest of us get back to discussing this horrible tragedy.


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    #445
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    sin_city wrote: »
    The greatest lesson learnt from history is that people don't learn from history.

    If you read about how wars start you will see this blaming and war mongering going on to the masses.....You are falling for it.

    Why?

    Probably because you don't read history books and are incapable of critical thinking.
    History is written by the victors.


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    #446
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    sin_city wrote: »
    Hmm, and the justification for Afghanistan and Iraq was.....?:eek:

    ..irrelevant?

    In this forum, anyway.


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    #447
    lord lucan
    Registered Users Posts: 9,575 ✭✭✭lord lucan


    Both sin city and S R have been banned for one week for derailing the thread with CT talk, let's get this thread back on track please.


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    #448
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    Couldn't believe when I went down to the shop this morning, the sun newspaper had pictures of some of the souls lost on the plane with the headline "putins victims". We don't even know anything about who did it yet...
    But the propaganda is of course in full flow...


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    #449
    Grandpa Hassan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    mbur wrote: »
    Indeed. Even Putin, from radio reports I have heard, is not denying that a Separatist or a Russian fired the rocket. He is still 'blaming' the Ukraine and the west but there are no specific denials in his retoric.

    This. Exactly. He knows what happened. He'll have satellites focussed on that region 24/7. It's his war after all.

    And he hasn't denied it. It is not like him to let himself get backed into a corner with no response. His silence is deafening. And all of a sudden he has turned very conciliatory....calling for talks and an end to the Ukrainian crisis.

    He knows that his Ukrainian adventure has turned into a disaster for him


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    #450
    Grandpa Hassan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    You seem to know the very inner workings of putins mind and agenda so well... Source please...?

    Er....he has satellites. They would be watching his little war. He hasn't denied anything. And has let other world leaders accuse him. Do you not think he would have denied it if his satellites showed it coming from anywhere other than territory controlled by the separatists?

    His silence in the chorus of accusations is telling. As are his sudden conciliatory statements over the Ukraine yesterday


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    #451
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    Grandpa Hassan wrote: »
    Er....he has satellites. They would be watching his little war. He hasn't denied anything. And has let other works leaders accuse him. Do you not think he would have denied it if his satellites showed it coming from anywhere other than territory controlled by the separatists?

    His silence in the chorus of accusations is telling. As is his sudden conciliatory statements over the Ukraine yesterday

    Well, firstly Russia is not the only country that has satellites, secondly I doubt they're the only country monitoring that region...
    Thirdly there's no actual proof yet.. There's been all sorts said by all sides, let the dust settle before you make up your mind
    Russian defence minister reported as saying their radar picked up activity from a Ukrainian aa battery south of Donetsk
    There's been all sorts of misinfo


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